Agreed David on the possible variations in the tempo but the scant evidence points towards something rather light and not the heavy pulse of later baroque say from the Versailles period. Early baroque was a different world altogether...
Best, Jean-Marie ------ Original Message ------ From: David Rastall Date: 17/12/2014 17:43 To: Martyn Hodgson; Cc: Lute List; Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands On Dec 17, 2014, at 10:28 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > ...are you quite sure that you yourself really intend to say (below) ' .... wi th no dancers present, I suggest that the player is perfectly free to choose wha tever tempo he wishes'? Of course, a modern player can do what they like: but I think the issue raised was more to do with evidence of historical practice - h ence Thomas Walker's reasonable request for early sources. Yes, certainly a reasonable request. And yes, that is what I intended to say. My response to Thomas Walker's request is: evidence of historical practice woul d most likely take the form of evidence gleaned from dancing masters of how the dance itself was to be done. So...go to the dancing masters for that. As to what I intended to say, just exactly what performance tempo meant to a lon e lutenist in the early 17th century I couldn't say, but I'm sure there was plen ty of variety in the ways dance pieces were interpreted in the absence of any st ructured environment involving dancers. I took "the issue raised" to be: early sources as a guide to contemporary performance tempi. Hence the reference to a recording by Bailes. I could be completely wrong here; I'm treading on ground I know very little abo ut. But surely dance music is every bit as ambiguous as, say, ricercars and fan tasias. Or was there actually a set tempo for all sarabandes performed between 1610 and 1640? If so, there's the answer to Thomas Walker's question. My thoug ht is that I'm sure there must have been slight variations...and in the absence of metronome markings even the original sources would have been ambiguous on the subject. Davis R > > Martyn > > > > > From: David Rastall > To: Martyn Hodgson > Cc: Ron Andrico ; Thomas Walker ; Lute List > Sent: Wednesday, 17 December 2014, 14:48 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands > > Ron did not say there was "no relationship whatever" between playing and danci ng a sarabande. He used the word "adapted." Within the parameters of the dance itself, I agree with Ron entirely: "yes" in answer to MH's question. Given wh at we know about the performance of other dances, for example galliards: defini tely "yes." The original question concerned specifically the "French school of 1610-1640" and mentions specifically Ballard. During that period sarabandes wer e frequently danced when an entree was called for. Do you have a specific metro nome marking for playing all of Ballard's Entrees? I hope not. The dancing mas ters of the time characterized the sarabande variously as brisk or slow: it can be danced equally well either way, within the floor-plan description of the dan ce itself. It was also considered "scandalous." Do you have a tempo for "scand alous?" > > There is also some confusion here regarding the execution of sarabandes with o r without dancers present. On stage, with no dancers present, I suggest that th e player is perfectly free to choose whatever tempo he wishes. In his efforts t o preserve an era in which no metronomes existed, I would say that the player is free to play sarabandes as scandalously as he wishes. > > David R > > > > On Dec 17, 2014, at 3:52 AM, Martyn Hodgson > wrote: > > > > Do you really mean to say that the tempo of a dance played on, say, the > > lute has no relationship whatsoever to the tempo at which > > contemporaries actually danced it? > > MH > > __________________________________________________________________ > > > > From: Ron Andrico > > > To: Thomas Walker >; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu " > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 16 December 2014, 20:55 > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: those sarabands > > Hello Thomas: > > A good modernish source of information can be found in D. J. Buch, > > "The > > Influence of the Ballet de cour in the Genesis of the French Baroque > > Suite," Acta Musicologica, Vol. 57, Fasc. 1 (Jan. - Jun., 1985), pp. > > 94-109. The saraband is discussed on page 102. > > Since so much 17th-century lute music consisted of boiled-down > > versions > > of popular dance tunes, it important to know how a particular dance > > worked in it's original context. Then one has to realize that, since > > lutes are and were inaudible when dancer's feet scrape the floor, the > > music is adapted and performed in whatever manner the player wishes. > > RA > >> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:03:13 -0600 > >> To: [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > >> From: [2]twlute...@hotmail.com > >> Subject: [LUTE] those sarabands > >> > >> Greetings all-- > >> I know the sarabande was originally a lively ditty which morphed > > pretty > >> thoroughly by the late 17th century. I have a question about the > >> middle ground, in particular the sarabandes found in Ballard's > > prints > >> from the 1630s, though. Many seem to "work" whether played lively > > or > >> stately, and I know of an old Bailes recording where he positively > >> burns through a sarabande by Mesangeau. I also have played > > sarabands > >> in ensemble works by Jenkins et al that demanded a lively reading. > >> The question is, what textual evidence do we have for expected > > tempi > > of > >> sarabandes of the French school 1610-1640? > >> Thank you kindly, > >> Thomas Walker, Jr. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html /www.cs.dartmouth .edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html> > > -- > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html > > 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html > > 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L10273-6162TMP.html > > > > > > > --
