Actually, most of those pieces were secular although I'm not sure if they were all technically madrigals (in particular, there were a few tenorlieder and Parisian chansons among them). And yes, they did have accidentals and some interesting harmony here and there, but that is only obliquely related to keys or temperaments. If you want some really wild harmony, try Gesualdo. He could be mistaken for a 20th century composer.
FWIW, temperaments on an infinitely variable instrument like a sackbut pose a different set of issues than for lutes or keyboards. As a practical matter, we didn't use meantone, we used something more like just temperament. And we played one Project Zefiro concert using the exact instrumentation specified in the original manuscript (the Lerma MS, from Spain). Explicit instrumentation is a bit unusual, though. Usually you just get Cantus/Altus/... Guy -----Original Message----- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 1:59 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament) It seems you don't play madrigals very often, where you will encounter all kinds of accidentals and weird chords. Here's one famous example going through the circle of fifths: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DnBmMlkuDRfI&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf5f518c003b143027ed308d7120cc47c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636997718352749420&sdata=fjCuF7GYXqaQHkpFnMzk9GgxW7I2NrEn%2FR636Yj03MY%3D&reserved=0 There is ample evidence, that this music was played also with fewer singers and viols, keyboards and/or lutes. Temperament really is an issue here. On 26.07.19 21:22, guy_and_liz Smith wrote: > As a wind player, I've played from or at least looked at several hundred > facsimiles of 16th and early 17th century polyphony (mostly English, German, > Italian, and Flemish) and they were all notated as either zero or one flat > (B flat). Notes were sometimes modified by a sharp or flat accidental, but > not consistently enough that I'd call it a key, as we think of it. I've heard > of pieces from that period with sharps or more than one flat notated on the > staff, but I've never run across one. They can't be very common. > > Guy > > -----Original Message----- > From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Daillie > Sent: Friday, July 26, 2019 11:45 AM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu list > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament) > > Martyn, I understand people's reluctance to spend precious playing time > writing out all their fret calculations for you. There are umpteen > calculators on the net for fret placement (all you need to do is type in the > string length) and all the formulas you might need on David van Ooijen's > website (for example). > > Asking for a specific player's precise numbers seems pointless to me as the > result in terms of temperament will depend on the action of the lute, the > type of strings used, the thickness of frets (to a degree) and the lutenist's > ability to make subtle changes in intonation with the left hand. A fret chart > will help to get the basic placement but then one will need to adjust by ear > to get the essential pure major thirds the piece requires (if one is using > 1/4 comma meantone) along with the colour of chords one wants and and the > precise tuning of key notes. Tastini may be added and if one is playing a set > of pieces, one will probably need to occasionally move a fret or two between > works (one designs the programme to limit these changes). > > It might be useful to remember also that the idea of tonality is > anachronistic when applied to the Renaissance period (when thinking was still > very much modal) and even if we do impose our modern idea of keys on early > pieces, composers rarely venture further than keys with no more than three > sharps or flats. > > Best, > Matthew > > > Le 26 juil. 2019 à 18:49, Martyn Hodgson > <hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> a écrit : > >> Dear Howard, >> Well - until we have a more quantifiable idea of the objective results >> of what people actually hear 'by their ears' we're in a land of >> make-believe where vague unquantifiable assertion carries more >> weight than any scientific considerations. >> It's surely not much to ask of those, who have somehow set their frets >> according to what they perceive as being some particular preferred >> 'meantone', to share the fruits of their work by publishing their >> measurable fret positions. >> As it is it is hard to see what is meant by setting a lute entirely in >> 'meantone' since, without multiple movable frets (as, for example, >> Thompson's experimental guitar) this is simply not physically possible >> since, as also said before, it fails to properly address the core >> issue >> of minor and major semitones on different courses but on the same >> fret. >> As also already remarked: who knows, it might even lead to some >> helpful consensus. >> MH >> >> On Friday, 26 July 2019, 17:11:50 BST, howard posner >> <howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: >> You might want to reread the part about using your ears. "Precise fret >> positions" is an irrelevant concept if you tune by actually listening; >> that's why your repeated demands for numbers are going unanswered. >>> On Jul 26, 2019, at 6:40 AM, Martyn Hodgson >> <[1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >>> Thank you Stephan, >>> Would you kindly share what precise fret positions result when you >> set >>> the >>> 'fifth fret so high that you can still enjoy and work your way >>> through.....' >>> MH >>> >>> On Friday, 26 July 2019, 13:17:31 BST, Stephan Olbertz >>> <[2]stephan.olbe...@web.de> wrote: >>> You wouldn't even need a tuner. Just set a fifth fret so high that >> you >>> can >>> still enjoy and work your way through all the other frets and open >>> courses >>> by means of comparing octaves and unisons. >>> Use strings that are neither too old nor too new. And be sure to >> tune >>> to a >>> fourth based tuning. >>> Regards >>> Stephan >>> >>> Im Auftrag >>> von Roland Hayes >>> Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Juli 2019 13:36 >>> An: Martyn Hodgson; [3][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Steve Ramey >>> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament) >>> Or you could get a meantone tuner and use your ears and not a >>> measuring >>> tape >>> Get [1]Outlook for Android >>> >> __________________________________________________________________ >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> >> [4]https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.cs.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf5f518c003b143027ed308d7120cc47c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636997718352759430&sdata=sq2bO8NpDQdJ%2FcJrBuptol8qDXtKOkQ7rfR6O5GDvCQ%3D&reserved=0 >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 2. mailto:stephan.olbe...@web.de >> 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 4. >> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwww.cs.dartmouth.edu%2F~wbc%2Flute-admin%2Findex.html&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cf5f518c003b143027ed308d7120cc47c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636997718352759430&sdata=sq2bO8NpDQdJ%2FcJrBuptol8qDXtKOkQ7rfR6O5GDvCQ%3D&reserved=0 > > > > >
