I'm guessing that it was an oversight to copy the entire lutelist with this message thread, which shares some awkward ideas (and language). Nevertheless, the personalities involved need to understand that there abides an intelligent segment of participants on the lutelist who will never contribute on the Faceb**k platform. That particular platform is the opposite of how Wayne laid out and maintained the lutelist. The format (which I call MyFace because participants seem to care very little about what others post) is sufficient for trivia and vanity postings, but for musicians who want to promote themselves, Faceb**k actually suppresses distribution of any post that emits even a whiff of commercial potential. The platform is focused on two primary objectives: 1) encouraging posters to reveal more information than they should, 2) monetizing said information in every and any way possible. Not the same as the lutelist, which, thanks to Wayne, has steadfastly embodied the outmoded egalitarian aspects of the internet. It is now a brave new world populated by the greedy and deceptive masquerading as old school free-culture types. Good luck with following up on your ideas, but don't be surprised if a large number of people choose to not participate in your scheme.
RA From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of LSA Editor <lsaq.edi...@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, September 3, 2020 9:56 PM To: LSA President <lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com>; lutelist Net <Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [LUTE] Re: My web site Hi Cathy, I am including Sean about your questions on the lutelist versus FB. Sean looks both them and Nig even more than I do, so can give you a better answer. Here are my sanswers: The lutelist is old-fashioned and it's biggest virtue is that we have access to people like Art Ness and Martin Shepherd to answer questions. It's vibe is a bit more toward the serious lute player, but the people are mostly patient with newbies with questions. It is not the place for promoting you CD or next concert. FB IS the place to promote anything and everything and I think Larry spends time getting rid of the messages that off topic. FB has a younger vibe - or maybe it had a younger vibe when it started. I hear it has been taken over by groups like the LSA and some musicians use it instead of a web page. FB can have pictures and mostly postings are very short. I don't think the lutelist needs much curating, at least not right now. We've had a couple of differences of opinion in the past, but nothing recently. Another big benefit for me is that people access the lutelist using their own emails and I can keep the email address for future contacts. The people there are a big source of additions to my lists of prospective LSA members. I can be the moderator for the lutelist until it's up and running and we find a good person to take the job over. We don't have the problem with the LL of every tom, dick and harry wanting to join it - it's more for the cognisenti. David Smith might be a good moderator - he's been on the LL for years. When I had an orpharion for sale on Wayne's list (and it wasn't selling) Wayne checked in with me to see if it was still for sale after about a year. This seems to me to be a small job that only needs looking at every few months. I think the other part of job is posting new instruments for sale. We would also need to make sure people know where to find both the LL and LFS lists - a few CC blitzes?, since people are used to going to his Dartmouth site and it will be linked on places like the ELS site. Nancy I agree. Now that we are back on solid footing â Whew! We should not piss off people like Wayne after all he has done. We should probably not piss of anyone! â we can proceed. What happens on the lute list that doesn't happen on Facebook or on Danny Shoskes' site? Just curious. What kind of curating does ithe lute list need to work well and be a benefit? There is little point in setting one up if we don't have someone dedicated to keeping it operating properly, not only from the tech standpoint, but just as important, to keep nasty people off. The same question applies to the Lutes for sale listings. At the very least we need someone ready to take posts down when the seller has completed the transaction. I might see if Chris Henriksen can tell me if Bill Good would be good for this kind of thing. He did not want to be a custodian, but maybe this is more to his liking. Maybe Lyn Abissi will know someone. These two were making great strides toward setting up a local chapter here in Boston, but the pandemic knocked that out, as far as I know. At the next Board meeting, hopefully this fall, maybe some of our new Board members will either step up or know someone who could be asked. Feeling relieved that we are on a better track with this. Cathy Catherine Liddell President/Chairman of the Board [uc?id9TJhsqVKmGMNWhuR19WWXJYQU0&export=download] [1]www.lutesocietyofamerica.org On Sep 3, 2020, at 12:33 PM, LSA Editor <[2]lsaq.edi...@gmail.com> wrote: I think we should go ahead and get a new lutelist and For Sale list going so that we can harvest as many people as possible from the old lists ASAP - before they go away. Wayne has not mentioned his archive of all the old discussions on the lutelist and I am pretty sure from the note below he will not be giving them to us or anyone else. I think people do use that, but if he wants to keep it for himself, that's fine. How about if I go ahead and start copying the text and contacts from the For Sale list? Jerry says he can set up a new lute list very quickly. I think both the lutelist and the For Sale list have been around for so long that there will be dead links for years bouncing toward Wayne's old computers. I am less interested in the pictures because David van Edwards has done a lot with pictures for the ELS. I have never looked at his treatises - again it is less interesting. Nancy HI Cathy Thanks for your thoughtful and carefully worded message. I guess I was a little careless in the wording of my original message. My intention was that someone, (perhaps the LSA), could start their own list, using their own software and computers, and announce it on my list when they were set up. Maybe that was what you folks meant, but I got the impression that my input was required, and I am retiring and no longer want to be involved in doing sysadmin work. The same goes for the "lutes for sale" list. I would like to disconnect and turn off my list completely and not leave anything hanging. In this case I would not want any advertisements left on another web site, where the advertisers might not know how to take their ad down. To be blunt, I would not want people to say "Wayne had a great for sale site but something changed and now he isn't doing such a great job anymore". It would be great to the LSA to start its own great "lutes for sale" site. My pages of lute pictures arranged by date were intended to show people how the hand positions changed of the ages, but because I didn't explicitly say that I don't think anyone got the message. Oh well. I am sure that better pictures are available on the web now. The set of treatises on hand position is worth saving, most everything else exists to answer questions that people would email to me. I am backing up my web sites, so nothing will be lost, and I may start another web site in the future. But right now I am retiring, and there are a lot of pieces to sort out and put away, and I apologize if that makes me a little irritable! Wayne On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 8:29 AM LSA President <[3]lutesocietyamericapresid...@gmail.com> wrote: Dear Wayne, The value you have added, the contribution you have made to the lute world with all of the work you have put into the lute list, the links to lute art, the lutes for sale and the TAB program over the years is immeasurable. I suspect thousands have taken advantage of what you have offered. Because of that, when you put out the announcement on the lute list that you'd be retiring and the server would be shut down in a month's time, a certain tidal wave of panic developed. "What will happen to the lute list?" "How will we buy and sell our instruments?" etc. Our minds quickly rushed to come up with a way to save all this material. It all snowballed from there. This is a testimony to how valuable what you have been offereing is seen to be. I will confess that I was affected by the wording at the end of your announcement, "If someone wants to take up running the lute mail listâ¦" because it seemed to open the door to run-away thinking on the part of myself, and other LSA folk, some of whom have contacted you directly, assuming, incorrectly it's now clear, that you were looking for a home for at least some parts of your work. I apologize profusely for this reaction on our part. We, I, should have contacted you directly to ask what you were planning, and to offer to be helpful in some way, rather than assume that of course you would want your work to carry on. We have come off as pushy vultures, and that is ugly and unbecoming of a society that tries to engender good will and cooperation. We fail, sometimes, as we have here, but we do try. It does feel sad to me to read "I am retiring, and my projects will retire with me." Of course that's your choice to make. Do I understand correctly then, that you would have no objection if we followed the leads in your email here, assuming we find the personnel to do so? This would involve, as you describe: 1) setting up a lute list on our site, and announcing on your site that people can migrate over to the one we set up. 2) contacting those with instruments to sell, asking them if they want to continue on our site. It is clear to us that it will make no sense to undertake either of these efforts if we do not have someone to curate them properly. I ask your forgiveness for our having come across like vultures. We were trying to help, and did so badly. All best wishes faithful lute lover! Cathy Catherine Liddell President/Chairman of the Board [uc?id9TJhsqVKmGMNWhuR19WWXJYQU0&export=download] [4]www.lutesocietyofamerica.org On Sep 2, 2020, at 11:48 AM, Wayne Cripps <[5]w...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Dear Everyone I am a bit bothered by what seems to me to be a "grab everything" approach to my various lute related web projects on your parts. I am retiring, and my proje cts will retire with me. The next person's job is to take over with their own p roject, not to copy or clone mine. My projects are mine, they are not LSA proje cts, even if I have been a member of the LSA in the past. - the lute mail list runs on propriatary software. If you would like to start a nd maintain a lute mail list there are many excellent packages out there. [6]gr oups.io seems to be a good one. Once you have it set up you can announce it on my list. - Lutes For Sale - because people who advertise on my lutes for sale page expose themselves to quite a bit of spam, it is important that they can contact someon e (me) to have their information removed as soon as possible. For this reason i t would not be appropriate for you to copy the existing list. If you want to st art your own list you could write to the advertisers on my list and ask them if they would like to advertise on your list. Then they will have a connection wit h you when it comes time to remove their posting. - Lute Tablature - Sarge Gerbode has a very complete site for Renaissance music in tablature, which certainly has all of the same music that my site has, given that he has scraped my site. If I find a demand for my tablature I may start an other site somewhere. You may have technical issues copying the tablature witho ut some effort. - Web pages - the fact is that anyone can copy anything off the web, but I do fe el that my pages are my creation and work, and if someone simply clones it they are not respecting that. (I must say here that Caroline Usher contributed quite a lot in the early days.) Besides, the wayback machine has it all. The LSA di d once have a web site on my computer, but it was their site, and my site is my site. My feeling is also that in efforts like this, people are eager to jump in to th e project, but they don't tend to stick around. The lutes for sale project need s constant maintenance and the mail list requires supervision. Sincerely, Wayne -- Nancy Carlin Administrator & LSA Quarterly General Editor Lute Society of America PO Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 925-686-5800 -- Nancy Carlin Administrator & LSA Quarterly General Editor Lute Society of America PO Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 925-686-5800 -- References 1. 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