On 2/16/06, Tels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Moin, > > the thread has grown a lot and spuried a lot of discussion, but I think > there is still a lot of cross talk and people confusing things. > > Here is a quick summary - it hopefully clears the confusion[7] :-P > > For any module, especially the ones for installing other modules (e.g. > M::B, EUMM, M::I and CPAN) there are three (not nec. distinctive) crowds: > > * A - the original source code author and maintainer.[0] > * D - developers, e.g. other people who want (or must, via dependencies) > use the module in their code. Often includes A, too. > * U - mere users, who just want (or must, see above) to _use_ the > module's functionality. Can also include A and D. > > Fact of the Day: > Any module which wants to replace the current build system (EUMM) must > please[8] all three crowds or it will fail.[1] > > Pleasing U does, among other things, require to solve the chicken-egg > problem. > > What Module::Build claims is that it pleases A and D. From that is infered > that U will also be automatically pleased. That assumption doesn't > hold, tho.[2] Or it is claimed that U is also pleased. > > So, we have critism from U about not being pleased (Adam writes about > this, for instance). To this there are responses along the lines: > > * U might be displeased or not, but D is very pleased[4]: > http://tinyurl.com/du7yc > Bzzzt. Wrong answer. > > * U is pleased: > "M::B based distros are easy for users to build & install." -- > Randy W. Sims - http://tinyurl.com/9aob9 > Bzzzt, wrong answer (or we wouldn't have the discussion!). > > * CYJU (CantYouJustUse)[3] CPAM.pm (or update whatever) - that just works > around the chicken-egg problem by saying "build a nest and the chicken > can lay the egg" - sorry :). It's nice when it works, but doesn't gain > anything when it doesn't[5] because it doesn't solve the underlying > problem. > See for instance: http://tinyurl.com/dltze > > So, Advice of the Day: don't mix the crowds and don't assume everyone is > in the same crowd as you are. And don't sidestep questions, or deny that > the problem exists. :) > > It is also worth noting that the U crowd is much bigger than A+D, which > should be a sure sign that ignoring them spells doom in big red letters. > [6] This doesn't mean you can ignore A and D's pleasing, tho. > > Best wishes, > > Tels > > 0: This includes the maintainer(s), because these are often the same, and > most, if not all problems apply to both of them. > 1: This means that if A+D are pleased, but U not, we fail. > 2: Sure, if A and/or D are so displaesed that they jump from a bridge, you > end up with a big mess and U cannot expect new features and/or delays. > However, if the current solution "works" for most in U, then replacing > it by a new solution doesn't "please" them - they are already happy. So > if we displease U a bit to please the A+D crowd, we also fail. > 3: I just love that. It's a red flag in German IT circles, too: "Einfach > mal nur" or "mal schnell eben", where "eben" == "just" and "schnell" == > fast and "einfach" == simple and "mal" means "this time" or "one > time" (see http://dict.leo.org/?search=mal) > 4: Note: When writing complicated Makefile.PLs - this does apply only to a > subset of D. > 5: Maybe because you have one of the buggy CPAN installations, or are > not connected to the net, or can't run CPAN (like on VMS). Or, or, or. > 6: Don't tell me you are not in the U crowd - in the near future you will > want to use your own code and it might just fail for you to install. > 7: Yves also wrote the same, but in a more long message where it might be > missed: http://tinyurl.com/7o6dd > 8: "please" means: "makes things better, or at least not (much) more worse > for them.
Wow tels! I tried to write a summary like this, but failed to come up with something that abstracts out the issues as well. Thank you very much. PS: I cc'ed the MB and EUMM folks on this. No good summarizing if all the relevent people arent going to see it, but maybe me sending it is for the beter anyway, as im on the MB list so it wont go into moderator purgatory when it comes from me. yves -- perl -Mre=debug -e "/just|another|perl|hacker/"
