Chris translating Lenin for George!
>Lenin's formulations about the defeat of one's own bourgeoisie in the first
>world war were in a certain context
>
>1) that the overall situation was revolutionary (no longer true after 1923
>at the latest)
Very cute Chris! However false to the core. In fact in 1914 it was and imperialist
war. In 1923 we had a victorious workers state in state power.
>
>2) that the war was for the redivision of the imperialist plunder.
>
>
>Neither applies in this case. Point 1) I do not need to argue further.
>
>Point 2) - it is true there is an element of the enlargement of the
>European Union zone of influence over the whole of eastern Europe. But that
>process is essentially peaceful and is not the forcible take-over of
>colonies against their will. Indeed so eager are the countries to join the
>European Union that they will sign up to join NATO first to get
>probationary status as it were. So it is not plunder.
What? It appears that I have missed something. But East Europe was a process of
Internal capitalist counter-revolution supported by imperialism. And in this
transitional phase the "peacefulness" must be lied at the door of decades of Stalinist
misleadership. But to think that jumping under the NATO umbrella is part of a new
world order is ridiculous. In fact the fundamental contradictions between the
imperialist powers jockeying for position before the next confrontation is the bottom
line of all this.
>
>What we are seeing now in NATO is something different from the capitalist
>military alliance confronting the Soviet Bloc. We are seeing an unrivalled
>hegemonic military alliance imposing its will on the world, to the extent
>the world is willing to tolerate it. This is done in the name of the
>morality of human rights. I believe Jim H has said elsewhere that the next
>issue of NLR is to be on the theme of "humanitarian imperialism".
Wanna bet? In fact all reports say this military alliance is splitting at the seams.
What do ya think the German Russian initiative is. Even the right wing media like
"Stratfor" have already claimed that Clinton and his pal Blair have lost the war. It
is the Germans and Russians who have won! The deal will be a stop to the bombings and
and FN occupation of Kosovo with a large Russian contingent..
>
>So bodies of armed men, the core of a world state power, are in formation
>They are constrained not so much by the military power of any rival, but by
>the pressure of public opinion which requires them to get sufficient
>consensus, or at least acquiescence in 19 countries.
What a joke. There are bourgeoisie's and their governments that control those
armies...All with their *own* interests. The pinnacle of bourgeois democracy is
control over the national military..
>
>That is a significant constraint and is one of the reasons why the war has
>taken the form of a massive bombing campaign against Serbia rather than a
>ground war focussed on Kosovo. Hence it can paradoxically be presented as
>both an imperialist war, and a pathetic, disastrous and incompetent war
>that cannot defend the people whom it claimed to defend.
Ridiculous. In fact the air campaign has played into the hands of Germany and not in
the least Russia and its own imperial interests. So Blair and Clinton who think they
have won the war in fact have helped the Germans break out of their shell for the
first time since the last world war. And give the Russians time to consolidate their
own capitalist/imperialist regime!
>
>But George Pennefather seems to me to have too much of a pat formula with
>which to allow "revolutionary communists" to congratulate themselves on
>their moral purity. The point is to actually change the world. And that
>means making choices in situations in which we would not wish to be.
Yeah Chris. Change the world. Who gets the markets and influence in the Balkans.
Nothing has changed at all. This is just the imperialist powers preparing the ground
for the next conflict. Remember Yalta and how that was surpose to change the world and
it was far more based on military occupation of the world then anything we have seen
yet. Well it took only fifty years to wrip up Yalta and now the maps are being redrawn
again. But it is the same fundamental imperialist powers still doing the drawing in
their *own* interests. Minus the SU as a deformed workers state. But capitalist Russia
defending its own imperialist pretentions..
As far as George's thesis it is wrong. This is not and imperialist war (yet) but and
imperialist attack to destroy and redevide the Balkans after the demise of the
Yugoslavian deformed workers state. All the jockeying taking place on the Balkans by
the imperialist powers is preparation for the next round.
In fact the reason we don't have a big war is that Germany is using Jeltsin (at
present) to counter American military domination of the region. They don't want
American military presence in the Balkans as much as the Russians. The Germans elect
to have Russian ground troops because it is impossible for them at present to do it.
They realize that having the Russians their is far better then having the Americans. I
bet Blair understands this stuff.
>
>The agenda of "humanitarian imperialism" is an agenda of bourgeois
>democratic rights and it has a dual character: partly progressive and
>partly reactionary. Its material base is in the triumph of commodity
>exchange whose counterpart is the bourgeois democratic right. The struggle
>of these rights against open flagrant fascistic suppression of those rights
>has been an important lesson of the 20th century. It was a reason why the
>working class of Britain and the US were right to support their capitalist
>class in waging war against Nazi Germany.
This is classical tooting the horn garbage. And open justification for backing
democratic imperialism which is a myth. Especially the United democratic bourgeoisie.
Really Buford. The Germans, the French, the British and Japanese all in one big happy
boat. Who are you kidding with this crap. You are trying to argue the line of least
resistance to the next world war leaning heavily on you dear Tony Blair and his so
called third way which as shown in Yugoslavia is hardly democratic but a blood bath
being rained down on those people while Blair foams at the mouth.
>
>Serbian fascism is already more openly violent and reactionary than German
>fascism was before 1939. It is of course much less powerful. But its
>ability to damage democratic life and cause enormous suffering and division
>between the working classes of the Balkans is great.
Here we have it. For Buford to justify his siding with the bourgeoisie he has to turn
the Yugoslavian Serb population into fascists. A reminder to Jim of his Lone Ranger
perspective and that the instrument of "fascism" can be used by the bourgeoisie in
many ways. It is hardly fascism Buford but capitalist counter-revolution based on
reactionary nationalism which the imperialists themselves created in order to smash
the Yugoslavian deformed workers state.. Take your eyes off the little England scene
Jim!
>
>The KLA should be armed. And Serb fascist forces in Kosovo should be
>neutralised. The present war for the self-determination of the Kosovo
>Albanians, even if they are led by capitalists, is a just war, even if the
>methods by which it is waged are substantially imperialist.
Hugh now you have found another ally! But the point is that the KLA is also a military
instrument used by imperialism not only to kill Serbs but lord it over the Kosovos
also. There program differs none from the Miloseviche's of the world other then they
ain't got the same amount of guns as the Serbs do.
Naturally communists have the position of self determination for the Kosovos until the
NATO imperialist attack made this question subordinate to the attempt by the
imperialists to wrip off Yugoslavia for their own interests
(which do not correspond) by painting up the Milosevich regime as the new Hitlers off
Europe..
>
>More complicated that George's neat formula, but more in conformity with
>actual concrete reality.
The only concrete reality is your own complete capitulation to a democratic
imperialist pipe dream which hardly exists, but foremost to toot the horn for the
Blairites in your own neck of the woods.
>
>And remember George's neat formula for all its purity also means accepting
>the reality of capitalist power relations.
You would not know capitalist power relations if they hit you in the ass Chris. You
are painting up a picture which is utopian of this great united "democratic"
bourgeoisie setting up a brave new world. Counter to this is the Leninist conception
of imperialism as the highest stage of capitalism and periodical world wars to
redevide the spoils. Is is by the way the ultimate Kautskyite pipedream! Which reminds
me Charlie! Was it not you that was talking all this bullshit a while back ....The
grand new era and all that.
The Leninist thesis of imperialism being the highest stage of capitalism is
counterposed to all of this garbage.!
George's mistake is not recognizing the difference between and imperialist war where
all sides for the workers are the enemy foremost their own bourgeoisie. We are not
there yet. This war is fundamentally and attack by various imperialist powers to
destroy Yugoslavia. Hardly for setting up democracy but gaining their own sphere of
influence in the region.
Defending Serbia from imperialist attack is the duty of every communist without one
bit of political support to Milosevich. But we do defend this tiny country the against
imperialist war and the viscious attack now taking place. The main enemy is at home!
Naturally this all is only preparation for the next real imperialist war. Which at
this time neither the Russians or Germans and the Americans are willing to take at
this time. And don't forget the Japanese...
Warm regards
Bob Malecki
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