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I actually do agree that fascists should be shut down, and I think that is a general view among more serious workers. I saw, for example, that one of the fascists who was supposed to speak in Charlotesville was from the SF Bay Area. He was union electrician. Apparently before workers arrived at the site he worked at, somebody had posted leaflets all around with his name and picture. He was greeted on the job by some black workers who made it clear that he would be in danger if he continued working there. He quit. On the other hand, there are the Trump supporters, not all (or even most) of whom are fascists. They are on many jobs and in the unions. As far as I know, there is no thought to chasing them off, even if it were possible. As far as the left in general: I think their problem is that they content themselves with repeating general slogans and attacks on racism, capitalism, what have you, and nothing further. Any actual discussion and debate about ideas is as foreign as talking about skiing to dwellers in the tropics. So, when confronted with the Trumpsters their response is to either ignore them or, if they can, to run them off or worse. John On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 11:00 AM, <marxism-requ...@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > Send Marxism mailing list submissions to > marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/listinfo/marxism > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > marxism-requ...@lists.csbs.utah.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > marxism-ow...@lists.csbs.utah.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Marxism digest..." > > > ******************** POSTING RULES & NOTES ******************** > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > ***************************************************************** > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Fwd: Trump?s Antifa Moment: Police Repression, > Nonviolence, and Movement Building on the Left (Mark Lause) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 12:34:38 -0400 > From: Mark Lause <markala...@gmail.com> > To: Jeffrey Masko <j.alan.ma...@gmail.com> > Cc: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition > <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> > Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Trump?s Antifa Moment: Police Repression, > Nonviolence, and Movement Building on the Left > Message-ID: > <CAGNCEPez0Td03zC6mtd=hWuktj0B0Yar4ZHGTpx2CX4hFCNtVw@mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > There's a lot conflated here, Jeffrey. > > Saying that nobody should trust people who show up with masks at > demonstrations to encourage violence isn't the same as saying that people > should not engage in self-defense. > > You say that you're "not supporting any confrontations with the right or > the State, but certainly it's fair for citizens to protect themselves." I > have no problem with that at all. > > The violence or lack of violence isn't really the question. > > At this point, what encourages the most people to turn out is essential. > Sometimes, assuring people that they will not be subject to right-wing > attacks does that. Sometimes, showing up carry the fight over into the > offensive minimizes the number of people who will involve themselves in a > street fight. > > A lot of contemporary demonstrations are fundamentally more problematic > than they were decades ago, because the organizers just don't take on the > responsibility of marshaling them sufficiently to keep the focus on what > the people turning out want focus to be--as is their democratic right. > Occupy here essentially let itself be taken over by a bunch of crazies > changing all sorts of silly shit right-wring slogans. > > I suspect that if the same people showed up today, there's be nothing to > keep them from mischaracterizing the nature of the march. > > Frankly, if people show up in masks trying to change the character of the > demonstration, they should be invited to cross the street and have a > demonstration of their own. > > Right? > > > On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 12:19 PM, Jeffrey Masko <j.alan.ma...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Hi Mark, > > > > I sent this to you alone, because I cannot deal with any mass of > responses > > right now and I respect your opinion and work as a scholar and I am > asking > > these questions sincerely. > > > > I think we all get why antifa members who black bloc may not be utilzing > > the best tactics for the moment and that the motivations behind many > > members vandalizing property and fighting with the right is suspect and > > counterproductive. Yes, I think many, if not most are really kind of > acting > > out in a juvenile manner and that talks more to the individuality > mentioned > > in the article. So I don't support the kind of actions we normally see in > > demo's, although vandalizing property isn't a big issue for me. > > > > But I wonder why any type of physical reaction from the left is > > disregarded as ineffective in the U.S.? How can a so-called "muscular > left" > > be built? And if it cannot be built, how can a truly revolutionary moment > > arrive? Finally, why is it that commentators can never envision a leftist > > group engaging in militant and sometimes "violent" tactics in the U.S., > but > > can support it when it's not on U.S. soil? > > > > I am not supporting any confrontations with the right or the State, but > > certainly it's fair for citizens to protect themselves? Especially in > rural > > areas where radical leftists are being targeted by Neo-nazi's, KKK > members > > and others by physical attacks and doxing? Is armed revolutionary tactics > > and strategies only available to those in the global south or in places > far > > from western industrial nations? If not, how do we begin with being > labeled > > useful idiots (as the antifa people are commonly called by those with far > > more cultural capital). > > > > I think the tactics of the IWW and other militant unions was successful > in > > part (so much that they needed to be routed by the government and big > > business), so where do we look now to work outside of established protest > > repertoire and party rituals? Some activists, especially working class > > people not drawn into middle class socialist parties, are not going to > > follow middle class leaders and pundits like Chris Hedges and never will. > > What do we tell those not resigned to anti-violence and pacifist > tactics? I > > think of folks I know who have served time in prison and sons and > daughters > > of Black Panthers who are still involved in the struggle, not white > middle > > class kids radicalized at Cal Berkeley. > > > > ?I may post this when I have more time to respond to others, but I don't > > want to post and "ghost" now. I have a lot of class prep and two article > > deadlines to deal with this week. But I'm still not sure I want to get > > anything going as the list is obviously very against antifa types and I > > think generalize about them a bit too much, but I do agree that they are > > usually pretty young, either in age or political sophistication. ? > > > > ?soli- > > > > jeffrey? > > > > > > -- > > > > J.A. Masko > > College of Communications > > Penn State University > > State College, Pa 16801 > > > > "The challenge of modernity is to live without illusions and without > > becoming disillusioned." > > > > Antonio Gramsci. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _________________________________________________________ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > To change your settings: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu//listinfo/marxism > > ------------------------------ > > End of Marxism Digest, Vol 166, Issue 39 > **************************************** > -- "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them." 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