"the handling by many [Canyon Diablo (Camp Verde)]"
Conjectures of course on everyone' part, peppered by our own biases or
cultural assumptions (Would Native Americans even have the concept of
private property vs. community property for such a large relic?), which
is what makes it a great subject for a round table discussion ...
whether meteorites or not, look at Kaaba's Black Stone or Ensisheim as
possibilities, here - from wikipedia, on the Kaaba Black Stone:
"Its physical appearance is that of a fragmented dark rock, polished
smooth by the hands of millions of pilgrims. Islamic tradition holds
that it fell from Heaven to show Adam and Eve where to build an
altar..."
One guy I know who picked up an Allende stone in 1969 had a strange
belief and venerated his find in his own way, all by himself, over the
years. He somehow discovered his pristine stone would readily absorb
(can't remember if it was water or oil, but I think oil), and he
annointed it regularly with some strange fettish idea of that being
good for it; nothing too serious but he believed it enough to do it
regularly for decades. He kept it trophy-mounted on a wooden base on
his desk for many years. If not for a witness, and had it been taken
out of context, I wonder how the best meteoriticist might get the stone
to talk (interpret the result)?
That's an excellent image of the profile of the Camp Verde iron -
thanks for the followup ;-)
Kindest wishes
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: Regine P. <fips_br...@yahoo.de>
To: MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com>; Meteorite-list
<Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Apr 30, 2012 1:17 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
Other images are here:
http://spiralmemo.blogspot.de/p/blog-page.html
and here:
http://spiralmemo.blogspot.de/p/night-at-museum.html
Interesting, the handling by many somehow never occurred to me. I
always
imagined just one person treating the meteorite as one of his own kids.
Perhaps
because it was wrapped in a feather blanket and had its own grave.
----- Ursprüngliche Message -----
Von: MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com>
An: fips_br...@yahoo.de; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
CC:
Gesendet: 16:22 Montag, 30.April 2012
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
Interesting though these are likely three different types of human
weathering (wearing).
w1: Here's a nice picture of the Canyon Diablo (Camp Verde iron)
piece
in which listmembers can appreciate these comments regarding possible
handling (rubbing, perhaps along these line suggested something
similar
to a tradition of receiving sacrament (Eucharist (sp?)) some Mexican
Catholic churches when a transmuted plaster-Jesus is kissed by nearly
everyone attending lined up single file - causing wear).
http://books.google.com/books?id=xCGpmoJl2dgC&pg=PA118
w2: The perceptions of "wear " on an ancient, recovered find are of a
different nature than one with fresh fusion crust and flowlines plus,
over the stony olivine crystals of the Glorieta Mountain (Pojoaque
iron) piece what was claimed to be a thick, possible fresh fusion
crust. But as you say they could show different sorts of handling,
in
a case of a 61 kilos Camp Verde, not likely to have been carried
about!
w3: As for Anoka (Havana beads), as well as the Egyptian stuff,
that's
a different type of forming and "wearing" than Pojoaque and Camp
Verde
- the work in the literature and a poster on the Smithsonian website
a
few years ago pairing some of those to the Anoka meteorite suggests
that the Smithsonian/UCLA/Iowa has access to two of the mentioned
beads.
"We conducted optical microscopy, SEM ele-mental and phase mapping,
electron microprobe analy-ses, LA-ICP-MS and INAA analyses of Havana
and Anoka for comparison."
ref:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2008/pdf/1984.pdf
kindest wishes
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: Regine P. <fips_br...@yahoo.de>
To: MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com>; Meteorite-list
<Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Apr 30, 2012 2:00 am
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
Camp Verde comes to mind, of which one side, "the backbone" as
Laurence
Garvie
calls it, seems to have been rubbed smooth. But taken its weight it
could hardly
have been carried around by a medicine man. Since I have first seen
it
I have
always imagined someone taking it for its deceased child which has
fallen back
from the sky. It has a head, shoulders and a spine. Just a trifle
heavy
perhaps.
----- Ursprüngliche Message -----
Von: MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com>
An: fips_br...@yahoo.de; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
CC:
Gesendet: 1:57 Montag, 30.April 2012
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
& quot; the meteorite had been carried in a medicine bag? It doesn't
sound
implausible, but what are the clues?"
Hi, Regine, Carleton, Mike, Bernd, Jeff, David, Listers;
I would like to draw some attention to the "carried in a medicine
pouch" since Regine asked ;-)
These guys are all with the Great Spirit now, who did the
excavations, so
we're stuck analyzing something that was contermplated in the
1920's
with the baggage of nearly an intervening century.
It is quite possible, like many things, that this medicine pouch
comment is a
comment run amok as usual with meteorites, someone says something,
then it
takes
on a life of its own due to tales getting taller,even among
conservative
scientists, unintentionally, of course, everyone just takes away a
different
idea and they follow natural 'election'.
The original comment seems to be that it was carried as
"medicine",
rather than in a medicine pouch. While this seems to be a minor
difference,
it's not. One involves an inference and the other is more of an
observation.
Nininger later (1952) expounds on the comment when discussing
Native
American
meteorite collectors and the medicine pounch has by then become
alive
in its
own, through no one's fault.
The concept of "medicine" doesn't necessarily require a
pouch, and
may not even be in the hands of a medicine man, why, it just as
well
could
have
been a chief, or a brave warrior ... and could just as well be from
a
great
deal
of handling. The observation was simply that at least three of the
protuberances above the regmaglypts depressions were highly worn
from
what was
very plausibly a soft material. To make the leap to call it a
pouch,
or just
a
lot of hands ... is a good philosophical theme for a room full of
meteorite
collectors and archeaologists without Regine's magic powder burns
evidence.
But the fact was, the wear was supposedly caused from a lot of
handling or
rubbing. That said, ablation is a strange master and it would be
verrrrry
interesting to revisit this "wear" which formed the basis of the
original archaeological comments.
What is for sure, apparently is that it was found inside the
pottery
and that
in
turn in a burial ground. So there are some Spirits floating around
it.
Perhaps
Man & Impact Ed has a theory, it's his ballywick. But we do need
to
see
it. Carleton kindly mentions that a couple of grams were at ASU,
that makes
sense that Nininger would take some. My fear is that calling this
pivotal
iron
"just" another synonym does no good to science if it is lost for
inspection. Apparently the piece weighed originally 3 ounces
(about
85 g),
and
it was a complete individual subject to what was speculated to be a
violent
history, that is, after Nininger figured out how Glorieta ripped
apart along
of
course with Kunz.
But not only is the mystery with the original piece, this piece is
historical
in
that it was the first specimen that was used as a keystone to pair
a
pallasite
fall to a siderite fall ... and help create the need to have a
single
name
with
synonyms ... how ironic, errr... palladoxical ;-)
Kindest wishes
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: Regine P. <fips_br...@yahoo.de>
To: MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com>; bernd.pauli
<bernd.pa...@paulinet.de>; meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Sun, Apr 29, 2012 7:04 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
Hi Doug, Bernd and all,
I too would like to know where this one is being kept. What baffles
me though,
how does one get to the conclusion the meteorite had been carried
in
a
medicine
bag? It doesn't sound implausible, but what are the clues? Magic
powder
topping?
Is there any further info?
Regine
----- Ursprüngliche Message -----
Von: MexicoDoug <mexicod...@aim.com>
An: bernd.pa...@paulinet.de; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
CC:
Gesendet: 23:54 Sonntag, 29.April 2012
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
Hi Listers,
Paired - quite likely - It has a much more interesting history
than
to be
lumped
as a synonym and IMO value as a named iron in its own right:
This particular iron showed a lot of evidence of wear from human
handling and
Nininger supported Mera's suggestion that it was carried in a
medicine pouch
in Pojoaque, which makes a triangle geographically, roughly, with
Santa Fe,
Glorieta, Mountain locality and Pojoaque pueble. According to the
circumstances
of the fine, it was found inside some old pottery during
excavations
at the
Pueblo, i.e., protected, and exhibited beautiful flow lines and
notable bluish
fresh fusion crust, indicating it was a reasonable possibility
that
whoever
found it saw it fall. As it was found during excavations, it
raises
the
possibility of using this to date the Glorieta Mountain fall.
It would be nice to know where this meteorite is now. Did it
make
it
to New
Mexico's collection? Nininger, in 1931, saw it in Santa Fe,
specifically in
the "Department of Anthropology", where Mera may have been
working.
But someone else needs to sleuth a bit further from here because I
sure
don't know where it is now, and it would be great to see it in its
present
condition ;-), as it was cut up a bit because Nininger and others
used it to
argue that Glorieta Mountain wasn't a siderite, but a
sidero-pallasite
combination as well as consolidate some of the names Bernd lists
...
I think
the
paper was 1940.
Definitely a specimen with a very special, if not sacred, history
...
Kindest wishes
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: Bernd V. Pauli <bernd.pa...@paulinet.de>
To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Sun, Apr 29, 2012 5:03 pm
Subject: [meteorite-list] Pojoaque Pallisite
Hello Jeff, Mike, David and List,
David wrote: "It is indeed the synonym for Glorieta"
... and only one out of several others:
Albuquerque
Canoncito
Glorieta
Pojoaque
Rio Arriba
Santa Fe
Santa Fe County
Trinity County
Cheers,
Bernd
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