On Thu, 2007-05-17 at 13:47 -0400, Manu Sporny wrote: > Martin McEvoy wrote: > > On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 14:00 -0400, Manu Sporny wrote: > >>> "using brief, descriptive class names" > >> hset is a brief descriptive class name, isn't it? > > > > Yes hSet is descriptive > > > > my trouble lies in what comes after, you are asking users to invent > > their own class after that ie, hset.whateveralbum.whatever_track, how do > > you know that I won't name my class hset.xtre.wefutr or something > > equally meaningless, you wont know what this means and neither will I, > > what you propose only has meaning to the user, and no simple naming > > convention. > > Ahh, I finally understand your point (forgive my thick skull). You are > worried that while 'hset' is brief and descriptive, 'hset.stre.wefutr' > is neither brief, nor descriptive. > > I agree with you - only the person authoring the text that comes after > hset knows what the name truly means. Should we assume the worst and > expect people to put in seemingly jumbled text after 'hset'? Or should > we expect them to put in something meaningful?
I would hope that all future adopters of this Design Pattern / Microformat will use meaningful descriptions, but...(there's always a but eh!) we *are* talking about a potential market of the same mainstream developers that have a hard time even getting their web-pages to Validate right? > > Why is being able to specify free form hierarchical identification a bad > thing? We don't have a problem with people doing it for the 'id' > attribute. How is this any different? The person viewing the web page > and the Microformats never sees this data. The computer, which is > parsing the semantic data, doesn't care if the text following 'hset' > makes sense or not. Remember, it is okay to give hints to the machine > (abbr-design-pattern). > > At the end of the day, what is important is that a semantic relationship > has been defined and the solution works for the grouping problem > description and is compatible with all other Microformats. > > > Ok your example says > > > > hset.foo > > hset.foo.bar > > hset.foo.baz > > > > my example would be > > > > <span class="hset">Foo</span> > > <span class="hset-member">bar</span> > > <span class="hset-member">baz</span> > > > > hset => foo > > hset-member => bar > > hset-member => baz > > > > does this say the same thing? > > > > I know there is more mark up but it does use simple class names that > > every one can understand > > I agree, it does do the same thing. I'd prefer doing something like what > you're suggesting. The only problem that would need to be solved is how > we support sparse grouping with that approach? We can't, can we? > > > hset.foo.baz > > > > looks like a string for a machine, server-side, not client-side > > > > ie; in Java > > > > System.out.println("abc"); > > > > http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/lang/String.html > > You are exactly right - it is a string for a machine. So are the > contents of the 'title' attribute in the datetime-abbr-pattern: > > <span class="dtstart" title="20070312T1700-06"> > March 12, 2007 at 5 PM, Central Standard Time > </span> Right now the penny drops Its a compact microformat? or hSet if you like? as a design pattern it can be used like this hset.dtstart.20070312T1700-06 to group dates in a meaningful way, you are also putting the machine data where it belongs, not in a user space ie *title here isn't for people but a machine* <abbr class="dtstart" title="20070312T1700-06"> *title here is for a human* <abbr class="hset.dtstart.20070312T1700-06" title="March the 12th, 2007 at 5 PM, Central Standard Time"> 12th March 2007 5.00PM (CST)</abbr> > > > but then who am I to judge. > > Somebody that cares about this stuff! Without rigorous vetting of these > ideas, Microformats would surely fail - so thank you for making sure > that what we're doing is the right thing to do. The last thing any of us > want is to cause damage to all the hard work that everybody has done to > get us this far. Well Manu after all our discussions on and off the group, I get it now ;) I think hSet will solve many issues when used like this, and above all it puts machine data where it belongs. ... Martin > > -- manu > _______________________________________________ > microformats-new mailing list > microformats-new@microformats.org > http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-new
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