Thanks to all, Javier, Vincent, William, Joanna and Dr. Rohlf, my dilemma occurred because some botanists (I work with mammal skulls) have asked me to help them evaluate leaf variability of two tree species from different localities. So, variability within and among individual trees and species.
In which user friendly program (like MorphoJ ☺) can I analyse outline data and visualize variability? Thank you again, Tina From: Joanna Lenarczyk [mailto:j.kowal...@botany.pl] Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 10:21 AM To: Tina Klenovšek Subject: Re: [MORPHMET] digitizing very variable leaves Hello Tina, You can try a program which does not need landmarks: http://www.eletel.p.lodz.pl/pms/SoftwareQmazda.html I hope it will help you :) I have not tried it yet by myself, but it can be useful when you cannot or do not want use landmarks :) Best, Joanna 2018-03-15 8:40 GMT+01:00 <f.james.ro...@stonybrook.edu<mailto:f.james.ro...@stonybrook.edu>>: One could do that computationally but I would worry about the homology it might imply for such variable leaf shapes. You might try it and then check to see if, for example, a lobe on one leaf might be 20% of the linear distance around the outline but in another it might be 30% of the way around. In such a case the lobe on one leaf would effectively be treated as homologous to a location between lobes on another leaf. If so, does that make biological sense for your study? If simple leaves were also included the implied homology of a point along its outline to that of one of the lobed leaves might be pretty arbitrary. Would be better if one knew something about the development of these leaves (which I do not!) and used that knowledge. An alternative would be to use outline methods to group shapes for the purpose of say identification with little implication that groups need be biologically meaningful. Sorry to be rather negative but I find highly variable leaf shapes difficult to put in a simple standard framework. Perhaps others will have better suggestions. ____________________________________________ F. James Rohlf, Distinguished Professor, Emeritus. Ecology & Evolution Research Professor, Anthropology Stony Brook University From: Tina Klenovšek <tina.klenov...@um.si<mailto:tina.klenov...@um.si>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 12:28 AM To: f.james.rohlf <f.james.ro...@stonybrook.edu<mailto:f.james.ro...@stonybrook.edu>> Cc: morphmet@morphometrics.org<mailto:morphmet@morphometrics.org> Subject: RE: [MORPHMET] digitizing very variable leaves Thanks to everyone who answered. Dear Dr. Rohlf, I assumed great variability would be a problem. I was thinking the best way of digitizing would be to draw a curve on the outline of each leaf (simple and lobed leaves). Resample curves by length with approx. 40 landmarks. Then append curves to landmarks. Two landmarks, the leaf tip and base, would be fixed others could be defined as semi-landmarks. Is this sensible? Alternatively, we could analyse simple and lobed leaves separately. Thank you a lot for your help. Tina From: f.james.rohlf [mailto:f.james.ro...@stonybrook.edu] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 3:59 AM To: Tina Klenovšek Subject: Re: [MORPHMET] digitizing very variable leaves An assumption of the usual GMM methods is that shape variation is "small". I think these leaves exceed this quite a bit! Another problem is landmarks. How to match leaves with and without lobes? __________________ F. James Rohlf, Distinguished Prof. Emeritus Dept. Anthropology and Ecology & Evolution Stonybrook University -------- Original message -------- From: 'Tina Klenovšek' via MORPHMET <morphmet@morphometrics.org<mailto:morphmet@morphometrics.org>> Date: 3/12/18 10:56 AM (GMT-10:00) To: morphmet@morphometrics.org<mailto:morphmet@morphometrics.org> Subject: [MORPHMET] digitizing very variable leaves Hello everyone, we would like to digitize tree leaves that are very variable (from simple oval to strongly lobed on one tree). 1.) I am wondering if TpsDig can do some kind of automatic digitizing like the LeafAnalyser software: http://www.plant-image-analysis.org/software/leaf-gp, which evenly distributes a defined number of landmarks on the leaf outline... LeafAnalyser does not seem flexible or precise enough. Or I can’t use it properly. Any experience? 2.) Is it possible/sensible to put objects that are so differently shaped (photos attached) into the same group or is it better to analyse simple and lobed leaves separately? I apologize if similar questions have been already answered... Kind regards, Tina Napaka! Ime datoteke ni navedeno. doc. dr. Tina Klenovšek, koordinatorica doktorskega študijskega programa Ekološke znanosti Univerza v Mariboru | University of Maribor Fakulteta za naravoslovje in matematiko Faculty of Natural Sciences and Mathematics Koroška cesta 160<https://maps.google.com/?q=Koro%C5%A1ka+cesta+160&entry=gmail&source=g>, 2000 Maribor, Slovenija T: +386 41 808 366 E: tina.klenov...@um.si<mailto:ime.prii...@um.si>, www.fnm.um.si<http://www.fnm.uni-mb.si> -- MORPHMET may be accessed via its webpage at http://www.morphometrics.org --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MORPHMET" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to morphmet+unsubscr...@morphometrics.org<mailto:morphmet+unsubscr...@morphometrics.org>. -- Joanna Lenarczyk Zakład Fykologii Instytut Botaniki im. W. Szafera Polskiej Akademii Nauk ul. Lubicz 46, 31-512 Kraków tel. 12 42 41 876 Department of Phycology W. Szafer Institute of Botany, Polish Academy of Sciences Lubicz 46, PL-31-512 Cracow phone +48 12 42 41 876 e-mail: j.lenarc...@botany.pl<mailto:j.lenarc...@botany.pl> -- MORPHMET may be accessed via its webpage at http://www.morphometrics.org --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MORPHMET" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to morphmet+unsubscr...@morphometrics.org.
