-----Original Message----- From: Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Terça-feira, 21 de Dezembro de 1999 21:59 Subject: Re: Odp: Indian Navy News & Pirates > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jens Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: Tuesday, 21 December 1999 9:34 >Subject: Re: Odp: Indian Navy News & Pirates > > >> >>At 04:01 AM 12/18/99 +0100, you wrote: >> >>>Od: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>Temat: Indian Navy News & Pirates >>> >>> >>> >Anyone know if the Indians actually know how to use their submarines? >>> >>>I'd rather say - YES. They know their equipment and the know WHERE to >>>use >>>them. Kilos (of all projects) are now the best conventionally powered >>>subs >>>in the world, not only mention "largest". Just take a look at the > >This is a big wrap! Kilos being the best conventional subs in the world. >I'm >not sure on this, what about: > >Dutch Walrus (endurance 60 days) >German Type 209/1200 (40 days endurance) Argentina, Colombia >German Type 209/1300 (45 days) Ecuador, Indonesia >German Type 209/1400 (50 days) Brazil, Chile >German Type 209/1500 (50 days) India >German TR-1700 (70 day endurance, 25 knots submerged!) >German Type 800 (60 days) Israel >Swedish Gotland (supposedly 14 days@5 knots on AIP alone) >UK Oberon as operated by RAN, etc (56 days endurance) >Japan Oyashio and Harushio class (no info) > >Kilo (45 days) > >Soon to enter service (but obviously not currently best in the world): > >Canadian Victoria (ex-UK Upholder) >German Type 212 (supposedly 30 days@4 knots on fuel cell AIP, >Australian Collins (70day endurance. Yes, when they get sorted! They >currently meet specifications at 'patrol quiet' speeds, its flow noise >at >high speeds that is the issue. The bigger problems are the combat >system. >The last two Collins will receive new sonar processing, and should be >equivalent to updated Oberon FC. From 2005-06 a new combat system is >due, >10 >years after HMAS Collins first sailed! Okay, not currently part of the >list.) > >The unanswerable issue is quality of sonars and to a certain degree >weapons. > >>>"authonomy" - over 40 days of operations. If i could choose, i'll take >>>Kilos >>>for blue water and 209/1200 for brown water. >>>Cheers >>>Jarek Zgoda > > >A coastal sub would be Norwegian Type 207 (524 t subm with no torpedo >reloads). The idea of coastal diesel subs seems to come from the almost >hatred the USN has for diesel boats. For blue water ops long range >sonars >(probably including towed arrays) along with reloads for the tubes, >sufficient fuel/supplies for sustained sailing (even the small Type 209s >have 40 days endurance), and decent weapons. > >>Jarek: >>I have to disagree on your 209 classification. The 209 is a later model >>than the 206/206A which I served on. The 206 have an operational seatime >>of > >I vaguely remember an article on Indian subs ops from years ago. The >plan >had been to use the supposedly noiser Kilos as anti-surface units and >the >superior Type 209 as ASW. When the two were compared the Kilos were >found >to >be quiet enough for ASW ops also (note: I didn't say the Kilo was >quieter >than the Type 209). > >Recent reports have the 877 series (can anyone tell me the 'real' >sub-variants. No two sources agree) as overrated. In NATO exercises the >Polish Kilo had a few surprises (we can assume NATO has experience with >the >Kilo class). The supposedly vastly superior 636 is currently believed to >have only minor improvements, the Russian 4B variant may be quieter, >however. > >I see a pattern emerging: NATO hears of new Soviet/Russian threat, NATO >panics and over rates the threat, info surfaces and the system is found >to >be okay, NATO rubbishes the threat as it wasn't as good as first >thought. >(MiG-25, MiG-29, Su-27, Kilo, etc, etc) > >AFAIK all diesel subs are very quiet on battery, current US thinking is >run >blanket coverage with aerial search radars to prevent the boat from >snorting. The Iranian Kilo threat is said to be a 48 hour ASW exercise >with >live weapons (with USN ASW assests being run down?). > >>42 days without replenishment with food/water the limiting factors since >>they cannot produce fresh water by themself. Thus, the Kilos don't have >>an > >I know at least the RAN Oberons and Collins can produce freah water. >Daily >showers for submariners! > >>advantage with regards to "autonomy". Also, the 209 are definitely >>blue-water capable. Although 206/206A/209 are all designed for >>brown-water >>areas, they all hold well in blue-water scenarios. 209s are delivered >>from >>the German shipyards to their respective countries by sea with their own >>crew (no shipyard crew). That's from Germany all the way to Korea, for >>example. Also, we did a lot of training in the North Atlantic, some of >>the >>boats even participated in exercises in the Caribbean. Thus, don't >>underestimate the 209 and always be agraind of diesel subs. ;-) >> >>Jens > > >As above the Type 209 designation covers plenty of models. From 1970s to >the >new future with South Africa. The 1990s South Korean boats are said to >be >the quietest yet, so obviously the different models have different fit. > >Peter Grining > > ============================================== Lista naval Para sair desta lista mande mensagem para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] sem nada no Subject e com o comando a seguir no corpo da msg: "unsubscribe naval" (sem aspas) ==============================================
