On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 08:29 AM, Rickard Öberg wrote:
Rickard, I had already read this in the list archive (since I unsubscribed) and I had resolved not to answer. But I've now changed my mind.Here you go.
I mean, you forward this stuff to me by email (knowing I unsubscribed) and I have to suppose you really want me to respond. So, I'll give you what you want. <sigh>
I'm going to make my points quite calmly and politely and then I think we're done with it.
Well, I'm sorry. The above is incorrect and really, just plain dishonest. For every one of my posts there was some other guy writing an intervening post. To refer to this as a "rant" of mine that went on and on is a completely dishonest representation of what happened. It was a debate in which other people participated and there were intervening posts of theirs in between mine.-- Rickard Öberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] SenselogicGot blog? I do. http://dreambean.com From: Rickard ÷berg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:45:37 PM Europe/Madrid To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: (Offtopic) Freemarker WAS Using SiteMesh for the UI tags I'll bite. Just this once. Jonathan Revusky wrote:Just re-read it, and it re-confirmed my assesment of what happened, and my comments still stand.I think you should go read it too, Rickard. Your comments here do not seem to be based on any grasp of what really happened.Absolutely, go read it.
Anybody who reads the thread and was not born yesterday will see that the Velocity people started all the personal attacks, all the ad hominem and character assastination stuff against me specifically because they could not deal with me in legitimate debate. That you, Rickard, cannnot see through this, does not speak terribly well for you.
Okidoki.I am specifically saying that this is where the thread starts. Somebody starts talking about comparing monetary value and I take the opportunity to point out that FreeMarker has the features they want. The discussion continues where a bunch of the Velocity people decide to debate "philosophically" the desirability of decimal numbers and such.What I meant was that it was a pretty good start of the rant, that went on and on and on and on.
A "rant" is a monologue.
That reminds me of something. I remember that, once (and this was years back) somebody accused me of "single-handedly perpetuating a flame-war". That flabbergasted me. I wondered how the hell anybody could "single-handedly" perpetuate a flame-war. Hell, I might have been partly to blame, probably was, I'm no saint, but I mean, there always has to be more than one person participating to keep the thing going... to accuse somebody of single-handedly perpetutating a flame-war....
Well, Rickard, my expectations of you in this matter are quite low, so that doesn't disappoint me. Though, at the end of this message, I am going to outline some minimal expectations, that I do hope you can satisfy.I really think you ought to read the thread as well. I think that if you do, you will discover, to your chagrin, that my characterization of it is correct, and that, in fact, you owe me an apology.
I owe you zilch.
The above is a complete and utter mischaracterization. My posts were on-topic and factual.You went in there with a specific agenda (which you stated yourself after a while), and from that point of view you thought that "I have the right to say whatever I want, wherever I want, whenever I want, no matter what anyone else thinks",What an eloquant way to say "I have the right to say whatever I want, wherever I want, whenever I want, no matter what anyone else thinks".Hold on a second. I *never* stated on the Velocity list that Velocity was a "monumentally mediocre piece of work". I just stated it here. On the Velocity list, I restricted myself to pointing out that features (such as decimal support among other things) that Velocity users were lobbying for, were already present in FreeMarker. That has its obnoxious side, but it is completely fair comment and I do not believe that you can really maintain otherwise.
It's really fine up until the very last point. Your above reasoning would allow "us" to go to the Struts list to explain to them what a monumentally mediocre piece of work they have,
Look, this is ridiculous really. If some people want to discuss on a public mailing list what the best way to bang a nail into a piece of wood using a rock is, there enters a great temptation to inform the people there of the existence of this thing called a hammer. If you need to manipulate and format monetary or other decimal values correctly, it makes sense to use a template engine that supports this feature. As opposed to implementing some kludgy workaround and/or lobbying the developers of the other template engine to implement the feature you need -- when they've already refused to do so various times.
That a bunch of cave-man philosophers then want to engage you in debate over the proper philosophy behind banging a nail into a piece of wood, and they say the hammer is unnecessary, and point out all these great ways to use the rock instead... well... that's their right. But then, when you demolish the surreal, ridiculous arguments they are presenting, they do not really have much of a grievance.
I mean, okay, of course, they get angry when you point out that the emperor is wearing no clothes... but... hey... that's par for the course. C'mon... And hell... they deserve it... all this vacuous claptrap about how they don't support whatever feature because it's not "proper MVC" and so on... it's right and proper to point out the vacuousness of that stuff. (IMO)
which is a point where we disagree and is the "attitude" that I objected to. I wouldn't want Struts people strutting around here like you did, and neither would I want WW folks ranting on the Struts lists. It's just bad taste.First of all, I don't care what you or anybody else does on a Struts list frankly. But I can say that if you write posts there that are on-topic in the thread *and* technically accurate that mention webwork as an alternative to Struts, you will not hear any complaints from me. I would consider it fair game.
As for it being in bad taste, that's pretty subjective. It could well be. And I already conceded that my behavior did have its obnoxious side.
But really, my telling the Velocity users who want decimal number support that another tool already has the feature they want is basically fair comment. All of this demonization of me as a consequence is way over the top. And, look, I think most people know that all the personal attacks on me and the attempts to portray me as a raving lunatic and otherwise discredit me occurred because the people had no *legitimate* riposte to what I was saying. So they resorted to ad hominem. I mean, c'mon, it's obvious....
In any case, your basic stance is fundamentally nonsensical. If you wanted to know what my behavior would be like on this list if FreeMarker became an OS project, the thing to look at would be my behavior on the FreeMarker list, *not* on the Velocity list. Furthermore, your characterization of my behavior on the Velocity list (though utterly irrelevant anyway) is also inaccurate. The other people invariably commenced the ad hominem attacks on me because they could not deal with me in legitimate technical debate. This is not a matter of legitimate controversy. It is what a reading of the electronic record will show.And again, those who are interested in understanding this story should go read it. It's quite illuminating, especially since we seem to see completely different things.
Hey, I was the guy who provided the link. :-)
Huh? What's your point? I didn't post any of that on the WW list. Of course, you don't care. You're getting kind of incoherent here. I think you need a break from this.BTW, in terms of my assessment of Velocity's quality as a piece of work, I pretty much completely pulled my punches there. I mean, just as one example, look at the way Velocity handles macro parameters. It passes them in as strings, that are reparsed and evaluated every time the parameter is referenced in the macro. I simply pointed out that features that people had been lobbying unsuccessfully for in Velocity for god-knows-how-long were available in FreeMarker.That's probably an interesting point, but this is the WW list. We don't really care.
Look, the whole business of my "ranting" and all of this terminology to portray me as a raving lunatic and thus discredit me personally... all of that is simply not borne out by actually looking at what happened. That is why I provided the link. I know full well that it isn't the most flattering thing to me and probably does show up some of my personality defects. What I find comforting about it, though, is that the behavior of the other people there was pretty much invariably worse than my own.which get the level of usage and attention that it does because it is a part of apache.org. Factually correct (one could argue), but oh so irrelevant.Well, as for "agreeing to disagree", with the overtones of political correctness and relativism, well... sorry... I don't just agree to disagree with you on this matter. I am stating that your characterization of what happened is FALSE. And I have backed up the assertion by pointing to the exchange in question that anybody can read.
I guess we will just have to agree on disagreeing on this point.
Or so you think. Most amusing.
Well, to anybody who actually reads the thread... the attempts to bait me and so on... very specifically because they could not deal with the points I was making in a legitimate on-topic debate...Note that the reading of it is not particularly flattering to me. It shows my ability to push people's buttons for fun somewhat. BUT the behavior of the other people in the thread was typically far worse than mine. That much is pretty clear.
To you.
Which is not the point. The point is that you thought that it gave you the right to be a prick.In other words, if someone else is a prick you have the right to be a prick too. Interesting logic, and again I guess we will just have to agree on disagreeing on this point.
I was simply stating that they were not very well placed to complain.
Well, that's subjective too. Certainly, some of the things I wrote made people very angry, but really... if you look at it cold-bloodedly, if I make statements that are factual and on-topic and this causes people to get enraged, it could be because the other people have some kind of problem.
Well, in the above, you're really just ranting. *Obviously* everybody can look at the evidence and the various arguments and come to their own conclusion. Now, you're trying to portray me as some kind of fascist who wants to impose his ideas on others. Yet, you are the one saying that I don't have a right to say things that are factually correct and on-topic on a public mailing list. Who's the fascist?But again, I repeat, that if people are asking about features on a Velocity list that are present in FreeMarker, I see *no* problem with telling them that the features they want are present in FreeMarker. If you think there's a moral or ethical problem with that, then we can "agree to disagree" on that, if you wish. OTOH, I would, as a matter of morbid curiosity, wonder what your logical grounds for that would be.This is completely off-topic for this list, but the basic principle is that I don't for one second try to claim that what I think and believe is what someone else should think.
You, on the other hand, have no problems telling others what to think. Even when they explicitly say that they are not interested in what you have to say, you keep going. That's the difference between you and me, and where we'll have to agree on disagreeing. And, just to prove the point, in line with your previous behaviour, you won't agree with me on that, since you want me to think the same way you do.Well, there are things that are subject to legitimate disagreement and things that are not.
Well, that you found whatever thing "disgusting" is your personal subjective state of mind which can't be debated.
I never said anything else.Nonetheless, I can't help but think that there's an element of posturing there...
I would have to agree with you on that one.
:-) Yeah.... don't kid a kidder!
<sigh><LOL>
Rickard, if you wanted to avoid the subject, you should not have brought it up in the first place!
I didn't. Someone asked, and I replied.
*You* brought up the subject. That is not a matter of legitimate disagreement.
Unless you've go some way of doctoring the archives, the above is an outrageous falsehood.Do you think I'm the only guy around who doesn't like it when people spread disinformation about him behind his back? Other than that, do you think that *I* have any interest in showing up on a webwork list and arguing about some silly exchange that occured on the velocity list?
Obvisouly you do.Hey, I've got plans and things to do... *you* are the guy who brought up the subject!
Nope. See above. If you check the archives you'll find what happened.
My expectations of you are simple. Please refrain from making personal comments about me or any other member of the FreeMarker project. It's off-topic, it's improper, and furthermore, it's not in your interest. Though you won't see me around here at all, and I am unhappy about this incident, I am actively encouraging the WW-FM integration behind the scenes. It's clearly a win-win situation. But honestly, I think there's more value-added for WW than FM. I mean, you get integration with a much more powerful template engine that really is actively supported by its developers. On the flip-side, we get a some extra visibility for FM, but it's probably marginal. But getting back to bad taste, I consider it to be in extremely bad taste for people to be bad-mouthing any members of the FreeMarker community. It's in bad taste, it's off-topic, and it's just plain wrong: you have no legitimate grievance against me or anybody in the FM community.Moreover, you mischaracterize something completely, and I respond, quite politely, and have pointed people to the information they need to form their own judgment of what happened.
And, as above, I think that was a great suggestion.Anyway, what aspect of this do you want to avoid? What I suppose you might like to avoid is somebody standing up to you and pointing out that you're wrong.I love it when people point out that I'm wrong. Doesn't happen very often, but when it does it's a joyous occasion.
I'm not asking that you love me or anything but keep it to yourself. If you feel the temptation to say negative personal things about me or anybody else connected with FM, I hope you will have the sense to bite your tongue or sit on your hands or whatever is necessary. And we'll all be better off. That's a win-win proposition.
Best Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker 2.2pre2 is out! http://freemarker.org/
Goodbye Jonathan. /Rickard
------------------------------------------------------- This SF.NET email is sponsored by: SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! http://www.vasoftware.com _______________________________________________ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
