Boy, is pen-l hopping (and hopping mad, on occasion), concerning postmodernism, pro & con. It's becoming PoMoTown, while of course Detroit will continue to be MoTown (Modernist Town). Before starting my hopefully nonrandom points, one comment: Steve Cullenberg refers to my comment that I didn't know "Derrida from dogfood" as an example of "puerile alliterative juxtapositions." Steve assumes that I was criticizing Derrida. Instead, I was stating my ignorance. I know that professions of ignorance are rare in academia, but in this case, it is true: the postmoderns' difficult-because-profound or difficult-because-obscurantist (choose one) prose has driven me away from all efforts to read and thus understand Derrida and other postmodernists. (Wolf and Resnick are exceptions: their prose is quite lucid, allowing me to understand why I disagreed with them.) It would be nice if Steve had reacted to my proposed opposition between the "pomo" and Marx's visions of fetishism (to use a dirty word) by telling me how it was inaccurate. Instead, he seems to have interpreted it as simply an attack (even though I admitted at the end that 5% of any school might be worthwhile; this pomo 5% might include Derrida's work as a whole). His response _felt_ on the level of "shut up, Jim" or "you can't criticize what you don't understand so don't even ask questions." I think (with Jerry Levy) it's futile to try to summarize any school or any major author's ideas in READER'S DIGEST style (or in micro-RD single paragraph summations). (Steve's one-paragraph summary of Derrida made the latter seem superficial, since so many others have similar perspectives. There must be more. Doug's one para summary of Marx also left a lot to be desired.) But I would like to know if there is one major valid (and new) proposition that the postmodern schools have to contribute to social science (besides telling us that we should call it "social studies"). Is there one or (even better) more proposition that makes the cost of wading through that prose worthwhile? Joe Medley's quote was nice, but lots of others have criticized academic squabbles in similar ways. Antonio Callari's discussion of what he got out of postmodernism seemed to fit with Michael Albert's Marxism (in Z Magazine) -- but Michael Albert is a notorious anti-PoMo. A lot of the "pomo" criticisms of 1960s New Leftism and old-fashioned Marxism arose with the feminists and the "minority" leftists, before pomo hit the scene. Blair presents a bibliography, without a clear summary of the content of the books. For example, Laurie Garrett's book seems more an example of left-inflenced science journalism than of postmodernism. A key point (as someone said) is that opposition to modernism doesn't make one a postmodernist. (Just as the valid criticisms of modernist social science are not enough. What is the alternative? There are more than one.) In an unpublished paper that I presented at a Rethinking Marxism conference too long ago, I (perhaps simplistically) posed the following categorization, the division of Marxism into three camps: 1) modernist Marxism (e.g., Oscar Lange and what Colletti termed "the Marxism of the 2nd International" and also the 3rd and 4th Internationals): following the deterministic laws of motion of capital, the forces of production develop, almost automatically producing socialism out of capitalism. 2) postmodern Marxism (e.g., my interpretation of Wolf & Resnick, generalizing and extending Althusser's critique of #1): because of overdetermination (in which everything determines the character of everything else), we really can't say much at all about the future of capitalism. There's not much of a guide to political action (though if taken seriously, school #1 doesn't need any guide to political action). 3) my alternative (yay for the good guys! ;-) Seriously, it's not that original and is partly based on Mike Lebowitz's BEYOND CAPITAL): while school #1 is right about the deterministic nature of the laws of motion of capitalism, they are wrong about the automatic (or semiautomatic) transition to socialism. That is because the laws of motion of capitalism (the relatively concrete social formation in which capital is only a part) also includes the proletariat. The latter does not have deterministic laws of motion, but instead involves an overdetermined complex of ideological, political and economic levels: workers are people (with consciousness, sex, race, location, language, etc.), not automatons. (Capitalists don't _want to be_ automatons, but the coercive laws of the market drive them to act as if they were such.) Because the laws of motion of the proletariat are not deterministic, the system as a whole cannot be: the workers (with all the complexities of other kinds of oppression besides class messing things up) are the wild card in the deck. However, school #2 makes a mistake to give up on _any_ determinism. In fact, we should acknowledge that Marx never finished his exploration and explication of the laws of motion of capital -- and try to finish his job. If we can figure out the deterministic part of capitalism's dynamics are (and we have several good approximations of that theory available), they can help us as a guide to political practice. That is, we can get a good idea of what working people _should_ do. BTW, I'm not into preaching. Part of what _leftists_ should do is to _respect_ the people we are trying to reach. (If Jesse Jackson were here, he'd say that "preaching prevents reaching." Or is that too puerile?) This need for _respect_ for people is something that precedes postmodernism by several years. It is right at the center of the "socialism from below" perspective, which says (to paraphrase an unfashionable old German guy) "only the workers can liberate the workers," an insight that applies for women, racial minorities, etc. Other groups such as intellectuals) can _help_, but if we want to avoid having those other groups become new bosses, it has to be a process of collective and democratic self-liberation by the oppressed. (Rosa Luxemburg had a lot of good things to say here, too, in her critique of Lenin: the mistakes of the people are worth more than the successes of the self-appointed leaders.) in pen-l solidarity, Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Econ. Dept., Loyola Marymount Univ. 7900 Loyola Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90045-8410 USA 310/338-2948 (daytime, during workweek); FAX: 310/338-1950 "Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own way and let people talk.) -- K. Marx, paraphrasing Dante A.