I generally agree with Peter Burns' comments on this topic, except that he overgeneralized a bit too much from the relatively painless and violence-free "velvet revolution" of the former Czechoslovakia. (Albania or Rumania, for example, were quite different.) Concerning socialism from below, Fikret says:>>As we know it, no such [successful] revolution has ever occurred [against capitalism]. No regime wants to transfer power to its opposite peacefully and democratically. They (existing regimes) put precautionary measures in place to prevent it from happening. Advance[d] capitalist countries have de-jure and de-facto institutions in place, so it is unlikely to organize the oppressed to unseat the oppressors. << I generally agree with the above (as amended, in brackets). But the issue of the need for military force -- or violence in general -- to the overthrow existing capitalist mode of production is a _different issue_ from that of socialism from below vs. socialism from above. (1) a military effort to overthrow capitalism is more effective to the extent that this effort is enthusiastically supported by the "grassroots," i.e., the oppressed. Less violence is needed. In fact, with serious popular support for revolution (as in the 1917 Russian rev.), the government's armed forces can fall apart, in that they rely on soldiers with social ties to the population. A less complete process of the collapse of the military machine occurred in the US during the Viet Nam war. A military effort without such grassroots support leans heavily in the Unabomber or Weather Underground direction. That is, it is at best silly. Most people on the left know this: that's why we (including I) do not advocate military putsches, do not advocate the forcible overthrow of the US government. Any strategy that begins with military means is bound to lose, especially in the sense of liberating people. (2) A military effort that enlists the population and empowers them to help in the fight will be more effective. This is simply because there will be more people involved. (3) A military effort that does not do so also threatens to create the military as a new elite. In Algeria, for example, the more popularly-based domestic guerrilla war lost out (due to French efforts) but the external army under Boumoudienne won. So who do you think ended up running the country? A long process of the development of grass-roots democratic organizations among the oppressed means that when and if the capitalist governement falls, there will be some sort of organization to take its place and run society rather than the military or the vanguard party's bureaucracy. These grass-roots organizations of what the bolsheviks termed "dual power" can also arise "spontaneously" as the old order crumbles. But they really don't arise spontaneously, as much as culminate what E.P. Thompson termed the "development of the working class." We have to remmber that that the military is organized in a hierarchical and dictatorial way. Hierarchy and dictatorship are not socialist, at least in the sense of socialism that I endorse. >>In the Third World, the obstacles are even more. So, naturally arm[ed] revolution, not ballot-box revolution becomes the only viable alternative for the oppressed majority, who begin to use every opportunity and means to topple the oppressive regime.<< I wasn't talking about a ballot-box revolution. >>Usually, a minority of the oppressed initiates the revolution (arm-revolution) and others voluntarily or involuntarily joins the movement. Since we do not expect spontaneous uprisings, like prairie fires, what do we call for this revolution? The revolution to be from below or above does not depend on who initiates or who starts it, rather how the decisions are being made at every step and once it becomes a successful revolution how it continues. That is, how democratic it is. If the transitional state empowers the masses toward self-government and moves toward more egalitarian society by eliminating the oppression (i.e., wage-labor), then we can say that the socialist revolution is "from below." Any other has to be a revolution from above, by them and for them.<< Sure (though I don't understand the last sentence), but we have to be careful: often a small group _says_ that it represents the workers and other oppressed groups. But it may subsitute itself as a bunch of new bosses to replace the old ones. Getting rid of wage labor isn't enough: it might be replaced by slave labor, as with Pol Pot. for socialism from below, Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Los Angeles, CA (the city of your future: the city of smog, earthquakes, fires, floods, civil disturbances, OJ, the Menendi, and Heidi (daughter of our nephew's pediatrician) Fleiss).