Lead by example. +1.
________________________________________ From: pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Stéphane Ducasse [stephane.duca...@inria.fr] Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 1:34 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Are Objects really hard? Janko Frankly I do not care about what other people are thinking. OOP is a success look at Java, C#. Now let us keep our energy to build better Smalltalks. Stef On Feb 11, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Hernan Wilkinson wrote: > I could not agree more... most programmers don't know what a is closure (for > example), have no idea of who is Alan Kay (or worse, Alonso Curch) and they > only care about how to use Spring's dependency injection without > understanding the real design flaw, or the new Hibernate annotations that > will help them to write less "xml code"...... but there is hope :-) > > On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 9:55 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bsch...@anest.ufl.edu> > wrote: > Yes, programming is hard. It's even harder if one is poorly educated and not > well read. I don't expect that everyone will have Smalltalk experience, but > I would expect someone nearing completion of a PhD in computer science to > have at least _heard_ of Smalltalk and Alan Kay. I recently met a very > bright count-example to my expectation. > > The average programmer I meet, has no historical perspective, can't > intelligently compare and contrast oo, structured and functional approaches > to software implementation. All they seem to care about is this or that > "technology" they saw in a glossy ad. > > Do you recall a talk Alan gave some years back at Stanford? He was on a good > rant about how our computer science/engineering departments had let > themselves be turned into Java certification mills, and ultimately uttered > the words "what has happened to the mighty Standford?" I was a little > surprised at his candor (took guts) and agreed with every word he said. > > The problem is PATHETIC education and self-preparation, IMHO. > > > From: pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr > [pharo-project-boun...@lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Hernan Wilkinson > [hernan.wilkin...@10pines.com] > Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2012 7:42 AM > > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > Cc: VWNC; va-smallt...@googlegroups.com; GNU Smalltalk; > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Are Objects really hard? > > Well... functional programming is hard and not everybody really understands > it... structured programming is hard and not everybody really understood > it... hmm at the end, programming is hard :-) > > He gives no reason about his stament nor "demonstration" of it neither... so > he has a feeling, me too and a completely different one :-) > > > > > On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 9:21 AM, Janko Mivšek <janko.miv...@eranova.si> wrote: > Hi guys, > > Again one interesting topic for this weekend to discuss. David Nolen, a > Lisp and JavaScript guy posted in his blog an article titled Illiterate > Programming [1] where he said: > > "...Yet I think Smalltalk still fundamentally failed (remember this is a > programming language originally designed to scale from children to > adults) because *Objects are really hard* and no-one really understands > to this day how to do them right...." > > He links to Alan Kay post [2] back in 1998 where he talks about problems > with inheritance: > > "Here are a few problems in the naive inheritance systems we use today: > confusions of Taxonomy and Parentage, of Specialization and Refinement, > of Parts and Wholes, of Semantics and Pragmatics..." > > Let we concentrate on broader "Objects are really hard and no-one really > understands to this day how to do them right" claim and not merely > inheritance, please. > > Best regards > Janko > > [1] http://dosync.posterous.com/illiterate-programming > [2] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/1998-April/009261.html > > -- > Janko Mivšek > Aida/Web > Smalltalk Web Application Server > http://www.aidaweb.si > > > > > -- > Hernán Wilkinson > Agile Software Development, Teaching & Coaching > Mobile: +54 - 911 - 4470 - 7207 > email: hernan.wilkin...@10pines.com > site: http://www.10Pines.com > Address: Paraguay 523, Floor 7 N, Buenos Aires, Argentina > > > > > -- > Hernán Wilkinson > Agile Software Development, Teaching & Coaching > Mobile: +54 - 911 - 4470 - 7207 > email: hernan.wilkin...@10pines.com > site: http://www.10Pines.com > Address: Paraguay 523, Floor 7 N, Buenos Aires, Argentina >
