Hi Rod,
Thank you for your thoughtful answer.
The thing is...I know what transubstantiation is. I had a great deal of trouble
understanding how
Bruce saw it and how he thought it led to the conclusions he came to. This is why I
asked him to
explain further.
Cheers,
Trudy
Rod Hagen wrote:
> At 04:51 PM 1/3/99, Trudy and Rod Bray wrote:
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >> ENGLAND IN CONTEXT
> >>
> >> The English experiment in life is, admittedly, part of a wider
> >> and longer process which reaches back to the 'spread' to Indo-
> >> European ways into the lives of others, and before that a
> >> European 'neolithic' stage which made the 'spread' of Indo-
> >> European possible.
> >>
> >> Looking at things from this perspective, the moment at which
> >> one group of people renounce a belief in transubstantiation is
> >> a crucial disappearing or vanishing point of a long tradition
> >> which reaches back into the common ground between the West and
> >> First Peoples.
> >>
> >> The contrast provided by Quiros and Governor Phillip
> >> highlights the two sides of this vanishing point. Both images,
> >> no doubt, surrounded by chaos as you rightly demonstrate. But
> >> striking figures for all that, as fractal images of a more
> >> complex system.
> >
> >Bruce,
> >
> >Would you explain what you mean by 'renouncing a belief in
> >transubstantiation' and how that
> >constitutes a 'vanishing point of a long tradition which reaches back into
> >the common ground
> >between the West and First Peoples'?
> >
> >Trudy
>
> I'll have a quick go at this (Bruce may or may not agree)
>
> Transubstantiation is the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church which
> maintains that the wine and wafer are changed into the real body and blood
> of Christ during the Sacrement of the Eucharist.
>
> It is contrasted with various other Christian interpretations , such as
> impanation and subpanation (respectively the beliefs that the body and
> blood are in or under the bread and wine) and from theories which maintain
> that the body and blood are only spiritually present.
>
> These matters were the subject of extensive theological debate during the
> middle ages (Occam - remember Occam's Razor - "it is vain to do with more
> that which can be done with fewer" - was excommunicated in 1328 for
> committing heresy by questioning transubstantiation) , and finally
> confirmed as Catholic dogma by the Council of Trent in 1551. The
> development of transubstantiation as a fundamental christian belief appears
> to have grown during the latter part of the first millenium with the
> emergence of a clear distinction between clergy and laity. Such
> transformations could only be performed by the clergy. Accordingly the
> acceptance of transubstantion is seen by some (like Bertrand Russell for
> example) as one of the markers of the development of the Christian church
> from a "peoples religious movement" to a heirarchically structured one.
> (See Russell's History of Western Philosophy chapter 11).
>
> Protestant movements in the middle of the 2nd millenium generally rejected
> transubstantiation as well as the political power of the pope and clergy,
> and saw themselves as effectively substituting a "peoples religion" for a
> politically dominated one.
>
> Bruce (and I hope I'm not putting words into his mouth here) sees an
> analogy (or perhaps rather more than an analogy) between the acceptance of
> transubstantiation and indigenous spiritual beliefs and it is certainly
> possible to see some similarities.
>
> As to the abandonment of transubstantiation being the 'vanishing point of a
> long tradition which reaches back into the common ground between the West
> and First Peoples' I have some grave doubts.
>
> Sure, you can see bits and pieces of similarity, but this does not
> establish commonality. One could say, just as easily for example, that the
> democratic processes of the early Christian Church (resurrected in part by
> the Protestant movements when they attacked the dogma oftransubstantiation)
> fit well with indigenous peoples beliefs.
>
> Cheers
>
> Rod
>
> Rod Hagen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Hurstbridge, Victoria, Australia
> WWW http://www.netspace.net.au/~rodhagen
>
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