Eugene: You obviously did not read the first two paragraphs of the post if that is all you saw!
Quoting "Volokh, Eugene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Well, all I saw was what the post said. The post listed bad > things that Christianity is responsible for; it seemed pretty > clearly > like a slam at Christianity. It strikes me as very likely > that many > people would have interpreted it this way. I would have > thought that > the author would have understood that it would be interpreted > this way. > I don't see the upside to turning this list into a forum for > "here's > what's wrong with your religion -- no, here's what's wrong > with your > religion," and I see lots of downside. > > Eugene > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Paul > > Finkelman > > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 12:44 PM > > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics > > Subject: Re: From the list custodian > > > > > > Eugene: > > > > My point was a serious one about how one organizes a course, > and > > reminder that when people teach a course to argue for a > > viewpoint and to > > ignore other information it undermines academic integrity. > > > The fact is > > this: a "History of the Influence of Christianity in > > American history" > > taught in a fundamentalist Christian school would not likely > > > teach many > > of the topics I suggested; most American history coursres > > would teach a > > number of them, as well as teach about Puritans, the two > great > > awakenings, the role of religious people in the antislavery > > > movement and > > the civil rights movement. > > > > If Rick wants to play the list game, I think it only fair to > > > explore the > > issue. > > > > Paul Finkelman > > > > Volokh, Eugene wrote: > > > Folks: I'm sure that people on this list would be > able > > to compile > > > lists of the great sins of atheists and atheistic regimes; > > > of Muslims; > > > of Jews; of Catholics; of Protestants; and more. They > > would also be > > > able to compile lists of the good things that each of > those > > groups have > > > done. Whether religion (or irreligion) generally, or > certain > > > denominations in particular, are on balance malign or > > benign influences > > > on the nation is a topic that has been debated for > > centuries, and has > > > filled volumes. It can easily fill days and days of list > > > discussion, > > > too, should people choose to embark on it. > > > > > > But do we really think that posting such lists -- no > matter how > > > much > > > the post may entertain the author -- will be helpful to > thoughtful, > > > reasoned list discussion of the law of government and > religion? > > > > > > The list custodian > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul Finkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Rick: > > > > > > I would assume that UC has equivalent courses such > > > as "History of > > > Christianity"; "Renaissance/Reformation" and a > > number of early > > > modern > > > European courses and late antiquity courses that > deal almost > > > entirely > > > with the Church and Church history. There are > > probably courses > > > on the > > > Bible taught in various departments at UC as they > > > are in most > > > universities. Moreover, the history of religion > > pops up all over > > > the > > > place. When I used to teach US Survery in a > history > > department I > > > always > > > spent at least a week on the Puritans and assigned > > > a book about > > > them. > > > My discussion of 19th century reform movements > > included a good > > > deal on > > > the 2nd great awakening; I always had a lecture on > > > the 1st great > > > awkening in a survey course. Every colonial > history course I > > > ever took > > > (or knew of) had a huge section on religion. In > anything, > > > colonialists > > > probably spend too much time on the Puritans. > > > > > > Furthermore, I would imagine that a great number > of > > the courses > > > below > > > would have content about Christians and > > Christianity, including > > > "Storytelling," "Gender, Sexuality, and Identity > in > > Literature," > > > (lots > > > of interesting religious issues there, from the > > problem of guilt to > > > fundamentalist hombophobia) "Jewish History," (had > > > to teach it > > > without > > > discussing Christianity); Turning Points in Jewish > > > History (same > > > comment); Issues in African History (from > > Missionaries to Bishop > > > Tutu it > > > will show up); Holocaust Literature, Islam, etc. > > will all have to > > > discuss Christianity and its relationship to other > > > faiths and > > > events. > > > > > > I think a course on the "Influence of Christianity > > > in the US" > > > would be > > > interesting and certainly valid. Such a course > > would lectures and > > > readings on the following (in no particular > order): > > > > > > The KKK (and the use of the Cross as a symbol of > > terrorism and > > > hatred; > > > Christian "identity" movements in the last 25 > years > > > Father Coughlin's antisemitism > > > The hanging of witches in Salem and Quakers in > Boston > > > The use of Christian theology to defend (as well > as > > attack) slavery > > > The use of conversion of slaves to help prevent > > resistance to > > > slavery > > > Ownership of slaves by churches > > > The utter failure of the Protestant Churches in > the > > South to the > > > take a > > > strong stand in favor of legalizing slave > marriages > > > The persecution of Mormons and the murder of > Joseph Smith > > > The death penalty (fortunately reduced to exile) > > for a Jew in > > > colonial > > > Maryland because he denied the divinity of Christ > > > The whipping and jailing of Baptist ministers in > > Virginia in the > > > Revolutionary period. > > > The intellectual intolerance of the 1920s (and > more recent > > > periods) by > > > prohibiting the teaching of evolution in the > public schools > > > The forced reading of Protestant version of the > > Bible imposed on > > > Catholics in the 19th century > > > The a! ttacks on Al Smith's presidential campaign > (and also > > > attack on John > > > F. Kennedy) because they were Catholic. > > > The strong stand against integration taken by > virtually ever > > > southern > > > Christian minister in the 1950s and early 1960s. > > > The influence of religious groups in undermining > > Indian culture and > > > religion and forcing Indian children not to learn > their own > > > language. > > > The use of Protestant theology (and the influence > > > of Christian > > > leaders) > > > to justify wars against Indians, particularly in > > the colonial > > > period. > > > > > > Yes, it would be a great course; I would love to > teach it. > > > > > > Paul Finkelman > > > -- > > > Paul Finkelman > > > Chapman Distinguished Professor > > > University of Tulsa College of Law > > > 3120 East 4th Place > > > Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499 > > > > > > 918-631-3706 (office) > > > 918-631-2194 (fax) > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > Rick Duncan wrote: > > > > If you haven't read the complaint > > > > > > > > in the Association of Christian Schools v. UC > case, I > > > encourage you to > > > > do so. Although UC denied approval to courses > concerning > > > > "Christianity's Influence on American History" > and > > > "Christianity and > > > > Morality in American Literature" as being too > > narrow and not > > > consistent > > > > "with knowledge generally accepted in the > collegiate > > > community," at the > > > > same time it approved courses such as these: > > > > > > > > Social Commentary in Popular Music > > > > Baseball, Literature and Culture > > > > Sports Fiction/Non Fiction > > > > Storytelling > > > > The Roots of Rock Music ("yeah, yeah, yeah") > > > > Gender Roles in Literature > > > > Ethnic Experience in Literature > > > > Gender, Sexuality, and Identity in Literature > > > > Literature of the Counterculture > > > > Literature from the 60's Movement > > > > Filipino Heritage Studies > > > > Intro to Rabbinic Literature > > > > Jewish History > > > > Turning Poi! nts in Jewish History > > > > Issues in African History > > > > Raza Studies > > > > History of India > > > > Mexican History > > > > Modern Irish History > > > > Asian Literature > > > > Holocaust Literature > > > > Chicano Literature > > > > Beat Literature (like, cool, man!) > > > > Women's Literature > > > > Intro to Buddhism > > > > Islam > > > > > > > > And the beat goes on. There were many similar > > courses that were > > > > also approved. > > > > > > > > Now these facts are from the complaint. UC may > > > reply that it > > > has not > > > > approved Beat Literature or Baseball Literature > > > or the other > > > > narrow courses from specialized points of view. > > > But if these > > > are the > > > > facts. this case looks very much like the kind > > > of religious > > > gerrymander > > > > we saw in Lukumi where a person could kill an > animal for > > > almost any > > > > reason except religious ritual. And it also > > looks like the > > > kind of > > > > subjective, individualized, discretionary > procedures that > > > trigger ! strict > > > > scrutiny under Sherbert and the individualized > > > process rule. > > > > > > > > I have only glanced at the 108-page complaint, > > > but it sure > > > looks to me > > > > like the Pls have a strong claim of viewpoint > > and religious > > > > discrimination. Indeed, there seems to be at > least a > > > possibility of > > > > denominational discrimination in the approval > process. It > > > would not > > > > surprise me at all if UC settles this one as > quickly and > > > quietly as > > > > possible. > > > > > > > > Rick Duncan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick Duncan > > > > Welpton Professor of Law > > > > University of Nebraska College of Law > > > > Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 > > > > > > > > "When the Round Table is broken every man must > > > follow either > > > Galahad or > > > > Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis, > > Grand Miracle > > > > > > > > "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, > briefed, > > > debriefed, or > > > > numbered." --The Prisoner > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > protection around > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > To post, send message to > Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > > > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or > > get password, > > > see > > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > > > > > > > Please note that messages sent to this large > > list cannot be > > > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the > list and read > > > messages that are posted; people can read the Web > > > archives; and > > > list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the > > > messages to > > > others. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To post, send message to > Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get > > > password, see > > > > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > > > > > Please note that messages sent to this large list > cannot be > > > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the > list and read > > > messages that are posted; people can read the Web > > > archives; and > > > list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the > > > messages to > > > others. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rick Duncan > > > Welpton Professor of Law > > > University of Nebraska College of Law > > > Lincoln, NE 68583-0902 > > > > > > "When the Round Table is broken every man must follow > > > either Galahad > > > or Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis, Grand > Miracle > > > > > > "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, > > briefed, debriefed, > > > or numbered." --The Prisoner > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------- > > > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief > effort. > > > <http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/> > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get > password, see > > > > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > > > > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot > be > > viewed as > > > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read > > messages that are > > > posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members > can > > > (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. > > > > > > -- > > Paul Finkelman > > Chapman Distinguished Professor > > University of Tulsa College of Law > > 3120 East 4th Place > > Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499 > > > > 918-631-3706 (office) > > 918-631-2194 (fax) > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, > > > see > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be > > > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and > read > > messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; > > > and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the > > messages to others. > > > _______________________________________________ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, > see > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read > messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; > and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages > to others. > Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law Univ. of Tulsa College of Law 2120 East 4th Place Tulsa OK 74104-3189 Phone: 918-631-3706 Fax: 918-631-2194 _______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
