The discussion of this suit has not been appropriately sensitive to the fact that the Air Force Academy is a governmental institution, in which conventional constitutional norms totally forbid a cadre of state-employed clergy. These chaplains are only permitted by analogy to military chaplains -- AFA cadets are away from home, and are in military service, so the Air Force provides chaplains to minister to cadets' expressed spiritual needs. Chaplains (in service academies, or in active duty armed forces) should not to be trying to "convert" anyone. Active conversion efforts are quite outside their assigned (and constitutionally circumscribed) role.
Attempts to proselytize by fellow students, not acting as agents of the government, stand on a different footing. Up to the point of harassment, cadets should be free to try to convert other cadets. But in that sort of highly controlled environment, the government should be unusually sensitive to religious harassment -- that is, unwanted conversion efforts, or denigration of the faiths of fellow cadets (by students or anyone else). Chip Lupu On 7 Oct 2005 at 12:00, Stephen R. Prescott, Esq. wrote: > > It seems to me that the suit seeks far more than a ban on > "involuntary" conversion. It seeks to ban attempts to convert or > prostylize OR attempting "to involuntarily convert . . ." It looks > like the plaintiffcontents that any attempt to convert or prostylize > (I think that is what chaplains do) is per se off limits. Short of a > gun the head, attempting to "involuntarily convert" is an oxymoron.I > doubtthat the real objective of the plaintiff is to prevent attempts > at involuntary conversion. If the only goal of the suit is to prevent > service men and women from being forced to attend religious services > against their will - I doubt if anyone on this list would disagree. > However, it appears to be an attempt tocompel silence from anyperson > with whose religious views the plaintiff disagrees. Steve Prescott > > > From: Steven Jamar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics > <religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu> To: Law & Religion issues for Law > Academics <religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu> Subject: Re: Air Force sued > over religious intolerance Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:14:09 -0400 > > Brad, > let me quote what you quoted: > On Oct 6, 2005, at 1:52 PM, Brad M Pardee wrote: > > 2) The lawsuit "asks the Air Force to prohibit its members > including chaplains from evangelizing and proselytizing or in > any related way attempting 'to involuntarily convert, pressure, > exhort or persuade a fellow member of the USAF to accept their own > religious beliefs while on duty.'" > > emphasis added by me. > Isn't this exactly the standard you are asking for? Does it not > allow voluntary discussions of the type you want? > > I also think you are overestimating the internal strength of most > people, armed forces leaders included, if you think a senior cadet or > any teacher is not in an inherently superior position to a new > recruit, or even another student peer. I think you may also be > underestimating the effect of years of propaganda on even the most > internally focused person. People can be persuaded by constant refrain > of many heinous things, let alone by more seemingly benign promises of > salvation. > > Steve > > -- > Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 > Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 > 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar/ > > "In these words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: It > goes on." > > Robert Frost > > > > _______________________________________________ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are > posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can > (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. > Ira C. ("Chip") Lupu F. Elwood & Eleanor Davis Professor of Law The George Washington University Law School 2000 H St., NW Washington D.C 20052 (202) 994-7053 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] _______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
