Volokh, Eugene wrote:
As I understand it, the requirements of AA attendance have generally been struck down on Establishment Clause grounds. The theory there isn't "establishing as a religion for the state" as such, but rather violation of the "no coercion" rule of Establishment Clause caselaw. The claimant hasn't been required to show any religious objection to the behavior (as he would be under the Free Exercise Clause); as with the graduates in Lee v. Weisman, it has been enough that he show that he was being coerced into engaging in a religious practice. And giving someone the option of participating in a religious practice or going to jail (or staying longer in jail) has been treated as coercion. Am I mistaken about those cases? Do people think those cases are mistaken? Do they think the cases are inapplicable here?Eugene-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Paul Finkelman Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:52 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: "Racist Man Sentenced To Attend Black Church" This raises an interesting question. Judges often send people to AA for their illegal behavior related to drinking and AA is heavily religious. I do not see an Establishment Clause issue here but rather a free exercise one. I see sending him to a black church as a way of forcing him to associate with African Americans and to be part of their culture for a few Sundays, on the theory, I suppose, that if he gets to know blacks he won't hate them (I think this is a dumb theory, but that is beside the point). It is not "establishing" the black church as a religion for the state. He is being forced to associate with blacks, and therefore is losing his freedom of association (or non-association) but that can happen whenever you get convicted; you go to jail and associate with people who might not want to hang out with. But, let us suppose, for arguments sake, that this person was a member of a faith which prohibited him from attending the religious worship of others. Then it would seem to me that his free exercise rights were being violated. At that point I think the court could be required to give him some other "alternative sentence" -- such as go tutor in a mostly black school for a month; go live in a dorm at an HBCU for a month, etc. OR the court could just send him to the slammer for a disorderly conduct. Paul Finkelman Volokh, Eugene wrote:Wouldn't there be an Establishment Clause problem, though?-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Paul Finkelman Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:35 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: Re: "Racist Man Sentenced To Attend Black Church" Let the punishment fit the crime? Volokh, Eugene wrote:Constitutional? (I assume the sentence was for aracially motivatedthreat or perhaps racially motivated fighting words, andnot literallyfor [in part] "using racial slurs.") Eugene http://www.local6.com/news/6142521/detail.html A judge has sentenced a suburban Cincinnati man to attendservices forsix weeks at a black church for threatening to punch a black cab driver and using racial slurs. Judge William Mallory Jr. . . . let Haines choose between attending the black church for six Sundays or spending 30 days injail. Hainessaid he'd try the church, although he doesn't usually worship on Sunday. Mallory offered Haines the choice Friday after Haines wasconvicted ofdisorderly conduct. He was arrested in November afterthreatening cabdriver David Wilson and Wilson's wife. Mallory said he was concerned about maintaining theseparation betweenchurch and state, so the judge asked Haines whether theoption wouldoffend him. Haines said he would like to try it. The cab driver said he wished Haines had been jailedinstead because,in his words, "Church don't change everybody." _______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot beviewed asprivate. Anyone can subscribe to the list and readmessages that areposted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.-- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499 918-631-3706 (office) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] _______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others._______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot beviewed asprivate. Anyone can subscribe to the list and readmessages that areposted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.-- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499 918-631-3706 (office) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] _______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others._______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
-- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, OK 74104-3189 918-631-3706 (office) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
_______________________________________________ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
