Great questions, Susan and Paul....
On the contrary, true separation would require the military chaplain prays
the same way his civilian bishop requires (even in public), NOT the way the
commanding officer orders him to pray. When a commander orders a chaplain to
censor his public prayers, violate his religious orders, and pray to the
government's "civic god" or face government punishment, (as I faced), certainly
the government has established (and enforced) a non-sectarian state religion,
and forced it on all chaplains and all Sailors of diverse faiths. The better
solution is to take turns and let each pray according to the dictates of his
own conscience, without enforcing conformity to one "government-sanitized"
faith expression.
Federal law agrees with me, and since 1860 has protected chaplains rights,
today codified in 10 USC 6031: "An officer in the chaplain corps may conduct
public worship according to the manner and forms of the church of which he is a
member."
And the Supreme Court has already ruled against government enforced
"non-sectarian prayer content" in 1991 Lee vs. Weisman:
"The government may not establish an official or civic religion as a means of
avoiding the establishment of a religion with more specific creeds...The
State's role did not end with the decision to include a prayer and with the
choice of clergyman. Principal Lee provided Rabbi Gutterman with a copy of the
"Guidelines for Civic Occasions" and advised him that his prayers should be
nonsectarian. Through these means, the principal directed and controlled the
content of the prayers. Even if the only sanction for
ignoring the instructions were that the rabbi would not be invited back, we
think no religious representative who valued his or her continued reputation
and effectiveness in the community would incur the State's displeasure in this
regard. It is a cornerstone principle of our Establishment Clause jurisprudence
that it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers
for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program
carried on by government, Engel v. Vitale, (1962), and that is what the school
officials attempted to do."
Susan, Paul, do you disagree with the statute, or with the Supreme Court's
interpretation?
Incidentally, somebody asked if I'm still a chaplain, and the answer is yes,
because my church ordained me for the ministry of chaplaincy....although I'm no
longer a lieutenant and no longer an officer....having been honorably
discharged after 15.5 years.
I pray in Jesus name,
Chaplain Klingenschmitt
Paul Finkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Clearly he neither sees a violationa, nor believes that there should be a
separation.
Paul Finkelman
------------------------------
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/18/07 4:10 AM >>>
Surely you should be allowed to say any prayer you want, in private. To
give a Christian prayer in church is no problem for me, and if you pray
to Jesus in a military service for Christians, fine.
To pray to Jesus in a general military service is improper, and I see
problems with any law which expressly allows you to do that.
I respect your feeling deeply about what you see as an important issue.
Allow me to feel equally deeply about your imposing a Christian prayer
on non-Christians. You don't see a violation of the separation of church
and state here?
Susan
Gordon James Klingenschmitt wrote:
--------------------------------
> Since Eugene gave us the green light to talk politics....
> Below is my op-ed for today's Worldnet Daily, explaining the likely
> views of four Presidential candidates (Clinton, Obama, Brownback,
> Hunter) on a military chaplain's right to pray publicly "in Jesus name."
> Jesus for President?
> http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55725
> Enjoy!
> Chaplain Klingenschmitt
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> WND Exclusive Commentary
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jesus for president?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Posted: May 17, 2007
> 1:00 a.m. Eastern
>
> By Gordon James Klingenschmitt
> OK, I admit, Jesus Christ is not running for president this year. He
> promised to return soon enough, to assume public office, but
> meanwhile, where do the 2008 presidential candidates stand on a
> military chaplain's right to pray publicly "in Jesus' name"?
> I'm not naming names, but let's start with Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.
> When the Navy punished me, a chaplain, for quoting the Bible in the
> chapel during optionally attended Christian worship, I faxed a formal
> whistleblower complaint to my New York senator, asking for help. Did
> she protect her evangelical chaplain? No.
> I called her office nearly every day, but nobody returned my phone
> calls for weeks, until finally, I voice-mailed her press secretary
> about my interview with "Jewish Week" newspaper
> ,
> telling how I was punished for requesting Kosher meals for my Jewish
> sailor. "Shall I tell them Senator Clinton doesn't care about Jewish
> service members?" I asked. Fearing bad press, Clinton signed a "letter
> of inquiry" to the Navy
> for me that same
> day.
> But later, after Navy officials justified to her how I was also
> "properly punished" for praying "in Jesus' name" and how chaplains
> really should pray "non-sectarian" prayers in public, my sources
> witnessed Sen. Clinton taking bold action /against me/. Opposing a
> House bill to let chaplains pray according to their faith
> , Clinton personally
> attended meetings to block our legislation, preferring to let the
> Pentagon censor our prayers.
> Sen. Barrack Hussein Obama wasn't any better.
> While campaigning in Iowa last month, Obama was asked his opinion
> about Judge Roy Moore, who couldn't display the Ten Commandments in
> the courthouse, and about me, a chaplain who was discharged for
> praying in uniform.
> First, Sen. Obama falsely claimed he wasn't aware of "the chaplain
> situation," when I'd personally faxed my whistleblower complaints to
> his office , and his
> staff acknowledged placing them on his desk.
> Even worse, Obama disrespected the Ten Commandments, claiming, "If you
> are not a believer, there would be a feeling that you wouldn't be
> treated as fairly as a Christian. We want everybody to feel they are
> treated equally."
>
> Apparently, Obama believes God's Ten Commandments are unfair since
> they might hurt people's "feelings" (as if his pro-abortion laws don't
> hurt the "feelings" of the unborn).
> Would President Obama appoint judges who oppose Roy Moore and would
> jackhammer the 44 displays of the Ten Commandments from our U.S.
> Supreme Court? He still won't debate Judge Moore on the subject
> ,
> yet Barrack Hussein Obama campaigns like a good Christian,
> soft-pedaling his Muslim upbringing.
> Conversely, Sen. Sam Brownback votes like he says he believes.
> When I first came to Washington, D.C., Sen. Brownback welcomed me to
> speak at his weekly Values Action Team meeting, where I enlisted
> dozens of pro-family groups and senators to vote for allowing prayers
> in Jesus' name.
> Brownback personally wrote President Bush to help chaplains, and when
> our legislation came to the Senate, Sam Brownback again reminded
> Values Action Team members to stand up for religious liberty. (But
> he'd never brag about this; he's too humble.) If elected, I've no
> doubt President Brownback would immediately sign an executive order
> protecting all chaplains' right to pray according to their faith.
> Presidential candidate Duncan Hunter also went to bat for chaplains.
> Leading 75 members of Congress with Walter B. Jones, Rep. Hunter (then
> chairman of the House Armed Services Committee) personally wrote and
> passed a House bill to let chaplains pray according to their faith.
> But when his bill got blocked by liberal senators, did he quit? No.
> Fighting to the last, Duncan Hunter helped negotiate a compromise with
> the Pentagon, forcing them to rescind their bad Navy prayer policy,
> even letting Air Force chaplains pray publicly "in Jesus' name." As
> commander in chief, I've no doubt Duncan Hunter would force the
> Pentagon to respect the 1860 law and once again let chaplains pray
> freely.
> Will our next commander in chief protect chaplains? Although Jesus
> isn't running for president, I remember his warning to discern true
> prophets from false: "By their fruit ye shall know them." The fruit of
> these candidates * Clinton, Obama, Brownback, Hunter * may be clearly
> seen by their stand for (or against) public prayer in Jesus' name.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> /Gordon James Klingenschmitt is a former Navy chaplain who sacrificed
> his career to help change national policy, allowing military chaplains
> to publicly pray "in Jesus name" * even in uniform. He continues his
> fight to be reinstated. Klingenschmitt is available to speak and can
> be reached via email at: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> . He encourages readers to sign his
> petition to Secretary of Defense Robert Gates: /
> https://secure.responseenterprises.com/DF_InJesusName/petition.php?a=
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
>
> with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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