Folks: I agree that saying someone "appear[s] unable to
comprehend" some view is probably a poor way of putting things. It
seems to me that we ought to assume that all of us are able to
comprehend others' arguments, and do comprehend others' arguments (at
least in the absence of some obvious misunderstanding), but just
disagree with others' arguments.
I should also say that we should generally focus to the extent
possible on questions closely linked to the law of government and
religion, rather than questions of theology and psychology (except to
the extent that the latter are indeed very closely linked to legal
questions). The legal expertise of members of this list may well shed a
good deal of light on legal subjects; I doubt that we can shed
comparable light on theological or psychological ones.
Eugene
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan Freiman
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 4:42 AM
> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
> Subject: Re: "Mormon Student, Justice, ACLU Join Up"
>
> What is the etiquette on this list, please? Would it be
> proper to send a personal email thanking Dr. Guinn for
> pointing out to me that I am
> unable to comprehend a believer's perspective? Maybe it's because I
> lack a PhD that I failed to learn the difference between
> rational and empirical, though I am looking forward to being
> introduced to the works of Hutchens (an author with whom I am
> totally unfamiliar).
>
> Are atheists convicted as evangelicals by virtue of the
> passion of their readers?
>
> Susan, one year of a two year course in complementary
> veterinary medicine
>
> David E. Guinn wrote:
> > Three points:
> >
> > My citation of Paul and Calvin is not offered as a form of
> religious
> > revelation (i.e. scripture) but simply to reflect the
> perspective of
> > believers which you appear unable to comprehend. As someone who is
> > NOT a believer myself, I nonetheless find it helpful to try to
> > understand the perspectives of people of faith.
> >
> > Second, there is a distinction between "rational" - which
> includes the
> > concepts of logically consistent, and coherent through the
> application
> > of reason to basic concepts and principles and "empirical" -- which
> > suggests grounding in a materialist ideology. You seem to equate
> > rational with empirical.
> >
> > Third, to say atheists are not evangelical ignores the passion and
> > furor around Harris, Dawkins, Hutchens et. al. and the best selling
> > books they have written.
> >
> > David E. Guinn, JD, PhD
> >
> > Recent Publications Available from SSRN at
> > http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/cf_dev/AbsByAuth.cfm?per_id=199608
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Susan Freiman
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 5:24 AM
> > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
> > Subject: Re: "Mormon Student, Justice, ACLU Join Up"
> >
> > I don't see answering whether belief is a question of choice by
> > reference to a religious belief, which is the same as referring to
> > Calvin and Paul for the answer. And if theology grows out of the
> > belief, that doesn't mean the theology is not irrational, it means
> > only that it is logically consistent if the validity of the premise
> > (belief) is conceded. Nor is faith more rational if one
> values it for
> > touching something deeper and more profound. Deeper that
> what? More
> > profound than what? And how do we know?
> >
> > Atheists aren't trying to persuade anyone of anything.
> Most are too
> > laid back to care what others believe, although they try to teach
> > others the difference between rational, evidence-based
> conclusions and
> > beliefs which are not proved.
> >
> > One can choose to look for proof or not, and to be guided
> by success
> > in finding proof.
> >
> > Susan
> >
> >
> >
> > David E. Guinn wrote:
> >
> >> It does seem to me that one of the most compelling
> arguments in favor
> >> of religious freedom is the recognition that religious
> belief is not
> >> simply a matter of choice--like deciding whether or not to join a
> >> fraternity or sorority. As Calvin and Paul suggested, it is a
> >> product of grace. That does not mean that people of faith are
> >> irrational with respect to the theology that grows out of that
> >> belief, it does mean that faith touches something much
> deeper and more profound.
> >>
> >> That said, I think the evangelical fervor displayed by the
> >> neo-atheists (as E.J. Dionne so aptly labels them)
> demonstrates that
> >> this religious connection can attach to a materialist ideology as
> >> well as a transcendentalist one. The mistake Harris and
> company make
> >> is in thinking that their choices are purely rational and that
> >> everyone should believe exactly as they do. (Sounds like some
> >> religious fundamentalists to me.)
> >>
> >> In this sense, I think the issue does touch significantly
> on religion
> >> and law.
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> >
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:58:10 -0400
> >> Subject: Re: "Mormon Student, Justice, ACLU Join Up"
> >> To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
> >>
> >> I'd welcome an on-list discussion of this matter, with
> >> Eugene's permission of course.
> >>
> >> Bobby
> >>
> >> Robert Justin Lipkin
> >> Professor of Law
> >> Widener University School of Law
> >> Delaware
> >> */
> >> /**/Ratio Juris/*, Contributor:
> http://ratiojuris.blogspot.com/*/*/
> >> Essentially Contested America/*, *Editor-In-Chief
> >> *http://www.essentiallycontestedamerica.org//*
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> >
> >> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com
> >>
> >>
> >
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00000982>.
> >
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> --- Discover the new Windows Vista Learn more!
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> >> RE>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
> To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To
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