Dear Marty, Thank you for your response, and my apologies: rereading your earlier post, I can see that I misunderstood you. I'm glad we agree on a number of important points where I'd imagined we didn't.
That said, I hope you'll also agree that my misunderstanding was understandable. The ideas I incorrectly ascribed to you didn't come from my imagination. I've heard them expressed by very smart, very educated people, and there are large parts of the legal academy where I suspect that they or something like them is assumed to be the opinion of all clear-thinking people. I think that's a big problem--a real obstacle to reaching sensible resolutions to these conflicts. One last question: you claim repeatedly that not many religious institutions discriminate on these bases right now. That's surprising to me. Do you know if anyone has written about it? Assuming it's true, I wonder to what extent it's a consequence of gay marriage not having been legally recognized--of these institutions incorporating the word "marriage" into their codes of conduct and letting the law of marriage do the discriminating for them. If that's what's been going on, then I suspect in the short term we'll see more institutions explicitly discriminating along these lines, not less, as some institutions amend their rules so as not to accept legally recognized gay marriages. Best, and thanks again, Alan On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 8:11 AM, Marty Lederman <lederman.ma...@gmail.com> wrote: > Alan: Thank you for that very thoughtful and candid reply. > > > > I apologize if my wording in response to Eugene's post was infelicitous, > or insensitive, in any way. I was trying to be very careful *not* to > suggest that all religious objectors would "change their minds." I agree > with you that some will not. > > > > And I certainly did not write, and did not mean to suggest in the > slightest, any of the following: > > > > -- that religious beliefs are "simply" a "product of time and culture" > > > > -- "that religious beliefs opposing same-sex sexual relationships are > purely an irrational bias" > > > > -- that religious beliefs on this question are dependent upon, or > necessarily reflect, "bigotry" (or "animus," for that matter) > > > > -- that anyone "misunderstands" their own religion > > > > or > > > > -- that conservative Christian teachings about sex have the same place in > the church that former teachings about race did. > > > > Indeed, I don't *believe *any of those things to be true, and so I surely > would not argue for them or intend to suggest them in this thread. > > > > Of course, as your response acknowledges, religious beliefs of many > individuals (not all)--and of many religious institutions--do change as a > result of shifts in social practices, which tend to be followed by shifts > in understandings of human nature. These shifts sometimes occur even with > respect to theological commitments that have long been viewed as based in > transcendent truth. The examples are legion--within my faith, the Catholic > Church, the LDS, etc.; I know I don't need to belabor the point. The Notre > Dame video, making great efforts to attract LGBT students, is merely the > latest example. But it's of a piece with many, many other, similar > trends. Even so, I agree with you that after a rapid change in the views > of most people, some portion of the population is likely to maintain its > religiously grounded views about homosexuality. (Your 20% seems like a > reasonable guess about that number.) > > > > The point I was trying to make, however, was not about the cause, or the > rate, of changes in individuals' religious beliefs. What I wrote was that, > if and when antidiscrimination laws are extended more broadly to sexual > orientation, "very few" of today's religious *organizations* will be > "legally and socially marginalized" because "they will have voluntarily > ended *their discriminatory practices*." Indeed, as I emphasized in > later posts, even today there are very few such organizations that openly > engage in such discriminatory practices (other than as to ministerial > positions). And that number will only diminish--probably to a small > handful--by the time Congress gets around to amending Title VII and Title > IX to cover sexual orientation. > > > > I hope that better explains what I was getting at. I certainly did not > mean to disparage or trivialize anyone's sincerely held religious beliefs. > > > Best, > > > Marty > > > > On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Alan Hurst <alan.hu...@aya.yale.edu> > wrote: > >> Thanks to Marty and everyone else for the discussion here. I'm finding it >> very informative. >> >> I wanted to respond briefly, however, to Marty's wager below: >> >> And Eugene, I'd be willing to wager that very few of today's conservative >>> Christians' organizations will be "legally and socially marginalized" >>> at that point, because by then they, too, will have voluntarily ended their >>> discriminatory practices. >>> >> >> I have two quick thoughts about this. First, I think you should consider >> a bit more carefully how that argument sounds to someone whose religious >> beliefs include the rejection of same-sex sexual relationships as immoral. >> "You shouldn't worry about the long run because your religions will just >> change their minds on this issue anyway" suggests at least one of the >> following two ideas: >> >> --that religious beliefs are simply a product of time and culture, with >> no basis in any transcendent truth and no capacity to resist broader >> cultural movements. >> >> --that religious beliefs opposing same-sex sexual relationships are >> purely an irrational bias and, like religious opposition to interracial >> marriage, will gradually vanish as gay marriage becomes commonplace and >> believers' aversion to gay relationships is worn down by familiarity. >> >> You may in fact believe these two ideas, and although I don't, I'm >> certainly not going to change your mind here. But I do hope you'll consider >> for a moment how they sound to believers who disagree with you. In essence, >> when you say, "Your religion will change on this issue," you're saying >> either, "The beliefs you've built your life on have no basis in reality" or >> "Your bigotry has led you to misunderstand your own religion." True or >> false, these two thoughts are quite the opposite of comforting to a >> believer who worries about this issue. They do as much as anything to >> persuade believers that people like you really don't understand religion >> and really are out to get them. >> >> Second, if I were a betting man, I'd take your wager. Partially I'd take >> it because, well, the analogy between religious racism and religious >> heteronormativity is at most superficially accurate. Conservative Christian >> teachings about sex just have a much different place in the church than >> American Christians' teachings about race ever did--theologically, >> functionally, socially, historically, etc. These things are simply not the >> same. Douthat wrote briefly (but I think accurately) about this here: >> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/rosss-douthat-interview-with-a-christian.html?_r=0 >> >> And partially I'd take your wager because religion has always been an >> international phenomenon, and like everything else it's getting to be more >> so. The heart of Christianity is moving from Europe and North America to >> Latin America, Africa, and Asia. Within a few decades, China may be home to >> more Christians than any other country. American Catholicism has never been >> centrally important to the Catholic church, and even we Mormons now have >> more members outside the U.S. than inside. Unless the gay marriage movement >> catches on in a lot of places where it's not yet had much traction, I think >> these Christians abroad are going to give some ballast to American >> Christian opposition to gay marriage. To some extent it's already >> happened--see, for example, the ties springing up between conservative >> American Episcopalians and African Anglicans. >> >> My prediction? I think religious opposition to gay marriage is going to >> be like religious opposition to premarital sex. The polls will move more >> rapidly than anyone once thought possible, and in a decade or two only 20% >> of Americans will think gay marriage is immoral. And then the graph will >> bottom out, and you're going to have about 20% of Americans still thinking >> that for a long time. >> >> So, no, I don't think these issues are going away. >> >> Best, >> >> Alan >> >> (My apologies, but I took an hour that I didn't really have to write >> this, and I don't know when I'll be able to post again. But Marty, if you >> respond, I promise I'll get back to you eventually.) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see >> http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw >> >> Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as >> private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are >> posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or >> wrongly) forward the messages to others. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are > posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or > wrongly) forward the messages to others. >
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