Hey John, I like where your head is at - great list.
Regarding: > Builds adaptors so that bugs are automatically entered in tracking systems Does the industry have: 1) A standard schema for findings, root causes, vulnerabilities, etc, and the inter-relation of these key terms (and others?) 2) Standardized API's for allowing different risk systems for correlate this data? Or is it, right now, mostly proprietary glue? Curious... Also, how do you build adaptors so that manual processes are automatically entered in a tracking system? Are you just talking about content management ststems to make it easy to manual reviewers to enter data into rosk mangement software? Anyhow, I like where your head is at and it definately got me thinking. - Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Brennan - OWASP" <t...@owasp.org> To: "John Steven" <jste...@cigital.com>; <sc-l-boun...@securecoding.org>; "Benjamin Tomhave" <list-s...@secureconsulting.net>; "Secure Code MailingList" <SC-L@securecoding.org> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [SC-L] BSIMM: Confessions of a Software SecurityAlchemist(informIT) > John Stevens for Cyber Czar! > > I have "Elect J.Stevens" bumper stickers printing, I retooled my Free > Kevin sticker press. > > Well stated ;) have a great weekend! > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Steven <jste...@cigital.com> > > Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:35:01 > To: Benjamin Tomhave<list-s...@secureconsulting.net>; Secure Code > MailingList<SC-L@securecoding.org> > Subject: Re: [SC-L] BSIMM: Confessions of a Software Security Alchemist > (informIT) > > > Tom, Ben, All, > > I thought I'd offer more specifics in an attempt to clarify. I train > people here to argue your position Ben: security vulnerabilities don't > count unless they affect development. To this end, we've specifically > had success with the following approaches: > > [Integrate Assessment Practices] > [What?] > Wrap the assessment activities (both tool-based and manual techniques) in > a process that: > * Normalizes findings under a common reporting vocabulary and > demonstrates impact > * Include SAST, DAST, scanning, manual, out-sourced, & ALL findings > producers in this framework > * Anchors findings in either a developmental root cause or other > software artifact: > * Use Case, reqs, design, spec, etc. > * Builds adaptors so that bugs are automatically entered in tracking > systems > * Adaptors should include both tool-based and manual findings > * Calculates impact with an agreed-upon mechanism that rates security > risk with other factors: > * Functional release criteria > * Other non-security non-functional requirements > > [Realistic?] > I believe so. Cigital's more junior consultants work on these very tasks, > and they don't require an early-adopter to fund or agree to them. There's > plenty of tooling out there to help with the adapters and plenty of > presentations/papers on risk (http://www.riskanalys.is), normalizing > findings ( http://cwe.mitre.org/.) , and assessment methodology > (http://www.cigital.com/papers/download/j15bsi.pdf). > > [Panacea?] > No. I've done research and consulting in functional testing. If you think > security is powerless against development, try spending a few years in a > tester's shoes! Functionality may be king for development and PMs, but > I've found that functional testing has little to no power. While a lack of > features may prevent software from going out the door, very rarely do I > find that functional testing can implement an effective "go/no-go" gate > from their seat in the org. That's why testing efforts seek muscle from > their friend Security (and its distant cousins under quality "Load and > Performance") to stop releases from going out the door. > > There's no reason NOT to integrate with testing efforts, reporting, and > groups: we should. There's every reason security should adhere to the same > interface everyone else does with developers (let them produce code and > let them consume bugs)... I think the steps I outlined under 'what' bring > us closer. I enjoyed Guy's book, but I don't think we need to (or can > expect to) flip organizational precedent and behavior on its head to make > progress. > > [Steering] > The above scenario doesn't allow explicitly for two key input/outputs > from the software security ecosystem: > > > 1. Handling ultra-high-priority issues in real time > 2. Adjusting and evolving to changing threat landscapes > > I've long suggested establishing a steering committee for this. > > [What?] > Establish a steering committee on which a software security, dev, > architecture, operations, and corporate risk sit. These folk should manage > the risk-model, scoring, security standards that drive the assessment > verification standard, and the definition of both short-term and > longer-term mitigating strategies. I'd argue that you'd like Industry > representation too. That organization could come in written form (like the > Top N lists) or in the form of consulting or a panel. > > When incidents or firefights come into play, absolutely allow them to be > handled out of band (albeit through a documented process), but! Not until > they've been rated with the agreed-upon model. > > [Realistic?] > Yes. I have several clients that use this structure. I speak with > non-clients that do the same. Data gathering for scoring and > prioritization is easy if you've done the steps in the previous section. > The operations guys help you grade the pertinence of your efforts to what > they're seeing 'in the wild' too. > > [Panacea?] > Does a steering committee help you respond with agility to a high-priority > threat in real time? Not explicitly. But, it does help if your > organizational stakeholders already have a working relationship and a > mutual respect. Also: I think one root cause of the underlying discomfort > (or dislike) with people's perspectives on this thread has been: > > "OK, Fine Gary... you don't like Top N lists... So what do you do?" > > Well, in my mind... The above answers that question. > > [Assessment and Tools] > Do I believe that the normalized findings will emerge only from static > analysis (or any other kind of vulnerability detection tool)? Absolutely > not. People who follow my writing know I expect dramatic(ally high and > low) numbers to be associated with tools. Let's summarize my data. > Organizations can expect: > > > * Static analysis tools to account for 15-20% of their total findings, > out of the box > * An initial false positive rate as high as 75-99% from a static > analysis tool, without tuning > * Less than 09% code coverage (by even shallow coverage metrics) from > pen-testing tools > > Qualitatively, I can tell you that I expect an overwhelming majority of > static analysis results produced in an organization to come from > customization of their adopted product. > > Simply: if you base your world view on only those things a tool (any > tool) produces, you're world view is as narrow as a Neo-con's-and will > prove about as ineffective. The same is true of those who narrow their > scope to the OWASP Top-10 or the SANS Top 25. > > [Top N Redux] > Some have left the impression that starting with a Top N list is of no > use. Please don't think I'm in this camp. In my last two presentations > I've indicated, "If you're starting from scratch these lists (or lists > intrinsically baked into a tool's capabilities for detection) are a great > place to start." and if you can't afford frequent industry interaction-use > Top N lists as a proxy for it. They're valuable, but like anything, only > to a point. > > For me, this discussion will remain circular until we think about it in > terms of measured, iterative organizational improvement. Why? Because when > an organization focuses on getting beyond a "Top N" list it will just > create their own organization-specific "Top N" list :-) If they're smart > though, they'll call it a dash board and vie for a promotion ;-) > >>From the other side? People building Top N lists know they're not a >>panacea, but also know that a lot of organizations simply can't stomach >>the kind of emotional investment that bsimm (and the ilk) come with. > > This leaves me with the following: > > [Conclusions] > Top N lists are neither necessary nor sufficient for organization success > Top N lists are necessary but not sufficient for industry success > Maturity models are neither necessary nor sufficient for organizational > success > Maturity models are necessary but not sufficient for industry success > > Always avail yourself of what the industry produces; > Never confine yourself to a single industry artifact dogmatically; > Whatever you consume from industry, improve it by making it your own; > Where-ever your are in your journey, continue to improve iteratively. > > [Related Perennial Rabbit Holes] (bonus) > Bugs vs. Flaws: John Steven'06 - > http://www.mail-archive.com/sc-l@securecoding.org/msg00888.html > Security Vs. Quality: Cowan '02 - > http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/98/304766 > > ---- > John Steven > Senior Director; Advanced Technology Consulting > Direct: (703) 404-5726 Cell: (703) 727-4034 > Key fingerprint = 4772 F7F3 1019 4668 62AD 94B0 AE7F EEF4 62D5 F908 > > Blog: http://www.cigital.com/justiceleague > Papers: http://www.cigital.com/papers/jsteven > > http://www.cigital.com > Software Confidence. Achieved. > > > On 3/19/09 7:28 PM, "Benjamin Tomhave" <list-s...@secureconsulting.net> > wrote: > > Why are we differentiating between "software" and "security" bugs? It > seems to me that all bugs are software bugs, and how quickly they're > tackled is a matter of prioritizing the work based on severity, impact, > and ease of resolution. It seems to me that, while it is problematic > that security testing has been excluded historically, our goal should > not be to establish yet another security-as-bolt-on state, but rather > leapfrog to the desired end-state where QA testing includes security > testing as well as functional testing. In fact, one could even argue > that security testing IS functional testing, but anyway... > > If you're going to innovate, you must as well jump the curve*. > > -ben > > * see Kawasaki "Art of Innovation" > http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2007/06/art_of_innovati.html > > Gary McGraw wrote: >> Aloha Jim, >> >> I agree that security bugs should not necessarily take precedence >> over other bugs. Most of the initiatives that we observed cycled ALL >> security bugs into the standard bug tracking system (most of which >> rank bugs by some kind of severity rating). Many initiatives put >> more weight on security bugs...note the term "weight" not "drop >> everything and run around only working on security." See the CMVM >> practice activities for more. >> >> The BSIMM helps to measure and then evolve a software security >> initiative. The top N security bugs activity is one of an arsenal of >> tools built and used by the SSG to strategically guide the rest of >> their software security initiative. Making this a "top N bugs of any >> kind" list might make sense for some organizations, but is not >> something we would likely observe by studying the SSG and the >> software security initiative. Perhaps we suffer from the "looking >> for the keys under the streetlight" problem. >> >> gem >> >> >> On 3/19/09 2:31 PM, "Jim Manico" <j...@manico.net> wrote: >> >>> The top N lists we observed among the 9 were BUG lists only. So >>> that means that in general at least half of the defects were not >>> being identified on the "most wanted" list using that BSIMM set of >>> activities. >> >> This sounds very problematic to me. There are many standard software >> bugs that are much more critical to the enterprise than just security >> bugs. It seems foolhardy to do risk assessment on security bugs only >> - I think we need to bring the worlds of software development and >> security analysis together more. Divided we (continue to) fail. >> >> And Gary, this is not a critique of just your comment, but of >> WebAppSec at large. >> >> - Jim >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary McGraw" <g...@cigital.com> >> To: "Steven M. Christey" <co...@linus.mitre.org> Cc: "Sammy Migues" >> <smig...@cigital.com>; "Michael Cohen" <mco...@cigital.com>; "Dustin >> Sullivan" <dustin.sulli...@informit.com>; "Secure Code Mailing List" >> <SC-L@securecoding.org> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 2:50 AM >> Subject: Re: [SC-L] BSIMM: Confessions of a Software Security >> Alchemist (informIT) >> >> >>> Hi Steve, >>> >>> Sorry for falling off the thread last night. Waiting for the posts >>> to clear was not a great idea. >>> >>> The top N lists we observed among the 9 were BUG lists only. So >>> that means that in general at least half of the defects were not >>> being identified on the "most wanted" list using that BSIMM set of >>> activities. You are correct to point out that the "Architecture >>> Analysis" practice has other activities meant to ferret out those >>> sorts of flaws. >>> >>> I asked my guys to work on a flaws collection a while ago, but I >>> have not seen anything yet. Canuck? >>> >>> There is an important difference between your CVE data which is >>> based on externally observed bugs (imposed on vendors by security >>> types mostly) and internal bug data determined using static >>> analysis or internal testing. I would be very interested to know >>> whether Microsoft and the CVE consider the same bug #1 on internal >>> versus external rating systems. The difference is in the term >>> "reported for" versus "discovered internally during SDL activity". >>> >>> gem >>> >>> http://www.cigital.com/~gem >>> >>> >>> On 3/18/09 6:14 PM, "Steven M. Christey" <co...@linus.mitre.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 18 Mar 2009, Gary McGraw wrote: >>> >>>> Many of the top N lists we encountered were developed through the >>>> consistent use of static analysis tools. >>> Interesting. Does this mean that their top N lists are less likely >>> to include design flaws? (though they would be covered under >>> various other BSIMM activities). >>> >>>> After looking at millions of lines of code (sometimes >>>> constantly), a ***real*** top N list of bugs emerges for an >>>> organization. Eradicating number one is an obvious priority. >>>> Training can help. New number one...lather, rinse, repeat. >>> I believe this is reflected in public CVE data. Take a look at the >>> bugs that are being reported for, say, Microsoft or major Linux >>> vendors or most any product with a long history, and their current >>> number 1's are not the same as the number 1's of the past. >>> >>> - Steve >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Secure Coding >>> mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, >>> subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List >>> charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php >>> SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC >>> (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the >>> software security community. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ Secure Coding mailing >> list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, >> etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at >> - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and >> moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, >> non-commercial service to the software security community. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > -- > Benjamin Tomhave, MS, CISSP > fal...@secureconsulting.net > LI: http://www.linkedin.com/in/btomhave > Blog: http://www.secureconsulting.net/ > Photos: http://photos.secureconsulting.net/ > Web: http://falcon.secureconsulting.net/ > > [ Random Quote: ] > "Concern for man and his fate must always form the chief interest of all > technical endeavors. Never forget this in the midst of your diagrams and > equations." > Albert Einstein > _______________________________________________ > Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org > List information, subscriptions, etc - > http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l > List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php > SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) > as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. > _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org > List information, subscriptions, etc - > http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l > List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php > SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) > as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org > List information, subscriptions, etc - > http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l > List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php > SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) > as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ Secure Coding mailing list (SC-L) SC-L@securecoding.org List information, subscriptions, etc - http://krvw.com/mailman/listinfo/sc-l List charter available at - http://www.securecoding.org/list/charter.php SC-L is hosted and moderated by KRvW Associates, LLC (http://www.KRvW.com) as a free, non-commercial service to the software security community. _______________________________________________
