Re: Kudos! [was Looking for an experienced Linux system administrator]
VK wrote: As a long-term [~ 9 years] IGLU maillist watcher I'd like to say Kudos to all participants! This time we see a mature, in-depth and fruitful discussion. Raather ;-). But most people did come around in the end, did they not. In any case, what DOES a System Admin cost these days? I am getting really weird numbers, trying to look at the various sallary comparison sites. What would you (and no, I am NOT including the very old experienced hands like Geoff and myself ;-) would ask for a system admin position? And no - this is NOT an idle question ;-). Marc = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kudos! [was Looking for an experienced Linux system administrator]
Hi Marc,
Full-time Sys admins cost from NIS 40 without car/telephone to NIS 80 with
car/telephone per hour. There is precious little relation between the
quality of the employee and what you pay. I'd say that the average Linux
sys admin with three to four years of experience gets NIS 58 per hour plus
keren hishtalmut, plus a telephone and car including expenses. By
average I am taking into account public sector and private sector
employees. The universities pay more than average rates IMHO, but often do
not pay benefits or keren hishtalmut. Rates for temporary employees are
also higher.
- yba
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005, Marc A. Volovic wrote:
VK wrote:
As a long-term [~ 9 years] IGLU maillist watcher I'd like to say Kudos to
all participants!
This time we see a mature, in-depth and fruitful discussion.
Raather ;-).
But most people did come around in the end, did they not.
In any case, what DOES a System Admin cost these days?
I am getting really weird numbers, trying to look at the various sallary
comparison sites. What would you (and no, I am NOT including the very old
experienced hands like Geoff and myself ;-) would ask for a system admin
position?
And no - this is NOT an idle question ;-).
Marc
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Re: Kudos! [was Looking for an experienced Linux system administrator]
Thanks for the answer, Jonathan. Truth be told, the figures you quote seem horridly low. NIS40? The poor samin is getting (assuming something close to a full time position) sub NIS8k/month. Is this not starvation level? The average NIS58/hour + socials (which translates to NIS 81 total with socials factored in) is very low, also. Ouch. Poor samins. :-) I beg you to reconsider... Well... I know, I know. I saw worse, actually, but not by far. Marc Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote: Hi Marc, Full-time Sys admins cost from NIS 40 without car/telephone to NIS 80 with car/telephone per hour. There is precious little relation between the quality of the employee and what you pay. I'd say that the average Linux sys admin with three to four years of experience gets NIS 58 per hour plus keren hishtalmut, plus a telephone and car including expenses. By average I am taking into account public sector and private sector employees. The universities pay more than average rates IMHO, but often do not pay benefits or keren hishtalmut. Rates for temporary employees are also higher. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kudos! [was Looking for an experienced Linux system administrator]
Hi Marc,
See inlines below.
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005, Marc A. Volovic wrote:
Thanks for the answer, Jonathan.
Truth be told, the figures you quote seem horridly low. NIS40? The poor samin
is getting (assuming something close to a full time position) sub
NIS8k/month.
Is this not starvation level?
That depends on the capabilities of the individual. If the individual does
not have enough experience or adequate personality resouces for you to
send him to customer sites without supervision, which is how most
sys-admins are for the first 18 months, then they are not worth much, if
anything. There are plenty of sys admins like this around. They gravitate
towards public sector employment such as universities and schools where
there is very little supervision of the their productivity.
The average NIS58/hour + socials (which translates to NIS 81 total with
socials factored in) is very low, also. Ouch. Poor samins.
:-) I beg you to reconsider... Well... I know, I know. I saw worse, actually,
but not by far.
Look at the Horaat Shaa of the Chaskal. The prices that they are
paying for Linux and other non-MSCE sys-admins is between NIS 92 and NIS
190. If that's what the contractor is getting, then the employee is
getting a bruto of between NIS 46 and NIS 95 at most, including benefits
but not car. That's how the majority of the market is working.
I admit that the majority of the readers of this list would probably
command much higher pay, but they are not representative of the people out
there actually doing sys admin.
- yba
Marc
Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:
Hi Marc,
Full-time Sys admins cost from NIS 40 without car/telephone to NIS 80 with
car/telephone per hour. There is precious little relation between the
quality of the employee and what you pay. I'd say that the average Linux
sys admin with three to four years of experience gets NIS 58 per hour plus
keren hishtalmut, plus a telephone and car including expenses. By average
I am taking into account public sector and private sector employees. The
universities pay more than average rates IMHO, but often do not pay
benefits or keren hishtalmut. Rates for temporary employees are also
higher.
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Re: Kudos! [was Looking for an experienced Linux system administrator]
Hi Geoffrey,
For NIS per month multiply by 185 to get the full-time monthly bruto rate.
Full-time means about 45 hours per week. The rates I quoted do not include
taxes. They assume that the employer is paying 7.5%/2.5% keren hishtalmut,
16 days of vacation per year on top of normal holidays, minimum havraa,
and 5%/8.33% pensia/pitsuim.
Regards,
- yba
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 11:30:06AM +0200, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:
Hi Marc,
Full-time Sys admins cost from NIS 40 without car/telephone to NIS 80 with
car/telephone per hour. There is precious little relation between the
quality of the employee and what you pay. I'd say that the average Linux
sys admin with three to four years of experience gets NIS 58 per hour plus
keren hishtalmut, plus a telephone and car including expenses. By
Could you please restate that in NIS per month. Do not include taxes paid
by the employer, but do list benefits that you expect to get such as:
keren hishtalmut, telephone, car, vacation, yom kef, additional
health insurance, lunch, snacks, etc.
Also if you would be so kind, as to tell us how many hours a week you
expect to work, I would appreciate it greately. That seems to vary more
than anything else.
Geoff.
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Re: Kudos! [was Looking for an experienced Linux system administrator]
On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 12:05:21PM +0200, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote: The average NIS58/hour + socials (which translates to NIS 81 total with socials factored in) is very low, also. Ouch. Poor samins. :-) I beg you to reconsider... Well... I know, I know. I saw worse, actually, but not by far. Look at the Horaat Shaa of the Chaskal. The prices that they are paying for Linux and other non-MSCE sys-admins is between NIS 92 and NIS 190. If that's what the contractor is getting, then the employee is getting a bruto of between NIS 46 and NIS 95 at most, including benefits but not car. That's how the majority of the market is working. There's a different way to look at this; according to these numbers, the system administration service is worth 17,020 to 35,520 NIS/month to the employer (taking your 185 hour work month). So when there is a direct employee on the receiving end --- not a contractor --- they can expect to receive anywhere between 13,500 and 28,000 NIS, gross, per month. (This is an approximation done by taking 25% employer overhead, instead of just the 20.33% of social benefits.) I admit that the majority of the readers of this list would probably command much higher pay, but they are not representative of the people out there actually doing sys admin. But it would seem that anyone here who is doing system administration work for a contractor and is out of their useless stage should do some thinking and see if they can find an organization that is regularly in need of 185 hours/month of system administration. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Kudos! [was Looking for an experienced Linux system administrator]
Hi Adam,
See inlines below.
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005, Adam Morrison wrote:
On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 12:05:21PM +0200, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:
The average NIS58/hour + socials (which translates to NIS 81 total with
socials factored in) is very low, also. Ouch. Poor samins.
:-) I beg you to reconsider... Well... I know, I know. I saw worse,
actually, but not by far.
Look at the Horaat Shaa of the Chaskal. The prices that they are
paying for Linux and other non-MSCE sys-admins is between NIS 92 and NIS
190. If that's what the contractor is getting, then the employee is
getting a bruto of between NIS 46 and NIS 95 at most, including benefits
but not car. That's how the majority of the market is working.
There's a different way to look at this; according to these numbers, the
system administration service is worth 17,020 to 35,520 NIS/month to the
employer (taking your 185 hour work month). So when there is a direct
employee on the receiving end --- not a contractor --- they can expect
to receive anywhere between 13,500 and 28,000 NIS, gross, per month.
(This is an approximation done by taking 25% employer overhead, instead
of just the 20.33% of social benefits.)
I believe that the above is not a a correct economic analysis for the
following reasons:
1. The prices that contractors are willing to accept (as reflected in
the michraz) are based on the prevailing cost of the employees, not the
opposite.
2. The contractor provides an employment service to the business. That
is, the contractor screens the employees and matches the employee's skills
to the requirements of the project or business. This service is worth
money.
3. Businesses are willing to pay a premium to a contractor over what they
are willing to pay for an individual because the contractor provides them
with alternative personnel and other flexibility if an employee cannot do
the job for any reason.
4. Only a contracting company completely frees the business purchasing the
services from the obligations of the employer-employee relationship as
defined by Israeli law. Neither non-incorporated or even incorporated
individuals have this advantage even though according to the dry leter of
the law you might think they would.
The above points are often not understood by the engineers who work
through contractors at places such as Motorola or IAI for example. This
often results in the mistaken impression that the contractor is only a
pimp ripping off the employee, which *sometimes* is the case but usually
is not.
I admit that the majority of the readers of this list would probably
command much higher pay, but they are not representative of the people out
there actually doing sys admin.
But it would seem that anyone here who is doing system administration
work for a contractor and is out of their useless stage should do some
thinking and see if they can find an organization that is regularly in
need of 185 hours/month of system administration.
These organizations are rare. Another option for higher qualified
sys-admins is to find an organization that has several low-level
sys-admins and needs one guru level admin to back them up.
I think that the more experienced members of this list will vouch for me
when I say that finding permanent, full-time, Linux sys-admin work at the
NIS 16-20K (bruto) range is possible but not easy in the current market.
Regards,
- yba
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Kudos! [was Looking for an experienced Linux system administrator]
As a long-term [~ 9 years] IGLU maillist watcher I'd like to say Kudos to all participants! This time we see a mature, in-depth and fruitful discussion. Rgds, Vitaly = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
