Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[vester . thacker]

On Sat, May 18, 2024, at 00:51, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> I love this article very much.  Unhelpful, bossy blowhards should
> experience exactly these emotions.  My favorite part was the accusation
> of "cancel culture," which I have learned is Boomer code for
> "accountability."  They really hate that shit!

I'm pleased it got a conversation going. The topic needed to be addressed. I 
took it down as I realized that when dealing with others expressing 
narcissistic tendencies, the article would not have any impact on their 
behavior anyway. I think I can see now who the narcissists are, as they double 
down on their abusive behavior.  Abusers often don't realize they're abusing 
anyone. However, victims of their abuse do recognize it. 

> If 9front has constructed a culture where someone who calls themselves
> "Innovator Harnessing the Power of Open Source: Transforming Businesses,
> Empowering Solutions" does not feel welcome, then I am profoundly
> satsified with that culture, and commend everyone involved in its
> creation.

I fed my resume into an LLM and it suggested that tagline. I was amused and 
used it.   

> Anyway, just for the record, nobody in the 9front project has any ill
> will toward 9legacy.  Technical concerns like p9sk1, yes, but everyone
> agrees there should be *more* Plan 9 out there, not less.  We keep
> suggesting that people fork 9front as well, and make 9front Suit And Tie
> Edition, Empowering Harnessed Transformative Innovations, with all of
> the technical goodies and none of the humor or fun, but nobody seems to
> have the drive to make that happen.

I looked at behaviors and outcomes when making that assessment.

> If anyone wants help bootstrapping such a project, please let me know
> and I'll help however I can.  The existence of something like that might
> help deflect all the unfunded mandates people keep trying to demand of
> the 9front project, and create a nice home for the sorts of people whose
> primary qualifications are that they like to watch and they've been
> watching for decades.

9legacy can use a hand.

Dealing with a social issues on this mailing list is akin to standing in a 
summer sun, if I deal with them too long I'll become sun burned, and I'll find 
myself in need to step out of the sun to reduce the severity of the pain. If I 
can stop getting sun burned, my chances of contributing would improve. I often 
wonder how many more contributors there might have been if the environment were 
different. Fostering a better environment would help improve the chance for 
collaboration is what I'm saying. It seems that hiring someone to help do this 
for me is a better idea. That way I can step out of the sun. 

Take care.

Kind regards,
Vic

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[vester . thacker]

On Sat, May 18, 2024, at 01:26, Noam Preil wrote:
> The only company listed there is yours, no?
>
> That's not a good look.

On a long enough timeline, it will not matter.  

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[vester . thacker]

Ok, I'm back. I stopped by because I heard about the ruckus. I am not wrong 
about my sentiments. I am not submitting disinformation. I'm expressing my 
viewpoint based on my experience and what I've witnessed reading 9fans. Help do 
the right thing and help eliminate abusive behavior.  The article I wrote 
wasn't anything special.  9fans has years of evidence for additional claims. 
I'm grateful that the evidences exist online. If you want me to elaborate, I'll 
write about them. What I want to know is why abusive behavior permitted on the 
9fans mailing list? I do not mind exposing bad behavior to a much broader 
audience so that it can get the attention it deserves so that positive change 
can occur.  Quite honestly, the Plan 9 community would be better for it.

I'm hoping change will happen. It will be good for those that want to 
contribute. It is not about control but rather it is about helping others. 
Putting others down isn't helpful nor being friendly. For anyone that engages 
in abusive behavior, please consider getting professional help. Entitlement 
doesn't justify abuse.

I do not write to be spiteful. I write because I care, and I hope to promote 
positive change.

Sincerely,
Vic


On Fri, May 17, 2024, at 23:49, Jacob Moody wrote:
> Hit the enter key a bit early...
> This is directed at Vic, if that is not clear already.
> To everyone else who called me out for assuming malice on victor's part 
> because he was "just trying to help", does this not
> make my claim more obvious now? This likewise is including AI bullshit, 
> and I suspect my claims about his other mails
> being LLM trash are also correct too. There was no apology owed and 
> none should have been given. This is about the
> furthest thing from "helping" that there is.
>
> To be direct, I have found the misinformation about 9front on this list 
> to be at best highly incompetent and at
> worst actively malicious to spread misinformation. Is this really what 
> our resident "9front-haters" are going to rally behind?
> Like I respect that some people don't like us, that's fine. I get that 
> some people have some differences but AI generated misinformation
> is downright insulting. The demands that 9front do something or change 
> their behavior to match some noncontributor's opinion here is
> frankly also insulting our time. I've generally held respect for the 
> people here who have been around a lot longer, while I may disagree
> I will read and think about what is said here. However is this is the 
> type of behavior that is defended (and therefore encouraged) I am
> not interested at all.
>
> I'll be around on this list to argue against the misinformation 
> campaigns, it is clear that if we were to go away this type of 
> misinformation
> would run rampant. I really expected better.
>
> - Moody
>
> On 5/17/24 09:14, Jacob Moody wrote:
>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f/
>> 
>> This linked-in article is frankly disgusting, I suggest you take this 
>> incorrect garbage down.
>> 
>> 
>> On 5/17/24 07:43, Samuel Reader via 9fans wrote:
>>> It is only a first draft, and it is not a finished product. I'll correct 
>>> the mistakes found. 
>>>
>>> Thank you for the kind feedback.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 17th, 2024 at 9:31 PM, qwx via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri May 17 13:33:21 +0200 2024, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> an other interesting reading :
>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm appalled and frankly furious about this article. It's blatant
>>>> slander which can affect me in my professional career. I'm a phD
>>>> candidate and my work is based on Plan 9 and developed on 9front; I
>>>> was going to present it at iwp9 but could not once the venue was
>>>> changed as it rendered it incompatible with my time table.
>>>>
>>>> The article lacks references to many of its claims, and the remaining
>>>> ones directly contradict its points. The Register article is even
>>>> linked incorrectly. A superficial reader would not bother to try to
>>>> follow the links or find the article. For me this is clearly
>>>> malicious attention-seeking.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding the pdf posted earlier[1], almost all of it is factually
>>>> 

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

[vester . thacker]

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 22:18, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> Fromm Crunchbase:
>
> Nantahala Outdoor Center — Nantahala Outdoor Center is a sports company 
> offering whitewater rafting, mountain biking, and flatwater paddling.
>
> Nantahala Bank & Trust Company — Nantahala Bank & Trust Company is a 
> financial service company offering & lending mortgages and loans and 
> other financial services.
>
> Nantahala Capital Management — Nantahala Capital Management is a hedge fund.
>
> Nantahala Real Estate Company — Nantahala Real Estate Company provides 
> property management, consulting, home selling, and buying services.
>
> GHSS Manathala — GHSS Manathala is a secondary education school.
>
>
>
> On 5/15/24 01:48, John the Scott wrote:
>> finding nothing on google for Nantahala.  any links?
>> 
>> -john
>> 
>> On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 3:42 AM  wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you, Sirjofri, nice idea.
>>>
>>> There are two private U.S. companies that are investing, developing, and 
>>> using a closed source Plan 9 distribution called ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9).  The 
>>> companies have been in existence since 2020.
>>>
>>> Nantahala Holdings, LLC
>>> Nantahala Operations, LLC (dba Nantahala Systems)
>>>
>>> Vic
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 17:10, sirjofri wrote:
 Hey all,

 Just about one topic mentioned by ibrahim:

 You mentioned that 9front can't be plan 9 in your perspective because
 of this licensing and the "origin" of the licensing.

> 9front isn't plan9 from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release with 
> patches for the files from sources I can be sure that those aren't taken 
> from open source projects by copy and paste.
 [1]

 I would make a big difference between what plan 9 is and what the
 licenses are. Software doesn't care about licenses. People do (and they
 should!).

 So what is plan 9 even? Can we compare it to UNIX™ or unix or posix?
 Who knows...

 I guess I could say a lot more about that topic, but I guess that's
 enough and you can puzzle everything else yourself.

 [1] (I would be very careful with such bold words. I feel like 9front
 people have heard this phrase a lot and it's probably very thin ice for
 a few people.)

 ---

 About another topic: you mentioned that plan 9 is in use for commercial
 products, and you explicitly mention german medical sensors. I've never
 heard about that and I'd like to learn more, as well as about other
 companies who actually use plan 9.

 Everything I always hear in the industry is that plan 9 is outdated and
 nobody uses it and nobody wants to hear about it. I only know of a
 single company that uses it (coraid), plus a few little projects by taw
 that could evolve into commercial products.

 I sometimes thought about building a list of companies that use plan 9
 technology, just so people can get involved with them, and now that I'm
 searching for a new job that's even more interesting for me personally.
 (Not sure if I want to do plan 9 as $dayjob, but I could see it as an
 option.) That topic should end up in a new thread however (or even a
 DM).

 sirjofri
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
> -- 
>
> *Wes Kussmaul*
>
> *Reliable Identities, Inc.*
> an Authenticity Enterprise
> 738 Main Street
> Waltham, MA 02451 USA
> t: +1 781 790 1674
> m: +1 781 330 1881
> e: w...@reliableid.com 


Great, just pile on the hazing guys. You know how to make someone feel 
unwelcomed.

Vic

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[vester . thacker]

The complexity of communication in this medium often necessitates detailed 
discussions.  You highlighted the need for additional personnel to manage the 
workload (e.g. do the work).  From my perspective, this requires a well-defined 
vision, clear objectives, and a prioritized list of deliverables to align 
efforts effectively.  Currently, it seems the role of product managers is 
collectively held, though it's unclear who exactly is responsible.  Typically, 
a team of two or more individuals would focus on these deliverables.  In past 
projects, I've seen the use of a project board to keep everyone updated on 
tasks—an approach known as "information radiator" in project management.  I'm 
open to other methods if you had something different in mind that I may have 
overlooked.  If you are considering a meritocracy, I would recommend caution.  
Experience has shown that what we truly need is increased collaboration and 
unity, rather than a system that could potentially encourage competition and 
division.  I apologize if my message is obtuse, I am trying to keep this 
message concise, I can expound more for clarity.  I hope my explanation helps. 

Vic


On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 03:36, o...@eigenstate.org wrote:
> that's not what I said.
>
> Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm:
>> I agree that having a clear vision and charter is essential before forming a 
>> team. Regarding building an inclusive Plan 9 community that encompasses 
>> multiple groups, it's important to establish common goals and values that 
>> resonate with all members. What are your thoughts on creating open channels 
>> for dialogue and collaboration? How can we ensure that everyone feels valued 
>> and heard? This approach could foster a more cooperative and inclusive 
>> environment.
>> 
>> Vic
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 16:19, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
>> > "tl;dr: you need people doing the work before you can try
>> > to organize them; the way to get people doing the work is
>> >  to bootstrap it by doing work and showing value." [from Ori].
>> >  or
>> >  "Don't be the kid who can't play [whatever]ball but wants to teach
>> > everybody and be the team coach, just because he read a book."

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[vester . thacker]

Thank you, Hiro, for your insights.

I apologize to everyone for my intense and fervent approach; I acknowledge that 
I often overlook subtleties. To add a bit of humor, even my son has saved my 
contact as "Rambo" in his mobile phone. :-)

Vic


On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 00:55, hiro wrote:
> this is mostly wild speculation. further, the numbers are not
> representative at all.
> since the import of the (possibly redundent) 9k amd64 work from "labs"
> (which in this case might mean geoff+charles?) 2 years ago there were
> zero active developers contributing to 9legacy.
>
> please note, that stuff has been developed in the dark and without any
> kind of open community process, also not in 9legacy but in some other
> fork (that is unknown to me). it was pulled in by 9legacy but i have
> no clue from where and why.
> there was near zero communication about that other fork, and what it's
> plan was, or who might want to use 9k nowadays, and for what purposes.
> since this was not developed in the open and not discussed with 9front
> people we are at this point largely ignorant of what 9k can do. i
> would appreciate a more in-depth comparison if possible, though i fear
> 9k is about as dead as plan9 4th edition (and 9legacy for that matter)
> at this point. sorry for my doubts.
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2024 at 5:13 PM  wrote:
>>
>> My understanding is that the initial request came from a 9legacy member to 
>> the 9front community, and the responses were quite intriguing. It has led me 
>> to ponder how we might bridge the gap between these communities. There seems 
>> to be conflict on both sides, and for some reason, I hold 9front to higher 
>> standards—perhaps because of our more idealistic roots. The core mission of 
>> 9front was always to advance the Plan 9 tradition, but not at the cost of 
>> alienating others.
>>
>> From what I observe, there seem to be only a handful of active developers 
>> remaining in each group. Initially, I believed we had around 30 active 
>> developers in 9front and about 7 in 9legacy, but I now think I may have 
>> overestimated these numbers. It appears that many are staying on the 
>> sidelines, possibly due to past grievances, which could explain the 
>> responses I've seen. The developers who are active might be overextended, 
>> while those who are less active might feel marginalized.
>>
>> Vic
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 22:23, q...@nopenopenope.net wrote:
>> > On Sun May 12 14:43:17 +0200 2024, vester.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote:
>> >> I don't mind the ad hominem attacks.  I just hope things improve. I do 
>> >> find it ironic that I'm addressing the 9front community about 
>> >> collaboration and inclusiveness when I recall those as being two reasons 
>> >> for the inception of 9front.
>> >>
>> >> Vic
>> >
>> > You hit the nail on the head there.  Why *are* you addressing just the
>> > 9front community or assuming there is no willingness to collaborate on
>> > its part?  9legacy users so far have expressed interest in someone
>> > else porting dp9ik (David for instance) or demanded explanations about
>> > DES cracking (Richard) or asked for others to port or fix fossil on
>> > 9front (Lucio), but who explicitely said that they would like to put
>> > in some work themselves and collaborate with 9front people?  Maybe I'm
>> > beginning to misremember the rest of the thread, am I missing
>> > anything?  Could you point to *specific examples*?
>> >
>> > 9front users demand code because they've already put in a lot of work
>> > and it has been often ignored or dismissed, and because it would be up
>> > to them to backport it to 9legacy -- why would they do double duty for
>> > a system they don't use and a community which is generally not
>> > receptive to their work?  Also, do you realize that 9front right now
>> > has upwards of 10500 changes in the repository, after 13 years?
>> > Bringing 9legacy up to date as you've proposed would require a
>> > colossal amount of work, all just to obtain...  9front.  Do you
>> > believe it has diverged to the point where backporting hardware
>> > support, fixing bugs and broken or incomplete implementations and so
>> > on will result in anything other than what 9front already is?
>> >
>> > You yourself demand everyone, especially the 9front community, to make
>> > suggestions, start projects, etc.  What about you?  What do you
>> > suggest to do and which projects would you take part in?  That's what
>> > "just send the code" implies.  Promises don't fix bugs or help
>> > implement programs, nor help fix this one-sided conversation.
>> >
>> > I'm asking these questions yet I fear that they will meet radio
>> > silence or more empty walls of text, as it happens too often here
>> > when asking "why" or how it came to this.  I hope I'm wrong.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > qwx
>> >
>> > PS: I was about to hit send when I received Richard's mail.
>> > Richard, thank you for the constructive and detailed response.
>> > I hope this marks a turn of 

Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[vester . thacker]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I want to clarify that my intention is not 
to exert control or disrupt, but to foster better collaboration between 
communities.  I understand that there may be concerns about redundancy and 
approaches, which is why I believe a dialogue about our common goals and how 
best to achieve them is crucial.  I do not see much collaboration between 
9legacy and 9front.  From what I gather from this thread, it seems that one 
community wants to lord over another and not be helpful.  At least this is how 
it appears to a hobbyist like me.  It would be nice if things were more cordial 
and helpful. 

I am assuming everyone here is a hobbyist, so I speak as a hobbyist. It’s 
important to recognize that our shared interest in advancing the Plan 9 
community is at the heart of these discussions. I am here not for personal gain 
but to contribute positively. I think we all bring valuable perspectives that, 
when combined, can lead to innovative solutions that benefit everyone involved.

Let’s focus on how we can work together more effectively. I am open to 
suggestions and willing to step back where needed to allow for a more 
collective approach. I believe that through constructive dialogue and a shared 
commitment to our community’s goals, we can overcome misunderstandings and move 
forward together.

I don't mind the ad hominem attacks.  I just hope things improve. I do find it 
ironic that I'm addressing the 9front community about collaboration and 
inclusiveness when I recall those as being two reasons for the inception of 
9front.  

Vic


On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 21:18, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
> The collaboration is already here. You try to create tools that already
> exist. I'd like to pinpoint why you have this unbelievable need for
> control and wonder if you're not just working for Microsoft, Google or
> the guy who stole Freenode and just try to disrupt the plan9 community.

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

[vester . thacker]

Why the fear about collaborating?  Wouldn't greater 9legacy and 9front 
collaboration be something good for the Plan 9 community?  

Vic


On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 20:53, hiro wrote:
>> How can we ensure that everyone feels valued and heard?
> 
> easy. stop spamming LLM garbage and start contributing concise code
> and documentation, not this blabber.

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Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front

[vester . thacker]

Dear Members of the 9legacy and 9front Communities,

This message is intended to share thoughts on potential improvements to 
collaborative processes between systems. The aim is to foster an environment 
that encourages ongoing enhancement and mutual support.

Community Efforts
Appreciation is extended to all community members for their dedication in 
updating and maintaining these systems. Their efforts are vital to collective 
progress.

Community Dialogue
An open forum for all members to share insights, discuss challenges, and 
propose solutions related to system updates and integration efforts could prove 
beneficial. Such dialogue can help better understand different perspectives and 
formulate effective strategies collaboratively.

Collaborative Working Group
The creation of a working group to address specific technical challenges, such 
as integrating the dp9ik security protocol, could facilitate smoother and more 
efficient integration. Interested members might consider participating in such 
a group.

Transparency in Decision-Making
Improving the transparency of decision-making processes is a goal. Sharing 
regular informational updates could keep everyone informed about the progress 
and decisions that affect both communities.

Inclusive Decision-Making Processes
Exploring ways to ensure that decision-making processes reflect the community's 
needs and inputs is under consideration. Contributions on how to achieve this 
are highly valued.

Recognition Program
Recognizing the hard work and achievements of community members is important. 
Plans to introduce a recognition program that highlights significant 
contributions and successes are being explored.

Addressing Historical Concerns
Dedicating time to openly discuss historical concerns is crucial for moving 
forward. This could help reconcile and strengthen community ties.

Feedback on these suggestions and potential interest in participating in these 
initiatives is invited. Contributions from community members are invaluable and 
will help shape the direction of collaborative efforts.

Thank you for your engagement and commitment to the community.

Best regards,
Vester


On Thu, May 9, 2024, at 01:29, Jacob Moody wrote:
> On 5/8/24 11:06, Lucio De Re wrote:
>> There is much I would like to explain, but the problem I am attempting to 
>> solve ought to have an obvious answer that I am clearly missing.
>> 
>> I can't seem to get a 9front workstation to mount a networked 9legacy fossil 
>> service. The FS is a fairly pristine 9legacy installation, on a somewhat old 
>> 386 platform. I did need to tweak various parameters on both side, but 
>> eventually I got to the point where both hosts declare that the connection 
>> has been established; now on the 9front workstation I get the message
>>     "srv net!192.96.33.148!9fs: mount failed: fossil authCheck: auth 
>> protocol not finished"
>> I suspect the culprit is the lack of the newer "dp9ik" security on 9legacy, 
>> in which case it would be helpful to know how to work around that.
>
> Probably. Why not just temporarily disable auth checks for the fossil 
> 9legacy machine?
> Or perhaps just take a disk/mkfs backup and tar that. You really have 
> chosen the most painful way of accomplishing this (which you seem to 
> acknowledge).
> Or just exportfs the root? There are so many ways of just getting the 
> files.
>
>> 
>> Why am I mixing my platforms like this? Because the hardware on which I am 
>> attempting to recover a rather large historical file system is split between 
>> IDE and SATA and I have no hardware that can handle both disk modes and I 
>> need to move information between the two media types. I am not describing 
>> all the dead ends I tried, incidentally, that would take too long and really 
>> expose my limited understanding.
>> 
>> It took almost a day to copy the Fossil cache (or lose a lot of the most 
>> recent changes) and now I need (or at least want) to update the default boot 
>> ("arenas") Venti configuration on a SATA drive which I can only access on 
>> hardware I can't install 9legacy on. It's complicated and I'm sure there are 
>> people here who would not find this so daunting, but that's where I am at. 
>> To be precise, I need to change the Fossil default configuration (in the 
>> "fossil" cache) so it points to the correct Venti
>> arenas. I'll deal with the analogous Venti situation when I get past the 
>> total absence of Fossil tools on 9front.
>> 
>> I guess I can port fossil/conf to 9front, but I'm not sure I have the 
>> stomach to try that. Maybe now that I have raised the possibility...
>
> It sound like you're trying to make this someone else's problem.
> Being stuck in a hardware pickle when there are ample existing software 
> solutions is not
> a good reason to ask someone else to go out of their way to write 
> software.
>
> Fossil can be pulled in largely without modifications as I understand it,
> I don't run fossil but some people in the 9front