Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 19:57 Lucio De Re wrote:
> On 12/6/20, cigar562hfsp952f...@icebubble.org
> wrote:
> > Lucio De Re writes:
> >
> >> But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans
> >> mailing list?
> >
> > Good point. [ ... ] Maybe we should keep Plan 9 a secret. ;)
>
> Well, that's one way of spreading it, yes.
> >
> > It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology
> > intended for idiots and technology intended for experts. Imagine if,
> > for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality
> > over 9P. The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and
> > swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds.
> >
> I like that idea. Might not be as far-fetched as it may seem at a
> glance: surely, a human organism could be "generated" from a simpler
> DNA than the present one (merged chromosome-2 in humans suggests I'm
> not wrong, but I rate rank amateur regarding genetics), if one removes
> all the twists and turns of evolution from it. The same may be
> possible with, say, Linux. Much less so with Plan 9, so a deep,
> enlightened comparison should be instructive. Something like Lion's or
> Nemo's Commentaries, maybe as a black room redevelopment as was done
> with the IBM PC BIOS. Or as a brand new mathematical theory of
> Information.
>
> [ ... ]
> > That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies
> > to natural languages) as applied to computer languages.
> >
> Thanks, I need to look that one up. As a very under-educated, remote
> "scholar", such nuggets only reach me by accident. But seSotho is the
> local "vernacular", one of nine "official" African ("tribal" is close
> to the truth) languages in this country. I cannot fathom what kind of
> hoops people taught in these languages need to go through to
> comprehend modern science. I find my native Italian pretty close to
Let's not overemphasize sapir-whorf. Many folks taught primarily in English
find modern science impossible to understand. And SW ends up being a vector
for beguiled racism.
--dho
> stultifying when technology is involved. Poetic, certainly, emotional,
> definitely, good for songs, but below inadequate, as compared to
> English to express scientific and technological concepts, but that
> used to be until quite recently, German's role, too. I guess we have
> to thank the Yanks for shifting that, or the Yanks have to thank the
> colonising Brits for beating the French.
>
> Twists and turns, indeed.
>
> > Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in
> > C.
> >
> Not to me, they don't. They do belong in C, which is a partially
> successful, glorified assembler, not a programming language. Partially
> successful as applied to being an assembler. No one can deny C's
> success in getting computers to do what is demanded of them. But the
> key is that we build computers to do what we want, not what we ask and
> C allows that in spades, by making us think like the machines. Hm,
> more accurately, forcing us to model the target automaton in our head.
> Solving problems, seems to me, ought to ignore the target instruction
> set as long as possible.
>
> It's tempting to think of human relationships, which also pretty much
> rely on assumptions rather than statements - I presume that "proving"
> the validity of code in this sense may mean simply removing all kinds
> of "lies" that lurk in the model it is meant to reproduce
> (simplistically, of course).
>
> Lucio.
>
> PS: Rambling, as usual. It helps me thinking, my hope is that it will
> be confirmed or denied by the "crowd" so I can move on from there.
--
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Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
On 12/6/20, Ethan Gardener wrote: > > I don't know the hypothesis, but very much agree different languages > influence how you think and even feel. > You know, my most memorable and influential mentor was Daniel Friedman. I'm not sure I have the spelling right and he's probably in his seventies, today. His field was anthropology, but he also lectured adults at SUNY, Buffalo (NY) who wanted a formal qualification after having learnt the computer programming ropes on the job. What reminds me of him is that he had written a book on APL programming and I had just started to get comfortable with the language. I can almost feel my own mental transition from "before APL" to "after" all these years ago. Daniel's repertoire of anecdotes was astounding and extremely instructive. His theme was pretty much "team programming" and I have borne that burden with me through decades of operating more or less alone as a programmer, consultant and analyst. But the most significant anecdote of my own regards "team programming". After a fortnight of practically indoctrination from Daniel, the entire final year CS class was sold on working together exclusively. So when some droid came along looking for sharp programmers to develop some financial software in various distant locations (Switzerland was one such - I bet it was a scam, but that was the last I heard of it), we all stood together and refused to accept an offer that would see us working individually. I don't remember anyone breaking rank, but I can't be certain. The prospective employers would have none of it, they felt that teams of people who already knew each other would be a threat to their organisation - and they were probably right. I believe I know what happened in that situation and I seriously believe that with the mindset of the 1970s, today's hardware and a batch of bright developers who are keen and willing to work tightly together, we'd be living in a very different world. But we couldn't have that, could we? Only those who are no threat to the Establishment are allowed to succeed. And the Establishment, specially the financial organisations, is certainly able and willing to identify them and suppress anything that might threaten their domination. A conspiracy theory? More likely simply "social evolution". I'm hoping the next massive asteroid will hit this planet before we have a chance to sterilise it beyond recovery. Lucio. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Mdbea50e3d7f1d82597fefd6d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
On Sat, Dec 5, 2020, at 10:25 PM, cigar562hfsp952f...@icebubble.org wrote: > > It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology > intended for idiots and technology intended for experts. Imagine if, > for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality > over 9P. The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and > swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds. I recently learned most Amiga programs had "Rexx ports". They'd accept commands in the scripting language Rexx (or rather Arexx) from other programs or the user. It's another way of doing the same thing. It also avoids some GUI bloat: if a program wanted to open a file selector, it would call the file manager to do it. > > PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s) > > you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your > > mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language > > That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies > to natural languages) as applied to computer languages. I don't know the hypothesis, but very much agree different languages influence how you think and even feel. > > I had an electrical engineering friend, back at university, who used > > array subscripts in C because he couldn't get his head around > > pointers. Like me, his migration was from Pascal to C. > > Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in > C. To me, C pointers are just another way of indexing the Great Memory Array -- it's a union of arrays of all different types. ;) I am much more comfortable with the syntax of array subscripts, too. I came to C from BASIC and assembly language. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M45f25095dd8e2da7aa645f47 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
On 12/6/20, cigar562hfsp952f...@icebubble.org
wrote:
> Lucio De Re writes:
>
>> But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans
>> mailing list?
>
> Good point. [ ... ] Maybe we should keep Plan 9 a secret. ;)
Well, that's one way of spreading it, yes.
>
> It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology
> intended for idiots and technology intended for experts. Imagine if,
> for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality
> over 9P. The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and
> swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds.
>
I like that idea. Might not be as far-fetched as it may seem at a
glance: surely, a human organism could be "generated" from a simpler
DNA than the present one (merged chromosome-2 in humans suggests I'm
not wrong, but I rate rank amateur regarding genetics), if one removes
all the twists and turns of evolution from it. The same may be
possible with, say, Linux. Much less so with Plan 9, so a deep,
enlightened comparison should be instructive. Something like Lion's or
Nemo's Commentaries, maybe as a black room redevelopment as was done
with the IBM PC BIOS. Or as a brand new mathematical theory of
Information.
[ ... ]
> That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies
> to natural languages) as applied to computer languages.
>
Thanks, I need to look that one up. As a very under-educated, remote
"scholar", such nuggets only reach me by accident. But seSotho is the
local "vernacular", one of nine "official" African ("tribal" is close
to the truth) languages in this country. I cannot fathom what kind of
hoops people taught in these languages need to go through to
comprehend modern science. I find my native Italian pretty close to
stultifying when technology is involved. Poetic, certainly, emotional,
definitely, good for songs, but below inadequate, as compared to
English to express scientific and technological concepts, but that
used to be until quite recently, German's role, too. I guess we have
to thank the Yanks for shifting that, or the Yanks have to thank the
colonising Brits for beating the French.
Twists and turns, indeed.
> Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in
> C.
>
Not to me, they don't. They do belong in C, which is a partially
successful, glorified assembler, not a programming language. Partially
successful as applied to being an assembler. No one can deny C's
success in getting computers to do what is demanded of them. But the
key is that we build computers to do what we want, not what we ask and
C allows that in spades, by making us think like the machines. Hm,
more accurately, forcing us to model the target automaton in our head.
Solving problems, seems to me, ought to ignore the target instruction
set as long as possible.
It's tempting to think of human relationships, which also pretty much
rely on assumptions rather than statements - I presume that "proving"
the validity of code in this sense may mean simply removing all kinds
of "lies" that lurk in the model it is meant to reproduce
(simplistically, of course).
Lucio.
PS: Rambling, as usual. It helps me thinking, my hope is that it will
be confirmed or denied by the "crowd" so I can move on from there.
--
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[9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
Lucio De Re writes: > But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans > mailing list? Good point. Making something popular usually destroys it. E-mail used to be good, prior to The September That Never Ended. Linux used to be good, until about 2005. The World Wide Web used to be good, too... until it became popular. Maybe we should keep Plan 9 a secret. ;) It would be nice if there was some way to translate between technology intended for idiots and technology intended for experts. Imagine if, for example, every Android app automatically exported its functionality over 9P. The cell phone idiots would have all their flashy toasts and swipes, but the apps would still be usable by command line nerds. > PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s) > you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your > mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language That sounds like a variant of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (which applies to natural languages) as applied to computer languages. > I had an electrical engineering friend, back at university, who used > array subscripts in C because he couldn't get his head around > pointers. Like me, his migration was from Pascal to C. Pascal has pointers, too, and they make alot more sense than pointers in C. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Ma094670d72d166f7810b11bb Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
ewd498 - should suffice for a search. cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/index00xx.html seems an interesting place to look. And I may have paraphrased Dijkstra more strongly than he would have intended, but I'm sure he'll forgive me. Lucio. On 12/3/20, Mart Zirnask wrote: >> PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s) >> you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your >> mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language >> for development. All bets are off when Objective C takes over. > > Would you mind posting a link to the manuscript/transcript of the > essay where he discusses this? > > Thanks, > Mart -- Lucio De Re 2 Piet Retief St Kestell (Eastern Free State) 9860 South Africa Ph.: +27 71 471 3694 Cell: +27 83 251 5824 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M8e29de85dc46d335ddf9a6ed Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
> PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s) > you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your > mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language > for development. All bets are off when Objective C takes over. Would you mind posting a link to the manuscript/transcript of the essay where he discusses this? Thanks, Mart -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-Mab3a5fdc03422047494d4075 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
On 12/3/20, cigar562hfsp952f...@icebubble.org wrote: > cigar562hfsp952f...@icebubble.org writes: > > [ ... ] > It would require a little bit of coding, and a LOT of Tweeting, but if > 9fans now have a Twitter account... creating a 9-demic is within the > realm of possibility. > But do we want a flock of 9front-wielding droids flooding the 9fans mailing list? Lucio. PS: I concur with the late Dijkstra that the programming language(s) you learn shape(s) your ability to construct abstractions in your mind. We're kind of safe for as long as C remains the base language for development. All bets are off when Objective C takes over. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M403ae6c9d4b56d90928e95ab Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
cigar562hfsp952f...@icebubble.org writes: > I actually think this is a REALLY good idea. We can use Twitter to > stir-up mass hysteria about zombies from outer space planning to invade ... > Sounds like a great way to promote our favorite operating system. > Wouldn't you agree? OK, so, obviously, I was joking. But the COVID-19 playbook does suggest an interesting way to promote Plan 9. The steps required to do this would be, roughly: (1) Identify a worm that spreads from computer-to-computer and causes ZERO harm, 99.9% of the time, but causes TOTAL DESTRUCTION AND DATA LOSS in 0.1% of the computers it infests. (2) Get video of people in a panic, screaming and wailing about all their data being destroyed, and post it on the Internet. (3) Post lots of tweets about how dangerous the worm is, re-tweet, share, and generally hype-up the videos, along with dire predictions about how the worm will destroy the Internet. (4) Come up with a "test" to "detect" the worm, which has the following three characteristics: (A) Has a positive result whenever the worm is present; (B) Has a positive result whenever the CRC32 of the system's base-level page tables is less than 210210210; and (C) Only runs in Plan 9, installed to a vm image or live CD, so the test can only be run, in person, by a trained Plan 9 technician with physical access to the computer being tested. (5) Release a new version of 9front named after the dreaded worm, and tell people that installing it will make their device immune to the worm. It would require a little bit of coding, and a LOT of Tweeting, but if 9fans now have a Twitter account... creating a 9-demic is within the realm of possibility. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M62191ae5f4fd8b4582fd9b9e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
>> > On Nov 12, 2020, at 8:51 PM, Lucio De Re wrote: >> > >> > On 11/12/20, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle >> >> @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community. Please >> >> consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics, >> >> please try to include this handle in your announcements. >> >> >> > Is that a good idea? I, for one, have no intention of ever sharing a >> > medium with Donald Trump. > On Thu, Nov 12, 2020, at 10:55 PM, Don A. Bailey wrote: >> You know Trump has email, right? ;-) I don't know about that. He's never responded to e-mail from me. :-/ "Calvin Morrison" writes: > It's ok, plan9 will get disputed by twitter fact checkers before a > twitter presence is established. LOL Nothing that good could possible be true, could it? ;) "Pouya Tafti" writes: > Concerning LinkedIn as a platform, IMHO, it may be useful for > recruitment but as a social medium it's a toxic wasteland of > self-promotion and marketing hype ...just like Twitter. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M09b8ee16e5bee88003b2f19d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] Re: Plan 9 announcements on twitter
Skip Tavakkolian writes: > FYI, for those of you who are on twitter, I've set up the twitter handle > @Plan9_OS to push news and announcements to the community. Please > consider following it; and if you tweet about Plan 9 or related topics, > please try to include this handle in your announcements. I actually think this is a REALLY good idea. We can use Twitter to stir-up mass hysteria about zombies from outer space planning to invade Earth by bombarding it with electromagnetic "Tmsgs." As long as these "Tmsgs" are invisible, the people on Twitter will believe it. We can lock-down the entire world, and make people shut off all the computers on Earth! We'll use the Defense Production Act to manufacture millions of tinfoil hats (called "Mount Points") to block all the Tmsgs from Outer Space, and tell people that it's dangerous to come within 6 feet of a smartphone without wearing a Mount Point. Then, exactly one week after Skip Tavakkolian is declared Supreme Commander of the Internet, Bell Labs (which Twitter users will believe still exists) announces its developement of a "9front Space Force Edition" which is 90% effective at generating Rmsgs that neutralize the deadly Tmsgs. Because the ISOs need to be stored in liquid nitrogen, however, we'll have to mobilize the military to blanket the countryside, reaming every HPFS partition it can find. Then, every computer will be running Plan 9! Plan 9 will conquor Georgia, and then conquer the world! Mahaaahaahaaa! Sounds like a great way to promote our favorite operating system. Wouldn't you agree? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3fd028fcf2eeb24c-M95ba1a529acfa945674164ba Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
