Re: Why XML is a bad idea[longish] (was Re: [abcusers] draft for V:)
On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, John Chambers wrote: Richard Robinson [w]rites: | On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Wendy Galovich wrote: | |Really?? What do the Dead Sea Scrolls sound like in abc?? :-) | (Sorry John, I couldn't resist!) | | Quite right too - it's the best bit of bait I've seen in ages :) Have they | really ? All of them ? And are they available to anybody that might want | to transcribe them ? | | I don't want to do that myself, you understand; just curious, because it | was such a very long time that they weren't available. Didn't you hear about it? Well, I suppose to most people (and most news people), it's importance was somewhat less than the latest football scores. But it did get reported here and there, including on NPR here in the States. A few years back, in the early 90's, some people got access to some photos of the Dead Sea Scrolls, made copies, and put them on the Net. The Scrolls' "owners" were duly outraged. They had a nice thing going for 40 years, acting as religious gatekeepers to the Scrolls, able to exclude people who didn't have the Right Attitude, and so on. I remember bumping into one or two of those photos, back in the early days of the web (nostalgia. Trumpet Winsock !), but as you say, they seemed very much an exception. I wondered if the rest of them were now equally available. So many search engines, so little time ... -- Richard Robinson "The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Finding music files
John Chambers wrote: So how does one go about identifying which of the graphics files and/or PDF/PS files contain music? [snip] How did you discover those 7560 images of music? How would one go about sifting through the billions of images on the Net and identifying the ones that are images of music? I was hoping somebody could help me with that some day. For now I do it manually :( Actually it's not that bad. By now I have a pretty good idea of where to look. I think I've indexed between 5 and 10 percents of the tunes out there and the update interval is a couple of months or so, and it's getting better all the time. Coincidentally, that is more or less the same as most general www search engines can claim. Frank NOrdberg To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: Why XML is a bad idea[longish] (was Re: [abcusers] draft for V:)
John Chambers wrote: | | Really?? What do the Dead Sea Scrolls sound like in abc?? :-) | (Sorry John, I couldn't resist!) Hmm ... Maybe we could find the transcriptions on the Web, stick an ABC header on a few passages, and see what they sound like. It makes as much sense as some of the numerology and hidden text things that people dig out of the bible ... Maybe that's the truth about the Scrolls. They weren't religious writings at all, but rather the notebook of some session player way back then... Actaully, I've seen the results of taking English text and treating it as ABC. Actually I think it is a program out there that does that. Frank Nordberg To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] WWW music notation formats (was: Why XML is a bad idea...)
"Frank" == Frank Nordberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think Wil was talking about formats in which music *information* is available, not formats which graphically display information. All the stuff in GIF or PDF on Musica Viva comes from music information which has been entered in some other format, such as ABC or finale. Frank That's true of course, but I hardly think the end user Frank would consider that important. Given you don't give the source except for the ABC, it's not. But if you want to transpose or re-edit the music, it's critically important. And I have a lot of "end users" who want to do that with mine. -- Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ ) (617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139 To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: Why XML is a bad idea[longish] (was Re: [abcusers] draftfor V:)
John Henckel wrote: At 04:39 PM 1/5/2001 +0100, Frank wrote: I've started building a multiformat sheet music search engine, indexing music in GIF, JPEG, PS, PDF and ABC formats (the only truly cross-platform compatible formats for notated music). What?? You forgot the most important one! MIDI files are cross-platform and they are "notated" in the sense that they have "notes" in them. That's right, you could probably add guitar tabs as well. Actually my search engine also includes midi files, but not on their own - only when they are connected to files in some of the other formats. The reason is simple: The Free Sheet Music Search Engine is for standard notation sheet music only, that is either graphical images (GIFs, PDFs...) of notated music or files directly and reliably convertable to standard notation (ABC). Despite what some hotheads might claim, you can't count on being able to convert a midi file to notated music. Sometimes it works, but usually it doesn't. That's not *only* due to the limitation of current translating programs, but also limitations in the midi standard itself and the way it's used. Besides, there are already so many good midi search engines out there, so why bother making another one? Frank Nordberg To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] draft for V:
"James" == James Allwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: James On the topic of voice numbers needing to be contiguous James (Laura's post); this restriction did exist in early James versions of abc2midi, but the current version should allow James non-contiguous voice numbers. No, this doesn't seem to be true. The attached file plays only one voice, with an abcMIDI that I downloaded and compiled this morning. X:1 T:IX. Go crystall teares, C: John Dowland O: From The First Booke of songs or Ayres of foure parts, with Tableture for the Lute L:1/4 M:C %%MIDI nobarlines K:G dorian V:1 name="Cantus" L:1/4 K:G dorian G4 G2 _A2 | G4 z2 G2 | GA B2 c3 d | =B4 w:Go cry- stall tears, like to _ the mor- ning showrs, z2 G2 | c2 c2 |"(1)"_e6 d2 c2 =B2 | c3 c d8 | z B G A B2 c2 | B2 G2 w:And sweet- ly weep in- to thy La- dies breast. And as the dewes re- vive the _A3 A | G4 z2 G2 | G A B c d2 B2 | _e2 c2 c4 z2 z |: _e d B d2 | c2 B2 w:droop- ing flowers, so let your drops of pi- tie be ad- drest, to quick- en up the thoghts G B _A2 | G4 z2 G2 | G3 A =B2 c2 | d2 _e2 d3 d |1 c4 :|2 c4 |] w:of my de- sert, which sleeps too sound, whilst I from her de- part. V:3 name="Tenor" L:1/4 K:G minor treble-8 %%MIDI nob %%MIDI transpose -12 c8 c3 =B/ A/ =B3 A/ B/ c2 B2 _A3 A G4 c4 G2 _A2 _A G w:Go cry- stall _ tears, like _ to the mor- ning showrs, And sweet- ly weep in - G3 C c4 =B A =B4 _B4 z e c d e B2 e c _A2 F B4 c2 B3 A w: to thy La- dies _ breast. And as _ the dewes re- vive the droop- ing flowers, so let your G A B c d d c8 c d e f |: g3 B c d e3 B c _A B G G w: drops of pi- tie be ad- drest, to quick- en _ up the thoghts, the thoghts of my de- sert, which sleeps A =B2c2 G2 _e2 d2 g2 gG2 A |1 _A A G c d e f :|2 =B c2 =B c |] w: too sound, whilst I from her from her, de- part, from her de- part to quick- en. from her de- part. -- Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ ) (617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
Re: Why XML is a bad idea[longish] (was Re: [abcusers] draft for V:)
John Chambers wrote: Still, I'd estimate that there are maybe 20K truly distinct ABC tunes on the web that my search program has found, on about 125 machines. Here are the 123 ABC sites I've listed at The Free Sheet Music Directory. It's probably not absolutely identical to John's list (although we do exchange URLs) In case of e mail accidents: All lines in the list should start with http:// (of course ;) Frank Nordberg http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/abc/ http://www.taberna.com.ar/ http://adactio.com/session/ http://home.t-online.de/home/pheld/noten.htm http://diato.org/tablat.htm http://shiva.di.uminho.pt/~jj/ http://www.celticmusic.com/ http://www.ceolas.org/tunes/ http://www.gre.ac.uk/~c.walshaw/abc/ http://faeryland.tamu-commerce.edu/joyce/ http://famdeboer.www.cistron.nl/bagpipe.html http://Fox.nstn.ca:80/~mgasikn/violin.html http://hjem.get2net.dk/widell/ http://home.clara.net/gmatkin/tunes.htm http://home.primus.com.au/timbarker/ http://home1.swipnet.se/~w-11382/abc.htm http://ifdo.pugmarks.com/~seymour/runabc/top.html http://kazimodal.trad.org/ http://members.aol.com/boynehunt/ceili.html http://members.aol.com/jmarchenry http://members.aol.com/somido/abcsongs.html http://members.teleweb.at/simon.wascher/ http://members.tripod.com/~Rosin_the_bow/tunes.html http://moinejf.free.fr/ http://people.we.mediaone.net/brunodale/dances.html http://perso.club-internet.fr/banwarth/engguitare.htm http://perso.club-internet.fr/ocoronel/ http://perun.hscs.wmin.ac.uk/~jra/ http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/german/homes/agng/ http://pw2.netcom.com/~crfowler/pcorner.htm http://rbu01.ed-rbu.mrc.ac.uk/barflystuff/barflypage.html http://tnt.vianet.on.ca/pages/rickere/index.shtml http://users.erols.com/olsonw/ http://w3.one.net/~rsim/ http://web.syr.edu/~htkeays/morris/hounds/ http://www.8ung.at/diatonica/abc_eng.html http://www.AccordionLinks.com/publisher.cfm http://www.akula.com/~blakeley/music/index.html http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/index.html http://www.bath.ac.uk/~exxhf/music/music.html http://www.blueskiesink.com/bar-b-q/index.htm http://www.blueskiesink.com/Ormston/default.htm http://www.blueskiesink.com/reavy/ http://www.calweb.com/~ndlxs/dulcimer.html http://www.celticmusic.co.nz/greenman/mark/ http://www.celticmusic.com/roger_landes/dragon_reels.shtml http://www.cnnw.net/~oneil/ http://www.continuo.freeserve.co.uk/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/dance/playford.html http://www.cranfordpub.com/ http://www.cranfordpub.com/tunes/abcs http://www.cri.ensmp.fr/~keryell/trad/partitions/partitions.html http://www.dinglehall.freeserve.co.uk/kyoy/ http://www.downie65.freeserve.co.uk/ http://www.execpc.com/~jimvint/abc/milwsun1.abc http://www.execpc.com/~jimvint/index.html http://www.fff.at/fff/dance/ http://www.g8ina.enta.net/index.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6464/hmpg.html http://www.geocities.com/bertvv/en/index.html http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/4766/index.html http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5567/playford.txt http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/7088/ http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9618/ http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9618/winder.html http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6812/ http://www.geocities.com/~cliff_moses/ http://www.hslc.org/~gormley http://www.ihp-ffo.de/~msm/ http://www.ihp-ffo.de/~msm/ http://www.leeds.ac.uk/music/Info/RRTuneBk/tunebook.html http://www.lesession.demon.co.uk http://www.lll.hawaii.edu/esl/bley-vroman/contra/ http://www.manchester-morris.freeserve.co.uk/ http://www.banjolin.supanet.com/ http://www.mandolin.u-net.com/abctunes.htm http://www.mcn.net/~acflynn/music.html http://www.met.rdg.ac.uk/~chapman/ http://www.musicaviva.com http://www.nyckelharpa.org/ http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/jack.html http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~tradsoc/ http://www.salford.ac.uk/media/research/vmpaims.htm http://www.skandia-folkdance.org/spelmanslag/index.html http://www.sofiamusicschool.nl/ethno2.htm http://www.soltec.net/~daglenn/conc_70.html http://www.spirit.net.au/~gramac/ http://www.stanford.edu/~gwaldon/ http://www.tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~lingnau/ http://www.tradfrance.com http://www.trytel.com/~cfalt/Fiddle/ http://www.tullochgorm.com/~tarider/ http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/abcmusic/music.html http://www.ulst.ac.uk/faculty/artdes/Global/Fiddle/Tunes/index.html http://www.8ung.at/tradivarium/ http://www.webcom.com/~liam/gaelsong/song.html http://www.laymusic.org/ http://www.yagelski.com/sbox/index.html http://www1.roke.co.uk/SIB/repertoire.html http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~larryc/ http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a7425519/ http://www.multimania.com/corneymusers/ http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~ibb/scd/Music/ http://abc.sourceforge.net/ http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/ohgaki/sainak/sainak.html http://www.mbay.net/~brendah/articles/PDA.Jul.96/ http://www.uni-jena.de/~osb/tradswed/ http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dexy/celtic.htm http://members.xoom.com/Leffidd/ http://www.formulus.com/hymns/abc2gif.html http://www.flatpicker.com http://eceserv0.ece.wisc.edu/~cobb/
Re: [abcusers] Finding music files
On Sat, 06 Jan 2001, John Chambers wrote: So how does one go about identifying which of the graphics files and/or PDF/PS files contain music? It seems to me that discovering that these contain music is far from trivial. For the gif and png files, it's probably not possible with the current state of AI. I've tried some OMR (optical music recognition) programs, and although their performance is still poor compared to OCR, I've been quite impressed of what they can do. Imagine we have an OMR package. It can recognize without help from the user say 25 % of all musical symbols on an image of a music sheet. On the other hand, given any non-musical image it does not misinterpret more than half of that amount as music. If such programs do exist, I'd say that we have an AI algorithm strong enough for a visual music search engine. We could try and see. There are free versions and trial versions of OMR software available out there. --- Antti Kaihola Sibelius-Academy, Helsinki, Finland [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.siba.fi/~akaihola Päivän palindromi: "Narua, narua Laura nauran." To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Finding music files
Antti Kaihola wrote: On Sat, 06 Jan 2001, John Chambers wrote: So how does one go about identifying which of the graphics files and/or PDF/PS files contain music? It seems to me that discovering that these contain music is far from trivial. For the gif and png files, it's probably not possible with the current state of AI. I've tried some OMR (optical music recognition) programs, and although their performance is still poor compared to OCR, I've been quite impressed of what they can do. Imagine we have an OMR package. It can recognize without help from the user say 25 % of all musical symbols on an image of a music sheet. On the other hand, given any non-musical image it does not misinterpret more than half of that amount as music. If such programs do exist, I'd say that we have an AI algorithm strong enough for a visual music search engine. We could try and see. There are free versions and trial versions of OMR software available out there. For some time I've been idly contemplating writing an OMR program which would produca first draft abc from picture files. The first task such a program would have to perform is to locate the staves. Now a pattern of five equidistant horizontal lines is very distinctive, and it's not hard to devise an algorithm that will detect it, even if the lines are a few degrees off from the horizontal, as is likely to be the case in many scans. If all you want to do is decide whether a picture file contains music you can probably make that decision with a high degree of accuracy based on the presence or absence of staves. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: Why XML is a bad idea[longish] (was Re: [abcusers] draft for V:)
Richard Robinson wrote: On Fri, 5 Jan 2001, Wendy Galovich wrote: At 09:31 PM 1/5/2001 UTC, John Chambers wrote: ... In a couple cases, people have scanned in music so that others can transcribe it to abc. (This isn't unusual; it has been done with a lot of old documents, most notoriously with the Dead Sea Scrolls.) Really?? What do the Dead Sea Scrolls sound like in abc?? :-) (Sorry John, I couldn't resist!) Quite right too - it's the best bit of bait I've seen in ages :) Have they really ? All of them ? And are they available to anybody that might want to transcribe them ? I don't want to do that myself, you understand; just curious, because it was such a very long time that they weren't available. On the other hand, I'm sure the copyright has expired by now - Eric -- ---=---=-=-==-===-=//===//=-===-==-=-=--= - "God is real, unless // Name: // Eric Galluzzo // [EMAIL PROTECTED] declared integer." // WWW: // http://w3.one.net/~eng/ -- Unknown // Work: // Synchrony // Product Engineer ---=-=-==-===-=//===//=-===-==-=-=--= - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: Why XML is a bad idea[longish] (was Re: [abcusers] draft for V:)
John Chambers wrote:
Laura writes:
| I think the problem is that parsing lilypond files is more complicated
| because they potentially have more structure than ABC files, and can
| have includes, etc. I don't know how difficult what you do with the
| ABC would be in practice.
I think you're right. Includes are especially troublesome. The reason
is that the directory structure that a program sees from the web is
not necessarily the same as what a local program sees in the file
system. If the include is of a file in another directory, a web
program can't always correctly calculate what the URL should be.
Probably the only includes you could implement would be for files in
the same directory.
True. For example, most Lilypond files include (e.g.):
\include "paper16.ly"
where paper16.ly is a standard Lilypond include. However, most actual
includes that you'll care about would be local files, I imagine. The
only problem that I'd see there is if the Lilypond file is a symbolic
link to somewhere on the file system that _really_ has the file in it,
in which case the ancillary files might be in that directory.
Of course, if lilypond had an include that used URLs rather than
local file names, this wouldn't be a problem. Such includes are quite
easy to implement.
As far as I know, this isn't allowed with Lilypond.
Another big problem I can see: If my tune index includes, .lp files,
people will be expecting the tune finder to extract single tunes and
return them in PS or GIF or MIDI or whatever formats. The obvious way
to do this is an lp2abc script ...
Ack, no, definitely not. Lilypond (.ly) files are much more complex
than ABC files, and making a translator would be very difficult
(although possible). Lilypond includes a "ly2dvi" program which
translates Lilypond to DVI and (optionally) PostScript and MIDI. Now,
the only tricky part is that within the .ly file itself is where the
\paper {...} and \midi {...} declarations occur, which instruct ly2dvi
to create paper and MIDI. So you'd probably have to search in the .ly
file and add your own \paper {} and \midi {} declarations if they
weren't there (which they almost always are).
- Eric
--
---=---=-=-==-===-=//===//=-===-==-=-=--= -
"God is real, unless // Name: // Eric Galluzzo // [EMAIL PROTECTED]
declared integer." // WWW: // http://w3.one.net/~eng/
-- Unknown // Work: // Synchrony // Product Engineer
---=-=-==-===-=//===//=-===-==-=-=--= -
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Re: Why XML is a bad idea[longish] (was Re: [abcusers] draft for V:)
On Juanury 4th John Henckel suggested to make the abc notation XML
compatible, but then said he had changed his mind since that would have
meant would sacrifying too much of the clarity and
usability of ABC.
Richard Robinsons replyed:
Have you ever looked at raw musixtex, as, eg, hint hint, output from
abc2mtex ? It's *far* nastier than that :)
Well, the first four bars of Jacob (or Enrico - English hornpipe appearing
in the Hardy family manuscript, for those which aren't familiar with it, and
in quite a few abc versions on the web), looks more or less like this:
\pnotes{2.83}\qu{'a}\en%
\xbar
\pnotes{2.83}\ql{'d}\en%
\pnotes{2.00}\ibl1{'f}{-2}\qb1f\tbl1\qb1e\ibl1c0\qb1d\qb1c\qb1d%
\tbl1\qb1b\en%
\xbar
\pnotes{2.00}\ibu1{'a}0\qb1a\qb1b\qb1a\tbu1\qb1{`g}\en%
\pnotes{2.83}\qu f\qu{'a}\en%
\xbar
\pnotes{2.83}\ql{'d}\en%
\pnotes{2.00}\ibl1{'e}2\qb1e\tbl1\qb1f\ibl1g0\qb1g\qb1f\qb1g\tbl1\qb1f%
\en%
\xbar
\pnotes{2.83}\ql{'e}\ql{'a}\ql a\qu{`a}\en%
Yes, those are just four bars of music, stipped of any comment lines, not to
tell of some 25/30 lines of header!
Yet, have a look at this please:
Title: Jacob or Enrico
Composer: traditional
Meter: 4/4
Sharps: 3
Style: SOLO
a4 | d f8 e d c d b | a b a g f4 a | d e8 f g f g f | e4 a a a- |
d f8 e d c d b | a b a g f4 a | d g8 f e d e c | d4 d d :| f8 g |
a4 a8 g f g f e | d e d c b4 b | g8+ a g f e f e d | c d c b a4 a4x3 b c |
d4 d c8 e c a | d4 d c8 e c a | d4 f e8 d e c | d4 d d :|
Now, have a look at its abc counterpart:
X:1
T: Jacob or Enrico
C: traditional
L: 1/8
M:4/4
K:D
A2 | d2fe dcdB | ABAG F2A2 | d2ef gfgf | e2a2 a2A2 |
d2fe dcdB | ABAG F2A2 | B2gf edec | d2d2 d2 :|
fg | a2ag fgfe | dedc B2B2 | gagf efed | cdcB A2(3ABc |
d2d2 cecA | d2d2 cecA | d2f2 edec | d2d2 d2 :|
Do you really think that the abc notation comes out as a clear winner in
terms of human readability? And if I had chosen a complex score (multistave,
multivoice, many lyric lines, guitar chords, marks...)...
Maybe having a look around to see what can be done with other typesetting
packages could be of some help in discussing the V: lines sintax.
Regards
Gianni
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Re: Why XML is a bad idea[longish] (was Re: [abcusers] draft for V:)
Eric writes: | I don't want to do that myself, you understand; just curious, because it | was such a very long time that they weren't available. | | On the other hand, I'm sure the copyright has expired by now Part of the fun of this story was that the original "owners" tried to make a copyright claim. I think the courts just sorta snickered. I suppose the idea isn't totally ludicrous, considering how copyright is being stretched these days. The lawyers probably figured that they could say that they were only claiming copyright on the photos, and photos can be copyrighted, right? Still, I think this was beyond the credulence of the legal system, and the folks who put it online seem to have gotten away with it. The NPR reports that I heard made it pretty obvious that their news folks thought this was a rather outrageous concept of "ownership", and more of a thinly-disguised case of censorship. The original holders of the Scrolls wanted to be the ones to do the interpreting, and didn't at all like the idea of random religious riff-raff getting their hands on the raw text. The idea that the Scrolls might have contained music is enticing and not all that unlikely. Alphabetic musical notation isn't at all new. Chris Walshaw wasn't nearly the first one to come up with the idea. (He was likely the first one to program it, but MusicTeX was already around, so it was just a matter of time.) Vaguely similar text-based musical notation was in use in China and India many centuries ago, and I've seen claims that the ancient Greeks did something similar. Their numbers were, like the Hebrew numbers, based on using letters to represent numbers, with alpha=1, beta=2 and so on. Supposedly some of the old Greek texts had "nonsense words" written below song text, and those letters were really numbers representing notes in a scale. The oriental systems were similar. It's not all that different conceptually from ABC. Consider how the religious folks have tried to interpret the Book of Solomon as deeply religious text rather than the erotic poetry that it really is. It wouldn't be at all far-fetched for such people to interpret an Aramaic version of ABC-like notation as religious text. And one of the properties of Hebrew/Aramaic is that usually only the consonants are written. It turns out that nearly every string of 3 or 4 consonants is a word, so you can "read" most sequences of random letters. Whether this is sensible is another question. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Hotbot can seach for ABC
At 01:26 PM 1/6/2001 +0100, you wrote: Here are the 123 ABC sites I've listed at The Free Sheet Music Directory. Hi Frank, I discovered yesterday that HotBot can search for web pages that contain files with specified extensions. When I told HotBot to search for all ABC files, it found 1100 web sites. Many of the hits are bogus, but maybe you'll find some new ones like http://members.iinet.net.au/~nickl/midi.html The url for HotBoT to search for all ABC files is http://hotbot.lycos.com/text/default.asp?FSU=1FS=abc John Henckel alt. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Zumbro Falls, Minnesota, USA (507) 753-2216 http://geocities.com/jdhenckel/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
