AW: [abcusers] Laurie Griffiths : sad news
Sorry, don't know what to say ... I've no idea what he looked like, even. There's a picture of him here: http://www.musements.co.uk/muse/CV.html Thank you for the picture To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] Stop the list - I want off!
Claire Curtis wrote: I too have tried to unsubscribe, to no avail. I looked at the source of the web page, and may have found the problem. (Those of you who are programmers, please double check). ... I've just tried the html-code (from IE on WNT to Apache on WNT). There's nothing wrong with it (as I expected). So it's certainly as Bert says. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] Four-stringed banjos (was: Music Notation)
Jon wrote: Tenor sets can be very hard to find in the UK too. As I mentioned before, I opt for singles but your type of solution is quite common - I used to do that too. So it's not my invention ;-) If you wanted to try ordering sets from the UK, you could try Redwing Strings from Mally - http://www.mally.com/results.asp?CategoryID=42offset=20 Hobgoblin are another possibility. Thanks, I'll give that a try. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [abcusers] Over the rainbow
Don't you think it's time to change the subject-line of this thread? Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re:[abcusers] suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Starling [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: Toni Schilling [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : Question: applies the n to all notes in the chord as a multiplier or : only to those which have no length modifier? Guh, definitely not a multiplier. Until now I prefered multiplier because I could not see a solution for the chord-melodylength problem. But this seems to be on the way now. n: WithoutAs Multiplier As Default length [A,2C2E2A3e3] [A,CEA3/2e3/2]2[A,CEA3e3]2 Now I would say default length. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] suggestions for [A4A2] notation
My vote is: first=melody shortest=length. Why: 1) gives you two bits of syntx to write two bits of info 2) shortest can't be the melody, because the accompaniment could be shorter 3) shortes is ok to give the length, because you can add a rest after the chord, to delay the following note. ** Having this we don't need the [...]n syntax. ** BTW. I never voted for or against any of the first/highest/shortes rules. I suggested the [...]n if there's no (convenient) way to get melody *and* length from inside the chord. (I think we *need* to specify the melody-note in some way because the w:-lines need it for alignment.) I've not dropped the [..]n idea: Jack Campin wrote: There is a considerable benefit: brevity. If you've written many melodybass pieces, you'll have done a helluva lot of [G,,8B,,8D,8] stuff that would have been more readably written [G,,B,,D,]8 . ... We have had several postings in this list over the years from people who've tried to do that and been surprised to find it didn't work. It's so intuitively sensible that it *ought* to work. I think I tried this also. The way that Jack understood the [..]n was not my original intention. But I agree, it would be a good shortcut. Question: applies the n to all notes in the chord as a multiplier or only to those which have no length modifier? ## Other problem: Using voices (in one staff) you can express almost everything. But for something like accordeon-music it tends to become unreadble and hard to maintain or to modify. Also if you have just some local alternative voices. So I always wished to have a way to *temporary* split a staff or voice into two or more sub voices - without specifying each sub V: in the header, - without using different lines in the ABC-source, - without filling the unused bars of the 2nd voice with rests. I dont't want this: [V:1] ABCD | EFGa | b/a/b/a/ d/c/d/c/ | DCBA | [V:2] z4 | z4 | [A2B2] [C2D2] | z4 | but something like this: ABCD | EFGa | v:1b/a/b/a/ d/c/d/c/ v:2[A2B2][C2D2]v:0 | DCBA | meaning v:1 start local voice one v:2 start or continue local voice two v:0 close all local voices, back to the voice of this staff Any chance to get this on the way? # Other problem: If we've found a way to write complex multi-voice and multi-metric, we should have a way to keep the w:-lines independent of this. It's not very convenient to count underscores each time you modify the notes. Could we embed length indicators in the w:-lines? May be w: blaahh2 bla/4 # After all, I really don't expect that anything of this will be implemented soon. But I think it's worth to discuss things like this to prevent that ABC develops into some dead end or is getting filled up with too tricky constructions. It's no problem if the next main-version of the ABC-standard comes before any software that implements it, if it has a good design. But a collection of experimental features from different programs is not necessaryly a new ABC-standard. Toni ps. nice to see that meanwhile came some conform votings. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Jack Campin wrote: Or did I get the semantics wrong? I'd expect [d6z2]2 to mean the same as [d12z4] (whatever *that* meant) Sorry, you are wrong. If the ]2 is just multiplied to the length of the notes inside the chord, there would be no benefit of the [..]2 notation. You can write better the same way you did: [d12z4] I meant that each note *in* the chord has the length as specified there and the length after the ] doesn't change that. The length after the ] gives the time when the *next* note after the chord starts. So with M:4/4 and L:1/4 [A4C4E4]2 a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4 means play the AMinor for 4 beats but on the 3rd beat start a tremolo on the note a until the end of the bar. You can not write this with any of the discussed chord-length-rules because each note in the chord has length 4. Of course you can whrite the same as [z2A4C4E4] a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4a/4 suppossed the the chord-length is taken from the 1st note and rests in chords are allowed. Which one is more readable or easier to maintain is a matter of taste. But just now came in my mind: what if you could write this [A4E4C2]0 ab[C,2]0c'd' Supposed the length zero is allowed, this whould mean start A4 E4 C2 on beat one change the C to a C, one beat three. And on top play a melody abc'd' for the whole bar. Ok, take this as a joke. But why not allow the syntax. It's consistent whith the single note length modifier so it seems to me its easy to understand. There are no ambiguities in what it means so any software can easy figure out what to print or to play. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] Re : suggestions for [A4A2] notation
Bryan Creer wrote: However, I am a bit confused by - So if you need the A4 as first listed note in the chord for some other reason (e.g. to indicate the melody), you can give the chord an other length whith ]2 I had assumed the number after the chord was intended to represent its length within the melody so I am not sure what this means. John answered for me ... John Chambers wrote: Well, I can think of a simple example of how one might use this: [A4G2E2]2[F2D2] This would have a 4-count melody note above the [G2E2][F2D2] chord change. With L:1/8, the first chord could be drawn on a single stem, with an open oval for the A4 note and filled ovals for the G2 and E2 notes. This sort of notation isn't at all unusual in keyboard music. The abc seems quite readable to me. That's exactly what I meant. Starling wrote: It could be too flexible though. How is [A4G2E2]3[F2D2] supposed to be interpreted? :-) play A4,G2 and E2 on beat one hold it for 4,2 and 2 beats. than start playing F2 and D2 on the 4rd beat (after a z3) and hold it for two beats. An accordion surly can do that, but if you should write it down this way ? Of course this syntax gives much freedom to write nonsens. But this is not the point. The syntax should provide a way to write something meaningful in a readable form. It is for the software to find out the meaning or to complain if it doesn't understand. But I don't think that you can define a syntax that prevents you from writing nonsens. Bryan Creer wrote: I'm afraid I got rather lost by your named nesting idea as well. John Chambers wrote: Me too. Hmmm... see you in an other thread. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] Modes without the maths
Laurie wrote: ... To summarise it so you can see it at a glance, here it is as a table. The final sequence is the first two chords in reverse order e.g. G7=C. K:Cmaj CG7 F K:Ddor Dm E (G, Bm) K:Ephr EFmaj7 G7 Am K:Gmix GF (C) K:Aaeo Am C (F G) K:Am Am E7(G C F) Many Thanks. This is what I was looking for. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Unsubscribing from ABC
Sorry, for posting again on this subject. From time to time there were people who could not unsubscribe from the list. The answer was in most cases to search for the correct subscribed address in the email-header and then unsubscribe with this address. Today I found that the header from abcusers contains my address but the header from abcusers-digest does not. There were only infos about our servers. Ok, the address must have been there - the email has reached me. But I couldn't figure out where it was cut off and (until now) I couldn't get my Admin to search for this. Any ideas? Could someone send me an abcusers-digest header how it is supposed to reach the receiver? Thank you Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] resons for using abc
Atte Andre Jensen wrote *formatting is seperated from the music itself *anything else* is separated from the music information itself. I would say, this is the most important thing. All other resons are based on this one in some way. The information is now a kind of stream-format which opens any way to do tricky things. A few months back somebody says he uses ABC to teach his canary to whistle a tune.. I wonder what other curious things people are doing already with abc? I wonder what comes next? An operating system with melody-icons (very useful for blind people). Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] resons for using abc
Laura Conrad wrote Atte Or better (IMHO): an interface that works the way lily Atte works. That is the note is asumed to be the closed to the Atte previous one. I disagree -- that makes the notes too context dependant, so you can't just cut and paste a snippet into an email. (and it's harder to parse ABC) I think he ment the key strokes not the ASCII that comes out. But if it's for fast typing only, what do you think about a key mapping like this: the keybord (e.g. german) Q--W--E--R--T--Z--U--I--O--P --A--S--D--F--G--H--J--K--L- Y--X--C--V--B--N--M--;-- means: B#-C#-D#-E#-F#-G#-A#-B#-c#-d# --C--D--E--F--G--A--B--c--d-- Db-Eb-Fb-Gb-Ab-Bb-cb-db-- and produces in ABC: ^B ^C ... ^d C D ... d _D _E ... _d You could use shift- or hold-shift to switch to an other octave. Then the tool should choose upcase and lowcase and add the ' or , automatically. Or you could define to start with an other note. A shortcut would be good to switch into this mode and back. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] re : re: what does that means ?? slurs and ties
Jeff Bigler wrote: ... I totally agree with all. And if we handle it like this the only problem is to find out if the _writer_ knows what ties and slurs are. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] Percussion notation...
Hmmm ... Y'know; that might not be too difficult. For the x note heads, it would have been nice if 'x' hadn't been already taken up as an invisible rest; it would have made an intuitively-correct modifier for this purpose. Maybe we could use '*' for this purpose, so the *e Why not use the different octaves and the flat and sharp notation. This gives as many different percussion instruments as you need. The abc2something can translate it to what ever you need (requires that the voice is declared as percussion) different note heads, one- ore five-line-notation,... It will look strange in abc but it should not be too hard to implement. And as I see the drum notation uses only notes between the lines not on the lines. So we have at least 5 symbols more. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] Re: Have I been unsubscribed from abcusers?
Could be that you are subscribed, or posting using an alias. Since I turned on the option that allows only list members to post, some people who have aliases have been having problems posting. Can you hear me on ABC? (Sorry, it seems it's getting quiet on ABC. Or am I boring you so much that nobody wants to tell me even that? ) Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: AW: [abcusers] Percussion notation...
When practicing I always have the problem to remember or to write down (hopefully) nice ideas. And two days later I start again from scratch, trying different sticks/fingers, patterns, rolls, colors of sound (sorry, is this english?), playing short or long sounding, ... I can note some important rhythmic points. That can be done pretty compact. But remarks about all the other things tend to become novels. So I just have to learn the bdr-accompaniment for each single piece and I play it from memory. Hints on this whould be wellcome. === Sorry I can't help with notating bodhran parts. I have been playing for almost 2 years now, and played in a band for most of that time. I usually end up playing a tune over and over and settling on a part to play that seems to gel over time (in rehearsal). After a while, I remember the important parts to play, the rhythmic and tonal variations for the tune, but I likely never play it exactly the same way any two times, but seeing it's folk music, I don't worry about it much. Ok, that's the way I do it now and all the other B'players I've asked do so. No problem. But if you think of e.g. an instrumental break when performing a song it's much better to have a plan (in your mind or on the paper). And when you are working out an arrangement for a concert or a recording the percussion should be part of it. I need the notation for this test-phase. Seems it would be a difficult thing to notate a bodhran part, especially seeing you are talking JJK style playing with all the different tones, and a continuous scale of tones, at that (like those darned fretless instruments ;-) ). BTW the much bigger problem is to reproduce what you did before. Without this we need no notation. One suggestion would be to assign the tones, in general to the staff, high is high, low is low, but not necessarily certain pitches, and maybe use chord symbols to notate either open or closed sounds. You could even use slurs to indicate sliding from one tone to another, and, of course, the standard accents to indicate accents. That would give you enough information to jog your memory about the part. This was my first approach. It looks a bit overloaded but it's ok. May be I should talk to some drummers and learn a little. My real problem is I just can't stop me from playing with different symbols and changing my own syntax again and again. So there's no progress at the end. ;-) I hoped to find someone with the same problem to find a 'common base' of rules and symbols. Usually, if you have to talk to other people, it turns out very fast what's basic, useful, useless, ... So, if there's somebody who tryed or wants to try a bodhran notation, we should exchange (off list?) what we have. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: AW: [abcusers] Junk mail
On Fri, 17 May 2002, Toni Schilling wrote: I think that anyone who writes to list should be intrested in getting response. So it's no problem, if only subscribers can post to the list Is that a yes-vote? -- oh sorry! of course it is a yes. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] Percussion notation...
Hi. A little bit of this thread .. Are there any Bodhran-players out there? And do you have any suggestions to notate *nice* bodhran-playing? If you do not only play (in a simple way) to reels,jigs,.. but also to any folk,jazz,swing and what ever you want or if you think of people like J.J.Kelly you know what I mean. When practicing I always have the problem to remember or to write down (hopefully) nice ideas. And two days later I start again from scratch, trying different sticks/fingers, patterns, rolls, colors of sound (sorry, is this english?), playing short or long sounding, ... I can note some important rhythmic points. That can be done pretty compact. But remarks about all the other things tend to become novels. So I just have to learn the bdr-accompaniment for each single piece and I play it from memory. Hints on this whould be wellcome. Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
AW: [abcusers] Junk mail
Bryan wrote: This morning I had one junk email from the abcusers list and seven talking about it (here's another). Just delete junk and forget it. You whouldn't have get those seven emails and this one without the junk mail. I think that anyone who writes to list should be intrested in getting response. So it's no problem, if only subscribers can post to the list Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [abcusers] Complex Chords in ABC
From: Laurie (ukonline) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] ... My own guess is that D/A means any combination of the notes D F# and A in any octaves, so long as it contains at least one of each note and the lowest note of all of them is an A in some octave. Nice. This should be enough for a standard. I think, if anybody needs to be more exact than this, it's easier to use the [AD^Fad] -syntax together with naming the instrument and it's tuning and what ever you need to describe the sound you're going to produce. A more interesting guitar example is E7/E which could be any of (frets again) at least 0 2 0 1 0 0 (easy but boring) 0 2 2 1 3 0 (better) 0 7 6 7 0 0 (nice!) 0 7 6 7 0 7 (ah, yes!!) 0 7 9 7 9 7 (not really worth the effort) 0 7 9 9 9 10 0 7 0 9 0 0 x x 2 1 3 0 x 7 6 7 0 0 0 7 6 4 3 0 (let's see you play that in a hurry) 0 11 12 9 0 0 0 11 0 9 0 0 (and there are many more). At this point I have a question beside of this thread: As an easy/short notation of which $m7 -chord do I mean I use (e.g. for guitar standard tuning) 0E ( 0 2 2 1 0 0)E-Major 1E ( 1 3 3 2 1 1) F-Major 3E ( 3 5 5 4 3 3) G-Major 0G ( 3 2 0 0 0 3) G-Major 0C (3|0 3 2 0 1 0) C-Major 7C ( 7 10 9 7 8 7) G-Major So I have a set of thread 0-based chords (in my mind). And to say which transposed chord I want to play, I write G(3E) which means (to me) play a G-Major as if you whould shift the thread-0-based E-Major chord (0E) 3 threads up. This works pretty good also for other instruments. I don't expect, that this goes into ABC. But does anybody have a better trick to notate this ? Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [abcusers] ties and accidentals
Thank you! -Original Message- From: John Walsh [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 22:15 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [abcusers] ties and accidentals This thread keeps going on, but I have the feeling that there has been agreement for some time, and we've just forgotten it. But I've often been wrong on that score before... Here's what I think has been said: ties and slurs can't always be distinguished in printed staff notation. The usual convention is that if there is an ambiguity between tie and slur, one always assumes it's a tie; in other words, in questions of tie/slur, the default is a tie. There is no ambiguity in abc---the example ^f- | f has a tie, not a slur---so that the second f has to be an f sharp. Which means that playback and midi programs should play ^f, but printing programs don't print the accidental (because they don't need to--the convention takes care of it.) It would seem to follow---but I don't remember if there was agreement here---that if one wrote ^f- | ^f that the accidental on the second f is there for emphasis, and a printing program should print it; but it should be equivalent to ^f- | f for any midi or playback program, or for that matter, to a musician reading the tune. Another question was lightly touched on, but not resolved: if we add another f to the examples: ^f-| f f and ^f- | ^f f ...what should be done with the third f? I would think that in the first example, it's an f natural, in the second, it's an f sharp (since the printing program will have explicitly sharped the first f in the measure, so by extension, all later f's will be sharped.) But I'm guessing---we should just follow whatever the actual convention is in printed music for this. John Chambers brought up the question of having software accept abc's tie notation for a slur. It seems relatively harmless to me, as long as it doesn't prevent people from using the tie/slur distinction the way it's meant to be, but it points out the need for clear documentation--it's easy to imagine someone using a tie for a slur and then having no clue as to why some strange accidentals showed up later on in the measure. Cheers, John Walsh To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [abcusers] New mailserver
Hi, I had the same problem last year. I could not unsubscribe. For a couple of weeks I just ignored the list than it became interresting for me again. So I did not try to unsubscribe anymore. Don't know if it works now. Toni -Original Message- From: Cynthia [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 19:06 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: cynth Subject: RE: [abcusers] New mailserver Not sure if this has anything to do with the new server, but I have unsubscribed twice in the last month but nevertheless continue to receive messages. I received a confirmation the first time I unsubscribed, but not even that for the most recent attempt. Can anyone help? I have enjoyed the list - but am needing to thin out the inbox and I'm only just barely a user, nevermind a programmer with abc! Best to all, -cynthia To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [abcusers] Initial repeats
-Original Message- From: Laurie Griffiths [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 1:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: [abcusers] Initial repeats I think it's a bit late for that. May be that's true, but ... Although there are some problems they are not so frequent in practice and there is enough stuff out there that we wouldn't want to re-edit and can't wish it away. ...there's nothing to re-edit because older stuff just doesn't use it. And when some older software complains about new things the people will look for an upgrade. I think we should just live with it. ;-) when will we start with the next major version of ABC-standard? Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [abcusers] Initial repeats
Why not use |: and :| for onbar-repeats and /: and :/ for inbar-repeats. Surrounded with whitespace a parser could handle this as separate tokens and it will not conflict with the A/2 syntax. Also you can be explicith now if needed: | /: abc abc | abc abc :/ | abc /: abc | abc :/ abc | Toni To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
