Re: [abcusers] Chord length
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:22:43 UTC, John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
[snip]
| {[DGB][EAc]}(3:2:4[EGB]2[DFA]/{[EGB]}[EGc]/
|
| for example.
Good example. I wish that chords as grace notes generally worked. No
reason they shouldn't, of course, but how many programs actually
implement them?
[snip]
abcm2ps :)
--
Ken ar c'hentañ | ** Breizh ha Linux atav! **
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Re: [abcusers] Chord length
We've had the suggestion a few times in the past that there
be a way to give a length for bracketed chords, instead of
repeating the length for each note. Thus [Ace]4 could be
used for [A4c4e4]. In one discussion, we even had the
suggestion of multiplying lengths if they are present in
both places, so [A4ce]2 would be [A8c2e2].
I think it got lost within the discussion about having notes of
differing lengths within chords. [Ace]4 doesn't have anything
like the same semantical problems as [A4ce] so it might be
better to discuss it separately.
There shouldn't be any problem with any durational modifier being
applied to a chord made up of same-length notes, should there?
{[DGB][EAc]}(3:2:4[EGB]2[DFA]/{[EGB]}[EGc]/
for example.
-
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro.
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Re: [abcusers] Chord length
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Jack Campin wrote: I think it got lost within the discussion about having notes of differing lengths within chords. I think that problem is now solved with the introduction of -style voice overlay. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
Jack Campin writes:
| We've had the suggestion a few times in the past that there
| be a way to give a length for bracketed chords, instead of
| repeating the length for each note. Thus [Ace]4 could be
| used for [A4c4e4]. In one discussion, we even had the
| suggestion of multiplying lengths if they are present in
| both places, so [A4ce]2 would be [A8c2e2].
|
| I think it got lost within the discussion about having notes of
| differing lengths within chords. [Ace]4 doesn't have anything
| like the same semantical problems as [A4ce] so it might be
| better to discuss it separately.
You're probably right. Different note lengths like this don't work
too well in staff notation, of course. I'd bet that most users
wouldn't ever combine lengths this way. But I gave one example of a
sort that you would see occasionally, with a held drone note that
would translate into a white note head.
| There shouldn't be any problem with any durational modifier being
| applied to a chord made up of same-length notes, should there?
|
| {[DGB][EAc]}(3:2:4[EGB]2[DFA]/{[EGB]}[EGc]/
|
| for example.
Good example. I wish that chords as grace notes generally worked. No
reason they shouldn't, of course, but how many programs actually
implement them?
Back to the topic at hand. That [EGB]2 in the middle shouldn't cause
any parsing problems, for the same reason that just E2 shouldn't. A
group of notes on one stem (also known as a chord ;-) should be
syntactically very much like a single note. The general syntax of abc
puts the length after a note, and applying this to a group of notes
really shouldn't be a stretch. It would probably require a bit more
code in a parser, but it would be a nice feature for people typing or
reading abc.
Some programs already half-implement this, because [AF][BG] works in
at least some programs. It's curious that this would work, while the
simpler [AF]3[BG] doesn't. I know this is true of abc2ps, because I
use the former a lot, and I was a bit surprised when I discovered
that the latter is an error.
Maybe we should fire up another thread about the meaning of a chord
with different-length notes. It would be handy if there were a
standard way of deciding on the length of such a chord, in the sense
of when the next note/chord starts. But that really should be a new
topic, so as not to derail this one.
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Re: [abcusers] Chord length
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 01:53:00AM +, John Chambers wrote: We've had the suggestion a few times in the past that there be a way to give a length for bracketed chords, instead of repeating the length for each note. Thus [Ace]4 could be used for [A4c4e4]. In one discussion, we even had the suggestion of multiplying lengths if they are present in both places, so [A4ce]2 would be [A8c2e2]. This is something that's obviously not logically necessary. But it makes sense, fits in with the overall abc syntax, and would simplify typing for a lot of people. I don't have a strong opinion on this one, though I'd certainly use it if it were available. But I've had a few messages recently asking what ever became of the idea. Like you, I don't have very strong opinions here, it's not a thing I've found a huge need for. But uses like [A4ce]2 would seem to be fairly clear to understand, convenient to type, and consistent with the rest of the language; it's a thing I'd try if I needed to express such a thing. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length - waaaah!
In a message dated 7/24/03 094307, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thus [Ace]4 could be used for [A4c4e4]. Heavy ABC User* cries plaintively: Could we at least get this one in and worry about the chords containing different note lengths (can't recall when I've run across this) at some other time? * Parse this as [Heavy ABC] [User], not [Heavy][ABC User] - I've been Atkinsing for past month. BB To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 01:53:00AM +, John Chambers wrote: We've had the suggestion a few times in the past that there be a way to give a length for bracketed chords, instead of repeating the length for each note. Thus [Ace]4 could be used for [A4c4e4]. In one discussion, we even had the suggestion of multiplying lengths if they are present in both places, so [A4ce]2 would be [A8c2e2]. This is something that's obviously not logically necessary. But it makes sense, fits in with the overall abc syntax, and would simplify typing for a lot of people. I don't have a strong opinion on this one, though I'd certainly use it if it were available. But I've had a few messages recently asking what ever became of the idea. Like you, I don't have very strong opinions here, it's not a thing I've found a huge need for. But uses like [A4ce]2 would seem to be fairly clear to understand, convenient to type, and consistent with the rest of the language; it's a thing I'd try if I needed to express such a thing. But what does it MEAN in notation terms? You are not allowed to have different length notes on the same stem in standard notation, so the [A4bc] would itself have to mean A4 at stem down and [bc] at stems up. Is this what's intended? You only have stems up and down if you have 2 parts on the 1 stave, and this does not fit in with abc anyway in terms of [] notation. Unless I'm not versatile enough, it seems to me that a passage such as Dotted Half A Quarter A --- stems up Half F Half F--- stems down cannot be notated in abc as [] notation. Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length - waaaah!
On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thus [Ace]4 could be used for [A4c4e4]. Heavy ABC User* cries plaintively: Could we at least get this one in and worry about the chords containing different note lengths (can't recall when I've run across this) at some other time? I've added the following to the upcomming revision of the draft standard. Please let me know if it is acceptable. All the notes within a chord should have the same length. More complicated chords can be transcribed with the operator, see section Voice overlay. The chord forms a syntactic grouping, to which the same prefixes and postfixes can be attached as to an ordinary note, except for accidentals. In particular, the following notation is legal: ( ^I.[CEG]- [CEG] ^IV [F=AC]3/2^V[GBD]/ H[CEG]2 ) When both inside and outside the chord length modifiers are used, they should be multiplied. I.e. [C2E2G2]3 has the same meaning as [CEG]6. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length - waaaah!
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 06:48:53PM +0200, I. Oppenheim wrote: The chord forms a syntactic grouping, to which the same prefixes and postfixes can be attached as to an ordinary note, except for accidentals. In particular, the following notation is legal: ( ^I.[CEG]- [CEG] ^IV [F=AC]3/2^V[GBD]/ H[CEG]2 ) I particularly like the way this clarifies the relationship between the chord and all the other markings that can accumulate around it. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length - waaaah!
I. Oppenheim writes: | On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Thus [Ace]4 could be | used for [A4c4e4]. | | Heavy ABC User* cries plaintively: | Could we at least get this one in and worry about the chords containing | different note lengths (can't recall when I've run across this) at some | other time? | | I've added the following to the upcomming revision of | the draft standard. Please let me know if it is | acceptable. | | | All the notes within a chord should have the same | length. More complicated chords can be transcribed with | the operator, see section Voice overlay. | | The chord forms a syntactic grouping, to which the same | prefixes and postfixes can be attached as to an | ordinary note, except for accidentals. In particular, | the following notation is legal: | | ( ^I.[CEG]- [CEG] ^IV [F=AC]3/2^V[GBD]/ H[CEG]2 ) | | When both inside and outside the chord length modifiers | are used, they should be multiplied. I.e. [C2E2G2]3 has | the same meaning as [CEG]6. | Very good. It might be better to not totally outlaw notes of different lengths, but rather to say that it isn't a good idea because most cases can't be represented in standard staff notation. There are a few valid uses for such things. Something you see in a lot of guitar music is a chord with one or two white note heads, very often with a dangling tie that leads to no matching note. This has a well-defined meaning to a guitar player. I wonder if there's a way to get this let it ring notation in abc? When I first learned abc, there weren't many examples of the [...] chord notation, and the docs were sketchy. I determined by experimenting that abc2ps only used the length of the first note, so I figured that was how abc did it, and I wrote all such chords with just the first length, as in [G2B][A2c] [B3d][Ac]. Then, some time later, I ran across the comment that different-length notes were in fact meaningful, and you really should put a length on every note. So I started doing that, although it didn't make any difference in the output that I saw. I've since gone back a fixed some of my older tunes that use chords, but I can guarantee that I haven't found them all. And I've noticed abc from other people that does the same thing. So we do have at least a small amount of abc around that does things this way. Maybe I'll try to find the rest and fix them, too. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Chambers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Bernard Hill writes: | In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Robinson | Like you, I don't have very strong opinions here, it's not a thing | I've found a huge need for. But uses like [A4ce]2 would seem to be | fairly clear to understand, convenient to type, and consistent | with the rest of the language; it's a thing I'd try if I needed to | express such a thing. | | But what does it MEAN in notation terms? You are not allowed to have | different length notes on the same stem in standard notation, so the | [A4bc] would itself have to mean A4 at stem down and [bc] at stems up. | Is this what's intended? | | You only have stems up and down if you have 2 parts on the 1 stave, and | this does not fit in with abc anyway in terms of [] notation. You obviously haven't seen enough music notation. ;-) It's not at all unusual in some sorts of music to have both a solid and an open note head on the same stem. Standard staff notation is obviously very limited in what can be done with this, but combining a quarter and a half note on a single stem is easy, and isn't at all unusual. Yes it is. I've only ever seen it on string parts, eg beginning of final movement of Beethoven 5th. My reference books are quite explicit: two notes of different lengths cannot share a stem. If you must have them sounding at the same time then one has stem up, one down. With L:1/8, the notation [A4ce]2 is a case that works. The resulting A8 is a whole note, so it doesn't have a stem. So the [c2e2] would be two quarter notes on the same stem, and the A8 would be a stemless whole note drawn directly below them. The simpler [A2c]2 would be a half-note A and a quarter-note c on a single stem. These aren't at all odd or unusual notation. Of course, it's very easy to come up with examples in abc that have no representation in staff notation. You can't mix quarter and eighth notes on the same stem. But in any case, this is a secondary issue. The simple case of [Ace]3 is easy, and some people would like it to work. I would agree with that. But I would also expect abc to make [A3ce] into the same thing, ie only need the length on the first note of the chord for the reason I gave above. Similarly, the [ce][Bd] case is very useful, and already works with some abc software. In fact, are there abc programs that reject [ce][Bd] now? Possibly. I don't :-) Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
Bernard Hill wrote: But what does it MEAN in notation terms? You are not allowed to have different length notes on the same stem in standard notation, ... Well, allowed may not be the right word here. The question is if it's possible in standard notation. You do occasionally see dotted and non-dotted notes on the same stem, and a qarter note and a half note head together as well. Actually, it's easier to implement in standard notation than in abc since the rules are much more relaxed. But I agree with Zouki: Just let that question lie for now. Seems it only derails the discussion. --- Is there any problems with notation like [BAD]4 ? If not, I think it should be included in abc 2.0. It's much easier for a human both to read and write than [B4A4D4] - which should be kept just for the sake of backwards compatibility. Frank Nordberg http://www.musicaviva.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Chord length
But uses like [A4ce]2 would seem to be fairly clear to understand, convenient to type, and consistent with the rest of the language; it's a thing I'd try if I needed to express such a thing. Mixed lengths in the same chord are *not* clear to understand if you are trying to implement a player or barlength checker, or even a staff notation generator where absolute duration influences horizontal space allocation. Some other time, PLEASE. - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
