Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 09:49:22PM -0400, Eric Galluzzo wrote: On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 09:11, Bernard Hill wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Where does this bang thing come from? ! was always called shriek when I were a lad. Yes, it's a new one to me too. I always knew it as thwack-tung although I've come across shriek before. How funny! I've never heard either of those before, but I have heard it pronounced bang here in the U.S. When I was at university in Britain it was called pling. But I think this latter was in the context of the pi calculus and therefore might not have been a general-purpose pronunciation. I've heard pling used, but it's not usual (I know nothing about the pi calculus, btw. Maybe this is relevant). Most commonly in the UK, I think we'd call it an exclamation mark. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
Richard Robinson wrote: On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 09:49:22PM -0400, Eric Galluzzo wrote: On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 09:11, Bernard Hill wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Where does this bang thing come from? ! was always called shriek when I were a lad. Yes, it's a new one to me too. I always knew it as thwack-tung although I've come across shriek before. How funny! I've never heard either of those before, but I have heard it pronounced bang here in the U.S. When I was at university in Britain it was called pling. But I think this latter was in the context of the pi calculus and therefore might not have been a general-purpose pronunciation. I've heard pling used, but it's not usual (I know nothing about the pi calculus, btw. Maybe this is relevant). Most commonly in the UK, I think we'd call it an exclamation mark. Here's another one: in the INTERCAL programming language, ! is called 'wow'. From the INTERCAL reference manual http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/intercal-man/home.html: The INTERCAL programming language was designed the morning of May 26, 1972 by Donald R. Woods and James M. Lyon, at Princeton University. Exactly when in the morning will become apparent in the course of this manual. [...] INTERCAL was inspired by one ambition: to have a compiler language which has nothing at all in common with any other major language. For more funny character names, see Tonsil [sic] A: The INTERCAL Character Set of the manual. -- Bert Van Vreckem http://flanders.blackmill.net/ Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer. -- Dave Barry To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 09:49:22PM -0400, Eric Galluzzo wrote: On Tue, 2003-07-08 at 09:11, Bernard Hill wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Where does this bang thing come from? ! was always called shriek when I were a lad. Yes, it's a new one to me too. I always knew it as thwack-tung although I've come across shriek before. How funny! I've never heard either of those before, but I have heard it pronounced bang here in the U.S. When I was at university in Britain it was called pling. But I think this latter was in the context of the pi calculus and therefore might not have been a general-purpose pronunciation. I've heard pling used, but it's not usual (I know nothing about the pi calculus, btw. Maybe this is relevant). Most commonly in the UK, I think we'd call it an exclamation mark. Ah, I remember pling! On my University maths course in the 1960s. Along with carrot as in A-carrot: upside down circumflex over an A. But I also remember shriek which we used for factorials. Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
From: Bernard Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ah, I remember pling! On my University maths course in the 1960s. Along with carrot as in A-carrot: upside down circumflex over an A. Caret (pronounced the French way rather than like a root vegetable) is the ^ symbol. It comes from printing where it is used to denote an insertion or omission. (L. carere=to be in need of). Dave David Webber Author of MOZART the music processor for Windows - http://www.mozart.co.uk Member of the North Cheshire Concert Band http://www.northcheshire.org.uk To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Webber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes From: Bernard Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ah, I remember pling! On my University maths course in the 1960s. Along with carrot as in A-carrot: upside down circumflex over an A. Caret (pronounced the French way rather than like a root vegetable) is the ^ symbol. It comes from printing where it is used to denote an insertion or omission. (L. carere=to be in need of). No, this was carrot, the English way. Note I said the caret ^ was inverted. So it looks like a carrot sprouting out of a letter - hence pronouced A-carrot. Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
On Tue, 8 Jul 2003, Phil Taylor wrote: I'm told that recent versions of abcm2ps use the operator to set the time point back to the beginning of a bar so that an additional layer of notes can be added. This sounds like a good idea, but I haven't seen any detailed description of how it works. On http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/abc/split.html I have given an example of how the operator works, including PNG output. Can it be used anywhere, or only when the first layer is complete (i.e. go back exactly one bar's length)? It goes back to the beginning of the current measure. Can you use it more than once to add several layers to the same bar? You can add several voices. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
Phil Taylor wrote - I'm told that recent versions of abcm2ps use the operator to set the time point back to the beginning of a bar so that an additional layer of notes can be added. This sounds like a good idea, but I haven't seen any detailed description of how it works. (and Irwin gave him the details.) This sounds like a really neat idea but isn't it the sort of thing that leads to the ! and !! debacle. Did anyone outside the abcm2ps community know about this until now. If another developer had started using for their pet idea we'd have the same sort of conflict. Can developers please let the rest of the world know what they are planning? Bryan Creer P.S. Where does this bang thing come from? ! was always called shriek when I were a lad. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
Bryan Creer wrote about the symbol: Did anyone outside the abcm2ps community know about this until now. If another developer had started using for their pet idea we'd have the same sort of conflict. It was discussed on this list before it was implemented in abcm2ps. I remember well having read about it a couple of months ago. /Henrik To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did anyone outside the abcm2ps community know about this until now. If another developer had started using for their pet idea we'd have the same sort of conflict. This idea was proposed by Taral on this list on Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:43:51 -0700. It was found to be a good idea, and has been adopted by abcm2ps and maybe some other programs as well. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does every new developer have to trawl through the entire abcusers' archive and the documentation of all 83 programmes mentioned on Frank Nordberg's list to find out if a symbol has been used? That's why Guido is now writing an uptodate standard. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Where does this bang thing come from? ! was always called shriek when I were a lad. Yes, it's a new one to me too. I always knew it as thwack-tung although I've come across shriek before. But ! is even easier to write than 'bang'... Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
Bryan Creer wrote: Does every new developer have to trawl through the entire abcusers' archive and the documentation of all 83 programmes mentioned on Frank Nordberg's list to find out if a symbol has been used? You've got a good point there, Bryan. I too had forgotten about the until I re-read the abcm2ps doc last week. I think we should have some sort of place where we gather information about extensions before they are implemented and people start using them. Of course you can't stop anybody from writing whatever they want in an abc file, so you'll just have to ignore anything you don't understand and give a nice warning message about it. T:Tune ;-) K:G I think M:34? I never understood why people use 6/8, cause its same as 3/4 ABc def| g5|...etc|!*# - I think that's how it starts! (AcB dfe g) - or maybe like that? % the is what you get on a Swedish keyboard if you miss the AltGr key % while trying to get a | To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
Bryan Creer wrote: | Phil Taylor wrote - | (and Irwin gave him the details.) | | This sounds like a really neat idea but isn't it the sort of thing that leads | to the ! and !! debacle. Did anyone outside the abcm2ps community know | about this until now. If another developer had started using for their pet | idea we'd have the same sort of conflict. | | Can developers please let the rest of the world know what they are planning? I think this is why the old abc developers' list and the standards committee died. Most abc developers seem to prefer to discuss things on abcusers, so they can get feedback from users who aren't programmers. I commented on the same thing a few days ago, in the discussion of trying to merge my jcabc2ps with jef's abcm2ps. I got a number of messages from people requesting that we use the list to exchange messages, to keep others apprised of what's happening. I've long considered this a Good Sign and much of the explanation for why we've had so few real conflicts between abc extensions. We beat an idea to death here first. Of course, sometimes this takes years, until someone decides they really need something and just do it. I suspect this is why Jean-Francois started working on abcm2ps. I know it's why I started on my own abc2ps clone. | P.S. Where does this bang thing come from? ! was always called shriek | when I were a lad. It's old typographers' slang. Common speech often develops slang terms that differ from the jargon of specialists; this is just one more example. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
It seems that over the years a lot of ideas have been informally discussed on the list, with the usual amount of agreement and disagreement, and then the energy of the discussion dies out and there's no assertive decision one way or the other. Perhaps with the new leadership we need a semi-formal process and tracking approach so that proposals get a tracking number or something and the standard committee must respond to each one after an appropriate amount of time and discussion has elapsed. The risk of not doing this is that if proposers don't feel that they've been taken seriously they might go off and develop the feature themselves and introduce another barely known and possibly incompatible feature. -John - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:08 AM Subject: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths Irwin Oppenheim wrote - This idea was proposed by Taral on this list on Mon, 22 Oct 2001 08:43:51 -0700. It was found to be a good idea, and has been adopted by abcm2ps and maybe some other programs as well. A lot of ideas are proposed on this list and discussed at great length. It is often hard to tell whether they have been taken up or not. That's why Guido is now writing an uptodate standard. Let us hope he has more success than others have had over the last few years. Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Donald White wrote: One solution might be to allow the definition of additional voices on the fly - or within a block of music. That way, when you only have a small portion of a piece that requires independent voices on one staff you don't have to pad the entire piece with invisible rests. That is currently supported by the newest Abcm2ps versions, with the voice splitting symbol. See features.txt Irwin To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
Donald White wrote: One solution might be to allow the definition of additional voices on the fly - or within a block of music. That way, when you only have a small portion of a piece that requires independent voices on one staff you don't have to pad the entire piece with invisible rests. I'm told that recent versions of abcm2ps use the operator to set the time point back to the beginning of a bar so that an additional layer of notes can be added. This sounds like a good idea, but I haven't seen any detailed description of how it works. Can it be used anywhere, or only when the first layer is complete (i.e. go back exactly one bar's length)? Can you use it more than once to add several layers to the same bar? There is an analagous construction in MusicXML. The backup tag takes a numerical parameter which determines how far the time point is backed up, and there is a matching forward tag which acts essentially as an invisible rest. Here, however, you can do all sorts of complicated things with the added layers, including switching the layer to a different staff, and this leads to transcriptions of piano music in two staffs as a single voice, with each bar containing multiple backups to represent the multiple voices. It's a nightmare to parse. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
Donald White writes: | I keep flipping back and forth between which is easier - using | different note lengths within a chord, or multiple voices. Where | multiple voices on a single staff move in parallel, it is easiest | to use chords and then just deal with independent movement of | voices where needed - but currently this is not supported (to my | knowledge) with any consistency in any abc package. The latest | version of abcm2ps seems to support this, but use of it on a | multistaff piece seems to really screw things up. Obviously, where | there is considerable independent movement or voices on one staff, | using multiple voices makes the most sense. This is the fundamental problem that makes keyboard music the worst case for just about all music software. A basic capability of any keyboard instrument (and the lute/guitar family) is that a voice may appear as a transient part of the music, and then disappear. This is difficult for abc, because it is basically a linear, single-voice notation. Multiple voices are handled by literally writing them out as separate musical lines. This works fine for an orchestra of single-voice instruments. It also works fine for keyboard works like a Baroque fugue, which really are N independent voices. It doesn't work nearly as well when a voice pops up, sings a few notes, and then goes away. | One solution might be to allow the definition of additional voices | on the fly - or within a block of music. That way, when you only | have a small portion of a piece that requires independent voices on | one staff you don't have to pad the entire piece with invisible | rests. Possibly. I wonder if there's a reasonably simple way to notate this within the abc world view? The % notation for doing multiple voices within a measure is an idea, but is fairly clumsy and not very readable. Introducing a whole new V: voice for a handful of notes in the middle of a staff is somewhat clumsy, too. I've seen abc keyboard music written with two merged treble voices and two merged bass voices. I wonder what fraction of keyboard music can be handled effectively this way. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: chord lengths
Phil Taylor writes: | John Chambers wrote: |[GBd]3 means [G3B3d3] |[GB][Ac] means [G3/2B3/2][A/2c/2] |[B-G2]3Bcd means [B3-G6]Bcd | and so on. | | I wonder if anyone has implemented it already. | | I would have thought that most programs would handle [GB][Ac]. | BarFly does. And abc2ps does, too. But it doesn't handle the others. This is actually sorta curious, because of course and are really just note-length symbols, like 2 or 3/2. They are sorta funny in that they effect the length of two adjacent notes, rather than just one. But aside from that, BA looks a lot like B2A. In particular, handling [GB][Ac] requires diving into the data for two chords and multiplying all the note lengths by something. The code to handle [GB]2[Ac] should be very similar, except that you only have to modify the lengths in one chord. Maybe I'll try programming it, in my copious spare time ... To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
