Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
On 13/10/23 03:27, Michael Weghorn wrote: On 2023-10-12 20:27, Jason White wrote: On an unrelated issue, the accessibility of comments in LibreOffice Writer was recently raised on the Orca mailing list. Change tracking (reporting of insertions and deletions) is an associated feature that has not, to my knowledge, been made accessible to screen reader users in LibreOffice. Anyone needing to make effective use of comments and change tracking using a screen reader would likely need to turn to a proprietary office application instead, for which the necessary API support has been in place for some time. Thanks for mentioning that. Thanks for the explanation of the API status of these features (not quoted here for brevity), and for taking up the problem. I've needed to use comments and change tracking in word processor files in the past; it's likely that I will need them again in the future, and the only solution is currently to use a proprietary word processor. As I generally write in a markup language such as LaTeX or Markdown, my interactions with word processor files usually involve reading, editing or reviewing other peoples' documents. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
On 2023-10-24 19:36, Dave Grossoehme wrote: How does the spell checker work with Narrator? In a quick test of mine, Narrator did not announce anything in LibreOffice, except for the title of windows. I don't know much about Narrator, but it might be that it only supports UIA (User Interface Automation) and not IAccessible2, the Windows accessibility API that LibreOffice implements. Regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
How does the spell checker work with Narrator? Dave On 10/23/2023 2:51 AM, Michael Weghorn wrote: Hi, On 2023-10-12 14:02, Michael Weghorn wrote: I think the best way forward is to switch to adhere to the IAccessible2 specification and report the "invalid:spelling" attribute for spelling errors. That also needs a modification in NVDA to longer expect the custom attributes. Once that's implemented, we'll see whether that already makes the announcement of misspelled words work as expected or more is needed. I'm currently working on that, see the following bug report I created for more details: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157696 That's done now and announcement of spelling errors when NVDA announces a line in Writer works with the LibreOffice changes from the above-mentioned Bugzilla ticket and the corresponding NVDA change ( https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/15649 ) in place, i.e. it will work with the upcoming versions LibreOffice 24.2 and NVDA 2024.1. The fact that LibreOffice was switched from custom attributes to attributes according to the IAccessible2 specification also implies that assistive technology that was previously only supporting the custom attributes has to be adapted to accept the IAccessible2 text attributes now. For NVDA, this has been implemented in the pull request mentioned above. If you rely on the feature of announcing formatting information, I'd recommend to update NDVA to 2024.1 next year before updating to LibreOffice 2024.2. (Announcement for text formatting will not work with NVDA 2023.x and LibreOffice 2024.2 and above). In a quick test with JAWS, it didn't announce any text attributes when pressing Keypad_Insert+F, neither with nor without the recent LibreOffice changes in place, so it seems like that's not implemented there at all. (I can't take any closer look because that's a closed source product.) If anybody wants to test the current development versions, I'm happy about feedback. If anybody is aware of other assistive technology that should be taken into account, I'm thankful if you either notify the developers yourself or let me know so I can take care of this. Regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
On 2023-10-23 08:51, Michael Weghorn wrote: If you rely on the feature of announcing formatting information, I'd recommend to update NDVA to 2024.1 next year before updating to LibreOffice 2024.2. (Announcement for text formatting will not work with NVDA 2023.x and LibreOffice 2024.2 and above). For clarification: NVDA 2024.1 still supports the legacy custom attributes reported by LibreOffice versions 7.6 and below as well. Therefore, the announcement of text formatting also works when using NVDA 2024.1 and above with LibreOffice versions 7.6 and older to the extent that it does with NVDA 2023.2. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi, On 2023-10-12 14:02, Michael Weghorn wrote: I think the best way forward is to switch to adhere to the IAccessible2 specification and report the "invalid:spelling" attribute for spelling errors. That also needs a modification in NVDA to longer expect the custom attributes. Once that's implemented, we'll see whether that already makes the announcement of misspelled words work as expected or more is needed. I'm currently working on that, see the following bug report I created for more details: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157696 That's done now and announcement of spelling errors when NVDA announces a line in Writer works with the LibreOffice changes from the above-mentioned Bugzilla ticket and the corresponding NVDA change ( https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/15649 ) in place, i.e. it will work with the upcoming versions LibreOffice 24.2 and NVDA 2024.1. The fact that LibreOffice was switched from custom attributes to attributes according to the IAccessible2 specification also implies that assistive technology that was previously only supporting the custom attributes has to be adapted to accept the IAccessible2 text attributes now. For NVDA, this has been implemented in the pull request mentioned above. If you rely on the feature of announcing formatting information, I'd recommend to update NDVA to 2024.1 next year before updating to LibreOffice 2024.2. (Announcement for text formatting will not work with NVDA 2023.x and LibreOffice 2024.2 and above). In a quick test with JAWS, it didn't announce any text attributes when pressing Keypad_Insert+F, neither with nor without the recent LibreOffice changes in place, so it seems like that's not implemented there at all. (I can't take any closer look because that's a closed source product.) If anybody wants to test the current development versions, I'm happy about feedback. If anybody is aware of other assistive technology that should be taken into account, I'm thankful if you either notify the developers yourself or let me know so I can take care of this. Regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
On 2023-10-12 20:27, Jason White wrote: I just confirmed that spelling errors are being reported by Orca under Linux as expected. Thanks! That matches what I see with Orca and the gtk3 VCL plugin (interface variant) on Linux. (The Qt-based VCL plugins don't expose that information yet. I might look into that while working on the Windows implementation, since they'll be using the same IAccessible2 text attribute implementation in LibreOffice then.) On an unrelated issue, the accessibility of comments in LibreOffice Writer was recently raised on the Orca mailing list. Change tracking (reporting of insertions and deletions) is an associated feature that has not, to my knowledge, been made accessible to screen reader users in LibreOffice. Anyone needing to make effective use of comments and change tracking using a screen reader would likely need to turn to a proprietary office application instead, for which the necessary API support has been in place for some time. Thanks for mentioning that. In a quick test with Writer and Accerciser to inspect the accessibility tree, I see "text-tracked-change:deletion"/"text-tracked-change:insertion" text attributes being reported for the portions of text that have been removed/added. For comments, there's a comment object as a child of the paragraph object and that exposes the text of the comment. But it's likely that more is missing to properly expose that on the LibreOffice side and/or process that information on Orca side. (And at a quick glance, I don't see any corresponding text attributes in the IAccessible2 spec that could be used on Windows.) Without an existing specification on how these should be exposed, this will likely need some thorough considerations (and discussion with everyone involved) on what's the best approach for this. There are already some existing bug reports related to change tracking and comments (also about lack of being able to interact with them using the keyboard): https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96487 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92389 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90725 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107637 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101002 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99261 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102054 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
I just confirmed that spelling errors are being reported by Orca under Linux as expected. On an unrelated issue, the accessibility of comments in LibreOffice Writer was recently raised on the Orca mailing list. Change tracking (reporting of insertions and deletions) is an associated feature that has not, to my knowledge, been made accessible to screen reader users in LibreOffice. Anyone needing to make effective use of comments and change tracking using a screen reader would likely need to turn to a proprietary office application instead, for which the necessary API support has been in place for some time. On 12/10/23 08:02, Michael Weghorn wrote: Hi, On 2023-10-07 23:25, Michael Weghorn wrote: That sounds plausible. As mentioned in my previous email, I'm planning to take a closer look at this. Since it works with other applications (like Word or Thunderbird) and NVDA is free and open source, too, I'm optimistic that it'll be possible to identify what's missing on either LibreOffice or NVDA side. (According to Jason, this already works as expected with Orca on Linux.) Update on the non-announcement of spelling errors with NVDA: LibreOffice on Windows currently does not expose spelling errors via text attributes, but NVDA uses the red underline for misspelled words to detect misspelled words. LO also doesn't specify the character attributes it currently reports according to the IAccessible2 text attribute specification [1], but uses its own attribute names and values, which NVDA evaluates in its LibreOffice-specific app module [2]. I think the best way forward is to switch to adhere to the IAccessible2 specification and report the "invalid:spelling" attribute for spelling errors. That also needs a modification in NVDA to longer expect the custom attributes. Once that's implemented, we'll see whether that already makes the announcement of misspelled words work as expected or more is needed. I'm currently working on that, see the following bug report I created for more details: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157696 Regards, Michael [1] https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/accessibility/iaccessible2/textattributes [2] https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/f1c73d1d25e08c53664eb299fadc81db22c61b13/source/appModules/soffice.py#L35 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi, On 2023-10-07 23:25, Michael Weghorn wrote: That sounds plausible. As mentioned in my previous email, I'm planning to take a closer look at this. Since it works with other applications (like Word or Thunderbird) and NVDA is free and open source, too, I'm optimistic that it'll be possible to identify what's missing on either LibreOffice or NVDA side. (According to Jason, this already works as expected with Orca on Linux.) Update on the non-announcement of spelling errors with NVDA: LibreOffice on Windows currently does not expose spelling errors via text attributes, but NVDA uses the red underline for misspelled words to detect misspelled words. LO also doesn't specify the character attributes it currently reports according to the IAccessible2 text attribute specification [1], but uses its own attribute names and values, which NVDA evaluates in its LibreOffice-specific app module [2]. I think the best way forward is to switch to adhere to the IAccessible2 specification and report the "invalid:spelling" attribute for spelling errors. That also needs a modification in NVDA to longer expect the custom attributes. Once that's implemented, we'll see whether that already makes the announcement of misspelled words work as expected or more is needed. I'm currently working on that, see the following bug report I created for more details: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157696 Regards, Michael [1] https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/accessibility/iaccessible2/textattributes [2] https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/f1c73d1d25e08c53664eb299fadc81db22c61b13/source/appModules/soffice.py#L35 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi Jean-Phillipe and Joanmarie, On 2023-10-08 00:07, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: Yes, COlomban is working for this. I gave him my nputs, he now tries to give a better technical base and reproduction scenarios. (...) Great, knowing the exact steps to reproduce will be very helpful. Or would the expectation rather be that the dialog content is announced by the screen reader automatically when the dialog gets shown? I think such behavior would be acceptable, but when the user needs to repeat the info, it is always more simple if he can see it via tab or keys I think. Screen readers dont't have always a feature to repeat the last message and the last message may be interrupted by another (a notification, a movement on the keyboard without consequence, etc) So far, I was thinking more about the latter. This would also match the current behavior of other info/warning dialogs, like the one that gets shown when closing the document with unsaved changes. Right, same problem, in particular, for example, when the filename is not friendly for a speech synth, requiring repeating. Thanks for the explanation. I can see how Thunderbird does it. Since you say announcing the content by default when it gets shown is acceptable, I tend to prioritize my efforts on that for now. The changes to make that work for NVDA mentioned in my previous email are merged now and will be included in LibreOffice 24.2: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157633 Orca currently announces only a few of the labels in the dialog, the actually relevant information isn't announced because Orca restricts what it announces. I've submitted a merge request to Orca with a potential approach that make that scenario work: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/merge_requests/174 @Joanmarie: If you could take a look at that at some point and provide feedback on whether that looks like a workable approach or there's a better solution, that would be much appreciated. Best regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi,
Le 07/10/2023 à 23:25, Michael Weghorn a écrit :
Hi Jean-Philippe,
On 2023-10-07 06:19, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
Nice to start chatting with you, I heard of you at Libocon via
COlomban you met there and worling with my organization. I am glad if
I can help you working on LO accessibility given the high needed job.
For your info, as a "power user"/tester, I mainly use Linux and I use
Libreoffice latest stable (in Sid on Debian). Hypa uses an older one
due to bugs that COlomban will show you, but the bug tracker mentions
most of them, reported by me and my former colleague.
great to hear from you and thanks a lot for the work so far, your input
and offer to help further. I'm looking forward to continue working
together!
I'd definitely be interested in hearing what regressions are currently
preventing Hypra from updating to a current LibreOffice version.
(There are currently more than 200 accessibility-related tickets in
Bugzilla; knowing which are the ones that Hypra considers blockers would
be helpful.)
Yes, COlomban is working for this. I gave him my nputs, he now tries to
give a better technical base and reproduction scenarios. To sum up my
current feeling, the main problems is the style dialog, where browsing
with the caret is very difficult to edit and tweak styles, the browser
(f5) whose behaviour is not stable, and some dialogs where browing is
very hard (eg. this to number chapters, in Tools menu). The style dialog
being the most problematic as what is sent to the accessibility infra is
really difficult to use for a screen reader, I tried to run an automated
test suite producing code to reproduce scenarios from the at-spi events
and this dialog sent really not relevant info.
Actually I think something needs to be explained: using screen readers
like Orca or NVDA, we consider as accessible information what may be
reached via the caret, ie. what you can move with tab key or the arrow
keys. Using advanced features to access to the information, eg. object
navigation or flat review, is not optimal. It might work, but not
everybody know it and is it considered as a kind of hack to workaround
accessibility limitations.
For dialogs that present information without allowing to change
anything, like the case of the word count dialog ("Tools" -> "Word
Count") discussed here:
Would you still expect to be able to navigate within the dialog text
using tab or arrow keys?
Yes. In comparison, in Thunderbird, when having a dialog (a question for
instance), the caret can switch to OK, Cancel, and the message box,
enabling to say it. Of course in such case not other ineraction is
possible, but the movement is and makes it accessible.
Or would the expectation rather be that the dialog content is announced
by the screen reader automatically when the dialog gets shown?
I think such behavior would be acceptable, but when the user needs to
repeat the info, it is always more simple if he can see it via tab or
keys I think. Screen readers dont't have always a feature to repeat the
last message and the last message may be interrupted by another (a
notification, a movement on the keyboard without consequence, etc)
So far, I was thinking more about the latter. This would also match the
current behavior of other info/warning dialogs, like the one that gets
shown when closing the document with unsaved changes.
Right, same problem, in particular, for example, when the filename is
not friendly for a speech synth, requiring repeating.
I think that's a screen reader issue. You should probably report it
to NVDA.
Unfortunately I am not sure. I Cc Joanmarie Diggs, main Orca
developer, who can confirm or give you technical explanations. DOnt
hesitate to subscribe to the orca mailing list where all the community
activity takes place:
https://www.freelists.org/list/orca
I think if the screen reader is unable to announce a mismelled word
while speaking the current line or saying all the document, it is
because it does not get the info from the accessibilit tree.
That sounds plausible. As mentioned in my previous email, I'm planning
to take a closer look at this. Since it works with other applications
(like Word or Thunderbird) and NVDA is free and open source, too, I'm
optimistic that it'll be possible to identify what's missing on either
LibreOffice or NVDA side.
Great, many thanks
Best regards
(According to Jason, this already works as expected with Orca on Linux.)
Best regards,
Michael
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi Jean-Philippe,
On 2023-10-07 06:19, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
Nice to start chatting with you, I heard of you at Libocon via COlomban
you met there and worling with my organization. I am glad if I can help
you working on LO accessibility given the high needed job. For your
info, as a "power user"/tester, I mainly use Linux and I use Libreoffice
latest stable (in Sid on Debian). Hypa uses an older one due to bugs
that COlomban will show you, but the bug tracker mentions most of them,
reported by me and my former colleague.
great to hear from you and thanks a lot for the work so far, your input
and offer to help further. I'm looking forward to continue working together!
I'd definitely be interested in hearing what regressions are currently
preventing Hypra from updating to a current LibreOffice version.
(There are currently more than 200 accessibility-related tickets in
Bugzilla; knowing which are the ones that Hypra considers blockers would
be helpful.)
Actually I think something needs to be explained: using screen readers
like Orca or NVDA, we consider as accessible information what may be
reached via the caret, ie. what you can move with tab key or the arrow
keys. Using advanced features to access to the information, eg. object
navigation or flat review, is not optimal. It might work, but not
everybody know it and is it considered as a kind of hack to workaround
accessibility limitations.
For dialogs that present information without allowing to change
anything, like the case of the word count dialog ("Tools" -> "Word
Count") discussed here:
Would you still expect to be able to navigate within the dialog text
using tab or arrow keys?
Or would the expectation rather be that the dialog content is announced
by the screen reader automatically when the dialog gets shown?
So far, I was thinking more about the latter. This would also match the
current behavior of other info/warning dialogs, like the one that gets
shown when closing the document with unsaved changes.
I think that's a screen reader issue. You should probably report it
to NVDA.
Unfortunately I am not sure. I Cc Joanmarie Diggs, main Orca developer,
who can confirm or give you technical explanations. DOnt hesitate to
subscribe to the orca mailing list where all the community activity
takes place:
https://www.freelists.org/list/orca
I think if the screen reader is unable to announce a mismelled word
while speaking the current line or saying all the document, it is
because it does not get the info from the accessibilit tree.
That sounds plausible. As mentioned in my previous email, I'm planning
to take a closer look at this. Since it works with other applications
(like Word or Thunderbird) and NVDA is free and open source, too, I'm
optimistic that it'll be possible to identify what's missing on either
LibreOffice or NVDA side.
(According to Jason, this already works as expected with Orca on Linux.)
Best regards,
Michael
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
> > > Update both libre office and nvda. Nowadays, nvda announces the number of > word after pressing nvda key + eng. You no longer need to read the whole > document to know the number of word. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi Michael, Nice to start chatting with you, I heard of you at Libocon via COlomban you met there and worling with my organization. I am glad if I can help you working on LO accessibility given the high needed job. For your info, as a "power user"/tester, I mainly use Linux and I use Libreoffice latest stable (in Sid on Debian). Hypa uses an older one due to bugs that COlomban will show you, but the bug tracker mentions most of them, reported by me and my former colleague. Le 06/10/2023 à 20:32, Michael Weghorn a écrit : Hi Daniel and Jason, thanks a lot for your email mentioning these points and the further input! Some notes/questions on the individual points follow below. On 2023-10-05 00:01, Jason White wrote: On 4/10/23 17:22, Daniel McGrath wrote: Firstly, when bringing up a word count, it's very difficult to see... for the screen reader to read the word count. Most of the window seems taken up with a needlessly (to me) long explanation of what word count does. The only way I've found of hearing the actual word count is to use insert+b to get NVDA to read the whole dialog box, and the word count comes right at the end. Little thing I know, but rather irritating if one is trying to keep tabs on the number of words, and having to read every time that this shows the word count of the current selection and the whole document, and that this is automatically updated as you type. Useful to know once of course, but annoying to have to hear every single time. I've just tested this under Linux with Orca, and I can use the screen reader's review commands to read the dialogue. Starting from the bottom gives me the character counts (with and without spaces), and the word count. Actually I think something needs to be explained: using screen readers like Orca or NVDA, we consider as accessible information what may be reached via the caret, ie. what you can move with tab key or the arrow keys. Using advanced features to access to the information, eg. object navigation or flat review, is not optimal. It might work, but not everybody know it and is it considered as a kind of hack to workaround accessibility limitations. The explanation of what word count does is not shown in the dialog, but set as the accessible description of the dialog. And when an accessible description is set for a dialog, NVDA announces that description instead of the dialog content. NVDA source code for this: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/a380b6a76a0a29df32e57c1bd974b11a895ac0c8/source/NVDAObjects/behaviors.py#L151-L156 On top of that, the same text was set for both of the buttons, so when pressing NVDA+B, the text would get announced three times: once as the accessible description of the dialog at the very beginning, and then once when each of the buttons is announced. At least the latter seems wrong, so I've submitted a change to drop that: https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/157637 One approach to avoid announcing the explanation each time and announcing the content instead would be dropping the accessible description for the dialog, since it's still easily possible to get that info by pressing the "Help" button in the dialog. I've submitted a change to do that, but am currently waiting for feedback from the documentation/help team on whether that's OK, since that would also mean that the text is no longer shown as a tooltip when extended tips are enabled in the LibreOffice options. As a potential alternative, if you're primarily interested in the document word count, that info is more quickly available in the status bar. NVDA+End will announce it from NVDA 2023.2 on. (This was implemented in NVDA for LibreOffice in https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/14933 .) As a side note, when I tested that just now, I noticed that this needs another update to work with the current development version of LibreOffice and to make the functionality work with status bars in dialogs as well. Pending/Suggested changes: https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/157658 https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/157659 https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/15592 But as far as I can tell, if you're using NVDA 2023.2 and LibreOffice 7.5 or 7.6, this should work fine. My second point is about automatic spell checking. I find that my screen reader will only inform me of a spelling error if the cursor happens to land on the word. I don't know if I can make it any clearer, but for instance if reading a line back in this email, NVDA will announce "spelling error" each time it encounters a mis-spelled word. In LO writer, I will only be told each mis-spelled word when the cursor is on it. Pretty little thing this, but it would be nice if it could be corrected. I think that's a screen reader issue. You should probably report it to NVDA. Unfortunately I am not sure. I Cc Joanmarie Diggs, main Orca developer, who can confirm or give you technical explanations. DOnt hesitate to subscribe to the
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi Daniel and Jason,
thanks a lot for your email mentioning these points and the further input!
Some notes/questions on the individual points follow below.
On 2023-10-05 00:01, Jason White wrote:
On 4/10/23 17:22, Daniel McGrath wrote:
Firstly, when bringing up a word count, it's very difficult to see...
for the screen reader to read the word count. Most of the window seems
taken up with a needlessly (to me) long explanation of what word count
does. The only way I've found of hearing the actual word count is to
use insert+b to get NVDA to read the whole dialog box, and the word
count comes right at the end. Little thing I know, but rather
irritating if one is trying to keep tabs on the number of words, and
having to read every time that this shows the word count of the
current selection and the whole document, and that this is
automatically updated as you type. Useful to know once of course, but
annoying to have to hear every single time.
I've just tested this under Linux with Orca, and I can use the screen
reader's review commands to read the dialogue. Starting from the bottom
gives me the character counts (with and without spaces), and the word
count.
The explanation of what word count does is not shown in the dialog, but
set as the accessible description of the dialog.
And when an accessible description is set for a dialog, NVDA announces
that description instead of the dialog content.
NVDA source code for this:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/a380b6a76a0a29df32e57c1bd974b11a895ac0c8/source/NVDAObjects/behaviors.py#L151-L156
On top of that, the same text was set for both of the buttons, so when
pressing NVDA+B, the text would get announced three times: once as the
accessible description of the dialog at the very beginning, and then
once when each of the buttons is announced.
At least the latter seems wrong, so I've submitted a change to drop that:
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/157637
One approach to avoid announcing the explanation each time and
announcing the content instead would be dropping the accessible
description for the dialog, since it's still easily possible to get that
info by pressing the "Help" button in the dialog.
I've submitted a change to do that, but am currently waiting for
feedback from the documentation/help team on whether that's OK, since
that would also mean that the text is no longer shown as a tooltip when
extended tips are enabled in the LibreOffice options.
As a potential alternative, if you're primarily interested in the
document word count, that info is more quickly available in the status bar.
NVDA+End will announce it from NVDA 2023.2 on.
(This was implemented in NVDA for LibreOffice in
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/14933 .)
As a side note, when I tested that just now, I noticed that this needs
another update to work with the current development version of
LibreOffice and to make the functionality work with status bars in
dialogs as well. Pending/Suggested changes:
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/157658
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/157659
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/15592
But as far as I can tell, if you're using NVDA 2023.2 and LibreOffice
7.5 or 7.6, this should work fine.
My second point is about automatic spell checking. I find that my
screen reader will only inform me of a spelling error if the cursor
happens to land on the word. I don't know if I can make it any
clearer, but for instance if reading a line back in this email, NVDA
will announce "spelling error" each time it encounters a mis-spelled
word. In LO writer, I will only be told each mis-spelled word when the
cursor is on it. Pretty little thing this, but it would be nice if it
could be corrected.
I think that's a screen reader issue. You should probably report it to
NVDA.
I can reproduce this, e.g. with a paragraph containing this text:
"Hello world, wrrong spelling."
Moving to that paragraph using the cursor up/down key, NVDA announces
"spelling error" when using Word right away, but not for Writer.
I plan to take a look into that, but cannot say yet when I'll get to it.
My third problem is potentially quite important, because if you're
using a braille display, if you prefer to work without speech, which I
often do, it can make editing and proofing quite challenging. Along
the top of a braille display is a row of buttons called 'router keys'.
When pressed, the cursor is moved to that place in the document.
Cursor routing keys worked for me under Linux with a braille display and
the Orca screen reader when I last used them. It might be a Windows or
NVDA-specific issue.
Can you please provide a detailed description of how to reproduce this
issue? (What are the exact steps you're taking? What is the actual
outcome? What is the expected outcome?)
I noticed that NVDA has a braille viewer ("Tools" -> "Braille Viewer")
so tried to reproduce with that, since I don't have any actual hardware.
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
On 4/10/23 17:22, Daniel McGrath wrote: Firstly, when bringing up a word count, it's very difficult to see... for the screen reader to read the word count. Most of the window seems taken up with a needlessly (to me) long explanation of what word count does. The only way I've found of hearing the actual word count is to use insert+b to get NVDA to read the whole dialog box, and the word count comes right at the end. Little thing I know, but rather irritating if one is trying to keep tabs on the number of words, and having to read every time that this shows the word count of the current selection and the whole document, and that this is automatically updated as you type. Useful to know once of course, but annoying to have to hear every single time. I've just tested this under Linux with Orca, and I can use the screen reader's review commands to read the dialogue. Starting from the bottom gives me the character counts (with and without spaces), and the word count. My second point is about automatic spell checking. I find that my screen reader will only inform me of a spelling error if the cursor happens to land on the word. I don't know if I can make it any clearer, but for instance if reading a line back in this email, NVDA will announce "spelling error" each time it encounters a mis-spelled word. In LO writer, I will only be told each mis-spelled word when the cursor is on it. Pretty little thing this, but it would be nice if it could be corrected. I think that's a screen reader issue. You should probably report it to NVDA. My third problem is potentially quite important, because if you're using a braille display, if you prefer to work without speech, which I often do, it can make editing and proofing quite challenging. Along the top of a braille display is a row of buttons called 'router keys'. When pressed, the cursor is moved to that place in the document. Cursor routing keys worked for me under Linux with a braille display and the Orca screen reader when I last used them. It might be a Windows or NVDA-specific issue. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
