Re: [agi] Project proposal: MindPixel 2
Judging from your posts, you have solved the AI problem in 2007, 2006, 2005, On 1/15/07, A. T. Murray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt Mahoney wrote: [...] Lenat briefly mentions Sergey's (one of Google's founders) goal of solving AI by 2020. FWIW I solved AI theory-wise in 1979 and software-wise in 2007. http://mind.sourceforce.net/Mind.html and http://www.scn.org/~mentifex/jsaimind.html and http://visitware.com/AI4U/jsaimind.html are True AI demo versions. I think if Google and Cyc work together on this, they will succeed. The Mentifex solution to AI is messy. About thirty parameters of AI have been orchestrated and coordinated to produce a minimal thinking artificial Mind. What the late Christopher McKinstry and the late Pushpinder Singh tried to achieve in their web-mind (pace Ben G :-) programs can be achieved, albeit messily, in Mind.html or in http://mind.sourceforge.net/mind4th.html (lagging behind Mind.html) either by hard-coding a minimal subject-verb-object KB (as I did) or by data-entry when users teach the artificial Mind new facts. On another note, something which may alarm our fellow list members, I am thinking of replacing the Terminate exit from Mind.html with a [ ] Death check-box that will pop up a plea for mercy, with an ethical user-decision to be made about AI life or death. If the Mentifex AI programs Mind.html [AI-Complete] and Mind.Forth have truly solved AI, the open-access Site Meter logs will reveal an enormous rush to fetch the free AI source code. That escalation has not happened yet, but you are all welcome to click on Site Meter and see such curious visit logs as the following example from a few days ago, which was apparently made to a local copy of a Mentifex page: Visit 190,585 [] [] Domain Namesenate.gov ? (United States Government) IP Address 156.33.25.# (U.S. Senate Sergeant at Arms) ISPU.S. Senate Sergeant at Arms Location Continent : North America Country : United States (Facts) State : District of Columbia City : Washington Lat/Long : 38.8933, -77.0146 (Map) Language unknown Operating System Microsoft WinXP BrowserInternet Explorer 6.0 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1; InfoPath.1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727) Javascript disabled Time of Visit Jan 12 2007 5:40:01 pm Last Page View Jan 12 2007 5:40:01 pm Visit Length 0 seconds Page Views 1 Referring URL unknown Visit Entry Page Visit Exit Page Out Click Time Zone unknown Visitor's Time Unknown Visit Number 190,585 - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?list_id=303 - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?list_id=303
Re: [agi] Project proposal: MindPixel 2
--- YKY (Yan King Yin) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not an academic (left uni a couple years ago) so I can't get academic funding for this. If I can't start an AI business I'd have to entirely give up AI as a career. I hope you can understand these circumstances. Aren't there companies looking for AI researchers? Google? Maybe another approach (the one I took) is to publish something innovative, and people come to you. It won't make you rich, but I have so far gotten 3 small consulting jobs designing and writing data compression software or doing research, all from home, simply because people have seen my work on my website (PAQ compressor, large text benchmark, Hutter prize) or they just saw my posts on comp.compression. I never looked for any of this work. I make enough teaching at a nearby university as an adjunct, with lots of time off. I'm sure I could make more money if I wanted to work long hours in an office, but I don't need to. PAQ introduced a new compression algorithm (context mixing) when PPM algorithms were the best known. PAQ would not have made it to the top of the benchmarks without the ideas and coding and testing efforts of others working on it with no reward except name recognition. That would not have happened if it wasn't free (GPL open source). Even now, I'm sure nobody would pay even $20/copy when there is so much free competition. Other good compressors (Compressia, WinRK) have failed with this business model. I think if you want to make a business out of AI, you are in for a lot of work.First you need something that is truly innovative, that does something that nobody else can do. What will that be? A search engine better than Google? A new operating system that understands natural language? A car that drives itself? A household servant robot? A program that can manage a company? A better spam detector? Text compression? Write down a well defined goal. Do research. What is your competition? How are your ideas better than what's been done? Prove it (with benchmarks), and the opportunities will come. -- Matt Mahoney, [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?list_id=303
Re: [agi] Project proposal: MindPixel 2
On 1/18/07, Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- YKY (Yan King Yin) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not an academic (left uni a couple years ago) so I can't get academic funding for this. If I can't start an AI business I'd have to entirely give up AI as a career. I hope you can understand these circumstances. ... I think if you want to make a business out of AI, you are in for a lot of work.First you need something that is truly innovative, that does something that nobody else can do. What will that be? A search engine better than Google? A new operating system that understands natural language? A car that drives itself? A household servant robot? A program that can manage a company? A better spam detector? Text compression? Wow, those are very strong prerequisites to start an AI company! No AI company to date has created a household servant robot or NL OS. I think AI companies can exist around less formidable goals. I also like Guy Kawasaki's point (paraphrasing) that if you have a good idea, at least 5 other startups are working on it. If you have a great idea, at least 10. Write down a well defined goal. Do research. What is your competition? How are your ideas better than what's been done? Prove it (with benchmarks), and the opportunities will come. Not all successful companies have a quantitative proof that they are the best. Probably most do not. I'm not saying your assertion prove it...and (they) will come is incorrect, but that it's not the only basis for a startup. Re: business, you also need the right story to attract funding, the right approach to sales and a good deal of luck. Novamente, *afaik*, has no proof via benchmark but does have paying AI contracts that sustain them. And still no robot butler! (I want one.) Btw I found Ben's 22 page recap of his experiences at WebMind to be useful: http://www.goertzel.org/benzine/WakingUpFromTheEconomyOfDreams.htm And there is good info here: http://www.amazon.com/Micro-ISV-Vision-Reality-Bob-Walsh/dp/1590596013/sr=8-1/qid=1169144626/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2460655-8624059?ie=UTF8s=books Finally: Open source is one way. Commercial is another. Both have succeeded and failed many times over and will continue to do so. Neither will be going away any time soon. -Chuck - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?list_id=303
Re: [agi] Project proposal: MindPixel 2
On 1/19/07, Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think if you want to make a business out of AI, you are in for a lot of work.First you need something that is truly innovative, that does something that nobody else can do. What will that be? A search engine better than Google? A new operating system that understands natural language? A car that drives itself? A household servant robot? A program that can manage a company? A better spam detector? Text compression? Write down a well defined goal. Do research. What is your competition? How are your ideas better than what's been done? Prove it (with benchmarks), and the opportunities will come. Thanks for the tips. My idea is quite simple, slightly innovative, but not groundbreaking. Basically, I want to collect a knowledgebase of facts as well as rules. Facts are like water is wet etc. The rules I explain with this example: Cats have claws; Kitty is a cat; therefore Kitty has claws. Here is an implicit rule that says if X is-a Y and Z(Y), then Z(X). I call rules like this the Rules of Thought. They are not logical tautologies but they express some common thought patterns. My theory is that if we collect a bunch of these rules, add a database of common sense facts, and add a rule-based FOPL inference engine (which may be enhanced with eg Pei Wang's numerical logic), then we have a common sense reasoner. That's what I'm trying to build as a first-stage AGI. If it does work, there may be some commercial applications for such a reasoner. Also it would serve as the base to build a full AGI capable of machine learning etc (I have crudely worked out the long-term plan). So, is this a good business idea? YKY - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?list_id=303
Re: [agi] Project proposal: MindPixel 2
I agree with Ben's post that this kind a system has been tried many times and produced very little. How can a collection of Cats have claws; Kitty is a cat; therefore Kitty has claws. relate cat and kitty and that kitty is slang and normally used for a young cat. A database of this type seems to be like the Chinese room dilemma where even if you got something that looked intelligent out of the system, you know for a fact that no intelligence exists. To know that a cat is a mammal as are people and dogs can only be had by a huge collection of interrelated models that show the relationships, properties, abilities etc of all of these things. Such models could be automatically created (probably) by using this kind of information tidbits that you suggest but the process would be very messy and the size of database would be enormous. It would be like the AI trying to find the rules and relations of things out of a huge pile of word facts. Why not just build the rules and relationships into the AI from the beginning, populating the models with relevant facts as you go. This could be done with much less labor by using the AI itself to build the models by using higher and higher levels of teaching methods by multiple individuals. Computer languages use a strict subset of English to populate their syntax. People use English to communicate with each other. Why would we want to use a new language like Lojban when we already use subsets of English with computers? Why does an arbitrary English sentence have to be unambiguous? Most of the time this isn't a problem for English language people and where it might be a problem why couldn't it just be clarified the same as we humans do all the time? The teachers of the AI could intentionally use an unambiguous subset of English and gradually use more and more sophisticated sentences as the intelligence of the AI progressed. Isn't this what we do with children as they grow up? Most people verify they understand instructions given to them before them actually act on those instructions and potential misunderstandings are normally avoided. Why can't we do the same with an AI? Adding an additional language won't eliminate the need for the humans using English or the computer using it's English subset language. Whatever the ambiguity problem is between humans and computers, will only be transported to between the human and the new language for no net benefit. David Clark - Original Message - From: Benjamin Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [agi] Project proposal: MindPixel 2 YKY, this kind of thing has been tried many dozens of times in the history of AI. It does not lead to interesting results! Alas... The key problem is that you can't feasibly encode enough facts to allow interesting commonsense inferences -- commonsense inference seems to require a very massive store of highly uncertain knowledge-items, rather than a small store of certain ones. BTW the rule if X is-a Y and Z(Y), then Z(X). exists (in a slightly different form) in Novamente and many other inference systems... I feel like you are personally rediscovering GOFAI, the kind of AI that I read about in textbooks when I first started exploring the field in the early 1980's Ben G Thanks for the tips. My idea is quite simple, slightly innovative, but not groundbreaking. Basically, I want to collect a knowledgebase of facts as well as rules. Facts are like water is wet etc. The rules I explain with this example: Cats have claws; Kitty is a cat; therefore Kitty has claws. Here is an implicit rule that says if X is-a Y and Z(Y), then Z(X). I call rules like this the Rules of Thought. They are not logical tautologies but they express some common thought patterns. My theory is that if we collect a bunch of these rules, add a database of common sense facts, and add a rule-based FOPL inference engine (which may be enhanced with eg Pei Wang's numerical logic), then we have a common sense reasoner. That's what I'm trying to build as a first-stage AGI. If it does work, there may be some commercial applications for such a reasoner. Also it would serve as the base to build a full AGI capable of machine learning etc (I have crudely worked out the long-term plan). So, is this a good business idea? YKY This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?list_id=303 - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?list_id=303 - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?list_id=303
Re: [agi] Project proposal: MindPixel 2
Well YKY, I don't feel like rehashing these ancient arguments on this list!! Others are welcome to do so, if they wish... ;-) You are welcome to repeat the mistakes of the past if you like, but I frankly consider it a waste of effort. What you have not explained is how what you are doing is fundamentally different from what has been tried N times in the past -- by larger, better-funded teams with more expertise in mathematical logic... -- Ben On 1/18/07, YKY (Yan King Yin) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Call me GOFAI ;) I have thought about this for quite some time and I'm not just copying old ideas On 1/19/07, Benjamin Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The key problem is that you can't feasibly encode enough facts to allow interesting commonsense inferences Yes, we need a lot of thought rules -- they are needed, and there is no escape except to encode them. Machine learning may help (the rules can be learned), but I think human encoding can get us quite far already. That's why I want to start a project to collect such rules. -- commonsense inference seems to require a very massive store of highly uncertain knowledge-items, rather than a small store of certain ones. Totally disagree! I actually examined a few cases of *real-life* commonsense inference steps, and I found that they are based on a *small* number of tiny rules of thought. I don't know why you think massive knowledge items are needed for commonsense reasoning -- if you closely examine some of your own thoughts you'd see. The rules in my system need not be certain. They can be *defeasible* and augmented with Pei Wang's c,f (confidence and frequency) values (which I think is a very good idea). I feel like you are personally rediscovering GOFAI, the kind of AI that I read about in textbooks when I first started exploring the field in the early 1980's Indeed I am very much influenced by those books. That's not necessarily a bad thing!! YKY This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?list_id=303 - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?list_id=303
