Re: Apple-Crop: UK: Organic nutrient levels 'no higher'
That makes sense. It's very easy to pump up organic fruit using excessive nitrogen, the results ought to be close. The organic nutrients break down to the same chemicals as those used in conventional growing. I don't think you can really make a good scientific assessement unless you control all the variables on both sides, organic and inorganic, because surely two different organic crops might show different nutrient contents, the same would be true of two inorganic crops, depending on fruit size, weather, soil and so on. Frankly, I'm getting tired of both sides butchering science. All of this isn't based on anything scientific even if people claim to use statistical analysis. The right way to find out would be to do two plots side by side in identical soil an climactic conditions, one organic, one conventional, then compare results after 5 years of growing. Now that would be much more believable. On Aug 1, 2009, at 10:10 PM, Dave Rosenberger da...@cornell.edu wrote: Many studies on nutritional differences are meaningless because of flawed methodology. For many fruits and vegetables (and especially for apples), the antioxidants and other beneficial compounds are found primarily in the skin or external tissues where they serve to protect plants from attack by insects and diseases. Given that scenario, it is easy to see that smaller fruits will have higher concentrations of these beneficial compounds than will larger fruits due to a higher surface-to-volume ratio for smaller fruits. Any study that does not match up fruit size when comparing organic and conventional health benefits should therefore be disregarded as flawed science unless one is willing to assume that organic fruit is always smaller. I have not surveyed the literature to determine how many studies have included this sizing factor in their comparisons, but I would guess that the majority have not. To follow this one step further, the blueberries in my home garden were subjected to a hailstorm in late May and the hail marks were very evident at harvest. As I picked these cosmetically flawed berries, I began to wonder if blueberries that sustained hail damage would have produced extra anti-oxidants as they healed off the hail damage. So perhaps someone should do a study to determine if hail-damage fruit is actually more healthy than cosmetically perfect fruit? These sorts of results must depend on which studies are included in the review. Also, on the perspective of the funder of the study--The UK Food Standards Agency has been saying for years that there is no nutritional difference between organically and conventionally grown foods. For another perspective, see: http://www.organic-center.org/science.nutri.php?action=viewreport_id=126 Brian Caldwell Department of Crop and Soil Sciences 905 Bradfield Hall Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 ba...@cornell.edu 607-255-4747 Cell: 607-280-3652 Fax: 607-255-2644 -- ** Dave Rosenberger Professor of Plant PathologyOffice: 845-691-7231 Cornell University's Hudson Valley LabFax:845-691-2719 P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528Cell: 845-594-3060 http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/faculty/rosenberger/ -- The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard http://www.virtualorchard.net and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon Clements webmas...@virtualorchard.net. Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent official opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for the content. -- The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard http://www.virtualorchard.net and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon Clements webmas...@virtualorchard.net. Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent official opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for the content.
Re: Apple-Crop: LA Times Re: organic
I have a mixed reaction to this article. This article almost reads as if it says the world isn't black and white, so forget organics. That seems rather short sighted. The truth is that organic fruits and veggies are not only better for your health, but they're also better for the environment. The organic pesticides have a much shorter half-life. The truth is also that generally, organic fruits and vegetables have better flavor. Walk into a safeway and try it out on the apples, it never fails. But things aren't so easy at farmers markets and roadside fruit stands. It's also true that there are small scale non-organic farmers that really grow outstanding fruits, and me, personally, even though I am a die-hard organic fruit buyer, I do lower my standards to accommodate them. I will not walk away from delicious moorpark apricots if they're not certified organic, We have many local growers that are not certified, but make an extra effort to use as little pesticide as possible, and they should not be punished by the consumer. My orchard also has the sandy nutrient poor soil that the article uses as an example, and yes, even though I try to be organic on the pesticides, I complement organic manure and fish emulsion with ammonium nitrate and potassium nitrate whenever a tree shows major nitrogen deficiencies. I don't sell my produce, but if I did, I'd probably give up the chemical fertilizer because organic fruit commends a higher price. With that being said, I will walk away from the tasteless non-organic fruits and vegetables at the grocery store. They're disgusting, might as well sell cardboard. But when I go to a health food store that sells organic produce, the difference is striking: the organic produce is so much better it's not even in the same league. So yes, there it is definitely true that organic tastes way better! So just because the world isn't black and white, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. it's not an either/or situation, organic is in fact better, but it's also about making exceptions. Rules about what to do or not to do don't serve anyone well. Humans are given brains for a reason: to use them and not be on automatic pilot operating by some rules like a computer program: consumers need to open their eyes, and make decisions case by case, especially at the farmer's market, because every vendor, every person, and every day is unique. Here in the West, organic farming isn't really so hard. But on the East coast, there are so many bugs that it makes it almost impractical to be organic lest the consumer is willing to eat ugly looking fruit. In my opinion, therein lies the problem: we are turning into a plastic society, everything has to be antiseptic and perfect looking. And that's the main reason I probably will never sell any of my fruit from my 200 tree orchard. I know people who threw in the towel because they got so fed up to see people walk away from incredibly good tasting but not perfect looking fruit to buy the bland fruits just because they're big and pretty. To me, an oddly shaped, heavily ribbed, russeted apple is a delight to the eyes, and I can't wait to sink my teeth into it. Another great example: lately, I've been eating a nice crop of Espagne pears, a French Summer pear that blets like a medlar, a.k.a. turns brown and mushy when ripe, but the brown mush is an incredible delight to the senses, like pie filling, like a nectar of the Gods, a cross in between a medjool date and a pear. Do you think I can easily find an American out there who'd be willing to eat that? Nope, they prefer their tasteless cardboardy bartlett pears, except maybe the chefs are upscale restaurants, who serve a more open minded clientele. So let the people who are on automatic pilot go and buy their produce at safeway, the rest of us can go and delight in our ugly, russeted, scabby but scromtuously delicious fruit, organic is prefferable, especially if you don't care what the fruit looks like, but go ahead and cheat a little. :) From: Smith, Tim smit...@wsu.edu To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:53:14 AM Subject: Apple-Crop: LA Times Re: organic This reporter has a fresh outlook. http://www.latimes.com/features/food/la-fo-calcook1-2009jul01,0,2885942.story Timothy J. Smith WSU Extension
Re: Apple-Crop: LA Times Re: organic
Nonsense! Copper concerns me, but what is the harm of lime sulfur? Are you telling me I should stop going to my favorite sulfur hot Springs which are loaded with the stuff? Aside of the rotten egg smell, I don't see the harm with lime sulfur. I use this stuff all the time, it has not harmed me, it's actually good for the skin if diluted properly. Lime sulfur is used for pets too, takes care of parasites. http://www.nextag.com/lime-sulfur-dip/compare-html Keep it out of your eyes and don't drink it, and you will be fine. Different forms of sulfides are also used in dandruff shampoos. I would not take a bath in any water with dissolved inorganic pesticides, but lime sulfur, I'd put that in my jacuzzi to simulate the hot Springs. BTW, here in the West, fighting inorganic pesticide use is old hat, the fringe has moved on to find new causes and is now fighting the organic pesticides. So maybe you guys could all chime in and pretty soon we won't be able to use anything. From: Mo Tougas m...@tougasfarm.com To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 3:36:49 PM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: LA Times Re: organic Dare I add this. What the article lacks is what the organic movement hopes the public never learns, and that is the fact that the movement has deliberately mislead, often times outright lied to the public to forward its financial goals. The public overwhelmingly believes that organic means either not sprayed, not sprayed with pesticides , not sprayed with toxic pesticides or not sprayed with anything toxic. Or that because it is natural, it is benign. The organic industry has done nothing to right this misconception. I can't say that I blame them. Certainly if the truth were known, the advantage would be lost. Imagine if the average Joe or Mary spent a day pruning, or thinning in an orchard sprayed 2 days ago with sulfur or better yet, lime sulfur. Perhaps a reporter or two should be encouraged to do so. Pot stirred. Mo Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough, MA On Jul 21, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Dave Rosenberger wrote: Sorry, Alex, but all conventional pesticides produced in the past three decades have a MUCH shorter half-life than copper which is approved for organic. Also, I agree that organic farming is much easier in desert climates. However, it appears to me that western organic growers (and conventional farmers as well) have been and continue to be largely dependent on federally subsidized and/or state-funded water systems. The water management systems in western irrigated agriculture may have had less environmental impact that the wide-spread use of DDT from the 1940's through the 1960's, but it would be interesting to know the comparative environmental costs of the two systems. Pesticides that were developed in the past two decades have relatively short residual life-spans or half-lives. The water management systems used to produce the vast amounts of food that come from western irrigated farmland continue to drain water flows that formerly maintained wild salmon populations and other aspects of healthy stream ecology. So which system is ultimately more damaging if the ideal is to maintain healthy natural systems? Flavor comparisons are very difficult because everyone's preferences are different. I certainly agree that produce in chain-store retail outlets often lacks flavor, but in my opinion, that fact has little to do with organic vs. non-organic. It has a lot more to do with which cultivars and selections will hold up to our long-distance and impersonal food handling systems. Finally, I'll repeat my two main arguments against organic: First, lists of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable for organic production have evolved from a mish-mash of nonscientific tradition and folklore with little or no scientific basis for those decisions. Second, organic foods generally are not available to those in the lower socio-economic quadrant of our society because it costs too much. The constraints on organic agriculture (perhaps with the exception of corporate farms in desert climates) almost guarantee that organic food will be more expensive because production costs are higher and/or productivity per acre is lower. (I know that higher cost and/or lower productivity is not always the case for organic ag, but it is still largely true. Therefore, don't bother replying with the examples of the exceptions!) Everyone has a right to pay more for the food of their choice if they can afford it, just as everyone has a right to drive a gas-guzzling Hummer if they can afford that. However, I detect similar levels of socio-economic arrogance and an attitude of I don't want to know the truth about real environmental costs among those who swear by organic foods and those who drive Hummers. I'll support everyone's right to choose, but I object when proponents of
Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight Update
Sorry, I meant to say use retromycin sulfate, which is perfectly legal to use on plants, and even has the right EPA label, I just used neosporin as a way to keep the powder on the cuts. I thought neosporin had bactrin in it, apparently it doesn't. It would work equally well with silicon paste or any other pasty substrate. But anyway, I am truly sorry I ever even posted this. If someone isn't even allowed to experiment and have someone on this list threaten with Federal law, well, then so be it, given that this is the second nasty E-mail I got, consider this to be my last post on this list. You people take yourself way too seriously. Good bye. From: Dave Rosenberger da...@cornell.edu To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 10:24:09 AM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight Update I've enjoyed reading the postings and opinions concerning how to manage fire blight in Alex's Ernst Bosch apple tree. Those of us who have worked with or experienced fire blight know that this disease is very difficult to understand and manage. What works on one cultivar, in one year, or in one location may fail to work on another cultivar/year/location and what is cost-effective for one apple grower may be totally implausible in other economic models. Thus, I'm not going to debate Alex's observations. HOWEVER, I feel obligated to point out that within the boundaries of the United States (and I believe that still includes California), application of an antibiotic paste to pruning cuts is a violation of federal law. Any product used in that manner would require a federal pesticide label from EPA. That requirement applies to homeowners and hobby farmers as well as commercial growers. So far as I know, no antibiotic pastes are labeled for use on tree fruits to control fire blight. There are good reasons for these regulations, but I won't take time to discuss them. The bottom line is that using human or veterinary antibiotics on fruit trees or other crop plants is both illegal and potentially dangerous. I posted a while back on an Ernst Bosch Apple tree that came down with fireblight. I wanted to share with the group what had happened, although I must say that after reading the latest Illinois Fruits and Vegetable Crop news, I am grateful not to have to deal with the fireblight outbreak that the Midwest is experiencing this year. We are not in a fireblight prone area due to our cool, dry conditions, but this year, fireblight has broken out in a number of local orchards thanks to a warm and humid, rainy and drizzly week in May. So this has been a learning experience for me. I finally figured out how to deal with the fireblight infection, here is what I did: Since only one of my 200 trees (of which 80 are apple trees on MM111) came down with fireblight, my focus was to eliminate any further disease vectors, so removal of the tree is the only solution. However, I am a scientist by training, and my curiosity got me to play with the tree for a bit to try to understand what is going on. Here are some of the observations: Step one was to cut, but to my dismay, the infection returned, even after several cuts. Disinfecting the shears seemed irrelevant. The morning dew collecting on the cuts would often turn orange, and the drops would carry the infection to lower limbs. Step two was to try to figure out if the re-infection vector was external, or the bacteria was already systemic in the cambium. So for the next sets of cuts, my approach was to coat the cuts with a oily antibiotic paste with a bactrin base (bactrin is a wide spectrum antibiotic). The coating would prevent re-infection from external sources, but not if the bacteria is systemic in the cambium. Sure enough, another set of cuts lead to more infection, the ooze coming from under the paste. It only took 24 hours for the wood to turn orange under the paste, proof that the infection came from inside the tree, not from external sources or from the pruning sheers. Step 3 was to prune back radically, past the node of the infected branch. Upon close inspection, I discovered that the cambium had a darker shade, Cutting into the darker shaded areas revealed healthy wood, but the cut turned orange within 24 hours and would start to ooze. However, cutting several inches below any slightly darkened areas did not cause the wood to turn orange, and no re-infection took place. Step 4 was to douse the tree with antibiotic to make sure there is not any residual fireblight bacteria on the tree. I used a combination of bactrin and retromycin sulfate to treat the tree and surrounding mulch. At this point, it's safe to say the fireblight active infection is gone, although I believe the bacteria is still in the tree, but dormant for now even though there are no visible cankers. Since the tree is so young, I plan on
Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch - what are the mechanisms of re-infection?
Vincent, Thanks for the insight. I have no data to back up my claims - at least not yet. It's merely a theory that the re-infection must be coming from vectors on the bark. I have not tried to disinfect the surrounding bark and verified this, because the tree has recovered on its own. Fireblight is not an issue in our county because of our dry Mediterranean climate (zero rainfall between April 15 and Nov 1). This year was an exception thanks to a single week of warm and humid rainy weather during bloom - something that rarely if ever happens here. I have a few questions: 1) What is the mechanism of re-infection? If cutting into healthy wood, and conditions are no longer favorable, why does a tiny infection at the cut develop? It's only about 2 mm of fireblight, very, very small. For me, it would suggest two possible scenarios: either the bacteria is already in the tree but doesn't actively grow unless a cut occurs, or the bacteria is on the surface of the tree. 2) How does one determine if the infection is systemic? I routinely disinfect my sheers with lysol in between cuts just to be on the safe side. I will try to cut again just to see what will happen, but only after treating the entire tree with retromycin sulfate. If the tiny localized infection re-occurs, I will be forced to conclude the tree is systemically infected, because it's very dry right now, there is no other vectors around. I will be pulling the entire tree after the Fall crop - for now it poses no threat since we are warm and dry until October/November and there is no cancer, no oozes, and no die back, but long term I can't afford having a single tree harboring fireblight in my orchard. From: Vincent Philion vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 5:30:38 PM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch Hello Axel, For three consecutive years we compared sterile shears vs non sterile shears. As long as you are cutting in healthy wood (obviously) we observed the same percentage of reinfection. I'm not sure what data you have to support your claim, but our observations simply don't support what you write. In the article we conclude that speed of intervention is the key. Anything that will slow you down, including sterilizing shears or tree or wound or whatever, is more detrimental than simply cutting out diseased branches as fast as you can. The real key is to get as many of these diseased branches off the trees. This limits disease spread to other trees. Furthermore, the longer diseased branches stay on the tree, the longer they pump bacteria down the tree and into the rootstock, the higher the likelihood of death. Other considerations are minor. Vincent On 22-Jun-2009, at 4:54 PM, Axel Kratel wrote: I finally figured out what is going on. Because of the earlier infection, the tree bark is covered with fireblight bacteria even though the wood is not infected. A cut with pruning sheers inevitably re-infects the tree at the cut location. A real important step in controlling fireblight is to fully sterilize the tree, or sterilize the cut area before pruning, sterilize after pruning, and seal the cut so that the fireblight bacteria present on the bark on surrounding branches can't infect the tree. From: Vincent Philion vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 1:20:12 PM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch Hi! we tried to restart trees by leaving a few nodes above the graft, but failed miserably. The darn trees never re-sprouted. We had much better success pruning out the diseased portions. We also found sterilizing shears was a waste of time. The article can be found at: Toussaint, V., and Philion, V. 2007. NATURAL EPIDEMIC OF FIRE BLIGHT IN A NEWLY PLANTED ORCHARD AND EFFECT OF PRUNING ON DISEASE DEVELOPMENT. In XI International Workshop on Fire Blight 793, ISHS, p. 313-320. Vincent On 18-Jun-2009, at 2:17 PM, Mark Longstroth wrote: Good Job Allen. I discussed that type of program Monday with a grower. Other sad fireblight tales. I had a grower who planted RubiJon this spring, which bloomed after normal and now have blossom blight. I suggested cutting back to 2 or 3 nodes above the graft union in an effort to save the rootstock (M26) on any tree that showed any symptoms. He also had a block of Idared on G30 which got fireblight in the fall (leaf hoppers?). He noticed 30 dead trees out of 150 this winter when he pruned but about half the planting has or is collapsing now and he will remove them all. - Mark Longstroth SW Michigan District Fruit Educator Van Buren County MSU Extension Email - longs...@msu.edumailto:longs...@msu.edu http://web1.msue.msu.edu/vanburen/disthort.htm
Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch
I finally figured out what is going on. Because of the earlier infection, the tree bark is covered with fireblight bacteria even though the wood is not infected. A cut with pruning sheers inevitably re-infects the tree at the cut location. A real important step in controlling fireblight is to fully sterilize the tree, or sterilize the cut area before pruning, sterilize after pruning, and seal the cut so that the fireblight bacteria present on the bark on surrounding branches can't infect the tree. From: Vincent Philion vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 1:20:12 PM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch Hi! we tried to restart trees by leaving a few nodes above the graft, but failed miserably. The darn trees never re-sprouted. We had much better success pruning out the diseased portions. We also found sterilizing shears was a waste of time. The article can be found at: Toussaint, V., and Philion, V. 2007. NATURAL EPIDEMIC OF FIRE BLIGHT IN A NEWLY PLANTED ORCHARD AND EFFECT OF PRUNING ON DISEASE DEVELOPMENT. In XI International Workshop on Fire Blight 793, ISHS, p. 313-320. Vincent On 18-Jun-2009, at 2:17 PM, Mark Longstroth wrote: Good Job Allen. I discussed that type of program Monday with a grower. Other sad fireblight tales. I had a grower who planted RubiJon this spring, which bloomed after normal and now have blossom blight. I suggested cutting back to 2 or 3 nodes above the graft union in an effort to save the rootstock (M26) on any tree that showed any symptoms. He also had a block of Idared on G30 which got fireblight in the fall (leaf hoppers?). He noticed 30 dead trees out of 150 this winter when he pruned but about half the planting has or is collapsing now and he will remove them all. - Mark Longstroth SW Michigan District Fruit Educator Van Buren County MSU Extension Email - longs...@msu.edu http://web1.msue.msu.edu/vanburen/disthort.htm - -Original Message- From: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-c...@virtualorchard.net]on Behalf Of Allen Teach - Sunrise Orchard Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 1:01 PM To: Apple-Crop Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch Gentlemen: I certainly agree with Mark to get rid of the culprit tree yesterday. However, let me relay an experience we had last year. On a five acre block of 3rd leaf Honeycrisp on B9 and CG 16 (tall spindle) we had some blossom blight on very late rat tail bloom and began seeing sporadic shoot blight in late June. I immediately made ugly stub cuts on the affected branches, fired up the sprayer and applied Apogee to the entire block. I continued to patrol the block and reapplied the Apogee about 3 weeks later. this is totally unscientific but we were able to avoid a disaster. Granted Honeycrisp/B9-CG 16 is not extremely susceptible but we had the trees set up with water and fertilizer to grow vigorously. Allen Teach Sunrise Orchards Inc. Gays Mills, WI P.S. Let's all dodge the severe weather the next couple of days! - Original Message - From: Axel Kratel To: Apple-Crop Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 11:18 AM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch Mark, that sounds like good advice. Basically, I cut once, that didn't help. I cut again. if it comes back again I will yank out the tree. I do have a question for the group: When fireblight die back shows up as a result of flowers getting rained on, which of these two reasons would cause it: 1) Fireblight is systemic in the tree 2) Fireblight was brought to the tree from an outside vector. Thanks. From: Mark Longstroth longs...@msu.edu To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:36:12 AM Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch Axel, If I had a 4 year old tree in an orchard of 200 trees with fireblight that bad, I would yank it out of the ground today! In my experience, 4 year old trees with that bad an infection don't survive. It sounds like the bacteria is running faster than you can cut and in my experience it will run very fast in wood back through three year old wood and in a 4 year old tree it is just a short jump to the rootstock. MM111 is rated as moderately resistant and I doubt it will survive with an infected susceptible scion such as you describe. If you inject strep into the tree you might save it or find out that you have a resistant strain in your orchard. Do you really want a source of fireblight in your orchard while you try to save one tree? What are you going to do if you have a storm which spreads the infection to other trees? Get rid of it now while the infection is only in one tree. It is much easier to manage fireblight if you do not have a source in the orchard. I saw
Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch
Mark, that sounds like good advice. Basically, I cut once, that didn't help. I cut again. if it comes back again I will yank out the tree. I do have a question for the group: When fireblight die back shows up as a result of flowers getting rained on, which of these two reasons would cause it: 1) Fireblight is systemic in the tree 2) Fireblight was brought to the tree from an outside vector. Thanks. From: Mark Longstroth longs...@msu.edu To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:36:12 AM Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch Axel, If I had a 4 year old tree in an orchard of 200 trees with fireblight that bad, I would yank it out of the ground today! In my experience, 4 year old trees with that bad an infection don't survive. It sounds like the bacteria is running faster than you can cut and in my experience it will run very fast in wood back through three year old wood and in a 4 year old tree it is just a short jump to the rootstock. MM111 is rated as moderately resistant and I doubt it will survive with an infected susceptible scion such as you describe. If you inject strep into the tree you might save it or find out that you have a resistant strain in your orchard. Do you really want a source of fireblight in your orchard while you try to save one tree? What are you going to do if you have a storm which spreads the infection to other trees? Get rid of it now while the infection is only in one tree. It is much easier to manage fireblight if you do not have a source in the orchard. I saw fireblight literally destroy hundreds of acres of apple trees in 2000 here in SW Michigan. The industry still has not recovered from that epidemic. - Mark Longstroth SW Michigan District Fruit Educator Van Buren County MSU Extension Email - longs...@msu.edu http://web1.msue.msu.edu/vanburen/disthort.htm - -Original Message- From: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-c...@virtualorchard.net]on Behalf Of Axel Kratel Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:19 AM To: Apple-Crop Subject: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch Dear all, I have an Ernst Bosch apple tree on MM111 that has developed a pretty bad case of fireblight. I have over 200 trees and I've never seen fireblight here before, so this is a first for me. Symptoms included the classic die back with the orange colored droplets. I've cut the infected wood, and applied serenade, and I've had to go back twice now to cut more. I've cut back quite far, yet the cuts are still turning orange. I disinfected sheers in between cuts. On the last cuts I've resorted to treating the cuts with hydrogen peroxide, but it seems hopeless. Any hope of saving the tree or should I sacrifice it? It's on it's fourth leaf. I am surprised that this variety is so susceptible. The literature claims it's not especially sensitive to fireblight. Thanks for your advice. I am willing to forgo organic to save a tree, so if there's any sort of systemic treatment that would be possible, I would consider it. Serenade is a good preventative, but it's too late for this tree.
Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch
We've had a very abnormal Spring. El Nino is kicking in, and as a result, we've had a number of low pressure systems drop south from the Gulf of Alaska that spin off the coast and suck in moisture out of the subtropics. Upwelling has ceased, and our water temperatures offshore are 15F higher than normal (normally 45F at the Farralone islands, currently at 60F) so overnight temps are unusually warm too (upper 50's as opposed to upper 40's.) This tree bloomed right during a week when conditions were ideal for fireblight - 1 week of fog/drizzle/rain at 65-75F. I've never seen this sort of thing before here as May is typically warm and dry. This Spring has been the worst as far as disease is concerned. I've cut off more than 6 inches away on each branch. My sense is that this variety is abnormally sensitive to fireblight. The question is, what happens to the bacteria when it gets warmer? Does it just go dormant in the tree? From: Bill Shoemaker wshoe...@illinois.edu To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 5:39:41 PM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch Axel You're in a tough place Alex. Bacterial diseases are generally tough, and in woody plants like apples, incredibly persistent. If you're cutting out infected material, I hope you're cutting back at least 6 from the infection. Any pest control material you use right now may be futile until conditions cease favoring disease. Just hold in there until warmer, drier weather prevails, then re-assess. I'm not familiar with the variety, but perhaps its not a good match for your climate. Good luck. Bill William H Shoemaker, UI-NRES Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops St Charles Horticulture Research Center 535 Randall Road St Charles, IL 60174 630-584-7254; FAX-584-4610 -- The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard http://www.virtualorchard.net and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon Clements webmas...@virtualorchard.net. Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent official opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for the content.
Apple-Crop: Fireblight on Ernst Bosch
Dear all, I have an Ernst Bosch apple tree on MM111 that has developed a pretty bad case of fireblight. I have over 200 trees and I've never seen fireblight here before, so this is a first for me. Symptoms included the classic die back with the orange colored droplets. I've cut the infected wood, and applied serenade, and I've had to go back twice now to cut more. I've cut back quite far, yet the cuts are still turning orange. I disinfected sheers in between cuts. On the last cuts I've resorted to treating the cuts with hydrogen peroxide, but it seems hopeless. Any hope of saving the tree or should I sacrifice it? It's on it's fourth leaf. I am surprised that this variety is so susceptible. The literature claims it's not especially sensitive to fireblight. Thanks for your advice. I am willing to forgo organic to save a tree, so if there's any sort of systemic treatment that would be possible, I would consider it. Serenade is a good preventative, but it's too late for this tree.
