Re: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn?
Rye: to quickly correct the problem, I suggest that you use ammonium phosphate. It has about 35% available phosphorus and it is highly soluble in water. After that I suggest you use a properly composted manure or Rock phosphate. Manure will also correct the problem and add organic matter into the soil. Rock phosphate is not very soluble in water but over time it will get into the trees and prevent the problem from happening. Mosbah Kushad, University of Illinois. From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Rye Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 11:06 AM To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn? Mosbah, That's good to know since I have sandy soil, and locally to those trees that have the most red the soil is the sandiest in the orchard. Thanks for all the input, I'm getting an awesome chemistry lesson as well as. This all seems to be correlating well to phosphorus. Which should be confirmed by lab test. Low and behold the weather is starting to warm up today. Thanks! Rye Hefley Future Farmers Marketer So. Cal. Mosbah Kushad Wed, 18 May 2011 14:30:59 -0700 In addition to leaf analysis, I suggest you send soil samples as well. Phosphorus binds to calcium and magnesium at high soil pH and to iron and aluminum at low soil pH, tying up the phosphorus. Also, course soils (sandy soils) have less phosphorus than fine soils. Mosbah , University of Illinois From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Ron Becker Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 2:28 PM To: 'Apple-crop discussion list' Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn? Phosphorous deficiency will give leaves a reddish color on many types of plants. Sending a leaf sample to a lab for foliar analysis would be a way to confirm this. Ron Becker9a Ohioline-www.ohioline.osu.edu http://ohioline.osu.edu/ From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Rye Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:10 PM To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Subject: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn? I know that subject is probably making you go Huh? I know that because that is what I'm thinking Huh? Some of my trees have new leaves growing out red like Autumn but gaining is size. And, new (red) leaves are still growing out after them and extending the shoot. Earlier leaves just below these are healthy green. These trees are a few of what were planted this year so they are developing the leader and bottom scaffolds of what will be Oblique Palmettes. The reason for the subject Reverse Autumn is because this happened earlier this year as well and those leaves eventually turned a healthy green when fully developed. I've concluded (could be wrong) that the leaves are lacking chlorophyll as the texture of the leaves are soft and supple as opposed to dead and dry. I'm hoping that the chlorophyll will inject again, but concerned because the red is deeper than it was last time. I don't really have enough data to say this, but I will anyway: Both times this happened was during a cooling off of the weather which seem to stimulate rapid growth. The first time this happened the green came in when the weather warmed up and growth wasn't quite as rapid. I'm hoping for a repeat, though I'm liking the rapid growth. Is this indicative of a nutrient problem or other stressor? I have been monitoring soil moisture so I'm not thinking it's a water problem. Also PH is slightly out of range on the high side just above 6.5, but that doesn't seem to bother the trees which are also growing rapidly as many leaders including these are approaching the second wire 22 above the heading cut at the first wire. I have found this picture on the web identifying nitrogen deficiency. http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/min-def/apple.htm but it doesn't say whether this would present on new leaves only. Or if nitrogen deficiency would turn older leaves red which is not happening in this case; the older lower leaves are still beautiful green. Also I can't tell from the photo if the leaves in the picture are dry or supple. I am considering maybe this is a local deficiency (local to those trees) and adding some 15-15-15 on them, but everywhere I look says not to add fertilizer on new plantings to avoid root burn. But wouldn't growth be retarded if there was a deficiency? (This is what is confusing because
Re: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn?
Mosbah, That's good to know since I have sandy soil, and locally to those trees that have the most red the soil is the sandiest in the orchard. Thanks for all the input, I'm getting an awesome chemistry lesson as well as. This all seems to be correlating well to phosphorus. Which should be confirmed by lab test. Low and behold the weather is starting to warm up today. Thanks! Rye Hefley Future Farmers Marketer So. Cal. Mosbah Kushad Wed, 18 May 2011 14:30:59 -0700 In addition to leaf analysis, I suggest you send soil samples as well. Phosphorus binds to calcium and magnesium at high soil pH and to iron and aluminum at low soil pH, tying up the phosphorus. Also, course soils (sandy soils) have less phosphorus than fine soils. Mosbah , University of Illinois From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Ron Becker Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 2:28 PM To: 'Apple-crop discussion list' Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn? Phosphorous deficiency will give leaves a reddish color on many types of plants. Sending a leaf sample to a lab for foliar analysis would be a way to confirm this. Ron Becker9a Ohioline-www.ohioline.osu.edu http://ohioline.osu.edu/ From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Rye Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:10 PM To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Subject: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn? I know that subject is probably making you go Huh? I know that because that is what I'm thinking Huh? Some of my trees have new leaves growing out red like Autumn but gaining is size. And, new (red) leaves are still growing out after them and extending the shoot. Earlier leaves just below these are healthy green. These trees are a few of what were planted this year so they are developing the leader and bottom scaffolds of what will be Oblique Palmettes. The reason for the subject Reverse Autumn is because this happened earlier this year as well and those leaves eventually turned a healthy green when fully developed. I've concluded (could be wrong) that the leaves are lacking chlorophyll as the texture of the leaves are soft and supple as opposed to dead and dry. I'm hoping that the chlorophyll will inject again, but concerned because the red is deeper than it was last time. I don't really have enough data to say this, but I will anyway: Both times this happened was during a cooling off of the weather which seem to stimulate rapid growth. The first time this happened the green came in when the weather warmed up and growth wasn't quite as rapid. I'm hoping for a repeat, though I'm liking the rapid growth. Is this indicative of a nutrient problem or other stressor? I have been monitoring soil moisture so I'm not thinking it's a water problem. Also PH is slightly out of range on the high side just above 6.5, but that doesn't seem to bother the trees which are also growing rapidly as many leaders including these are approaching the second wire 22 above the heading cut at the first wire. I have found this picture on the web identifying nitrogen deficiency. http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/min-def/apple.htm but it doesn't say whether this would present on new leaves only. Or if nitrogen deficiency would turn older leaves red which is not happening in this case; the older lower leaves are still beautiful green. Also I can't tell from the photo if the leaves in the picture are dry or supple. I am considering maybe this is a local deficiency (local to those trees) and adding some 15-15-15 on them, but everywhere I look says not to add fertilizer on new plantings to avoid root burn. But wouldn't growth be retarded if there was a deficiency? (This is what is confusing because nutrient deficiency and rapid growth seem to contradict each other.) So my options are: 1) wait and see if the green comes in when the weather warms up like last time and attribute to rapid growth? (or further damage is done) 2) add fertilizer to one tree to see how it responds. This is a small orchard (176 trees) so I'm sensitive to damaging even one tree with an experiment. Anyone have experience with this? Or any thoughts or advice before I act or not act and maybe make matters worse? If it is a nitrogen deficiency what would be the lesser of the evils (deficiency or root burn)? BTW, I also have a row of ornamental trees nearby and they are all doing the same thing but not as completely red as these apple trees. All new leaves have red but eventually turn fully beautifully green when fully developed. Those trees (I have been told are cottonwood, by some, dogwood by others, all I know for sure is they are deciduous) I heavy pruned them in winter and they are well established root-wise and growing back in very rapid. Again the rapid growth hypothesis. Sorry
Re: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn?
Often phosphorus deficiencies are induced by cold temperatures, which leads to leaf color changes. There is interaction between genetics and environment that leads to variable expression of these induced deficiencies. Rye, has your season been cooler than normal in So Cal? Once warmer temperatures set in the color usually returns to normal. Bill William H. Shoemaker Sr. Research Specialist, Food Crops University of Illinois - Crop Sciences St Charles Horticulture Research Center 535 Randall Road, St Charles, IL, 60174 630-584-7254, FAX-584-4610 wshoe...@illinois.edu _ From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Ron Becker Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 2:28 PM To: 'Apple-crop discussion list' Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn? Phosphorous deficiency will give leaves a reddish color on many types of plants. Sending a leaf sample to a lab for foliar analysis would be a way to confirm this. Ron Becker Program Coordinator, Ag IPM OSU Extension, Wayne County Website-www.wayne.osu.edu http://wayne.osu.edu/ Ohioline-www.ohioline.osu.edu http://ohioline.osu.edu/ From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Rye Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:10 PM To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Subject: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn? I know that subject is probably making you go Huh? I know that because that is what I'm thinking Huh? Some of my trees have new leaves growing out red like Autumn but gaining is size. And, new (red) leaves are still growing out after them and extending the shoot. Earlier leaves just below these are healthy green. These trees are a few of what were planted this year so they are developing the leader and bottom scaffolds of what will be Oblique Palmettes. The reason for the subject Reverse Autumn is because this happened earlier this year as well and those leaves eventually turned a healthy green when fully developed. I've concluded (could be wrong) that the leaves are lacking chlorophyll as the texture of the leaves are soft and supple as opposed to dead and dry. I'm hoping that the chlorophyll will inject again, but concerned because the red is deeper than it was last time. I don't really have enough data to say this, but I will anyway: Both times this happened was during a cooling off of the weather which seem to stimulate rapid growth. The first time this happened the green came in when the weather warmed up and growth wasn't quite as rapid. I'm hoping for a repeat, though I'm liking the rapid growth. Is this indicative of a nutrient problem or other stressor? I have been monitoring soil moisture so I'm not thinking it's a water problem. Also PH is slightly out of range on the high side just above 6.5, but that doesn't seem to bother the trees which are also growing rapidly as many leaders including these are approaching the second wire 22 above the heading cut at the first wire. I have found this picture on the web identifying nitrogen deficiency. http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/min-def/apple.htm but it doesn't say whether this would present on new leaves only. Or if nitrogen deficiency would turn older leaves red which is not happening in this case; the older lower leaves are still beautiful green. Also I can't tell from the photo if the leaves in the picture are dry or supple. I am considering maybe this is a local deficiency (local to those trees) and adding some 15-15-15 on them, but everywhere I look says not to add fertilizer on new plantings to avoid root burn. But wouldn't growth be retarded if there was a deficiency? (This is what is confusing because nutrient deficiency and rapid growth seem to contradict each other.) So my options are: 1) wait and see if the green comes in when the weather warms up like last time and attribute to rapid growth? (or further damage is done) 2) add fertilizer to one tree to see how it responds. This is a small orchard (176 trees) so I'm sensitive to damaging even one tree with an experiment. Anyone have experience with this? Or any thoughts or advice before I act or not act and maybe make matters worse? If it is a nitrogen deficiency what would be the lesser of the evils (deficiency or root burn)? BTW, I also have a row of ornamental trees nearby and they are all doing the same thing but not as completely red as these apple trees. All new leaves have red but eventually turn fully beautifully green when fully developed. Those trees (I have been told are cottonwood, by some, dogwood by others, all I know for sure is they are deciduous) I heavy pruned them in winter and they are well established root-wise and growing back in very rapid. Again the rapid growth hypothesis. Sorry for rambling, thanks for listening and thoughts are appreciated. Rye Hefley Future Farmers Marketer So. Cal. ___ apple
Re: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn?
Bill, yes it has been unusually cool and I have noticed this tendency seems to coincide with colder weather. We had a hot spell, to which I relate the red leaves in the first episode turning green upon reaching full size, between these two cold spells. Also, this redding tendency seems to be more pronounced in varieties adapted to hot climates (Ein Shemer, Anna) and less on high chill varieties. Though if I charted chill requirement against (subjective) reddishness there would be a strong trend but still anomalies: Some Ein Shemer looking pretty good and some yellow newtown pippin presenting some red. It's supposed to warm up again soon. I'll try to be patient and if the color doesn't return I'll have to take Ron's suggestion and get an analysis. Maybe the cold is underscoring local soil deficiency. I bet the ornamental trees showing the same pattern are hot climate adapted as well. Thanks guys! Rye Hefley Future Farmers Marketer So. Cal. ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn?
In addition to leaf analysis, I suggest you send soil samples as well. Phosphorus binds to calcium and magnesium at high soil pH and to iron and aluminum at low soil pH, tying up the phosphorus. Also, course soils (sandy soils) have less phosphorus than fine soils. Mosbah , University of Illinois From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Ron Becker Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 2:28 PM To: 'Apple-crop discussion list' Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn? Phosphorous deficiency will give leaves a reddish color on many types of plants. Sending a leaf sample to a lab for foliar analysis would be a way to confirm this. Ron Becker9a Ohioline-www.ohioline.osu.edu http://ohioline.osu.edu/ From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Rye Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:10 PM To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Subject: [apple-crop] Reverse Autumn? I know that subject is probably making you go Huh? I know that because that is what I'm thinking Huh? Some of my trees have new leaves growing out red like Autumn but gaining is size. And, new (red) leaves are still growing out after them and extending the shoot. Earlier leaves just below these are healthy green. These trees are a few of what were planted this year so they are developing the leader and bottom scaffolds of what will be Oblique Palmettes. The reason for the subject Reverse Autumn is because this happened earlier this year as well and those leaves eventually turned a healthy green when fully developed. I've concluded (could be wrong) that the leaves are lacking chlorophyll as the texture of the leaves are soft and supple as opposed to dead and dry. I'm hoping that the chlorophyll will inject again, but concerned because the red is deeper than it was last time. I don't really have enough data to say this, but I will anyway: Both times this happened was during a cooling off of the weather which seem to stimulate rapid growth. The first time this happened the green came in when the weather warmed up and growth wasn't quite as rapid. I'm hoping for a repeat, though I'm liking the rapid growth. Is this indicative of a nutrient problem or other stressor? I have been monitoring soil moisture so I'm not thinking it's a water problem. Also PH is slightly out of range on the high side just above 6.5, but that doesn't seem to bother the trees which are also growing rapidly as many leaders including these are approaching the second wire 22 above the heading cut at the first wire. I have found this picture on the web identifying nitrogen deficiency. http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/min-def/apple.htm but it doesn't say whether this would present on new leaves only. Or if nitrogen deficiency would turn older leaves red which is not happening in this case; the older lower leaves are still beautiful green. Also I can't tell from the photo if the leaves in the picture are dry or supple. I am considering maybe this is a local deficiency (local to those trees) and adding some 15-15-15 on them, but everywhere I look says not to add fertilizer on new plantings to avoid root burn. But wouldn't growth be retarded if there was a deficiency? (This is what is confusing because nutrient deficiency and rapid growth seem to contradict each other.) So my options are: 1) wait and see if the green comes in when the weather warms up like last time and attribute to rapid growth? (or further damage is done) 2) add fertilizer to one tree to see how it responds. This is a small orchard (176 trees) so I'm sensitive to damaging even one tree with an experiment. Anyone have experience with this? Or any thoughts or advice before I act or not act and maybe make matters worse? If it is a nitrogen deficiency what would be the lesser of the evils (deficiency or root burn)? BTW, I also have a row of ornamental trees nearby and they are all doing the same thing but not as completely red as these apple trees. All new leaves have red but eventually turn fully beautifully green when fully developed. Those trees (I have been told are cottonwood, by some, dogwood by others, all I know for sure is they are deciduous) I heavy pruned them in winter and they are well established root-wise and growing back in very rapid. Again the rapid growth hypothesis. Sorry for rambling, thanks for listening and thoughts are appreciated. Rye Hefley Future Farmers Marketer So. Cal. ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
