Re: [apple-crop] Vertical Scaffold Spacing
For those who have high-density orchards, do you find trellising with one wire at about 9 feet provides sufficient support, if a bamboo stake or the like is placed at each tree? Randy Steffens Jr Shepherd's Valley Orchards Middle Tennessee On Feb 28, 2011, at 6:55 AM, Con.Traas wrote: I agree with Terence and Dave, Their experience and concerns have been borne out here in Ireland over the past number of years, where it has been survival of the more dense (orchards rather than orchardists). Obviously there are limits, but in our own case, for our single line orchards we have opted for 4 ft. x 11ft., and we have found this a good spacing for the more vigorous Elstar variety (more vigorous than Golden Delicious or Jonagold at least). We do not grow the trees as high as at lower latitudes (more mutual shading from taller trees when you come this far North), and have found that a limit of about 5 ½ to 6 feet height of cropping wall works well. In practice, this wall commences about 2 feet above the ground, and finishes at 7.5 feet, facilitating all harvesting and pruning from ground level. Con Traas ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Vertical Scaffold Spacing
I had problems with just one 8' high wire. Trees bowed too much under fruit load. Trees midway between trellis posts pulled the wire down causing the entire row to be pulled down and bowed. Bamboo was ¾ diameter. One wire added later at 5 alleviated the problem. Bill Fleming Montana State University Western Ag Research Center 580 Quast Ln Corvallis, Montana From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Randy Steffens Jr Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 7:43 AM To: Apple-crop discussion list Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Vertical Scaffold Spacing For those who have high-density orchards, do you find trellising with one wire at about 9 feet provides sufficient support, if a bamboo stake or the like is placed at each tree? Randy Steffens Jr Shepherd's Valley Orchards Middle Tennessee On Feb 28, 2011, at 6:55 AM, Con.Traas wrote: I agree with Terence and Dave, Their experience and concerns have been borne out here in Ireland over the past number of years, where it has been survival of the more dense (orchards rather than orchardists). Obviously there are limits, but in our own case, for our single line orchards we have opted for 4 ft. x 11ft., and we have found this a good spacing for the more vigorous Elstar variety (more vigorous than Golden Delicious or Jonagold at least). We do not grow the trees as high as at lower latitudes (more mutual shading from taller trees when you come this far North), and have found that a limit of about 5 ½ to 6 feet height of cropping wall works well. In practice, this wall commences about 2 feet above the ground, and finishes at 7.5 feet, facilitating all harvesting and pruning from ground level. Con Traas ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.netmailto:apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Vertical Scaffold Spacing
Bill, did you mean 5? Bill William H. Shoemaker Sr. Research Specialist, Food Crops University of Illinois - Crop Sciences St Charles Horticulture Research Center 535 Randall Road, St Charles, IL, 60174 630-584-7254, FAX-584-4610 wshoe...@illinois.edu I had problems with just one 8 high wire. Trees bowed too much under fruit load. Trees midway between trellis posts pulled the wire down causing the entire row to be pulled down and bowed. Bamboo was ¾ diameter. One wire added later at 5 alleviated the problem. Bill Fleming Montana State University Western Ag Research Center 580 Quast Ln Corvallis, Montana ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Vertical Scaffold Spacing
Yes, sorry. Monday morning you know Bill Fleming Montana State University Western Ag Research Center 580 Quast Ln Corvallis, Montana From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of William H Shoemaker Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 8:49 AM To: 'Apple-crop discussion list' Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Vertical Scaffold Spacing Bill, did you mean 5'? Bill William H. Shoemaker Sr. Research Specialist, Food Crops University of Illinois - Crop Sciences St Charles Horticulture Research Center 535 Randall Road, St Charles, IL, 60174 630-584-7254, FAX-584-4610 wshoe...@illinois.edumailto:wshoe...@illinois.edu I had problems with just one 8' high wire. Trees bowed too much under fruit load. Trees midway between trellis posts pulled the wire down causing the entire row to be pulled down and bowed. Bamboo was ¾ diameter. One wire added later at 5 alleviated the problem. Bill Fleming Montana State University Western Ag Research Center 580 Quast Ln Corvallis, Montana ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Vertical Scaffold Spacing
Hi Randy: I have had several trellising trials and I can tell you that it is difficult to keep the trees growing upright and to keep them from snapping at the graft union (especially Gala), if you use a single wire. The only possibility is to use a vigorous rootstock in the M.26 size. Use a 10' metal conduit, place the wire at a height (6' to 7') so that you can walk under the wire when trees are still young and insert the rest of the conduit in the ground. It did a fair job for us in Central Illinois because we have a very rich soil that makes trees on M.26 almost as big as on M.7. I would be hesitant to recommend it on sandy type soils or on M.9 or smaller rootstocks. Hope this helps, Mosbah Mosbah M. Kushad Food Crops Extension Specialist and Postharvest Physiologist University of Illinois 1201 West Gregory Drive Urbana, Illinois 61801 phone (217)244-5691 From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Randy Steffens Jr Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 8:43 AM To: Apple-crop discussion list Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Vertical Scaffold Spacing For those who have high-density orchards, do you find trellising with one wire at about 9 feet provides sufficient support, if a bamboo stake or the like is placed at each tree? Randy Steffens Jr Shepherd's Valley Orchards Middle Tennessee On Feb 28, 2011, at 6:55 AM, Con.Traas wrote: I agree with Terence and Dave, Their experience and concerns have been borne out here in Ireland over the past number of years, where it has been survival of the more dense (orchards rather than orchardists). Obviously there are limits, but in our own case, for our single line orchards we have opted for 4 ft. x 11ft., and we have found this a good spacing for the more vigorous Elstar variety (more vigorous than Golden Delicious or Jonagold at least). We do not grow the trees as high as at lower latitudes (more mutual shading from taller trees when you come this far North), and have found that a limit of about 5 ½ to 6 feet height of cropping wall works well. In practice, this wall commences about 2 feet above the ground, and finishes at 7.5 feet, facilitating all harvesting and pruning from ground level. Con Traas ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Vertical Scaffold Spacing
--- On Sun, 2/27/11, Randy Steffens Jr randyjrsteff...@me.com wrote: From: Randy Steffens Jr randyjrsteff...@me.com Subject: [apple-crop] Vertical Scaffold Spacing To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Date: Sunday, February 27, 2011, 6:10 AM How much vertical distance do you generally employ to separate primary scaffold branches on semi-dwarf Apple trees trained to central leader? Various university publications don't agree on spacing. Cornell extension publication 112 (written 1972) says at least 8 inches vertically between each branch is necessary, and that less space can cause the central leader to loose dominance. But more recent publications from other universities such as Univ. of NC and Univ. of VA imply it's fine if they all emerge from practically the same level. Is the Cornell publication old advice, or is the spacing really not that big a deal? What are the spacings you use for common rootstocks like M106 or G11? Is there any compelling reason to move towards adopting Cornell's textbook approach in our orchards? Randy Steffens Jr Shepard's Valley OrchardsMIddle Tennessee -Inline Attachment Follows- _My experience, Spacing has to do with what you have to pay for land and how much you want to reduce labor,how important coloring is,, Wide planted trees are easier to prune,pick,good to color all around the tree,(lower cull rate),less transfer of fire blight and alot easier to get good spray coverage. As long as I have many unplanted acres left on my ground,I will space wide, I have Gala on B-9 and m-9 at 6 foot spacing, should have been 12 feet,Goldens on G11 at 8 feet, should have been 14.Some of my rows were 18 feet,just right, some were 14 feet,disaster, If you have reasonable priced land give yourself plenty of room.Quit thinking X number of bushels per acre,that;s a trap, think bushels per orchard. lee Elliott,, Winchester,IL apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Vertical Scaffold Spacing
It has been my experience that two scaffolds may originate at near the same height without choking the central leader - three originating at the same height will devigorate the leader eventually - the longer the tree lives, the more difference it makes - D On Feb 27, 2011, at 7:10 AM, Randy Steffens Jr wrote: How much vertical distance do you generally employ to separate primary scaffold branches on semi-dwarf Apple trees trained to central leader? Various university publications don't agree on spacing. Cornell extension publication 112 (written 1972) says at least 8 inches vertically between each branch is necessary, and that less space can cause the central leader to loose dominance. But more recent publications from other universities such as Univ. of NC and Univ. of VA imply it's fine if they all emerge from practically the same level. Is the Cornell publication old advice, or is the spacing really not that big a deal? What are the spacings you use for common rootstocks like M106 or G11? Is there any compelling reason to move towards adopting Cornell's textbook approach in our orchards? Randy Steffens Jr Shepard's Valley Orchards MIddle Tennessee ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Vertical Scaffold Spacing
Concerning the spacing discussion below, it is worth noting that fertilizer and pesticide costs are not insignificant in the overall cost of orchard management. One can make some adjustments in pesticide rates based on tree size and (with a smart sprayer) by not spraying gaps between trees. Nevertheless, each added acre of orchard will add significant carrying costs. Pesticide/fertilizer costs alone, without the associated costs for labor and equipment, are now approaching $1,000/A for orchards in the northeast. (I'm sure some folks are doing it for less, of course.) Based on pesticide costs alone, I'd much rather grow 10,000 bushels of apples on 5 acres as compared to 5,000 bushels on 10 acres. At $1000/A, pesticide costs will average 50 cents per bushel for the high-yield orchard and $2/bushel on the low-yield orchard. Most NY growers 30 years ago were happy with 5,000 bushels from 10 A, whereas the better NY growers now average 10,000 bushels on 5 acres, and that will become more common in the future as older plantings are phased out. Someone direct-marketing their apples may be able to survive despite spending $2/bushel in pesticide costs. However, the carrying costs of low-density orchards will inevitably strangle producers hoping to compete in the wholesale market. Apple tree spacings recommended for NY orchards may not work in rich soils in the midwest, especially where the growing season is longer than in NY. However, I doubt that anyone can remain competitive in the wholesale apple market if their tree spacing does not allow for the high yields that are becoming common in other regions. The trick may be to move to rootstocks that are even weaker than those used in NY and WA. Besides pesticide costs, other factors may also limit profitability of older orchard systems in the near future. Labor and fuel are both likely to become increasingly scarce (perhaps $10/gal fuel when the current upheavals in Arab countries reach Saudi Arabia??). High-density orchards will require both less fuel and less labor (at least when calculated on a per-bushel basis) than older lower-density systems. It's really hard to prune and harvest trees on 18-ft centers from a moving platform, and I suspect that moving platforms will become essential for improving production efficiency over the next 5 years. Widely spaced trees that get 20 ft tall may still be a great strategy for marketing apples to consumers who will pay you for the experience of walking through a traditional orchard to pluck apples from branches above their heads. Otherwise, I suspect that era is GONE !! _My experience, Spacing has to do with what you have to pay for land and how much you want to reduce labor,how important coloring is,, Wide planted trees are easier to prune,pick,good to color all around the tree,(lower cull rate),less transfer of fire blight and alot easier to get good spray coverage. As long as I have many unplanted acres left on my ground,I will space wide, I have Gala on B-9 and m-9 at 6 foot spacing, should have been 12 feet,Goldens on G11 at 8 feet, should have been 14.Some of my rows were 18 feet,just right, some were 14 feet,disaster, If you have reasonable priced land give yourself plenty of room.Quit thinking X number of bushels per acre,that;s a trap, think bushels per orchard. lee Elliott,, Winchester,IL apple-crop mailing list http://us.mc354.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=apple-crop@virtualorchard.netapple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crophttp://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- ** Dave Rosenberger Professor of Plant PathologyOffice: 845-691-7231 Cornell University's Hudson Valley Lab Fax:845-691-2719 P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528Cell: 845-594-3060 http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/faculty/rosenberger/ ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
