Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth?

[Todd Sandercock]

Couldn't agree more with you Adam.
The total ban of a fundamental part of the sport in a national competition is 
ridiculous.

Todd



From: Adam Woolley aussiejuniort...@hotmail.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Monday, 8 August 2011 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth?


Untitled Document 
Sadly the Australian competition scene isn’t strong enough to uphold what 
I’m about to suggest, so I know it wont happen (until we can get back to the 
100+ regular entrants again).  

The Nationals is just that, the 
nationals.  Not a kindergarten or beginners comp, or a place we go to fold 
envelopes.  A Nationals.  I say, if you don’t like the heat – 
then get out.  Since meeting Dave McManus and becoming best mates, my life 
long ambition is to represent Australia, and see Dave win World Gliding 
Championships.  Me, I’m happy with 2nd place – which in effect is also a 
win.  Dave strengths are in inter-thermal cruising, mine are in the 
climbs.  Yes, Dave and I can practice these skills on weekends, but what’s 
important is to practice against other effective teams (and great solo pilots) 
under pressure.  Not weekend soaring pressure, but competitions where we’re 
forking out a few thousand dollars – to make it real!
 
Winners can also be solo pilots too, absolutely – many have done this, and 
against amazing teams.  Kawa against the red hot GER’s (Mario Kiessling and 
Michael Buchthal) at the SK WGC last 
year.  Edwards in Uvalde!  plenty to mention.  I just wish I 
could be this good!
 
If the team hasn’t got a special bond like the three young Brits @ the 
JWGC’05, whom placed 1st, 2nd and 3rd, or like Dave and I.  Then the ‘team’ 
is destined to ... (or should I say, not get on the podium).  I can’t 
believe we send solo pilots to worlds that say they’re going to team fly, it 
spells disaster right from the start.  Quite often these solo pilots are 
from opposite sides of our massive country, which almost have no opportunity to 
practice.  Dave and I flew 200hrs in team formation (plus 2 x DUO flights) 
before going to the UK.  In the end, we practiced so much that if we had a 
comm failure (which we actually encountered three days before the end of the 
jnr 
worlds), we could team fly without talking on the radios!  Having said all 
that, I’d be more happy to sponsor a team if they said, “We’ll co-operate and 
pass on information daily, however we’ll be flying our own race once the start 
gate opens”.  Which is exactly how the jnr STD Class team for GB is going 
to go this year, as they’ve identified that if they fly as a team – the overall 
result will be worse.
 
In AUS though, if we did allow team flying again – as Tim said, ‘the 
Nationals fleet dwindle again’.  Which is ultimately what all of us don’t 
want to happen.  So sadly, for the next 5 or so years – I have to support 
the ‘no team flying’ argument.  
 
In the ideal AUS gliding world of course, I’d say no team flying in the 
Regatta’s (unless it’s a purpose run team comp!), Easter Comps and States.  
Team flying (max three to a team) allowed in the Nationals.  Don’t like the 
heat, then get out – we’re not here to fold envelopes!
 
 
Cheers,
WPP
 
  
From: Tim Shirley 
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 9:18 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating 
to Soaring in Australia. 
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it 
worth?
  Two 
things matter about team flying - results, and perceptions.  Results 
because that's how you win the silverware, and perceptions because that is what 
drives participation.  Or not.

If team flying didn't help, people 
wouldn't want to do it.  If team flying does help, it is then unfair to 
those who can't do it or who want to start off in the sport but don't have a 
team.

In what other sport, is it OK to play singles on one side of the 
net and doubles on the other, and have the doubles players tell you that it 
doesn't really help and they only do it for social reasons? 

Experience 
for those with long memories, is that rampant team flying is at least one of 
the 
factors that drives newcomers away.  That may be from a perception that the 
sport is a series of small closed groups that no one is allowed to join.  
It you want to see the Nationals fleet dwindle again, that's one way to do 
it.

Cadel Evans didn't win the Tour de France without his team.  But 
notice that in that sport, everyone is in a team, and the strength of the team 
contributes to the strength of the leader, and team members are happy to (or at 
least, are paid to) sacrifice their results for the leader and the team.  
In gliding, the equivalent would be that certain team members (let's call them 
domestiques) fly off as soon as the gate opens, mark thermals for the leader, 
and then just cruise home at the back of the peleton.   I was at a 
gliding World Comps where that happened - one pilot having lost a 

Re: [Aus-soaring] Electric propulsion

[Todd Sandercock]

Tien Yu is much more confident and speaks much better english when not behind a 
camera. It's great to see him speak the truth about electric flight and 
batteries rather than all the other companies there glossing over the facts.

Yuneec is an amazing company to look out for. A couple years ago when they were 
developing their technologies I managed to get a tour of the factory and fly 
one 
of their early electric aircraft (electric paramotor). I suspect many other 
companies will use yuneec power systems in their aircraft in the near future. I 
imagine they will eventually release an electric plug and play kit like 
Pipistrel too (Just my opinion).

Todd




From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Tue, 19 April, 2011 1:24:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Electric propulsion

Interesting interview with the owner of Yuneec International:

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2011/110415yuneec_working_on_four-seat_electric_airplane.html


Mike
Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

email:  mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
website: www.borgeltinstruments.com 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] 4 Corners story on QF32

[Todd Sandercock]

Jonny's blog has all of his video's and stories of his flying. Always good to 
keep an eye on.. http://jonnydurand.blogspot.com/




From: DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Wed, 30 March, 2011 11:31:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 4 Corners story on QF32

I saw this doco and thought it was remarkably well balanced for TV. RR
did get the finger pointed at them fairly hard, but considering that
Qantas and their insurers are asking for something like $200,000,000
from Rolls, it's not surprising Rolls declined to appear on the show.
I think it did the ABC credit that they didn't go on an unedified
witch hunt after RR without the full facts.

I'm sorry to do the unforgivable and change the topic somewhat, but
it's still gliding and TV.

Did anyone see the Johnny Durand hang gliding section on the 7.30
report immediately before Four Corners? There was some brilliant and
dynamic POV footage of some low altitude flying and landings, one
where Johnny appeared to make his final approach very low over a
cloverleaf flyover and carpark, missing the boundary fence by about
20' before doing a perfect flare and landing.

There was also some spectacular footage of him looping for joy in
front of the morning glory… both air to air and POV. The segment
lasted about 5 minutes and was a terrific advertisement for HG.

One advantage that Johnny has got over the rest of us is that he's
both a top class pilot and a great one for dragging out the camera and
shooting some interesting picture at a critical moment in a comp.
Probably it does not do his result a lot of good, but the pictures are
often fantastic.

I have to say that 99% of our gliding footage is fairly pedestrian
compared with what they showed and is perhaps one reason why we don't
get sponsorship from people like Red Bull. I noted in the last Forbes
HG comp that there was $10,000 in prize money up for grabs.

D

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Ipad

[Todd Sandercock]

That's what gliding instruments need!!!




From: Scott Penrose sco...@dd.com.au
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Tue, 8 February, 2011 2:04:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Ipad

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NotK4TVQ-6E

It shows a Pixel Qi screen against an iPad in full daylight.

Scott

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Re: [Aus-soaring] XCSoar and the Altair

[Todd Sandercock]

Most PICNIC's can be solved via intuitive and robust user interfaces in my 
honest opinion.

Todd

On 18/10/2010, at 8:30 AM, Derek Ruddock derek.rudd...@optus.com.au wrote:

 I prefer ‘PICNIC’ : Problem In Chair Not In Computer J
 
  
 
 From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
 [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mark Fisher
 Sent: Sunday, 17 October 2010 5:09 PM
 To: ha...@interweft.com.au; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in 
 Australia.
 Cc: XCSoar Users; DDSC Chat; Samuel Gisiger; Ernst Ditges; 
 supp...@swiftavionics.com.au; aus Soaring
 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] XCSoar and the Altair
 
  
 
 ... I field a lot of calls personally from competition pilots having last 
 minute software problems that inevitably  I record as PEBCAK. Problem Exists 
 Between Chair and Keyboard
 
  
 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] How Big Are The Carbon Foot Prints?

[Todd Sandercock]

From: Texler, Michael michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Fri, 24 September, 2010 12:15:54 PM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] How Big Are The Carbon Foot Prints?

Slightly O.T. but there seems to be a range of opinion on this list.

I am not for or against fossil versus alternative.
I wish to look at balanced facts without hyperbole, drama and agenda.

I am just sick of the spin from both big fuel and green energy.

We have solar cells.
We have wind turbines.
We have electric cars.
Now electric gliders.

We have fossil fuels too (oil, coal, gas).

Green or renewable energy is often touted as having a lower carbon foot
print.
But is that the local or global carbon foot print. How far does one
look?

How is this worked out?

The minerals and raw materials for solar cells, wind turbines, Li Ion
batteries need to be dug out of the ground. How much fossil fuel does
that use to get it out of the ground? How much CO2 gets produced by
mining the raw materials? How much CO2 gets produced in the
manufacturing process?

OK we can recycle, but how much energy gets used to do that? (i.e.
driving the truck to pick up the old goods, the energy required to
reprocess the material etc.).

What is the carbon foot print of making a modern composite glider
(considering that much of the material is petrochemical derived)?

Having an elctric car is all well and good, but it needs to be plugged
in to charge it up (and the electricity comes from a fossil fuel power
stations).

Wind turbines have a finite lifespan and need to be replaced. they are
made from composite materials. So what is the carbon footprint of
manufacturing the plastic to make them, the energy used to replace the
turbine etc.

I think it is great that alternative energy is being looked at.

Is it better for the planet in the short term or long term.

Is it locally 'carbon friendly' but creates a big carbon footprint
elsewhere?
(i.e. it is all well and good to have an eco friendly energy source, but
bad if the manufacturing process digs up forests, produces toxins and
belches out CO2 etc.).

When all is taken into consideration, are newer 'Greener' energy sources
actually any better than burning fossil fuel?

Increasingly we are being asked to consider alternative energy, I wish
to make informed choices.

If people want to reply off list, that is fine by me.
Where does one get a balanced and factual view?




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Re: [Aus-soaring] Tip camera

[Todd Sandercock]

The Go-Pro Hero HD is the go. We stuck one onto the tip of a glider with the 
supplied taped attachments and it didn't fall off (Don't expect to get the tape 
off too easily!). I don't have any vid uploaded to the net but the quality is 
amazing.

Todd




From: Matthew Scutter yellowplant...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Fri, 27 August, 2010 11:38:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Tip camera

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.44188 --- I have one of these for my 
model glider
The video quality isn't great, but for the price and size it's quite good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pE_nqx05wQ
Here's a sample from a few weeks ago, quality is degraded a bit from usual 
because it was encoded quickly.

Could probably be mounted on top of your instrument panel, which I suspect is 
somewhat more legal than taping it to your wing.

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Al Borowski al.borow...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,
 
I'm not commenting on the legalities, but I'm told GoPro camera work a treat. 
You can set them up to either take photos or video, and they attach via a very 
strong suction cup. 
 
Please don't put one near a control surface. I'm told wingtips are fine, but 
attaching near the tail may cause instability in pitch and yaw.
 
Best regards,
 
Al 


On 27 August 2010 09:48, Peter Brookman brook...@activ8.net.au wrote:

 
Hi Carl,
The attached a photo is one of  my many designs, I have made some to fit on 
the 
tailplane and fin. A good contact for information would be John Parncutt who 
is 
a prolific producer of high quality gliding U-Tube videos. I have upgraded my 
camera from a compact digital to a Contour HD (Helmet cam) with a 135o angle 
and 
have made the wing mounts with a pole lifting the camera position above and 
just 
in front of the wing leading edge. 

Regards
Peter
 
PS some of my earlier videos can be seen on YouTube (BrookyGXC), 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66GiSRDJ9vw  taken with an older helmet 
cam.with 
only normal width vision.
 
One of Johns recent videos  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGgccm_dcIY
 
 
 
 
 
 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:16:55 -0300
From: carlric...@gmail.com
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Tip camera

Does anyone know of/or how to install a tip camera or anytype of camera on a 
Puchacz so we can make those cool videos you see on youtube?
The sugestions i heard so far involve a lot of duct tape. I certainly dont 
want 
to drill a wingtip but theres a tie down hole close to the rollerwheel on the 
wingtips. Maybe that could be used for something. 

Does anyone have any building plans of a camerahosding device or something?
Thanks guys,
Carl

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Re: [Aus-soaring] L-13

[Todd Sandercock]

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8755
temperature,
pressure,
Humidity,
3-axis accelerometer,
Li-ion powered with inbuilt USB powered charger,
Provisions for GPS to be attached,
Record to micro SD (max 2GB),

Bam! and the job is done.

Todd




From: ventu...@unwired.com.au ventu...@unwired.com.au
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Sat, 21 August, 2010 4:15:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] L-13

 
I see this issue as a heads up to the need for developing and fielding  a 
glider 
FDR.
 
The commercial aviation world lives with monitoring, engines for  performance, 
temps, fuel burn etc, airframes for fatigue etc.  They know  there are issues, 
and they don't like nasty surprises. They want to avoid  disasters obviously, 
but they also want to avoid costly damage  repairs,  and on the other side, 
the 
unnecessary expense of unnecessary maintenance.   The extension of many TBO's 
has only been made possible by the building of the  appropriate operational 
data 
records that allowed extensions to those  TBO's.  Thus, Condition Monitoring is 
now an integral part of the  business.
 
The gliding world has been hit with a nasty surprise.  The effects of  L-13 
grounding, if permanent, will be severe, and may terminally damage gliding  in 
this country, and perhaps some others.  Perhaps gliding should consider  
catching up with commercial aviation thinking, in a hurry.
 
The technology exists today to design, build and field a relatively simple  and 
cheap GFDR, using single chip 3 axis accelerometers, that could record all  
necessary parameters quite simply, which could be downloaded and stored on PC's 
 
just as easily as our existing loggers.  The downloads should also be  
regularly 
uploaded to a central repository at say GFA (or elsewhere), and could  also be 
used by clubs and RTOA's etc to monitor not only individual aircraft,  but type 
and fleet usage trends.  The data may also have secondary benefits  in 
monitoring flight performance with a view to indirectly assisting in  analyzing 
the effectiveness of training etc.  In the worst case, they may  even be of 
invaluable assistance in accident investigation.
 
Perhaps some of our techno-savvy / engineering students / young guns in the  
Joey League, might like to give this matter some thought.  Sound like a  good 
thesis project for an Engineering Student at an Australian University doing  
Aeronautical Engineering, or System Process and Control Electronic Engineering, 
 
or similar ?   God forbid, perhaps even the GFA might consider  sponsoring a 
design contest, and the development of a prototype or two.   Comments ?
 
 
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: emilisprelgauskas 
To: Discussion of issues relatingto Soaring in Australia. 
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 3:37PM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] L13

Thank you Ian, for your work to connect people with L13 withpeople with 
older 2 seaters for interim loan, hire, etc.
Those who offered2 seaters on the list might like to either join that 
matching service or lookat the loan, hire, etc. methods being used
with an eye to the capitalcapabilities of the clubs affected. 



The factory email tome:

Dear L13, L13A BLANIK operators,
 
Letme call your attention to new issued EASA AD No.: 2010-0160-E dated 
30.7.
2010. Its full text is attached.
 
TheAD establishes stricter conditions for next operation of the L13, L13A 
BLANIKwith immediate validity.
Thegliders whose complete history of flight spectrum is not proved are 
prohibitedto operate.
Acrobaticflights are prohibited.
Thegliders whose flight limits were exceed more than 50% of dual flights 
and/oracrobatic flights are more then 2% and/or the gliders flew more than 
5 
takeoffs per 1 flight hour – the gliders are grounded.
 
Bythis information all evaluations and statements issued by Aircraft 
Industries,a.s. till today loose their validity. If the gliders do not 
comply with theconditions mentioned hereinabove their next operation is 
prohibited.
 
Weare sorry for this information. However we are in intensive deal with 
EASA 
andwe try to find a solution.
 
Thankyou for your understanding.
Bestregards
 
BohumilaKrizkova
AircraftIndustries, a.s.
ProductSupport Department
Phone:+420-572-817-664
Mobile:+420-604-718-493
Fax:+420-572-817-669
email:   bohumila.krizk...@let.cz
www.let.cz



AtMonarto we have 3 other 2 seaters on-field, so our L13 can sit while the 
issueclarifies. 

Ours met all the administrative and visual check tests, so wewill wait for 
clarifications whether the factory has a different view on whatproves 
complete history of flight spectrum.  


Emilis 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] electric glider

[Todd Sandercock]

Hey Mike

I can say from personal experience that the yuneec power systems seem very good.

I was privileged enough to get a trip over to china last year and test fly one 
of these: http://yuneeccouk.site.securepod.com/paramotor.html

Todd




From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Tue, 27 July, 2010 9:04:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] electric glider

Matthew,

The Fischer TOP is 18KW for self launch and works fine. A little 
extra power plus the ability to use a larger prop for higher 
propeller efficiency (use the 2000rpm motor, not the 2400rpm motor) 
should mean the 20KW is OK at least up to around 400Kg gross.

Optimum might be 30KW for a single seater but they don't make one (yet).

The front guys have a quite small propeller which means the prop 
efficiency isn't all that good. It is power delivered to the glider 
that counts. For low speeds the larger the prop diameter the better.

Just got an automated reply about price. Everyone is at Oshkosh of 
course as it starts today.

Mike



At 09:18 AM 27/07/2010, you wrote:
Front mounting electric motors seem to be increasingly feasible, 
some companies are already selling them.

http://www.front-electric-sustainer.com/http://www.front-electric-sustainer.com/


Their motor goes up to 25kW for use only as a sustainer (1.6m/s), so 
perhaps a more powerful motor is needed for self launching...

~Matthew Scutter~

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:27 AM, Mike Borgelt 
mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.commborg...@borgeltinstruments.com 
wrote:

Anybody want to do an electric self launcher?

http://yuneeccouk.site.securepod.com/PowerMotor_Tech_spec.htmlhttp://yuneeccouk.site.securepod.com/PowerMotor_Tech_spec.html


Off the shelf motor, controller and battery tech.

A 20 Kw motor with controller and 4Kw-hour battery pack along with 
suitable prop should be around 37 Kg mass.
Say under 40Kg installed.

I'm enquiring about price. Will report.

Mike
Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

email: 
mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.commborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
website: http://www.borgeltinstruments.comwww.borgeltinstruments.com
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phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

email:  mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
website: www.borgeltinstruments.com 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] electric glider

[Todd Sandercock]

The powered paraglider lasted about 40 minutes. Heaps of power though so most 
of 
the time not much throttle had to be used to hold height. I am not sure how 
long 
it would last at full throttle. It used the 30A battery listed on their site.

Todd




From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Tue, 27 July, 2010 11:34:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] electric glider

Matthew,

Further to the last post:

With the electric motor there are no reduction belt power losses as 
it is direct drive so not directly comparable to a piston engine.

I'm not entirely convinced about the front power concept. It will 
cause a loss of glide performance by destroying the laminar flow over 
the fuselage front. The story about the R/C glider may have more to 
do with the model not having enough up elevator to trim it at climb 
speed with a high thrust line and moving the motor to the nose  fixed 
that. While the motor is running there is lots of high velocity air 
flowing over the fuselage causing more drag.

In any case while a get you home engine is a good idea it doesn't 
solve the launch problem. 10% of the utility for 90% of the complexity.

Todd,

How much battery on the powered chute?


Mike



At 09:18 AM 27/07/2010, you wrote:
Front mounting electric motors seem to be increasingly feasible, 
some companies are already selling them.

http://www.front-electric-sustainer.com/http://www.front-electric-sustainer.com/


Their motor goes up to 25kW for use only as a sustainer (1.6m/s), so 
perhaps a more powerful motor is needed for self launching...

~Matthew Scutter~

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 8:27 AM, Mike Borgelt 
mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.commborg...@borgeltinstruments.com 
wrote:
Anybody want to do an electric self launcher?

http://yuneeccouk.site.securepod.com/PowerMotor_Tech_spec.htmlhttp://yuneeccouk.site.securepod.com/PowerMotor_Tech_spec.html

Off the shelf motor, controller and battery tech.
A 20 Kw motor with controller and 4Kw-hour battery pack along with 
suitable prop should be around 37 Kg mass.
Say under 40Kg installed.
I'm enquiring about price. Will report.
Mike
Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
email: 
mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.commborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
website: http://www.borgeltinstruments.comwww.borgeltinstruments.com
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Re: [Aus-soaring] iPAD

[Todd Sandercock]

the iPhone doesn't have a rotational accelerometer. Here is the chip used 
http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/12726/lis302dl.htm

Todd




From: Robert Hart ha...@interweft.com.au
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Cc: DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com
Sent: Fri, 4 June, 2010 5:19:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] iPAD

On 04/06/10 16:31, DMcD wrote:
 One of the nerds in the room next door has one and I had a play at
 lunchtime. Without exaggeration, it is ubercool. Very very nice to
 play with. Looking at a few websites, it was better than most computer
 screens by a long way.
 
 However, the weather here does not lend itself to an evaluation in sunlight.
 
 I think the screen technology is a long way away from the old PDA and
 PNA screens. For a start, it has a something-like 179º viewing angle.
 And while it may not be quite as bright as an LX 8000, it has built-in
 GPS, accelerometer, 10-12 hour battery life, auto screen brightness
 control, really good touch screen etc.

The presence of an accelerometer in the iPad (and iPhone) create real issues 
for its using in gliding, particularly gliding competitions. I have had 
demonstrated to me the iPhone operating as an artificial horizon. An AH, as a 
blind flying instrument, is illegal under the current competition rules.

Just how are competition staff supposed to handle this issue? Inspect 
everyone's iPhone to make sure the app is not loaded? Ban iPhones?

With the increasing convergence of electronic devices, I do not think that the 
iPad or iPhone are anywhere near the end of the line on this...

-- Robert Hart  ha...@interweft.com.au
+61 (0)438 385 533  http://www.hart.wattle.id.au

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Re: [Aus-soaring] latest jet glider

[Todd Sandercock]

Hmmm more of an I don't care because I am not going to be around then kind of 
answer than the truth but I take a few valid points out of your argument such 
as gliding being frivolous, trivial and useless.

I believe that in 1972 the Club of Rome released their report and one of the 
summary items was that: if the present growth trends in the world population, 
industrialization, pollution, food production, and resource depletion
continue unchanged, the limits to growth on this planet will be reached 
sometime within the next 100 years. The most probable result will be a rather 
sudden and uncontrollable decline in both population and industrial capacity.
doesn't seem to have much to do with the end of the 20th century to me.

Also I stated:
Considering we are in a resource limited world
which can apply to the past, present and future. Why not do something about 
this now than put it ahead in the future.

Do you think we would have more societal wealth if we have resources for the 
future or if we have cash in the pocket now???

Todd




From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Tue, 1 June, 2010 5:20:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] latest jet glider

At 11:17 PM 31/05/2010, you wrote:
 Considering we are in a resource limited world, 2l sounds a bit better to me 
 than 5l+
 
 Todd
 
 
 From: Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com
 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
 aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
 Sent: Mon, 31 May, 2010 10:02:17 PM
 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] latest jet glider
 
 Most IC powered SLGs can get up to 2000' for about 2 litres of fuel.
 Most modern ones have a climd of 800 fpm or thereabouts at 50kts with
 a steep climb angle.  And although there are millions of moving parts
 in the engine. they're all the type of part that a chap with a lathe
 in the back room can turn up in an hour or so. You can't say that
 about the jets, whatever their advantages.
 
   Far out!!!

I ran the numbers for angle of climb. All numbers ISA sea level as per standard 
practice.

For a 400 Kg flying mass modern 15/18m glider with 68 Kg jet thrust static best 
Angle of Climb is at 50 knots or so at 7 knots climb rate.
At 500 Kg, 60 knots at 6.4 knots RoC.

In both cases CS22 motorglider takeoff performance is met.

You can go to 600Kg like the latest 18m gliders but you need full thrust (80Kg) 
for the takeoff and it doesn't meet CS22 but still isn't bad. You can throttle 
back after obstacle clearance and still get a good rate of climb. Just like 
operating any powered aircraft you take the aircraft weight and conditions of 
the day into account.

No problems here.
---
Obviously whoever made that comment about engine parts hasn't ever manufactured 
anything. In principle it is correct. In the real world you need to know the 
material specification, heat treatment pre and post machining, if any and may 
need specially treated parts to machine - good luck with getting the raw 
crankshaft forging, for example or making a crankcase from a billet with a CNC 
machine. It can be done but is about a difficult as making a set of nozzle 
guide vanes and a turbine blisk and machining to final shape. That is the only 
thing that's difficult in the small jets. The compressors are automotive 
industry parts, the rest alloy steel and aluminium and stainless steel. I think 
there are more moving parts in the carby of a two stroke than in an entire 
small turbine engine.

As for a resource limited world - it seems we may already have run out of up 
and coming engineering talent.

When has the world NOT been resource limited in the sense that people want more 
stuff than they have and it costs more than they are really wanting to pay? 
Just offhand serious considerations of resource constraint  goes back to Thomas 
Malthus or more recently the Club of Rome around 1970. Their predictions for 
the end of the 20th Century were way off.
I can remember a prediction about how photography was doomed because we were 
going to run out of silver due to its use in photography. Efforts were made to  
find a substitute but no satisfactory ones were forthcoming. Look what happened.

Sure we can *make* ourselves resource limited by refusing to allow mining or 
drilling, or refusing to use nuclear power or spending our societal wealth on 
useless energy sinks like windmills and solar panels but if this goes on  
eat your Greens may take on a different meaning.

When it gets to whether 2 litres or 5 litres of fuel is required for a glider 
self launch or 8 litres for an aerotow and it is a serious issue it won't 
matter. Something as frivolous and trivial and useless as gliding will have 
been banned, taxed or otherwise driven out of existence and the organisations 
running it will happily aquiesce as they have done and are doing with all the 
restrictions 

Re: [Aus-soaring] latest jet glider

[Todd Sandercock]

Considering we are in a resource limited world, 2l sounds a bit better to me 
than 5l+

Todd




From: Ron Sanders resand...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Mon, 31 May, 2010 10:02:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] latest jet glider

Most IC powered SLGs can get up to 2000' for about 2 litres of fuel.
Most modern ones have a climd of 800 fpm or thereabouts at 50kts with
a steep climb angle.  And although there are millions of moving parts
in the engine. they're all the type of part that a chap with a lathe
in the back room can turn up in an hour or so. You can't say that
about the jets, whatever their advantages.

   Far out!!!

On 31 May 2010 13:54, DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com wrote:
 Unless I am mistaken, which I usually am, the problem is similar to
 that of things like the Quickie...

 You get a high speed take-off and although you get a reasonably rate
 of climb in fps, you also get a very shallow angle, so things like
 trees at the end of the strip become much more of a problem than they
 would with a slower moving aircraft which has a steeper climb angle.

 I do wonder sometimes if we are not like natives being bought off with
 beads and mirrors. Internal combustion engines, like democracy, are
 pretty awful things, but until something better turns up.

 Most IC powered SLGs can get up to 2000' for about 2 litres of fuel.
 Most modern ones have a climd of 800 fpm or thereabouts at 50kts with
 a steep climb angle.  And although there are millions of moving parts
 in the engine. they're all the type of part that a chap with a lathe
 in the back room can turn up in an hour or so. You can't say that
 about the jets, whatever their advantages.

 D



 On 31/05/2010, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote:
 At 11:46 PM 30/05/2010, you wrote:
pretty long take-off run; high density altitude?
PeterS

 No different from a prop which also loses thrust at high density altitude.
 An initial slow but constant acceleration doesn't actually increase
 the length of the takeoff roll compared to a higher initial
 accleration which decreases as you go faster. You are covering lots
 of ground while going faster so that's where you want the higher
 relative acceleration. For a 400Kg glider with TOP (75Kg initial
 thrust) vs a 400 Kg glider with 68 Kg jets the thrust crossover is at
 about 10 knots. With 56Kg thrust it is at around 21 knots.

 Mike
 Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since
 1978
 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
 fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

 email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
 website: www.borgeltinstruments.com

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Re: [Aus-soaring] various

[Todd Sandercock]

Try chrome.
it beats everything for speed and looks.




From: DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Tue, 10 November, 2009 8:47:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] various

You tried windows 7? i highly recommend it as long as you remove IE and 
replace it with chrome or firefox.
My mate runs it on his macbook even. It's quite a useful laptop now

I have heard that Windows 7 is OK too, even in the Mac camp. However I
have heard that Firefox current versions is not so good... not as good
as Safari at the moment anyway.

For web standards development, the Safari is (IMHO) the standout
leader. Much faster and less obtrusive than FF (on a Mac anyway).

However... W7 won't change the design of most Windows boxes though!

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] various

[Todd Sandercock]

You tried windows 7? i highly recommend it as long as you remove IE and replace 
it with chrome or firefox.
My mate runs it on his macbook even. It's quite a useful laptop now

Todd




From: DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Tue, 10 November, 2009 4:24:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] various

Sometimes, when we have young aspiring engineers as interns here
looking for a job, normally with their own laptops, I get them to turn
them upside down and look at the base to see the side the engineers
and designers forgot. Then I show them a Mac laptop. Inside, outside,
upsidedown or not, the designers didn't forget their job… which was to
design and engineer.

From the English Guardian newspaper. reprinted in the SMH.

I know Windows is awful. Everyone knows Windows is awful. Windows is
like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's
nothing you can do about it. It's grim, it's slow, everything's badly
designed and nothing works properly: using Windows is like living in a
communist bloc nation circa 1981. And I wouldn't change it for the
world, because I'm an abject bloody idiot and I hate myself, and this
is what I deserve: to be sentenced to Windows for life.

That's why Windows works for me. But I'd never recommend it to
anybody else, ever. This puts me in line with roughly everybody else
in the world. No one has ever earnestly turned to a fellow human being
and said, Hey, have you considered Windows?

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/computers/better-the-broken-windows-than-life-with-the-mac-monks-20091103-huew.html

I'm glad I did not start this topic.

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Electric tugs (was applying skills to another activity)

[Todd Sandercock]

A winch would have to be the most efficient for sure. Would be interesting to 
work out how much better it is than a tow plane though.
Does anyone have any figures on the fuel consumption of a winch??

Todd




From: Mike Cleaver wom...@netspeed.com.au
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Fri, 30 October, 2009 9:42:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Electric tugs (was applying skills to another 
activity)

At 18:07 30/10/2009, Morgan wrote:

 Yes, but an electric tug doesn’t have to carry the equivalent of 100L of 
 avgas like a “conventional” electric aircraft would for cross-country flying. 
  If you allowed regenerative battery charging, the tug could completely 
 exhaust its battery getting to 3000ft and then recharge just enough on the 
 way down to allow for a go-around or hold.  The battery + motor should weigh 
 much less than a 6-cylinder Lycoming.
 
 Taras has built a scale model prototype - 40% regenerative efficiency. 75W 
 electric power to fly level.
 
 The airfoil section on the prop must be symmetrical to work as both a 
 windmill and a propeller.  (The next time you meet an aerobatic pilot droning 
 on about symmetric airfoils, ask him what airfoil is on his prop.)  For the 
 best efficiency as a windmill, the prop needs to have a large diameter and 
 the delta-V (change in velocity along a streamline) needs to be minimised, 
 indicating that a descent at close to minimum-sink speed would be required 
 for maximum energy recovery.

  Todd (no relation) said:
 This is the completely wrong thing to be putting the electric motor in. The 
 tug is the problem not the solution. Its the GLIDER that needs to be 
 electric!!

All this makes me wonder why we are talking about lifting either the Internal 
Combustion engine or the batteries into the air if we are really interested in 
energy-saving.

Surely a winch is the most sensible area to use an electric motor to launch a 
sailplane, where you can have as much weight and do not need to shock-proof the 
charging system because they stay fixed on the ground and the charging system 
can be remote from the winch cable driving mechanism.

That's why we can have diesel winches that are so cheap to run, though they 
can't do outlanding retrieves or launch to a remote start point like a tug can.

Incidentally, aerobatic pilots (and they are competing at Temora this weekend) 
may have symmetrical wing sections to fly inverted - but the propeller does not 
need this in-built handicap unless it is intended to use it as an in-flight 
brake, or to both push and pull the aircraft (which would involve also changing 
the direction of rotation, or at least a significant reversal of pitch past the 
full-fine point to be able to drive the airframe tail-first).

Wombat 

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[Aus-soaring] Not gliding but flying none the less

[Todd Sandercock]

Hey all

I would like to show you a video from my final year project doing mechanical 
engineering
http://www.vimeo.com/7307880

Todd


  
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider pilots applying their skills to another activity

[Todd Sandercock]

Ha! yeah right.
This is the completely wrong thing to be putting the electric motor in. The tug 
is the problem not the solution. Its the GLIDER that needs to be electric!!

Anyway here is some calculation that may or may not be correct:

Taking 100l of avgas at about 44.65 MJ/kg and .69kg/l @ 15 degrees would give 
you 3080 MJ of energy.

Taking an IC motor efficiency of about 15% or most likely less gives about 
462MJ going to the prop.

Now going backwards from here because the prop would be common between the 
aircraft:

The prop requires 462MJ through a electric motor which would be getting about 
80% efficiency at best = 577.5MJ

Changing this to common power terms gives us about 160kWh of power required. 
Now this is where electric always dies:
a reasonable LiPo battery will give about 150Wh/kg so you can quickly see that 
providing enough battery power is going to get really weighty
160/.15 = 1066kg of battery!

Now I am not going to estimate the recovery of energy through a wind-milling 
prop but I would suspect that a variable pitch prop designed to efficiently 
pull the aircraft through the sky would be an extremely inefficient windmill. I 
would guess that the energy regeneration would be extremely low.

Todd





From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Fri, 30 October, 2009 8:20:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider pilots applying their skills to another 
activity

At 07:25 AM 30/10/2009, you wrote:
 Mike Borgelt wrote:
 
 
 Somebody really ought to look at electric towplanes too. It might just be 
 the first real practical use for an electric aircraft and the economics 
 compared to an I.C. engined towplane just might even make some sense.
 I would expect the viability to be significantly improved if regenerative air 
 braking in a steep descent was included by having the propeller spinning the 
 generator.  Very rapid descents (decreasing tug turn round) that also return 
 energy to the battery would be possible.
 
 --
 Robert Hart mailto:ha...@interweft.com.auha...@interweft.com.au
 +61 (0)438 385 533  http://www.hart.wattle.id.au
 ___

Excellent point, Robert. Now would some bright young mechanical engineer care 
to run some numbers and publish them here? I'm looking at you ,Todd.

Mike
Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

email:  mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
website: www.borgeltinstruments.com 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider pilots applying their skills to another activity

[Todd Sandercock]

Is cost what its all about mike???




From: Dion Stuart Baker diob...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Wed, 28 October, 2009 7:11:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider pilots applying their skills to another 
activity

With the recharging problem, I heard an interesting idea on BBC radio a while 
ago.

There was someone in the US lobbying for the idea of swap stations, where 
there would be a universal standard of battery size, type, positioning, 
mounting system (quick release) etc. This would then enable there to be 
swap-stations where one can rock up, pay a fee and just pull their own battery 
out and put in a pre-charged one. That battery would then be charged and passed 
onto someone else once it's fully charged.

For every option there are your pro's and cons, and that the pro's of electric 
vehicles (using a renewable power supply to recharge) vastly outweighs the cons.

And as a side note, I never said that the government should build the 
infrastructure to support recharging (or swap) stations for electric cars, but 
I said it's good he's making a point about the need for these things. If a 
company is going to build electric cars, they need to make sure there's a way 
to support them outside of a private residence, be it building the stations 
needed, or lobbying other companies who are in a better position to to build 
them.

Dion


2009/10/28 emilis prelgauskas emi...@emilis.sa.on.net

Hi Mike,

I'm Rachel, Emilis's   partner.
You need to listen to Simon's answers to all of this. Actually you have the 
wrong end of the stick, particularly when it comes to battery technology and 
cost compared to petrol. (And I know how good you are at what you do!)

Incidentally, they officially broke the World Record yesterday for the longest 
distance travelled by a production electric car on a single battery charge 
(501 km).
this is probably the last time this week I'll check Emilis's email, so bye 
for now!!

Rachel


On 28/10/2009, at 6:41 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote:


At 10:52 AM 28/10/2009, you wrote:

I was wondering if SImon was going to take that thing on the run. I got 
the feeling he would afetr I heard he can't get it registered in Aus (bit 
stupid really, considering the whole saving the environment thing ...)

It's a bit of a shame that he has to have a truck and generator follow 
him though. It seems to result in a huge fuel usage because of that, but 
at least he's making a point about recharge stations :)

Good on ya Simon and Emilis!

Dion Baker

I'd rather the government didn't spend my tax money on electric car 
recharge stations. This is already about to be done commercially. Do a 
search for a better place or Shai Agassi.
I won't put any money into this as any reasonable analysis of electric cars 
gives you a 3 x cost per kilometer compared to petrol, let alone LPG or 
CNG. Battery life and capital cost are what kills it.

I'm more parytila to the closed boron cycle either by burning it in air or 
using it to disassociate water to generate hydrogen. I.C. engines run fine 
on hydrogen.

If you put recharge stations on the Darwin Adelaide road you'd need to be 
at each one for hours as current day batteries don't recharge instantly. 
Also these places are off grid. How are you going to generate the 
electricity? Diesel generators out back? Windmills? Solar cells at vast 
expense and consumption of water to keep them clean? Mini nukes?(that one 
is actually a starter)

It really is a pity you can't run a high tech civilization on pixie dust, 
unicorn farts and good intentions.


Mike


Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 
1978
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider pilots applying their skills to another activity

[Todd Sandercock]

What about not using a car. People should just live a reasonable distance from 
their work and/or play then just ride or walk there. Easy fixed

Todd

On 29/10/2009, at 7:12 AM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote:

At 06:58 PM 28/10/2009, Todd Sandercock wrote:
Is cost what its all about mike???

No, I always seek to spend far more money than necessary to get a particular 
job done. Don't you? :-)

Seriously, when talking about personal transportation, cars are a very good 
solution. Why would you want to make the cost per kilometer 3 times as 
expensive? Anybody doubting this should look up the Tesla website. There's 
enough information to work this out. I've done the numbers for other battery 
systems and cars also and keep coming up with similar numbers.

If we are talking about hobbies then cost isn't an issue but we should be quite 
clear we are talking about a hobby. Gliding is a good example. We've had 90 
years of intensive development of high performance gliders and they are still 
just toys, useless for anything else but amusement.

The economic resources that make it possible for us go gliding come from 
generation of economic surpluses which largely come about by improved 
technology driving better and cheaper ways of doing things. Spending serious 
amounts of societal resources on useless wind turbines and solar power systems 
which probably won't repay their energy investments over their lifetimes or 
taxing use of hydrocarbon fuels because of some very tenuous scientific 
conjecture will make us all poorer. (I call them hydrocarbon fuels because 
there is a good chance that at least some of them aren't fossil but of 
primordial origin - look up Thomas Gold.)

Simon Hackett is using his Tesla as advertising and promotion for Internode 
while indulging in his electric car hobby. Let's be quite clear about this. The 
current economy run is anything but in its consumption of petrol and diesel 
let alone the approximately 2 tonnes of kerosene that was used to airfreight 
the thing from California.(enough hydrocarbon fuel to run the car for between 
40 and 50 thousand kilometers if it was a petrol powered Lotus Elise which the 
Tesla is an overweight version of.)

Electric cars are one of those very attractive things. I find the idea very 
attractive also. I've got a folder under my Firefox bookmarks  engineering - EV.

Mike

Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784

email:   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
website: www.borgeltinstruments.com 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: 1000km in QLD

[Todd Sandercock]

sorry that may be younger persons terminology
^5 as in high five.

982km in an ls1 deserves a high 5 for sure

Todd




From: tom claffey to...@yahoo.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Mon, 19 October, 2009 1:19:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: 1000km in QLD


Huh??

--- On Sun, 18/10/09, Todd Sandercock todd_soar...@yahoo.com.au wrote:


From: Todd Sandercock todd_soar...@yahoo.com.au
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: 1000km in QLD
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Received: Sunday, 18 October, 2009, 11:59 PM


Alan Barnes ^5

--- On Sun, 18/10/09, tom claffey
 to...@yahoo.com wrote:


From: tom claffey to...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: 1000km in QLD
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Received: Sunday, 18 October, 2009, 11:14 PM


Yep, he turned Edgeroi down near Narrabri.
Both excellent flights though!
Plus David was beaten on OLC by Alan Barnes doing 982 in an LS1!
Could be a long summer! :]
Tom

--- On Sun, 18/10/09, Ian Mc Phee
 mrsoar...@gmail.com  wrote:


From: Ian Mc Phee mrsoar...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: 1000km in QLD
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Received: Sunday, 18 October, 2009, 8:25 PM


I thought Col Norman did same about 25 years ago in Mosquito but he may have 
had a TP in NSW.

They did not call him Killer Norman for nothing!! and think there was $1000 
prize for same.

Macca
 


2009/10/18 Adam Woolley aussiejuniort...@hotmail.com





Bugger, the race is over..!
WPP
 
 
Hi All
 
Have just received a report from Kingaroy that David Jansen has just 
completed a 1,000 kilometre triangle and is the first in Queensland to have 
done so.
 
He went Kingaroy/Dululu/Muckadilla/Kingaroy!
 
Congratulations David!

Check out The Great Australian Pay Check Take a peek at other people's pay and 
perks
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Keepit Results !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Todd Sandercock]

The server might have had a bogpond moment and crapped out. it was working 
before

- Original Message 
From: Mal Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Thursday, 15 November, 2007 8:49:17 PM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Keepit Results !

Can anyone else get Nick G's page to load

http://www.joeyglide.com/ContestLIVE/NSWStateComps/tabid/241/Default.aspx

On Bogpond used firefox and IE

traceroute to www.joeyglide.com (75.126.45.162), 30 hops max, 40 byte 
packets
 1  vlan250.lon-service6.Melbourne.telstra.net (203.50.2.177)  0.263 ms
 
0.262 ms  0.842 ms
 2  * TenGigE0-12-0-2.win-core1.Melbourne.telstra.net (203.50.79.129)
  1.113 
ms  1.045 ms
 3  Bundle-Pos1.ken-core4.Sydney.telstra.net (203.50.6.21)  13.671 ms
  13.69 
ms  13.765 ms
 4  Port-Channel1.pad-gw2.Sydney.telstra.net (203.50.6.29)  13.059 ms 
13.097 ms  13.179 ms
 5  10GigabitEthernet1-0.sydp-core02.Sydney.reach.com (203.50.13.46)
  13.204 
ms  13.239 ms  13.179 ms
 6  i-13-0.wil-core02.net.reach.com (202.84.141.109)  172.492 ms
  172.632 ms 
172.592 ms
 7  i-6-2.wil03.net.reach.com (202.84.251.218)  166.499 ms  166.35 ms 
166.461 ms
 8  ge-6-21.car3.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (4.68.111.137)  166.49 ms
  166.55 ms 
166.699 ms
 9  ae-31-53.ebr1.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (4.68.102.94)  166.852 ms
  178.679 
ms  166.906 ms
10  ae-1-100.ebr2.LosAngeles1.Level3.net (4.69.132.6)  173 ms  179.281
 ms 
166.906 ms
11  ae-3.ebr3.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.69.132.78)  210.581 ms  199.764 ms 
199.825 ms
12  * ae-68.ebr1.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.69.135.1)  219.272 ms  215.14 ms
13  ae-2-52.edge3.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.68.122.50)  199.911 ms 
ae-1-55.edge3.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.68.122.146)  205.759 ms 
ae-2-56.edge3.Dallas1.Level3.net (4.68.122.178)  199.872 ms
14  te7-2.cer01.dal01.dallas-border.com (4.71.198.18)  209.023 ms
  207.211 
ms  207.681 ms
15  po51.fcr01.dal01.dallas-datacenter.com (66.228.118.150)  201.084 ms
 
226.054 ms  201.997 ms
16  securedc.com (75.126.45.162)  209.562 ms  207.5 ms  207.397 ms 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Website

[Todd Sandercock]

Nope. they aren't real active with that kind of stuff here. scoring is real 
fast though. it just doesn't get out to the real world.

- Original Message 
From: Nick Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Monday, 15 October, 2007 3:16:21 PM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Website

Are we likely to get any news  views (and up to date results) from the Club 
Class Nats?







  Sick of deleting your inbox? Yahoo!7 Mail has free unlimited storage.
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Website

[Todd Sandercock]

Well.

Na i'm not much good with the stories but i can say that our engine has got a 
bit of a work out. Not so much over the last couple of days but a few days ago 
we managed to use it 3 times in flight plus another time for the takeoff. 
Everyone go out and buy a DG motor glider. The engines are fantastic.

Todd


- Original Message 
From: simon holding [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Tuesday, 16 October, 2007 8:19:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Website




 


 
 
 
 
 


!--
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/* Style Definitions */
 p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Times 
New Roman;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{font-family:Arial;color:navy;}
 _filtered {margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;}
div.Section1
{}
--






So Todd, how about some stories??
 

Simon
 

  
 

-Original Message-

From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Sandercock

Sent: Monday, 15 October 2007 3:35
PM

To: Discussion of issues relating
to Soaring in Australia.

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Club
Class Website


  
 





Nope. they aren't real active with that kind of stuff
here. scoring is real fast though. it just doesn't get out to the real world.
 



- Original Message


From: Nick Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net

Sent: Monday, 15 October, 2007 3:16:21 PM

Subject: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Website



Are we likely to get any news  views (and up to date results) from the Club
Class Nats?
 




  
 







  
 








Sick of deleting your
inbox? Yahoo!7 Mail has free unlimited storage. Get it now. 
 










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Re: [Aus-soaring] Family Tow Car

[Todd Sandercock]

Hey all

Last year i towed an LS3 up to kingaroy from gawler behind what was then the 
current model holden. The trailer is extremely heavy. i can't lift it with out 
the jockey wheel. The commodore towed the trailer extremely well. Alot of the 
time i forgot the trailer was on the back. Stopping power was huge even though 
the trailers brakes don't work

Thats my experience
Todd

- Original Message 
From: swk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Sunday, 9 September, 2007 11:16:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Family Tow Car

Further to what Mike said.
The newer Holdens are not so good in the rear suspension area (from personal 
experience).

I have a 1993 Magna wagon since new which I have used extensively. It seems 
to be a perfectly acceptable car for towing. Even though it only has the 
2.6l 4 cyl it happily tows single seaters, and with care towed the PAGC Twin 
Astir.
_However_ dont buy a Magna, they are junk cars. This one is the most 
unreliable piece of rubbish I have ever owned and I won't consider buying a 
Mitsubishi ever again!

In 2004 I bought a Holden Wagon with the V6 3.8l engine. It was considerably 
more powerful than the Magna and I thought it would make a better tow car, 
but the first time I took my Boomerang out on the highway it scared the 
willies out of me. Almost uncontrollable once past about 90kph. Admittedly, 
the Boomerang trailer is a tad heavy for a single seater, but there was 
never any problem towing it with the Magna.
Other Holden owners noted a similar behaviour with their cars on the larger 
ASC club trailers too.
The use of torsion bars helped and I was able to get the Holden up to 110ish 
speeds, but really not too much more. Which is legal but a bit marginal when 
overtaking. (I don't have the Holden anymore).

The Magna was an Ok towing car, but a heap of junk otherwise. The Commodore 
was a good car (the little I drove it) but a poor glider towing vehicle. 
Does this help? :-)

Points to mention:
As others indicated, all else being equal, a heavier car is better to stop 
the trailer taking over.
A strong cross wind can turn a normally well behaved small towing car into a 
handful (the wind twists the trailer and compresses the trailer springs 
different amounts. The differing spring compression makes the axle go a tiny 
bit off square and the trailer swings, making the trailer twist more...). I 
remember a trip in a Toyota Corona (Corolla?) station wagon, where we 
couldn't get above 80 kph. Next week on the same road with the same car and 
same trailer, no problems getting to the speed limit at all.


I have been thinking about a new tow vehicle and I am coming to the 
conclusion that one of the Subaru wagons would be better than most, but I 
haven't towed with one, so can't say for sure.

Regards
SWK


- Original Message - 
From: Mike Borgelt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Family Tow Car


At 10:31 AM 8/09/2007, you wrote:
Hi,

We are new to Oz and are about to purchase a
family car - which will need a tow bar suitable
to tow a single seat glider trailer (glider yet to be purchased).

Any recommendations for good tow vehicles and gotchas to be aware of?

What weight does the car need to be able to tow
all up for a single seater + trailer?

What down force on the ball hitch should it be capable of taking?

We don't necessarily want to buy a massive
vehicle as it will for the most part be a family
run around. We might purchase a large 4WD at
later date to tow a caravan or other larger trailers.

I have read with interest the long trailer
debate so information from there does not need to be reprised.

Thanks for any help,

Regards Richard
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New, used? Price range?

Depends on what glider trailer too. Most Aussie
built are way overbuilt and far too heavy.

Commodore/Falcon have plenty of power but soft
rear suspension and tow ball is a long way aft of
the rear wheels. My 93 Commodore didn't tow as well as my 81 Mazda 626 RWD.
Current 2000 Honda Accord is great with stiff and well located rear end.

Check out the max permissable towing weight of
the VW Golf. Glider pilots in VW design I think.
Golf TDI seems like a great car.

Mike
Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
   Int'l + 61 429 355784
email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Aus-soaring] slow news day? Don't read this if you are enjoying the paper plane game...

[Todd Sandercock]

Yeeeha
114.089m

- Original Message 
From: Andrew Rigby [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Friday, 13 July, 2007 10:33:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] slow news day? Don't read this if you are enjoying 
the paper plane game...

The trick with the game is to make the flash player 'think' that your mouse
has moved the launch distance in a time approaching zero.
You'll notice that when you move off the flash section of a browser window
the plane stays in the location in which the mouse was last seen..

So - position the plane near the top left of the flash window, continue to
move your mouse to the left and off the browser window, move the mouse
around to the right of screen (without contacting the flash window) and let
the flash player 'see' it again somewhere near the bottom right.
A few goes gave me a best of 113m but I think a bit of playing with the left
and right positions could yield better results.

Andrew.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
Sent: Friday, 13 July 2007 9:50 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] slow news day?

All I can seem to get is 93.804, I am now trying to work out how I can
attach turblators, gap seals etc. Ive managed to do 4 consecutive loops, I
guess thats something
JR
- Original Message - 
From: McLean Richard [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] slow news day?


 Fun? As much fun as writing an Excel based wing
 loading calculator?  =(

 I've hit the wall at 95.21 metres ... damn you,
 ceiling fan!

 --- JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Speaking of more fun,who has thrown the best
  distance with the paper plane?
  JR
- Original Message - 
From: Simon Hackett
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in
  Australia.
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] slow news day?
 
 
This news article today is much more fun - I love
  it.
 
 
 
 
 http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,22054739-1702,00.html
 
 
Simon
 
 
On 11/07/2007, at 7:22 PM, D S Baker wrote:
 
 
  Perhaps the editor doesn't know anyone that
  flies, or was just very low on interesting things.
 
 
  On 11/07/07, Nick Gilbert  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
Somehow this made the front of news.com.au
  today :
 
 
 
 http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22056483-2,00.html
 
 
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  configure the core router in chicago
  Dro0 is googling subnetting
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Block speeds and wing loadings

[Todd Sandercock]

Thanks wombat

i would have expected more people on this list to know about soaring but i 
assumed wrong.

Todd



- Original Message 
From: Mike Cleaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Wednesday, 11 July, 2007 12:29:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Block speeds and wing loadings

At 16:50 10/07/2007, Todd wrote:

As for the weight to fly stuff. just taking a stab in the dark here 
but i would presume that the polar moves directly proportional to 
weight of your glider. so if you increase the weight by 10% then the 
sink rate will be 10% higher at a 10% faster speed than your polar 
says. so taking that into account you should be able to do a little 
maths that takes into account your new sinkrate and works out the 
new speeds to fly. then optimise that again and you should have your 
optimum weight. anyway thats just a guess. debate that if you want.

Actually that is not the case. The sink rate and speed for each point 
on the polar curve moves down and to the right in proportion to the 
square root of the increase in wing loading. This means that the 
glide angle at each point on the 'stretched' polar stays the same. 
You would need to increase the wing loading - i.e. the total mass - 
by 21% in order to increase speeds by 10%.

If a glider had a glide angle of 40:1 at 100 km/h  (a sink rate of 
2.5 km/h) at a weight of 600 kg, then increasing the weight to 705 kg 
would move that 40:1 glide angle point to 110 kg, at which point the 
sink rate would be 2.75 km/h.

The same glider is likely to have a sink rate of 8 km/h at 200 km/h 
(i.e. a 25:1 glide angle) at its original 600 kg all up weight. At 
705 kg it would achieve 25:1 at 220 km/h, when its sink rate would be 8.8 km/h.

The polar curve might indicate 100 km/h as the best speed to fly to 
reach the next thermal if that thermal produces a climb of 2 kt at 
the 600 kg weight.  However, at 705 kg that same next thermal will 
only yield a climb of 1.7 kt due to the larger circling radius 
combined with the increased sink rate.  That is not enough to give a 
faster X/C speed than at 600 kg, even though the inter-thermal speed 
is now 110 km/h.

However, if the next thermal is going to give 7 kt climb at 600 kg, 
it will give say 6.7 kt at 705 kg - and at that smaller proportional 
loss of climb, the gain of flying to the thermal at 220 km/h 
outweighs the loss of the lower climb rate.

What is more, flying faster at 220 km/h while keeping the weight at 
600 kg will give you a greater sink rate of say 9.5 km/h (a glide 
angle of around 23:1 instead of 25:1) so you will lose out by having 
the glider at a lighter wing loading.

Apologies for the mixed and unusual units, but it makes the 
arithmetic simpler! The effect is what happens in real life - you can 
use a real polar and stretch it to account for varying wing loading, 
but there is still a bit of SCWAG **  in the achieved climb rates 
unless you also calculate the circling polars using appropriate 
models of the lift distribution across the thermal - which is what 
the different handicapping models do.


Wombat


(**) SCWAG = Scientifically Calculated Wild - Arsed Guess 


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Stormy landing

[Todd Sandercock]

Na not much. everyone has gone so there isn't much fun going on
You been up to much?

Todd

- Original Message 
From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Sunday, 1 July, 2007 1:42:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stormy landing



 
DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}



G'Day Todd,

anything exciting happening in Gawler 
?

JR


  - Original Message - 

  From: 
  Todd Sandercock 

  To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net 
  

  Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 10:11 
  PM

  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stormy 
  landing

  


  
  Everyone 
  gets fined!! even if your a junior


  - 
  Original Message 
From: Mark Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 
  Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: 
  Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: 
  Saturday, 30 June, 2007 9:51:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stormy 
  landing


  Gary wrote:
 Fines FROM the juniors to SUPPORT the 
  juniors

Why not?  Pay it forward, 
  man!

   - 
  mark


I 
  tried an internal 
  modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  but 
  it hurt when I 
  walked.  Mark 
  Newton
- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82356937 
  -
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Stormy landing

[Todd Sandercock]

Everyone gets fined!! even if your a junior

- Original Message 
From: Mark Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Saturday, 30 June, 2007 9:51:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stormy landing

Gary wrote:
 Fines FROM the juniors to SUPPORT the juniors

Why not?  Pay it forward, man!

   - mark


I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82356937 -
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Re: [Aus-soaring] ASW-15 wing transport form SA.

[Todd Sandercock]

Hey Ben

If there is no one else going that way i can go for a road trip any time you 
want.
Also if the wings are at gawler i presume they already sitting in a trailer

Seeya
Todd

- Original Message 
From: Ben Loxton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Monday, 18 June, 2007 1:39:09 PM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] ASW-15 wing transport form SA.

Hi Everyone,

There is a set of wings for an ASW15 that is an ongoing project for  
the Juniors that are currently in SA (Gawler i think) and need  
transporting to Bacchus Marsh. Unfortunately they don't have a  
trailer, however we should be able to sort something out. I have  
possible access to an open trailer that i can borrow (Patch? :-D  )  
which is at Bacchus.

Is there anyone making the trip one or both ways who may be able  and  
willing to help out?

Many Thanks,

Ben

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Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: [Augc-people] Re: new zealand

[Todd Sandercock]

Hey all,
Things are going great here. we have had 2 good wave days that have been a heap 
of fun.

Day 1:
flying with gavin we initially set off following james but after a while gavin 
thought it would be good to teach me about ridge flying so we airbraked down to 
about 1000ft above the valley floor. 2 passes later we were back at the top 
again as the wind was blowing straight up the ridge and the sun was also 
straight on it.

from there we pushed upwind jumping a couple ridges and contacted the rotor. 
gavin tought me a couple tricks about rotor flying and before long we were 
straight into strong wave marked by a long line of rotor cloud. we then 
proceeded up to mt cook and then back down all the way to the dingle were we 
airbraked down onto the ridge again and got home from there on the many ridges 
inbetween.

Day 2:
day 2 i flew with lemmy. he did not seem to have much input into my flying so i 
ended up doing whatever i wanted. initially we went down sout on some wave at 
about 15000ft on a 500 km task but the blue wave deteriorated so i turned 
around and headed for hame again along the same wave. after a while the ridge 
ran out so the wave did to so it was time to find a new wave. i headed for the 
back of magic mountain and found some good rotor out in the blue and it was all 
good from there. some how i managed to make it from there to some more wave 
just to the west of the ben ohau range and then all the way up to mt cook. then 
i went home the long way jumping upwind onto other waves to the west.

all of that was about 400km or so landing at 7:15. a good day really

see ya
Todd

Reg Moore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

These guys seem to like the land of the One Day Cricket greats


5th march.

wit hthe promising weather outlook Gavin set us a 500km down south, then
back
to mount cook, then home to omarama. We took a tow and released quite low in
a
good thermal rising up mt terrible. at 6500 we ventured out and after a bit
of
stooging around with 2 other duo discus' and contacted quite strong wave.

After bumming around at 15,000 waiting for other gliders to catch up we lost
contact with the wave, and headed out in search of this newfound (well to me
anyway) form of lift.

and we kept searching,

and we kept searching,

and then we looked behind us,

and then we said bugger, well i did, gavin is what id call optomistic.

I scampered back to the ridge (which was now above us) only to find it wasnt
really working, which was good as one of my objectives was to practice on
the
ridges.

The rest of the flight we spent cruising around ridges and mountains, mostly
at
or below ridge top height. Ive got to admit i found myself fairly nervous as
we
glid down unlandable valleys (unless you like rocky creek beds or lakes) to
ridges that we hoped wernt being supressed by wave.

Todd is still up, they were having a ball at 15000 belting down south last
time
i heard.

in all, damn good fun. im getting this undeniable feeling that we all may be
living on the wrong side of the tasman, mountains to fly on in summer and
ski
on in winter. it s just a feeling, but yet to be confirmed.

james.
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RE: [Aus-soaring] Multiple membership

[Todd Sandercock]

You could also have an emailing with a bit of gliding club humor
  

David Lawley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hi all,

Training wine, that's an interesting concept, any particular brand?

My son the young aviator now has expensive tastes in Red wine, thanks to my
fellow club members(CV I'm looking at you(-: ),not that he drinks very
often, but he's only had really good reds!

I'm starting to think that in some gliding clubs there are more hours of Red
wine drinking than there are hours of flying! Some time ago I thought
perhaps we should change the name to red wine drinking and a bit of gliding
club- that could help the deteriorating membership! (-: 

Regards

Dave L

PS I am at stuck work today and outside is the nicest 10,000ft+ cu filled
sky dammit!Gr!


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of simon
holding
Sent: Friday, 16 February 2007 7:03 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Multiple membership

Coach Tabart is talking about arriving at training week a bit early in
order to identify a training wine. He wants to leave nothing to chance
in our preparation.
Simon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John
Switala
Sent: Friday, 16 February 2007 5:55 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Multiple membership

Simon

Application forms to the Gliding Club of Victoria are in the mail
Local
reds will be stocked for your, erh, amusement!

Regards
John



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of simon
holding
Sent: Friday, 16 February 2007 6:56 PM
To: Aus Soaring
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Multiple membership

Is there any impediment to being a member simultaneously of two
different gliding clubs?

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Reichmann

[Todd Sandercock]

Thank youThat makes more sense now. its just that i use a technique where as you hit the strong lift you tighten up for about 3/4 of a circle and then go back to normal and that seems to work quite well.ToddJohn Wharington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Todd,Reichmann's technique as described in his book does indeed work.  Ithink you may be misunderstanding it slightly because of what might be atranslation error or oversimplified use of language.To be more formal (and correct), his technique is:- 1) While the climb is improving, flatten the circle- 2) While the climb is deteriorating, steepen the circleThe effect of 1 is to tend to head toward the core, and the effect of 2is to turn away from sink.  Overall this results in the center of thespiral to gradually drift
 towards the core.So, you see the distinction is not "flatten out when at the strongestlift" but rather "flatten out as the lift is increasing" etc.In my PhD thesis I used this technique in an auto-thermalling controlsystem for an unmanned aircraft and it works quite well.Hope this clarifies things.JohnnyOn Mon, 2006-09-18 at 22:56 +1000, Todd Sandercock wrote: hi all  I was just reading the bible (Reichmann's "cross country soaring") and came accross the thermaling technique described by reichmann. the technique to me seams wrong. i'm guessing if it is, then it has already been discused on this list but here it is anyway: - as climb improves, flatten the circle (15-20 degrees) - as climb deteriorates, steepen the circle (50 degrees) - if climb remains constant, keep bank constant (25-30 degrees)  in the book it describes keeping the
 same bank angle for half a circle. so i have attached a couple of my drawings of the situation. the first is of the method above. the second picture is the opposite (as climb improves, steepen the circle. as climb deteriorates, flatten the circle).  these drawings are my interpritations of the method so feel free to tell me what im doing wrong.  Todd__ On Yahoo!7 Fuel Price Watch - Find and map the cheapest petrol prices in Australia   ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___Aus-soaring mailing
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Why we fly

[Todd Sandercock]

and the fame[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I do it for the chicks  prize money.Regards,Nick GilbertLotus Notes Administrator - Hardy Wines___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring 
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RE: [Aus-soaring] Why we fly

[Todd Sandercock]

seeing 270km/h ground speed on the GPS is not bad either."Texler, Michael" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I love the view___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] GPS errors!

[Todd Sandercock]

The Farmers have also had a bit of problem with their GPS guided, auto-steering tractors for the same reason.ToddDav [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi all,
 FYIDon’t know too much about it but I heard a radio  report that 2 GPS satellites are faulty at the moment and accuracy in Australia is  somewhat reduced.A friend of mine who came over last night told me he has had  trouble with his car GPS
 in the last few days, so much so it is unusable for  street navigation in Adelaide.RegardsDave L___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details,
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[Aus-soaring] Outlandings

[Todd Sandercock]

Any know what the record is for the most outlandings in one day at a comp? they had 77 last night at the wgc.Todd  

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Re: RE: [Aus-soaring] WC team

[Todd Sandercock]

Thanks CalebToddCaleb White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Dav,I  do not think it appropriate that you extend your views regarding the  consumption of alcohol on to others. Further, I did not see the  relevance to present discussion. As (young) adults it is our choice.  Flying was certainly only part of the reason that many of us attended  the competition. And no, let’s not bother with the debate ‘that you  can fun without alcohol’. Caleb(Views expressed here at not those held by the Kookaburra Precision Soaring Team… OK, they probably are).'I also firmly believe that junior events should be alcohol free during theevent after experiencing the last Joey glide. Top sportsmen these daysvirtually abstain from alcohol during their seasons, it was noticeable thetop
 finishers were rarely seen drinking during the comp at the last JoeyGlide'-Original Message-From: "Dav" To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:19:21 +0930Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] WC teamCome on Dave,  I do not think Adam was serious; just a bit of stirring bythe younger generation.  I have NO problem with that. :-)PeterSAged 55yrs but wears an Arab Hat instead of being an OFITTH.I have no problem with stirring either Peter, in fact I have been known todo more than a little myself occasionally.(IRONY thick right here, just incase you don't get it)A couple of other thoughts -Its hard to find a genuine terry towelling hat, they all seem to be made ofcotton these days!-How much is a left nut worth? More or less than a right?
 (-:We could have a collection and see how serious Adam *really is*.(-:Now that (pickled?) would make an interesting and unique trophy for the besteffort to attend Joey glide!(-:Thanks to those who replied re my question about W/C pilot ages, but do youknow the oldest winner?I thought Johns posting was spot on! Young people are absolutely critical tothe future of gliding, and the aging demographic in glidingwill make things increasingly difficult.Another issue in this case is glider repair personnel they won't lastforever either you know, how many are in training right now? I guess we are currently starting to experience the retirement of the bulkof the baby boomer generation which has more leisure time as well, but Isuspect 20-30 years down the track will be the really critical time whentoday's 50-60 year olds reach 80 and retire from actively flying. The current juniors will reach
 40-50 around that time. In SA I know ofabout 10 under 20 yo active x/c rated pilots, and the same number between 20and 25 A total of 20. Each club needs 5 committee members and a CFI-in SAalone we would have all chiefs and no Indians!We also need to accept that a lot of these juniors may well need to take10-20 years off of flying to raise a family and establish a career.Regaining them after this should be an important part of our strategy.Adam don't worry about me see first paragraph! Tom, you misunderstand my comment, what I meant was I was happy the currentimage reflected the actual situation in gliding right now, not that I washappy with the current situation! Ironic you say you don't want to join thediscussion then do so anyway!I do feel that the current emphasis on competition for juniors as a way ofincreasing interest ignores the fact that 90% of pilots do not fly comps, itis a mistake to make a
 comp the main game for developing juniors,particularly under 18s, camps and fun regatta's would be a better way Ithink. I also firmly believe that junior events should be alcohol free during theevent after experiencing the last Joey glide. Top sportsmen these daysvirtually abstain from alcohol during their seasons, it was noticeable thetop finishers were rarely seen drinking during the comp at the last JoeyGlideIn my view image has virtually nothing to do with the lack of juniors,And is everything to do with the high costs. I know lots of interestedpeople who cannot afford to glide. With the current government determined tobring back virtual slavery by the new Industrial relations and welfare rulesthis will get much worse.  Our only saviour in this respect is winchlaunching, offering as it does huge savings particularly during training.And to think all this came from stirring Adam back after his
 picture post!Regards all and come on summer!!!Dave LawleyP.S. a (-: indicates I am not serious!!___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Trailer for ASH 26E

[Todd Sandercock]

I think bernard was suggesting each wing is in 1 section unlike most 18 metre gliders that have a split so that they can be configered as 15 metre. so not like the kookaburratoddCaleb White [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Wow - The Kookaburra has a single piece wing as well! Suggest you try mounting it flat above the fuselage, although you will need to be careful of trees and when entering/exiting petrol stations!CalebKPST-Original Message-From: "Future Aviation Pty. Ltd." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:05:14 +1030Subject: [Aus-soaring] Trailer for ASH 26EGreetingsI'm sending this e-mail on behalf of a customer who has just placed anorder for an ASH 26E. He has requested tha!
 t I try
 to find him a second hand fully enclosed trailer.Please note that the trailer needs to be about 1.50 meter longer than a standard glider trailer to accommodate the single piece wing.Please direct any genuine offers to:Bernard EckeyFUTURE AVIATION PTY. LTD.10 Antigua GroveWest Lakes 5021Adelaide / South AustraliaPh/Fax +61 8 8449 2871mobile 0412 981204[EMAIL PROTECTED]___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
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Re: [Aus-soaring] ideas please!

[Todd Sandercock]

Hey AllThe GFA web page at the moment seems very practical for the already interested members. BUT , if i was surfing the net looking for somthing to do in my spare time i wouldn't be too interested in australian gliding. Maybe we need some kick ass web site that has heaps of pics and videos and cool content for the general public, Members could then log into the not so exciting paperwork and official side of the site to find all the stuff that they need.just my opinionSeeya  ToddDavid Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hi FolksJust looking for any ideas and suggestions for how we can improve the functionality of the GFA website.For example, on-line membership renewal and payment by credit card.We would need to identify that we are providing an improved service to members which they would be prepared to pay for if there is a cost involved, or demonstrate that some savings can be made to also benefit members.Thinking caps on!cheersDavid Conway___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

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Re: [Aus-soaring] daylight display screens

[Todd Sandercock]

Hey AllThe flarm tracking was a semi-success. the software worked great but  due to the low power of the FLARM, the range was only about 3 or 4 km.  Also most people didn't have there FLARM installed properly so that  didn't help the range either.  ToddJohn Wharington [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hi all,As I understand it, it was Tod Sandercock and Rob Moore who set up theXCSoar PC display for FLARM at the Gawler nationals.  I modified XCSoarto display FLARM objects rather hastily, and produced a Windows PC buildfor them.If you want a big display in the pie-cart, you'd be best to use a PCrather than a pocket PC; and keep the display indoors, with the FLARMantenna and GPS antenna outdoors.  Another issue you will need to resolve of cours!
 e is
 supplying power tothe PC.Maybe a cheap option is to buy (or have donated) a second-hand laptop.XCSoar runs pretty efficiently so you don't need anything powerful.I think we will need to set up some webpages onhttp://xcsoar.sourceforge.net on how to set things up.While we are on the subject, I would like feedback from those interestedin this application on XCSoar as to what display features would bedesired.  Currently there is a red circle target displayed for eachFLARM aircraft.  I am thinking of implementing the following additionalfeatures: -- Short snail trail behind each FLARM aircraft. -- Display of aircraft rego gleaned from a lookup from the FLARMpseudo-static id or ICAO id -- Display of altitude/speed -- Maybe have a way of allowing users to click on a FLARM aircraft withthe mouse and then the display moves with that aircraft as if you areriding along with that aircraft.Best
 regards,JohnnyOn Tue, 2006-01-31 at 12:26 +1100, Scott Penrose wrote:  On 31/01/2006, at 12:20, Brett Kettle wrote:   This list recently reported the successes of John Wharington,  Todd ?, etc establishing an OZFLARM-based clubhouse display for  finishing gliders at Benalla.  I’m looking to create something  similar for the DDSC ‘pie-cart’ (we now have 100% of the club fleet  and all bar a couple of stragglers in the private fleet  OZFLARM-equipped).  Cathy Conway’s give me some useful antenna  advice and I’m trying to find a good display option. Does anyone have any recommendations on a computer screen that will  still be clearly visible with bright sky behind the observer?  LCD?  TFT? CRT? or another TLA? LCD is fine, but you need a special one. Thes!
 e are
 unfortunately very expensive as they are generally designed for industrial control applications.   XCSoar - which can display the gliders now automatically from FLARM - will now run on Windows as well as Pocket PC - that should give you some more choice.   Well done on getting your club FLARMed.   Scott   ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
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