Re: [Aus-soaring] Tail dolly
There's a great story (from memory) from a book on pioneer aviation… The pilot and passenger took off on a test flight of a prototype aircraft. The passenger was an apprentice who had very recently joined the company. The aircraft was an open twin cockpit biplane with two pusher props. The engines were mounted high between the upper and lower wings so that the arcs of the spinning propellors almost meshed over the fuselage. After climbing out, the pilot realised that he did not have enough elevator authority to control the aircraft and of course they did not have parachutes. He yelled to the passenger to climb out of his seat and join him in the other cockpit to balance the plane. The apprentice had to crawl along the top of the fuselage which was probably nice and flat, but he had to crawl below and between the arcs of the props, no doubt keeping his head well down. And after that they landed fine… and some years later, the apprentice went on to become the chairman of BOAC and no doubt had a healthy respect for weight and balance. D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Tail dolly
On of the things I take from this is not to simply release if someone on the ground yells abort, abort, abort or get-off, get-off, get-off!! This was already in my mind after Clem Bowman's accident about 12 years ago. [if he had not heeded that call he may have been able to use the chute from a stable tow to height!] Whatever the C of G or state of the glider they can probably be fixed with altitude or speed, neither of which you have if you get off low. While still on the ground then of course get off ASAP. Something to think about! Tom From: DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Tuesday, 3 July 2012 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Tail dolly None of which tells us about the actual weight and balance state of the aircraft at the time. Still sounds like a stall /spin. The engine on a DG-400 weighs about 60 kgs and sits entirely behind the CofG of the glider. If you remove it completely, to compensate, you fit just a 1 kg weight just in front of the tail wheel. What does the average tail dolly weigh? 5-7 kgs? It's only a guess but that would affect the weight and balance wouldn't it? Another issue is centre of pressure movement with varying angle of attack. (Are we allowed to talk about centre of pressure movement these days?) Some foils are very much more sensitive to angle of attack and I suppose if these factors contributed to a stall and resulting spin, then you are of course correct… it still sounds like a stall/spin. Caused by the tail dolly weight out on the end of a long lever. D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Tail Dolly
Last sentence. A clue?http://www.kfdm.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tx/32466fe1-www.kfdm.com.shtml___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Tail Dolly
At 07:47 AM 4/07/2012, you wrote: Last sentence. A clue? http://www.kfdm.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tx/32466fe1-www.kfdm.com.shtmlhttp://www.kfdm.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tx/32466fe1-www.kfdm.com.shtml ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No. It could just have easily been the kid in the front seat grabbing the stick. Or his mother. Maybe a result of panic from the radio warning. I'm cool with consenting adults only, flying in gliders. i.e. you must be 18 or older. Perhaps somebody here operates an IS28? If so please give us the weight and balance numbers and cockpit placards and we can see what 5 to 7 Kg of tail dolly left on can do. There have been numerous instances of gliders flying quite successfully with the dolly attached. It is also a fact that gliders are tested with the C of G 20mm behind the placarded aft limit including spin recoveries. I agree with Tom. Radio warnings can hurt as much as they help. Haven't we had a couple of nasty damage accidents which would have only been normal belly landings if not for the last moment attempts to get the gear down? This season has been a terrible one so far in North Amercia for fatalities. One 11000 hour pilot and aircraft mechanic on r.a.s. recently said he maybe should maybe reconsider his involvement in the activity. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Tail Dolly
Thanks Derek, I'll have a look later. Mike At 11:32 AM 4/07/2012, you wrote: We used to operate IS28's at Camden, and I have 300 hours flying them(mostly 20 minute flights...) They spin very nicely and predictably but are sensitive to c of g. I flew one once with the front seat passenger (weighed) just over the placard limit. At about 100 feet we hit a thermal: the nose rose and continued to do so despite application of full forward stick. I thought my number was up and was reaching for the release when the glider suddenly responded and a normal airotow resumed. Very scary. I've attached the wb for an American IS28 fyi From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 4 July 2012 9:07 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Tail Dolly At 07:47 AM 4/07/2012, you wrote: Last sentence. A clue? http://www.kfdm.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tx/32466fe1-www.kfdm.com.shtmlhttp://www.kfdm.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tx/32466fe1-www.kfdm.com.shtml ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No. It could just have easily been the kid in the front seat grabbing the stick. Or his mother. Maybe a result of panic from the radio warning. I'm cool with consenting adults only, flying in gliders. i.e. you must be 18 or older. Perhaps somebody here operates an IS28? If so please give us the weight and balance numbers and cockpit placards and we can see what 5 to 7 Kg of tail dolly left on can do. There have been numerous instances of gliders flying quite successfully with the dolly attached. It is also a fact that gliders are tested with the C of G 20mm behind the placarded aft limit including spin recoveries. I agree with Tom. Radio warnings can hurt as much as they help. Haven't we had a couple of nasty damage accidents which would have only been normal belly landings if not for the last moment attempts to get the gear down? This season has been a terrible one so far in North Amercia for fatalities. One 11000 hour pilot and aircraft mechanic on r.a.s. recently said he maybe should maybe reconsider his involvement in the activity. Mike No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.comwww.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/5103 - Release Date: 06/30/12 18:34:00 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Tail Dolly
The tow-rope was released by BOTH the tow-plane and the glider? As I said earlier, if tow is stable I would want to climb to 3000' to do a handling check followed by a probably higher speed circuit or parachute down. Once the combination is airborne a radio call will invariably hinder rather than help. [except perhaps airbrakes out.] We can leave parachutes in 2 seaters to another day. ;] Tom From: Christopher McDonnell wommamuku...@bigpond.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, 4 July 2012 7:47 AM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Tail Dolly Last sentence. A clue? http://www.kfdm.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.tx/32466fe1-www.kfdm.com.shtml ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Tail dolly
Update US incident.http://www.chron.com/news/article/Dispatcher-radioed-abort-abort-abort-3679265.php___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Tail dolly
At 06:32 AM 3/07/2012, you wrote: Update US incident. http://www.chron.com/news/article/Dispatcher-radioed-abort-abort-abort-3679265.phphttp://www.chron.com/news/article/Dispatcher-radioed-abort-abort-abort-3679265.php ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring None of which tells us about the actual weight and balance state of the aircraft at the time. Still sounds like a stall /spin. Maybe the NTSB report will find whether the aircraft was out of loading limits in that configuration. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Tail dolly
None of which tells us about the actual weight and balance state of the aircraft at the time. Still sounds like a stall /spin. The engine on a DG-400 weighs about 60 kgs and sits entirely behind the CofG of the glider. If you remove it completely, to compensate, you fit just a 1 kg weight just in front of the tail wheel. What does the average tail dolly weigh? 5-7 kgs? It's only a guess but that would affect the weight and balance wouldn't it? Another issue is centre of pressure movement with varying angle of attack. (Are we allowed to talk about centre of pressure movement these days?) Some foils are very much more sensitive to angle of attack and I suppose if these factors contributed to a stall and resulting spin, then you are of course correct… it still sounds like a stall/spin. Caused by the tail dolly weight out on the end of a long lever. D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
