Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 08:44 -0500, Ted Gould wrote: On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 11:15 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: There is no need for a Preferences for the Messaging Menu, and this use case does not justify the creation of one. We have specified a preference dialog for the messaging menu. The reason is for blacklisting applications. Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't it make sense to include exactly those applications for which the user already defined an account? This may be hard to do from a technical point of view, but seems like the right behavior. For example, If someone has no e-mail account defined in Evolution, then there's no reason to include Evolution in his messaging menu. Conversely, if he already went trough the trouble of adding his account to Evolution, he presumably wants to see Evolution in the menu. This would get rid of the entire application blacklisting problem by showing the applications that are relevant to the user. Cheers, M. S. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
Scott Kitterman wrote: And also best that these apps not require configuration prior to gaining access to the preference (e.g. the Evolution example given earlier). Requiring users to set up applications in order to not be bothered by them in the menu is not a usability win. +1 and good point! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
David Barth wrote: Ted Gould wrote: On Mon, 2009-08-24 at 20:07 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: Aha! And this is the nature of the bug as I see it. I do not HAVE a message of any kind, but I still have the e-mail icon. Please switch to some other icon when there ARE NO MESSAGES, and I'll be satisfied. I agree, there should be no icon if it serves no use. In 9.10, it will be possible to launch messaging applications from the menu. It should also be possible to configure the apps NOT to be there (so, for example, if you don't use evolution then it needn't be possible to launch it from there). If there is NOTHING in the menu, then it should disappear. Yes, we spec'd it as such. Someone will have to disable the launchers that they've installed via the preference dialog, but after that it will disappear. (sorry, I hadn't updated the bug since we discussed this) The current proposal to remove the icon, but only if: 1. there are no messages waiting 2. each of the application launchers have been manually disabled by the user seems a bit difficult to discover. I think we need an option in the Preferences to hide the icon. Proposed change: - if no app launchers are registered, or all of them have been blacklisted, then the option should automatically check itself (Hide the icon when there are no new messages) - when the option is set, the UI to arrange app. launchers should be grayed out (indicating that none of the launchers will be shown anyway), whereas when it's not set, the user can then fine tune the list of displayed launchers. -1 There is no need for a Preferences for the Messaging Menu, and this use case does not justify the creation of one. The messaging menu should be removed ONLY if there are NO applications configured to present themselves in there when not running, and no applications running which can be accessed through the menu (either directly or to individual messages). Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
On Aug 25, 2009, at 8:44AM , Ted Gould wrote: On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 11:15 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: There is no need for a Preferences for the Messaging Menu, and this use case does not justify the creation of one. We have specified a preference dialog for the messaging menu. The reason is for blacklisting applications. Originally the control of whether the launcher is in the messaging menu was in the application preferences. Which is nice. But in the case where someone gets an application that they know they don't use, they have to open that application and find the setting to remove it. Which is a pain. But, it is then also compounded by the fact that most messaging applications prompt to set up an account on first run before they'd even give you the choice to set preferences. So, to remove an application you know you're not going to use you'd have to start it, configure it, and then set the preference to remove it. On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 10:24 +0100, David Barth wrote: seems a bit difficult to discover. I think we need an option in the Preferences to hide the icon. I disagree with this. I think that it is hard to discover if your goal is to hide the icon. But I think in that case people will remove the applet. I think that we can let people make a choice to remove applications application by application. We don't need an override for that. I wouldn't think of it as an override, but more as an explicit mentioning of the effect of disabling all launchers. Think of the user who has just disabled all launchers - hopefully he will notice that the hide icon checkbox was just checked, and he will realize (1) that the icon will be hidden and (2) why. He also has the option to make sure the icon isn't hidden. David --Ted ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
On Aug 25, 2009, at 8:44AM , Ted Gould wrote: On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 11:15 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: There is no need for a Preferences for the Messaging Menu, and this use case does not justify the creation of one. We have specified a preference dialog for the messaging menu. The reason is for blacklisting applications. Originally the control of whether the launcher is in the messaging menu was in the application preferences. Which is nice. But in the case where someone gets an application that they know they don't use, they have to open that application and find the setting to remove it. Which is a pain. But, it is then also compounded by the fact that most messaging applications prompt to set up an account on first run before they'd even give you the choice to set preferences. So, to remove an application you know you're not going to use you'd have to start it, configure it, and then set the preference to remove it. For a concrete example, consider Evolution. To remove the Evolution launcher from the messaging menu, you'd have to launch Evolution and set up your email account before you can access Evolution's preferences and disable the launcher. If the messaging menu lets you access a simple blacklist, you can just go there and uncheck Evolution and be done with it. David On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 10:24 +0100, David Barth wrote: seems a bit difficult to discover. I think we need an option in the Preferences to hide the icon. I disagree with this. I think that it is hard to discover if your goal is to hide the icon. But I think in that case people will remove the applet. I think that we can let people make a choice to remove applications application by application. We don't need an override for that. --Ted ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
On Aug 25, 2009, at 9:14AM , Rick Spencer wrote: On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 09:06 -0500, David Siegel wrote: For a concrete example, consider Evolution. To remove the Evolution launcher from the messaging menu, you'd have to launch Evolution and set up your email account before you can access Evolution's preferences and disable the launcher. If the messaging menu lets you access a simple blacklist, you can just go there and uncheck Evolution and be done with it. David Assuming that users prefer to act directly on objects, would it not be more direct to allow them to right click on the menu item to remove it? This would be consistent with how users remove the Evo launcher from the panel. Cheers, Rick Context menus on menus themselves is something generally avoided. I'm pretty sure it's a big no-no in the GNOME HIG as well, but I'd have to check. David ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 11:15 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: There is no need for a Preferences for the Messaging Menu, and this use case does not justify the creation of one. The messaging menu should be removed ONLY if there are NO applications configured to present themselves in there when not running, and no applications running which can be accessed through the menu (either directly or to individual messages). Sounds like an application launcher. I probably have the wrong end of stick, but what's the advantage to an event based signal becoming a static launching function? And if you can't remove the icon when there are no messages, then consider greying out or icon shifting to give visual information about internal primary state. Think network manager and how it shows state. Martin, ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 07:14:45AM -0700, Rick Spencer wrote: Assuming that users prefer to act directly on objects, would it not be more direct to allow them to right click on the menu item to remove it? This would be consistent with how users remove the Evo launcher from the panel. Cheers, Rick Wouldn't that make it impossible to reverse the action? It sounds a nice shortcut to the functionality, but you'd still need a some sort of preferences dialog showing which applications have been ignored so you can unignore them. -- Charles Cooke, Sysadmin Say it with flowers, send a triffid. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 09:20 -0500, David Siegel wrote: On Aug 25, 2009, at 9:14AM , Rick Spencer wrote: On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 09:06 -0500, David Siegel wrote: For a concrete example, consider Evolution. To remove the Evolution launcher from the messaging menu, you'd have to launch Evolution and set up your email account before you can access Evolution's preferences and disable the launcher. If the messaging menu lets you access a simple blacklist, you can just go there and uncheck Evolution and be done with it. David Assuming that users prefer to act directly on objects, would it not be more direct to allow them to right click on the menu item to remove it? This would be consistent with how users remove the Evo launcher from the panel. Cheers, Rick Context menus on menus themselves is something generally avoided. I'm pretty sure it's a big no-no in the GNOME HIG as well, but I'd have to check. David True, but personally, I'd rather make the system work the way users want and expect it to, even if it requires deviating from the HIG. Cheers, Rick ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
On Aug 25, 2009, at 9:29AM , Rick Spencer wrote: On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 09:20 -0500, David Siegel wrote: On Aug 25, 2009, at 9:14AM , Rick Spencer wrote: On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 09:06 -0500, David Siegel wrote: For a concrete example, consider Evolution. To remove the Evolution launcher from the messaging menu, you'd have to launch Evolution and set up your email account before you can access Evolution's preferences and disable the launcher. If the messaging menu lets you access a simple blacklist, you can just go there and uncheck Evolution and be done with it. David Assuming that users prefer to act directly on objects, would it not be more direct to allow them to right click on the menu item to remove it? This would be consistent with how users remove the Evo launcher from the panel. Cheers, Rick Context menus on menus themselves is something generally avoided. I'm pretty sure it's a big no-no in the GNOME HIG as well, but I'd have to check. David True, but personally, I'd rather make the system work the way users want and expect it to, even if it requires deviating from the HIG. Cheers, Rick If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse. -- Henry Ford David ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 10:38 -0500, David Siegel wrote: True, but personally, I'd rather make the system work the way users want and expect it to, even if it requires deviating from the HIG. Cheers, Rick If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse. -- Henry Ford Well ... there's a big difference between asking someone what they want, and watching what they do. Also, that quote refers to product definition, not detailed design. So, why I often agree with the notion, I'll call bullshit on that quote for this particular point. However, this is a now a pretty meta-discussion, so I'll also call uncle, and leave this up to the pros. Cheers, Rick ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
This did not come off in the good natured way that I intended. (stupid email and it's lack of body language and voice). I seriously meant to convey that I defer to the design team's judgment on this topic. Cheers, Rick On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 08:44 -0700, Rick Spencer wrote: On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 10:38 -0500, David Siegel wrote: True, but personally, I'd rather make the system work the way users want and expect it to, even if it requires deviating from the HIG. Cheers, Rick If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse. -- Henry Ford Well ... there's a big difference between asking someone what they want, and watching what they do. Also, that quote refers to product definition, not detailed design. So, why I often agree with the notion, I'll call bullshit on that quote for this particular point. However, this is a now a pretty meta-discussion, so I'll also call uncle, and leave this up to the pros. Cheers, Rick ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
Context menus on menus themselves is something generally avoided. I'm pretty sure it's a big no-no in the GNOME HIG as well, but I'd have to check. David On the topic of the HIG, please do not call this preferences if it is to control a single thing. There is no practical reason to give this a generic name, so call it what is is: Message sources... or somewhere along those lines :) For that matter, it is probably worth examining how many launchers there are actually going to be before throwing in a new toplevel window. How about a sub menu of Message Sources that has a list of toggleable menu items? What happens if the user disables all message sources so that the indicator applet vanishes? Thanks, Dylan McCall signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 410220] Re: Indicator applet Always shows icon
On Tue, 2009-08-25 at 21:51 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: We won't ever ask anyone to right click on a menu. Ever. Verb menu or noun menu? It might be worth sorting out the two. Martin, ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
