Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Den 28. aug. 2011 07:55, skrev huff: I also did a test with my eyes closed, just to see how much it affected me not being able to see the buttons as all. I was able to hit the close button 8 of 10 times when I had my eyes closed. I'd say the speed was about the same. What about the maximize button? Or the minimize button? Why the focus on the close button? That's the easiest one anyway (if it's in the corner and the others are next to it). The point is that you can get to within 20 pixels of any of the buttons with your eyes closed and then the buttons are visible. That is probably about as accurate as people will get if they move the pointer quickly towards the buttons in any case, so that means it doesn't harm that they're not visible until the mouse is there. That's the part that I think you are are missing. I aim at things I can see, not locations I have learned. The wait after the corner for me would not be waiting for the buttons, but waiting for me to identify where the one i want is. Normally I do that step while moving the mouse, so it takes no extra time. I think you're wrong. I didn't even notice that they had been hidden immediately. I'm not even entirely sure how I noticed it, but I immediately liked it. Hence the subject. It certainly hasn't slowed me down in any way. Well. If it's such great concern, then there's always other shells or even operating systems. I may have to do that, but I will be sad about it. I liked Ubuntu a lot up until I tried Unity for awhile. I went back to Classic, and am just hoping that the next version of Unity works for me. Which is why I signed up for this list in the first place. Unity is a fairly small part of Ubuntu though. We have at least ten different shells that I know of. There's probably quite a few more. But I would recommend against taking a strong stance before you've actually tried it. I think it works very nicely. But I haven't been able to find any real, unbiased, person who has any complaints about it. I haven't found any arguments here either, except for yours; I don't like it. I most certainly am biased by what works for me. Part of my job is designing interfaces, and I am quite familiar with what causes me to stumble. So if everyone else should do it a different way than I (and some of them) prefer, and Ubuntu forces us to do it that other way, then so be it. I will switch. Ubuntu doesn't force anything. Gnome Shell is in the software center, for instance. But you keep saying that it's wrong, but you don't really provide any arguments to support that claim. Perhaps Unity isn't the most suitable shell for the most technical users, but it certainly seems user friendly to the less experienced. Yes, but from what you're saying I don't think you've tested it yourself, much less tested it on others. For instance, we've never before had the buttons in the corner. I may have missed something in this thread, since the posts are so long, but being in the corner is not really helpful to me. If I can see them, it hardly matters to me where they are. Right. If they aren't in the corner, then you have ti see them. But since they're in the corner, you don't have to see them, which makes the interface less confusing because there are less clutter and useless controls. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
2011/8/28 Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com Den 28. aug. 2011 07:55, skrev huff: Yes, but from what you're saying I don't think you've tested it yourself, much less tested it on others. For instance, we've never before had the buttons in the corner. I may have missed something in this thread, since the posts are so long, but being in the corner is not really helpful to me. If I can see them, it hardly matters to me where they are. Right. If they aren't in the corner, then you have ti see them. But since they're in the corner, you don't have to see them, which makes the interface less confusing because there are less clutter and useless controls. Yes, but they are *not* in the corner. I cannot throw the mouse with my eyes closed and hit the X button because it has a 4px gap from the corner. This forces me to move the mouse, check, move again and finally click. It's a 4-step action for what should be a 2-step one: move and click. As far as my personal preferences are concerned, this would be enough. Make the invisible X button extend to the left and top edges and the invisible part becomes a non-issue: just throw the mouse and click. (Yes the X button gets special treatment, because you use it roughly an order of magnitude more often than the minimize and maximize buttons). My other concern has to do with computer-illiterate users who come across this for the first time. Jo asked me how those users cope with the invisible menus in 11.04. The answer is, they don't - they are still on 10.04 because (a) Unity is very rough in 11.04 and (b) I only use LTRs on them (upgrading every 6 months is painful). I just ask that these users be kept in mind for 12.04, that's all. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
2011/8/28 Stefanos A. stapos...@gmail.com 2011/8/28 Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com Den 28. aug. 2011 07:55, skrev huff: Yes, but from what you're saying I don't think you've tested it yourself, much less tested it on others. For instance, we've never before had the buttons in the corner. I may have missed something in this thread, since the posts are so long, but being in the corner is not really helpful to me. If I can see them, it hardly matters to me where they are. Right. If they aren't in the corner, then you have ti see them. But since they're in the corner, you don't have to see them, which makes the interface less confusing because there are less clutter and useless controls. Yes, but they are *not* in the corner. I cannot throw the mouse with my eyes closed and hit the X button because it has a 4px gap from the corner. This forces me to move the mouse, check, move again and finally click. It's a 4-step action for what should be a 2-step one: move and click. As far as my personal preferences are concerned, this would be enough. Make the invisible X button extend to the left and top edges and the invisible part becomes a non-issue: just throw the mouse and click. (Yes the X button gets special treatment, because you use it roughly an order of magnitude more often than the minimize and maximize buttons). https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/835977 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
My assumption is that if people are easily confused, then reducing the number of buttons and menus would reduce the chance of confusion. It also makes it much more comfortable to work with maximized windows, which is -- as you also point out -- becoming common, specially for less experienced users. Reducing buttons is one thing, ***hidding them*** is another very distinct thing. It's not the same. Like the current hidden menus. The first time I saw that, I searched why was that change done. And the reason I found was something like: the change was done because we want new app designers to keep the UI simple (elementary-styled). And there was a comment that I liked: hide things is not the way to simplify an interface. Why not? When in GNOME 3 the maximize and minimize buttons were eliminated, there was a *simplification*. Hidding things is not a way for simplifying an UI. Well, you don't show the element, the interface *looks* simple, but the complexity added to having to learn about the interface makes it more complex, actually. Hide all that is not my application is something called fullscreen that a lot of applications have. By definition, to maximize a window is not going fullscreen. Any way, configuration options are needed. I personally don't like that buttons and menus are hidden. And I see that some people like hidden buttons and menus. And if I have to install Ubuntu for someone new to Linux, I would like all the hidden items to be shown, because current state, as I said before, is too confusive. Also think on touch devices. I have seen some of this devices in YouTube using Ubuntu 10.10 for netbooks, because of menus are hidden in 11.04 and in 11.10. It's not possible to mouse over in a tablet computer. I think before someone makes changes like this, usability tests have to be performed. Before, not after. And I also think that Unity shell has to be as simple as possible for the end user. Unfortunately we can not force to all the users to read a manual before using an interface, except when the user is totally new to computers. I'm also worried about netbooks. I don't remember if the current behavior maximizes all windows. In a desktop computer, when a window is not maximized, the window controls are shown, and when you click maximize, the controls hide. At least you have an idea where the controls are (but really, I'm assuming too much when I say this). If all windows are maximized by default, you simply have no idea of where the buttons are. 2011/8/28 James Jenner james.g.jen...@gmail.com On 28 August 2011 14:07, Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com wrote: Right, and that was what I reacted to. You don't need to develop any muscle memory. If you hit anywhere on the panel (except the indicators, presently) then the menus and the window buttons are shown. Hitting the top of the screen doesn't qualify as something you need muscle memory for since it doesn't matter how far you move the mouse, as long as you move it forward. Hmm, maybe I'm not quite getting it. I'll have to wait until I have time and build a VM to check it out (most prob not for a week or so alas, got some deadlines looming). My assumption is that if people are easily confused, then reducing the number of buttons and menus would reduce the chance of confusion. It also makes it much more comfortable to work with maximized windows, which is -- as you also point out -- becoming common, specially for less experienced users. Most prob. a fair comment. I suspect I'm biased because I have a very large monitor and very rarely work maximised, I think however that most inexperienced users would work maximised and so it is more likely to not be an issue for those users. Why? Most people I know, haven't got any experience with type writers. It's not obvious to me that a ninety degree angle with a left arrow means you want a new line. It is more obvious that an up arrow means shift, since you're shifting from small to large characters, but it still isn't obvious. Or what about tab? Two arrows pointing to the left and right at a vertical bar? The point, obviously, is that you do need to learn some basic skills in order to interact with the computer and the system. Learning that you can expose extra functionality by moving the pointer to the top of the screen isn't very advanced. I would say that learning to use the mouse buttons are very much more difficult. When do you double click? Why do you never double click on the right button? When do you click the middle button? That _is_ complicated and that's something that's improved rather radically with the indicators. People really appreciate that. I'll give you that point.. I'm used to dealing with the 'older generation'. Often we get a lot of people in factories who are in their 40's or 50's, but in reality they wouldn't be familiar with a typewriter purely because they wouldn't have ever used one other
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Den 28. aug. 2011 15:07, skrev André Oliva: Reducing buttons is one thing, ***hidding them*** is another very distinct thing. It's not the same. Like the current hidden menus. The first time I saw that, I searched why was that change done. And the reason I found was something like: the change was done because we want new app designers to keep the UI simple (elementary-styled). And there was a comment that I liked: hide things is not the way to simplify an interface. Why not? When in GNOME 3 the maximize and minimize buttons were eliminated, there was a *simplification*. Hidding things is not a way for simplifying an UI. Well, you don't show the element, the interface *looks* simple, but the complexity added to having to learn about the interface makes it more complex, actually. Why would you want to add a menubar containing only a File menu which itself only contains an Exit item? It is far easier to simply click the button to close the window. So why is this being done in so many applications? Because without the menubar, the application looks primitive and weird compared to all the others. So, using a menubar isn't really optional anymore. By hiding the menus, it becomes easier for developers not to implement silly placeholder menubars, while applications that do use them properly will work as before. I am guilty of doing that myself, adding File Exit and Help About just to have a menubar and not being able to come up with any useful things to put in there. Your assumption that it is only a matter of style and looks is therefore wrong. Hiding the menubar helps developers add meaningless menus, which in turn helps to improve usability. You keep saying that learning to use this is complex. That makes me think you haven't actually tested it. As I've said before, I didn't even notice it at first, but when I did, I immediately liked it. I have tested this on inexperienced users, and they grasped it immediately, without any reaction of any kind. Hide all that is not my application is something called fullscreen that a lot of applications have. By definition, to maximize a window is not going fullscreen. Fullscreen is entirely different. Maximized applications are not displayed as fullscreen in Ubuntu. How did you get that idea? Any way, configuration options are needed. I personally don't like that buttons and menus are hidden. And I see that some people like hidden buttons and menus. And if I have to install Ubuntu for someone new to Linux, I would like all the hidden items to be shown, because current state, as I said before, is too confusive. Also think on touch devices. I have seen some of this devices in YouTube using Ubuntu 10.10 for netbooks, because of menus are hidden in 11.04 and in 11.10. It's not possible to mouse over in a tablet computer. Which device is it you're talking about and why are you talking about it? By the way, please stop talking about Linux that way. A user can be very, very used to Android and still being entirely new to Ubuntu or Chrome OS. Linux is not a user experience. I don't think I've seen menubars on any operating system designed for tablets, by the way. And I don't think Unity is anywhere near a good UI for those kinds of devices at this time. I also don't think it's meant to be. I think before someone makes changes like this, usability tests have to be performed. Before, not after. They have been. And as I said, my personal experience was that I didn't even notice it. It just works. That is also the reaction I get from inexperienced users I've tested it on. Watching a movie on Youtube does not give an accurate sense of how it works in practice. And I also think that Unity shell has to be as simple as possible for the end user. Unfortunately we can not force to all the users to read a manual before using an interface, except when the user is totally new to computers. Well, in this case, there is absolutely no need to read a manual. The buttons are always visible when you need them and they are very discoverable. They should be made visible when you use the indicators though. Most people are very used to tools being hidden when not in use. Consider a wrist watch, for instance. When you're not looking at it, it's often covered by a shirt or a jacket. When you need to look at it, then it is exposed. No problem. I'm also worried about netbooks. I don't remember if the current behavior maximizes all windows. In a desktop computer, when a window is not maximized, the window controls are shown, and when you click maximize, the controls hide. At least you have an idea where the controls are (but really, I'm assuming too much when I say this). If all windows are maximized by default, you simply have no idea of where the buttons are. Again, you should try it before you get too frustrated and opinionated. Applications are not maximized by default. I don't think they've ever been. But even if they were, it simply isn't true
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
The fact that you keep bringing up the corner means you aren't getting my point. It's fine that the corner-ness is helpful to you and others. I get that. I have already explained that that is not an issue for me, nor do I find it all that helpful. So, I feel It would be a waste of my time to continue discussing this. Sorry. On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:16:11 +0200 Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: Den 28. aug. 2011 07:55, skrev huff: I also did a test with my eyes closed, just to see how much it affected me not being able to see the buttons as all. I was able to hit the close button 8 of 10 times when I had my eyes closed. I'd say the speed was about the same. What about the maximize button? Or the minimize button? Why the focus on the close button? That's the easiest one anyway (if it's in the corner and the others are next to it). The point is that you can get to within 20 pixels of any of the buttons with your eyes closed and then the buttons are visible. That is probably about as accurate as people will get if they move the pointer quickly towards the buttons in any case, so that means it doesn't harm that they're not visible until the mouse is there. That's the part that I think you are are missing. I aim at things I can see, not locations I have learned. The wait after the corner for me would not be waiting for the buttons, but waiting for me to identify where the one i want is. Normally I do that step while moving the mouse, so it takes no extra time. I think you're wrong. I didn't even notice that they had been hidden immediately. I'm not even entirely sure how I noticed it, but I immediately liked it. Hence the subject. It certainly hasn't slowed me down in any way. Well. If it's such great concern, then there's always other shells or even operating systems. I may have to do that, but I will be sad about it. I liked Ubuntu a lot up until I tried Unity for awhile. I went back to Classic, and am just hoping that the next version of Unity works for me. Which is why I signed up for this list in the first place. Unity is a fairly small part of Ubuntu though. We have at least ten different shells that I know of. There's probably quite a few more. But I would recommend against taking a strong stance before you've actually tried it. I think it works very nicely. But I haven't been able to find any real, unbiased, person who has any complaints about it. I haven't found any arguments here either, except for yours; I don't like it. I most certainly am biased by what works for me. Part of my job is designing interfaces, and I am quite familiar with what causes me to stumble. So if everyone else should do it a different way than I (and some of them) prefer, and Ubuntu forces us to do it that other way, then so be it. I will switch. Ubuntu doesn't force anything. Gnome Shell is in the software center, for instance. But you keep saying that it's wrong, but you don't really provide any arguments to support that claim. Perhaps Unity isn't the most suitable shell for the most technical users, but it certainly seems user friendly to the less experienced. Yes, but from what you're saying I don't think you've tested it yourself, much less tested it on others. For instance, we've never before had the buttons in the corner. I may have missed something in this thread, since the posts are so long, but being in the corner is not really helpful to me. If I can see them, it hardly matters to me where they are. Right. If they aren't in the corner, then you have ti see them. But since they're in the corner, you don't have to see them, which makes the interface less confusing because there are less clutter and useless controls. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
2011/8/28 Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com Den 28. aug. 2011 15:07, skrev André Oliva: And I also think that Unity shell has to be as simple as possible for the end user. Unfortunately we can not force to all the users to read a manual before using an interface, except when the user is totally new to computers. Well, in this case, there is absolutely no need to read a manual. The buttons are always visible when you need them and they are very discoverable. They should be made visible when you use the indicators though. Most people are very used to tools being hidden when not in use. Consider a wrist watch, for instance. When you're not looking at it, it's often covered by a shirt or a jacket. When you need to look at it, then it is exposed. No problem. That's a very weird definition of 'discoverable'. Let me turn it around to you: why is the powercog icon on the top-right always visible, cluttering the workspace? The user always knows it's there (if he doesn't, he just needs to mouse over once and then he'll learn it) and the icon can appear dynamically on mouse over - when he *actually* needs it. Using your line of thought, the powercog and the user menu do not need to be shown by default - they don't offer any new information, they are always in the same place and the user can always reach them if he needs them. Why are they shown but the window buttons not? Wouldn't it be better if the application name took up the whole panel, especially on smaller screens where the indicator icons get in the way and cut it short? These icons can always be shown when the user needs them, so why not? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:20 AM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com wrote: Den 27. aug. 2011 06:24, skrev André Oliva: Really I think its oversimplification of things. Not everyone wants an elementary-style OS GUI, really. Simply there is a limit in simplification of things. I simply don't understand the reason for oversimplification. People simply don't want fullscreen in every application they work. I remember that Unity was first created for space efficiency. But really, there is **a lot** of space now. Why hide important things like window controls and Ubuntu button? Things that are common for a lot of operating systems... Explain why it is oversimplifying to not show everything that can be shown? Why are menus collapsed, for instance? Isn't that oversimplifying the UI? How are people ever going to understand that menus can be used if they aren't shown? Perhaps we should have blinking arrows pointing at them and a voice that keeps repeating a message every fifteen minutes: «You can click on menus to open them». That way people won't forget. Hyperbole aside, I think an experiment like this would have two effects: 1) It would be very annoying, obviously. 2) People who stuck with it would use the menus A LOT. Blinking arrows and a repetitive voice are too much, but anything we can do to gently make new users aware of existing functionality (without overwhelming them) seems like a good thing. I believe the ideal situation when a user wants to perform a brand new task is for them to think: Oh ya, I saw a button for that over here somewhere. They should already know how to do the task just by interacting with the interface in general. No. You can keep using the word oversimplify as often as you like, but it doesn't become anymore real. What I would like to hear, is a very good explanation of why it is important to show buttons that cannot be used. I can really only think of two reasons. I'm not particularly convinced by either of them, but they do exist: 1) Aiming - When an element is hidden and you have to mouse over it to activate it, then it's very hard to know which part of a very large screen to mouse over in order to find it. This applies less to the window buttons (since they're always very top-left) but more to the menus. If I'm in an app with a lot of menus, and I want to go to menu X, I can't immediately find it. I have to make two motions: a vertical one to the menu bar and then a horizontal one along the menu bar to the menu I want. If I knew immediately where the desired menu was placed, I could make one, diagonal movement straight to it. 2) Discoverability - When a user isn't sure how to do something, they typically don't make any actions (including moving the mouse). They visually search the screen in its current state, looking for an element that seems related to their goal. I imagine that some small subset of new Ubuntu users, having maximized a window, would do this and never think to mouse over the window title at all. Sure, it's where the target element used to be, where it normally is, but it's clearly 'not there' anymore. Because it really is not possible to click a button without having the mouse close to where you're clicking. Your argument that the buttons need to be visible because they are visible in Windows, is not a valid argument. First of all, because they haven't always been that way. I think it's much more useful to see the title of the page you're currently reading than it is to show me the buttons for eight hours a day, six days a week. Do you really feel that a normal person won't be able to remember that the buttons are always in the upper left corner? Then how are they able to use the computer at all? I mean... They would also forget where the button is to power on the computer. Remembering the purpose of an item you can see is a lot easier than remembering the location and purpose of something you can't see. Not that users aren't up to the task, but it does add one more piece of complexity. However, remembering the title of the page you are reading, requires much more mental capacity. Do you really disagree with that? No, but I would argue that knowing the full title of the current window is less frequently used than closing/maximizing/minimizing it. --- I'm honestly not 100% sure where I personally stand on this issue. I do like how clean the interface becomes for maximized windows in the new unity, but I'm also a little bit worried about the usability implications of that decision. Time will tell, I suppose. Evan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
2) Discoverability - When a user isn't sure how to do something, they typically don't make any actions (including moving the mouse). They visually search the screen in its current state, looking for an element that seems related to their goal. I imagine that some small subset of new Ubuntu users, having maximized a window, would do this and never think to mouse over the window title at all. Sure, it's where the target element used to be, where it normally is, but it's clearly 'not there' anymore. That's exactly the reason I'm worried about. All users new to Ubuntu 11.04 that I have seen (of course, not hundreds of people, but in my University we made a workshop on Linux for students of Physics, people that uses only Windows), and I noticed that when they wanted the launcher, they always mouse over the Ubuntu button. Even if it's possible to reveal it by simply mousing over the left side of the screen, which for me and for other people is the *obvious* way to reveal the launcher (because of the hidding animation), the people I observed moused over the Ubuntu button, I think **because of they looked for the only visual element that suggests that launcher can be discovered**, that is, the Ubuntu button. The people that attended that workshop is not stupid, of course. They are undergraduate students. But their only contact with computers all their lives was on Windows. It's a reallity. Of course, I would like Linux distributions to be designed totally independent of the other OS's, but if the goal is to attract people to Linux, ignoring that reallity is not an alternative. At least in 11.04 Ubuntu button is there, and they could perform the action they wanted by simply mousing over the Ubuntu button. What would happen to new users if window controls are also hidden? In 11.04, menus are hidden and I was also concerned about that, but, at least, tipically there are other buttons on application's UI that are used for performing the most frequent actions. Window controls are used frequently. They're an important element of a window. Why not to have an option in somewhere that allows everything to be hidden and let the new users to get a clean and intuitive interface? Isn't Ubuntu Linux for human beings?! From Wikipedia: Meaning of ubuntu: humanity towards others The original aim of the Ubuntu team was to create an easy-to-use (freedom for users rather than freedom for programmers) Linux desktop with new releases scheduled on a predictable six-month basis, resulting in a more frequently updated system. *Easy to use (freedom for users rather than freedom for programmers)* 2011/8/27 Evan Huus eapa...@gmail.com On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:20 AM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com wrote: Den 27. aug. 2011 06:24, skrev André Oliva: Really I think its oversimplification of things. Not everyone wants an elementary-style OS GUI, really. Simply there is a limit in simplification of things. I simply don't understand the reason for oversimplification. People simply don't want fullscreen in every application they work. I remember that Unity was first created for space efficiency. But really, there is **a lot** of space now. Why hide important things like window controls and Ubuntu button? Things that are common for a lot of operating systems... Explain why it is oversimplifying to not show everything that can be shown? Why are menus collapsed, for instance? Isn't that oversimplifying the UI? How are people ever going to understand that menus can be used if they aren't shown? Perhaps we should have blinking arrows pointing at them and a voice that keeps repeating a message every fifteen minutes: «You can click on menus to open them». That way people won't forget. Hyperbole aside, I think an experiment like this would have two effects: 1) It would be very annoying, obviously. 2) People who stuck with it would use the menus A LOT. Blinking arrows and a repetitive voice are too much, but anything we can do to gently make new users aware of existing functionality (without overwhelming them) seems like a good thing. I believe the ideal situation when a user wants to perform a brand new task is for them to think: Oh ya, I saw a button for that over here somewhere. They should already know how to do the task just by interacting with the interface in general. No. You can keep using the word oversimplify as often as you like, but it doesn't become anymore real. What I would like to hear, is a very good explanation of why it is important to show buttons that cannot be used. I can really only think of two reasons. I'm not particularly convinced by either of them, but they do exist: 1) Aiming - When an element is hidden and you have to mouse over it to activate it, then it's very hard to know which part of a very large screen to mouse over in order to find it. This applies less to the window buttons (since they're always very top-left) but
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
You seem to have very low opinion of your fellow human beings. I actually feel a little insulted. But this discussion is not useful. The buttons have been hidden and even if you think that the majority of people will now no longer be able to close windows, because they forget that windows can be closed when they don't get a constant reminder, that's the way it is now. I feel very confident that people will be able to commit to memory that the upper left is used to close windows. You're creating very large problems out of nothing. Ubuntu is not meant to be an operating system for the mentally challenged, but for average human beings. They aren't going to go desperate by the fact that the button to start applications aren't green and aren't in the lower right corner. If anything, people should not be given the impression that they can learn how to use a computer by exploration. It is an exceptionally bad idea. They do have to learn how to use it. It should be easy to learn, but these types of changes does not in any way make a computer more difficult to use. If you try to make everything obvious, then nothing will be obvious. Most people use computers often. They should learn how to use it by reading something, not by exploration. Because even after years of exploration, they will not be able to grasp basic concepts, whereas spending five minutes on a quick tutorial will give users with experience from other systems a good understanding of how everything works. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 9:08 AM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com wrote: You seem to have very low opinion of your fellow human beings. I actually feel a little insulted. I apologize, I'm sure that wasn't anybody's intention. But this discussion is not useful. The buttons have been hidden and even if you think that the majority of people will now no longer be able to close windows, because they forget that windows can be closed when they don't get a constant reminder, that's the way it is now. I feel very confident that people will be able to commit to memory that the upper left is used to close windows. I agree that as far as Oneiric is concerned, the Interface Freeze is past and the hidden buttons are more or less the way it's going to be. But that doesn't mean that we can't be looking ahead to 12.04. As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm personally not sure what the best route forward is on this issue, but there's no harm in having an intelligent debate on the topic. You're creating very large problems out of nothing. Ubuntu is not meant to be an operating system for the mentally challenged, but for average human beings. They aren't going to go desperate by the fact that the button to start applications aren't green and aren't in the lower right corner. Nobody in this thread has proposed that the best path forward is simply to mimic Windows (or Mac OS) just because. However, keeping in mind people's past experiences is an important part of designing a user interface. People make decisions based on past experiences, and those decisions influence how they interact with the interface. I believe that not taking this into account is a mistake. If anything, people should not be given the impression that they can learn how to use a computer by exploration. It is an exceptionally bad idea. Why is that a bad idea? We can't make people read the manual, and not everybody has a friend with past experience they can ask when they're stuck. How else are all those people going to learn the interface? They do have to learn how to use it. It should be easy to learn, but these types of changes does not in any way make a computer more difficult to use. I think what you're saying here is that Easy to learn != Easy to use, which I.do agree with. I just think that these changes do, in fact make the interface harder to learn, because they make it harder to explore. At this point we're back to the question of whether exploration is a valid method of learning an interface. If you try to make everything obvious, then nothing will be obvious. We do want to avoid information overload, but window manipulation is a relatively common action. I think we want to make common actions obvious, and hide away less common actions to avoid clutter. This is why I don't have a problem with hiding the menus: they typically contain less common actions. Most people use computers often. They should learn how to use it by reading something, not by exploration. Most people use toasters often. How many people do you know who have read the manual for their toaster? Again, we can't force people to read the manual, and in fact most people aren't going to even bother reading the manual. They're going to sit down at the interface, and expect to be able to explore or intuit their way to their goal. Ignoring these people as potential users seems like a bad idea to me. Because even after years of exploration, they will not be able to grasp basic concepts, whereas spending five minutes on a quick tutorial will give users with experience from other systems a good understanding of how everything works. Manuals and tutorials are certainly more efficient means of teaching the user, but I disagree that exploration is entirely useless. I don't have any data to back up that assertion unfortunately. This is turning into a very interesting discussion of user-interface design principals. I hope that by the time the 12.04 cycle starts up we have reached some sort of consensus (even if the consensus is that we need to do more usability studies before we make a decision). Cheers, Evan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Den 27. aug. 2011 15:57, skrev Evan Huus: I apologize, I'm sure that wasn't anybody's intention. Apology accepted. I didn't really mean it very seriously :) I agree that as far as Oneiric is concerned, the Interface Freeze is past and the hidden buttons are more or less the way it's going to be. But that doesn't mean that we can't be looking ahead to 12.04. As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm personally not sure what the best route forward is on this issue, but there's no harm in having an intelligent debate on the topic. Agreed. But an intelligent debate on this subject would require empirical data. We'll have this cycle to test it in the real world, and if it should cause any significant issues, then it will be possible to revert in the P-cycle. I really doubt that it would cause any problems at all. Nobody in this thread has proposed that the best path forward is simply to mimic Windows (or Mac OS) just because. However, keeping in mind people's past experiences is an important part of designing a user interface. People make decisions based on past experiences, and those decisions influence how they interact with the interface. I believe that not taking this into account is a mistake. With the risk of sounding like an elitist, normal users do as they're told. That is how it should be. They do not spend large amounts of time thinking about where a button is best placed, like we do. We should never make a change for the simple reason that we want to be different. That would be stupid. But it would be equally stupid to copy old mistakes in order to stay similar. In Windows, there is no reason not to show the buttons since the window frame is visible in any case. The situation is different in Ubuntu. We have something to gain from hiding them. Another thing is that many users are only using the browser. This is what makes Google Chrome OS an attractive alternative to some users. These kinds of users will never close the browser window and so presenting them with an option to do so, makes no sense. With Ubuntu, you can get the same experience, but with a browser of your own choice. It's simply a matter of running the browser at login. But Ubuntu will provide more features that are available in the top left, which are useful even to those users. If anything, people should not be given the impression that they can learn how to use a computer by exploration. It is an exceptionally bad idea. Why is that a bad idea? Because it is a misconception. Lots of users believe that Windows is user friendly for the simple reason that they've been using it for many years. I had a talk with a user in a Norwegian IRC channel the other day, and it became apparent to me that he didn't understand partitioning, filesystems, mount points, etc. I had completely forgotten that partitioning is a complicated thing, simply because to me it's obvious after so many years. Most people who use a computer, uses a computer for long periods of time and frequently. You can spend a year exploring the system without discovering all the features. If you are going to spend hundreds of hours using a tool, you really should spend an hour learning how to use it properly. I'm not saying that you should have to read a thick bible, but a quick intro of a few pages should be available in all new users homes and reading it should be encouraged. We can't make people read the manual, and not everybody has a friend with past experience they can ask when they're stuck. How else are all those people going to learn the interface? Sure we can. Using a car is much easier than using a computer, but nobody is proposing that people should just explore how it works. And people are willing to spend time learning how to use it properly because it is important to them. The computer is a very important part of most users lives and they should learn how to use it properly. I think it's a shame, for instance, that most users of Ubuntu doesn't know anything about using SSH and GPG keys. In the modern day, this is something all users should know, even if they aren't used to it from Windows. But you cannot learn this by exploring. You have to read something. I think what you're saying here is that Easy to learn != Easy to use, which I.do agree with. I just think that these changes do, in fact make the interface harder to learn, because they make it harder to explore. At this point we're back to the question of whether exploration is a valid method of learning an interface. No, I'm saying that if something is easy to learn, it is also easy to use. But you do need to learn. If we were to design Ubuntu in a way that doesn't require people to learn, then it would have to be a very primitive product. We do want to avoid information overload, but window manipulation is a relatively common action. I think we want to make common actions obvious, and hide away less common actions to avoid clutter. This is why I don't have a problem with hiding the
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 05:57:20 +0200 Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: Den 27. aug. 2011 05:02, skrev James Jenner: I agree with you in regards to people learning the behaviour of the application, people are not stupid and they will learn how to do certain activities. This is partly the building of the mental model and partly muscle memory. I don't understand that. By moving the buttons to the corner, it is very easy to hit. Hiding the buttons do not in any way impact muscle memory. I recently moved the buttons from the right to the left to be more consistent with some part of Unity (that I have since turned off). Anyway, after a short time, I didn't find it any harder to hit them. But I never had a sense that I was using muscle memory for those. I always look for them and then hit them. It's what i prefer. I do use a lot of muscle memory for the array of keyboard shortcuts I use, but not much on the mouse. If it's not obvious, I much prefer that those three little buttons be visible all the time. They take up very little space. If people feel so strongly about this on both sides, doesn't it just beg for a configuration setting? I am already used to going and changing a lot of settings on Windows away from the default. I could get used to it on Ubuntu, too. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
On 27 August 2011 17:29, huff huffyli...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 05:57:20 +0200 Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: Den 27. aug. 2011 05:02, skrev James Jenner: I agree with you in regards to people learning the behaviour of the application, people are not stupid and they will learn how to do certain activities. This is partly the building of the mental model and partly muscle memory. Well, that's the advantage of moving them to the corner. Now you can use muscle memory to get very close to them. If it's not obvious, I much prefer that those three little buttons be visible all the time. They take up very little space. They also serve no purpose. You move the pointer to the corner of the screen and they are visible. You don't need to have pictures on the screen to tell you where the corner is. If people feel so strongly about this on both sides, doesn't it just beg for a configuration setting? No, I don't think so. Making the buttons visible serves no purpose. Meaningless configuration options are ... well. Meaningless. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com wrote: Den 27. aug. 2011 15:57, skrev Evan Huus: --snip-- Manuals and tutorials are certainly more efficient means of teaching the user, but I disagree that exploration is entirely useless. I don't have any data to back up that assertion unfortunately. Sure you do. For many years, it's been not only possible, but easy to encrypt personal files in Ubuntu. But you do need to understand the concepts, even if it is theoretically possible to learn by trial and error. Still, most people don't know how to do it. They do, however, feel uncertain when it comes to privacy. So they have a problem, but do not fix it because they do not know that the solution is readily available. They do want to learn, but they don't. The number one reason is the misconception that computers are intuitive and that they can learn by exploration. I think this example has actually changed my mind. I have some serious thinking to do now. Evan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
From my observations of classmates, fellow students and various other users, I see roughly 2 categories of users (putting all nuances aside for the moment): - Those who do learn a lot by themselves by active exploration, by trying things out to see what happens. - Those who don't and tend to struggle even with what is being taught to them step by step. They end up barely capable of following a few receipts, but if there is any deviation, they are lost. Of course there are things where you just have to read documentation, because of inherent complexity and risks. I don't think window management should fall into that category. Totally agree with you. I observed almost the same behavior. Nobody in this thread has proposed that the best path forward is simply to mimic Windows (or Mac OS) just because. However, keeping in mind people's past experiences is an important part of designing a user interface. People make decisions based on past experiences, and those decisions influence how they interact with the interface. I believe that not taking this into account is a mistake. If anything, people should not be given the impression that they can learn how to use a computer by exploration. It is an exceptionally bad idea. Why is that a bad idea? We can't make people read the manual, and not everybody has a friend with past experience they can ask when they're stuck. How else are all those people going to learn the interface? Also I agree with that. Some people likes tutorials, but generally, people wants to do things. This is the reason people uses a computer for. When a UI gets too complicated or has too many things that have to be learned in a manual, this can happen: The Girl Who Didn't Want Ubuntu http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/08/ubuntu-college-girl-dropping-out-laptop/ And, seriously, that was Ubuntu 9.10. GNOME (with a lot of buttons and menus). Not Unity. And she simply reacted as many users different, new = it may not work. So, the UI has to be simple and clear. Thinking about 12.04, where is the right place and when is the right time to get involved in the discussion? 2011/8/27 Evan Huus eapa...@gmail.com On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com wrote: Den 27. aug. 2011 15:57, skrev Evan Huus: --snip-- Manuals and tutorials are certainly more efficient means of teaching the user, but I disagree that exploration is entirely useless. I don't have any data to back up that assertion unfortunately. Sure you do. For many years, it's been not only possible, but easy to encrypt personal files in Ubuntu. But you do need to understand the concepts, even if it is theoretically possible to learn by trial and error. Still, most people don't know how to do it. They do, however, feel uncertain when it comes to privacy. So they have a problem, but do not fix it because they do not know that the solution is readily available. They do want to learn, but they don't. The number one reason is the misconception that computers are intuitive and that they can learn by exploration. I think this example has actually changed my mind. I have some serious thinking to do now. Evan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Den 27. aug. 2011 19:10, skrev André Oliva: From my observations of classmates, fellow students and various other users, I see roughly 2 categories of users (putting all nuances aside for the moment): - Those who do learn a lot by themselves by active exploration, by trying things out to see what happens. - Those who don't and tend to struggle even with what is being taught to them step by step. They end up barely capable of following a few receipts, but if there is any deviation, they are lost. If you're trying to tell me a that a student is unable to learn that you need to move the mouse to the upper-left corner of the screen when you want to close an application, then I simply don't believe you. Of course there are things where you just have to read documentation, because of inherent complexity and risks. I don't think window management should fall into that category. Totally agree with you. I observed almost the same behavior. I don't understand how anyone would be able to use a computer without learning how. Have you ever tested these things in reality? New users doesn't know how to find the shift key on a computer unless it is explained to them. Computers are not intuitive. Never has been and it won't be until we implement EEG support and get some really slick and precise EEG equipment to serve. That's not coming very soon. We can't make people read the manual, and not everybody has a friend with past experience they can ask when they're stuck. How else are all those people going to learn the interface? Also I agree with that. Some people likes tutorials, but generally, people wants to do things. This is the reason people uses a computer for. When a UI gets too complicated or has too many things that have to be learned in a manual, this can happen: We are talking about the upper-left corner. The manual you are talking about is this sentence: to close a window, move the mouse to the upper-left corner to show the buttons and click the red one with an X on it. It's not like this is a very hard study requiring hours of reading. It takes less than a minute to explain and understand. How the people you are talking about have been able to use a computer, is far beyond my comprehension if they are unable to understand such a simple concept. The Girl Who Didn't Want Ubuntu http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/08/ubuntu-college-girl-dropping-out-laptop/ And, seriously, that was Ubuntu 9.10. GNOME (with a lot of buttons and menus). Not Unity. And she simply reacted as many users different, new = it may not work. So, the UI has to be simple and clear. Exactly. She had been told that Ubuntu was just like Windows and that you could just use it without learning anything. That's what you say we should still do. I say that we should have a page describing how to use the system. If you are going to use something for thousands of hours, then I don't understand why you would be unwilling to spend five or ten minutes to learn how to use it. Perhaps even an hour. Thinking about 12.04, where is the right place and when is the right time to get involved in the discussion? The right time certainly isn't now, since nobody have even tried 11.10 yet. We should learn and base decisions on the things that we learn. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Den 27. aug. 2011 18:31, skrev Thorsten Wilms: On 08/27/2011 03:08 PM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: If anything, people should not be given the impression that they can learn how to use a computer by exploration. Aspects that may support the impression that a UI can be learned by exploration: - Visibility of options - Clearly defined active areas (like buttons that do look like buttons) - Direct manipulation - Immediate feedback - Forgiveness (especially Undo) - Hints (info-bar messages, tooltips) Does it seem like a good idea to do away with all that? Nobody has ever proposed that we do away with all that. But yes, I do feel that a screen with thousands of options visible at all times makes the system much more difficult to use. No matter how big your screen is, there will never be room for all possible options to be shown at all times. I can see no reason why anyone would need a constant reminder for thousands of hours how they can close a window. Perhaps it will take 30 seconds to learn how to expose menus and window controls. Are you seriously telling me that anyone you know would require more time than that? Is it your point that by exploring Ubuntu, people should discover that since it is similar to Windows, you can just run Windows applications? Because that is a very obvious assumption to make, wouldn't you say? So, by telling people to not learn about Ubuntu, but to just use it like've always used Windows, you're making everything much more difficult for them. If they instead took the fifteen minutes to read, then they would not make those kinds of wrong assumptions and they would not say Ubuntu is bad software because spotify.exe didn't run. From my observations of classmates, fellow students and various other users, I see roughly 2 categories of users (putting all nuances aside for the moment): - Those who do learn a lot by themselves by active exploration, by trying things out to see what happens. - Those who don't and tend to struggle even with what is being taught to them step by step. They end up barely capable of following a few receipts, but if there is any deviation, they are lost. Of course there are things where you just have to read documentation, because of inherent complexity and risks. I don't think window management should fall into that category. To close a window, move the mouse to the upper-left corner to show the buttons and click the red one. That's a heavy study, huh? It should be easy to learn, but these types of changes does not in any way make a computer more difficult to use. Elsewhere you stated the need to see how this works out in practice, but here you make statement you can't back up. It is a fact that closing a window via the close button becomes more difficult, if the button is hidden at first. The only way how this would not make using the computer more difficult, would be if That is not a fact. Indeed, it is wrong. You move the mouse the exact same way. You click the button the exact same way. Identical. You just need to know that they are there, which requires a few seconds of explanation. To make those seconds into such a big deal, tells me that some people are terrified of any kind of change. It isn't rational. It isn't real. And yes, I have tested this in real life, on inexperienced users. None of them had any kind of reaction to it at all. People do not panic when the buttons are moved from right to left, and they certainly do not panic by the fact that they aren't clickable until you move the mouse to the buttons. Using the mouse, however, is really difficult to them. But that cannot be fixed by Ubuntu. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Den 27. aug. 2011 21:34, skrev huff: No, I don't think so. Making the buttons visible serves no purpose. Well, you really are giving just your opinion. Need? No, of course not. But I sure do want them. For me, that's the purpose they serve. I want them. Having them fills that purpose. Yes, you want them. But why? Is there any other reason than liking to see orange circles with X-es in them? Also, why are people so OK with this 2 step process of moving to the corner and then seeing them? To me it is absurd. Muscle memory? OK, but not everyone has the same experience when it comes to that. No, this has nothing at all to do with muscle memory. Not a thing. You're aiming for the corner of the screen. You can do that with your eyes closed, so whether the button is red, blue or invisible, is completely irrelevant. I don't at all understand what you mean by a two step process. Can you please explain how you usually click buttons when the mouse is not close to them? Clearly, I am not the only one that wants these buttons or I wouldn't have stumbled on the argument for them. Yes, but it seems that the wish is completely irrational. It shouldn't be imposed on millions of users. I am really confused by how often people just can't understand that people use computers in various ways. That's the point. This doesn't affect use in any way. But it does make the title of the page/window you're reading more visible. I think that's valuable. Certainly more valuable than a reminder that I can exit an application if I want to -- which obviously, lots of people never do. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
2011/8/27 Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com Den 27. aug. 2011 19:10, skrev André Oliva: From my observations of classmates, fellow students and various other users, I see roughly 2 categories of users (putting all nuances aside for the moment): - Those who do learn a lot by themselves by active exploration, by trying things out to see what happens. - Those who don't and tend to struggle even with what is being taught to them step by step. They end up barely capable of following a few receipts, but if there is any deviation, they are lost. If you're trying to tell me a that a student is unable to learn that you need to move the mouse to the upper-left corner of the screen when you want to close an application, then I simply don't believe you. You obviously have never watched a psychology or philosophy major in front of a computer, have you? No offense intended, but I support a lot of systems and there *are* people who are not computer literate and do have a problem with abstract concepts. We can't make people read the manual, and not everybody has a friend with past experience they can ask when they're stuck. How else are all those people going to learn the interface? We are talking about the upper-left corner. The manual you are talking about is this sentence: to close a window, move the mouse to the upper-left corner to show the buttons and click the red one with an X on it. It's not like this is a very hard study requiring hours of reading. It takes less than a minute to explain and understand. How the people you are talking about have been able to use a computer, is far beyond my comprehension if they are unable to understand such a simple concept. Indeed, it's difficult to understand until you meet such people face to face. They do use computers, however, because they *need* to use computers. Some may have been tought on a (paid) course 15 years ago; others may have followed printed manuals (the complete idiot's guid to ... and the like). They are not stupid, many are well-educated with good paying jobs, but they do not care to explore a computer and learn about it in depth - they just need to fire it up, fill in an online form and print a document. To them, printing translates into click the File menu, select Print, click Ok and wait for the paper to come out. They are people who don't know the difference between the minimize and close buttons. Tell them to open a new program and they ask you whether they should close all other windows first. And should they meet a program without a File menu, they will call you for help (how do I print in this new Office/IE/Firefox thing?) I dread the moment I will be forced to upgrade any of them from 10.04 to Unity with its invisible menus and window controls. It's a disaster waiting to happen. What can I say. Personally, I won't have difficulty adapting to the new system, as I didn't have with the global menus (despite their problems on Linux, where they are window-based instead of application-based) or the buttons on left change. However, I know very well indeed that people do have genuine difficulty adapting to these wanton changes. If there is any will left to support such users in Ubuntu, we will have to be a little more careful than dismissing valid questions with I can't believe anyone would have a problem with this. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
And in spite of everything else, the close button does not extend all the way to the top left of the screen. You cannot simply move your mouse to the top left and click - you have to move the mouse to show the controls, aim, move some more and finally click. Try doing that on a laptop touchpad and see how many times you need to lift your finger until you can finally hit the damn button. It's four times on average for me and I have a nice, accurate touchpad. For the love of god, please make the button extend to the edge, because right now it's horrible! ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
On 28 August 2011 01:09, Stefanos A. stapos...@gmail.com wrote: To them, printing translates into click the File menu, select Print, click Ok and wait for the paper to come out. They are people who don't Ok, so they are able to show a hidden menu by clicking a text label, but they are incapable of moving the pointer to the top of the screen? That is very difficult for me to understand. know the difference between the minimize and close buttons. Tell them to open a new program and they ask you whether they should close all other windows first. And should they meet a program without a File menu, they will call you for help (how do I print in this new Office/IE/Firefox thing?) I dread the moment I will be forced to upgrade any of them from 10.04 to Unity with its invisible menus and window controls. It's a disaster waiting to happen. Yes, and the same fear was extremely loud when the buttons were moved from right to left. People were screaming that they would now have to switch to Windows, because it would be impossible to explain that the buttons was now on the left of the screen. Very similar to the current discussion that users will not be able to move the mouse to the top of the screen. What can I say. Personally, I won't have difficulty adapting to the new system, as I didn't have with the global menus (despite their problems on Linux, where they are window-based instead of application-based) or the buttons on left change. However, I know very well indeed that people do have genuine difficulty adapting to these wanton changes. If there is any will left to support such users in Ubuntu, we will have to be a little more careful than dismissing valid questions with I can't believe anyone would have a problem with this. Well, you are assuming that I haven't tested this on incredibly inexperienced computer users. That assumption is wrong. Helping inexperienced users has been a hobby of mine since 1995. That's more than fifteen years. I have never met anyone who couldn't be taught to click the start button in Windows or to click the buttons on the window decorator to close and minimize windows. Most people are even able to use websites, which is far more difficult. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
On 28 August 2011 01:21, Stefanos A. stapos...@gmail.com wrote: And in spite of everything else, the close button does not extend all the way to the top left of the screen. You cannot simply move your mouse to the top left and click - you have to move the mouse to show the controls, aim, move some more and finally click. Try doing that on a laptop touchpad and see how many times you need to lift your finger until you can finally hit the damn button. It's four times on average for me and I have a nice, accurate touchpad. For the love of god, please make the button extend to the edge, because right now it's horrible! It's not horrible. I agree that it is possible to miss the close button, but it is not easy. Out of ten tries, I managed to miss it once. Judging my eye, it seems to me that there is three or maybe four pixels between the buttons left side and the edge of the screen. That means it's far easier to close the window when you want to minimize it, but that's not what you're complaining about, even though you are mostly worried about inexperienced users. This is very puzzling to me. Can you explain that? Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:44:44 +0200 Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: Yes, you want them. But why? Is there any other reason than liking to see orange circles with X-es in them? Like looking at circles?!? Seriously, dude. The reason I like them is because I look at them before I move the mouse and aim the mouse at the one I want to click. No, this has nothing at all to do with muscle memory. Not a thing. You're aiming for the corner of the screen. You can do that with your eyes closed, so whether the button is red, blue or invisible, is completely irrelevant. I don't at all understand what you mean by a two step process. Sure, I can hit the corner of the screen with my eyes closed. But I most certainly cannot hit the maximize button with my eyes closed, and not the x button, either. Two steps: Move to the corner and wait for the buttons to appear. then move to the button I want to click. Clearly, I am not the only one that wants these buttons or I wouldn't have stumbled on the argument for them. Yes, but it seems that the wish is completely irrational. It shouldn't be imposed on millions of users. It seems irrational to you because you cannot conceive of why someone would like it. But people do. I am really confused by how often people just can't understand that people use computers in various ways. That's the point. This doesn't affect use in any way. You can say that as often and in as many ways as you like, but if people like/dislike it, it does affect use! ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Den 28. aug. 2011 02:41, skrev huff: On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:44:44 +0200 Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: Yes, you want them. But why? Is there any other reason than liking to see orange circles with X-es in them? Like looking at circles?!? Seriously, dude. The reason I like them is because I look at them before I move the mouse and aim the mouse at the one I want to click. That's what I'm trying to understand. I have been using a mouse since I was about nine, and that means 22 years of experience. I have never been able to hit those buttons directly without slowing down from a distance greater than a few centimeters. And now that it has become so very much easier to hit those buttons... Why are you complaining now? It seems very odd that after all these years of having those buttons placed in difficult positions, that people would want to complain once they're next to impossible to miss. Except if you're a real ninja on the mouse, with such a great control that you can write with it like a pen. Most other users would need to take a split second to hit those buttons in any case. With all these complaints, I've given it a real go. I tested on my desktop with a 24 screen running 1920x1080 and on my laptop with a 13 screen on 1360x768. On the desktop I use a mouse, and on the laptop I've tested with both the mouse and the touchpad. I used the same mouse on the desktop and laptop. I did 25 tries in each combination, to a total of 75 tries. I did not program any software to time it, but I did enable the seconds on the panel clock. From all positions on the desktop, I was able to hit the close button in less than two seconds. I had no problems hitting the button while watching the clock on the opposite side of the screen. On the laptop using the mouse, I got close to identical results that I got from the desktop. Using the touchpad was a little slower, but I never used more than three seconds. Of the 75 tries, I hit on first attempt 63 times. Is that really such a horrible result? I also tried with 11.04 on the desktop. I wasn't able to clock it as precisely, because it wasn't possible to hit the close button while watching the clock, but it did take longer. Around four seconds in average, I'd say. I did hit the button all times, though, but that's not surprising since I was looking at it. I also did a test with my eyes closed, just to see how much it affected me not being able to see the buttons as all. I was able to hit the close button 8 of 10 times when I had my eyes closed. I'd say the speed was about the same. It's not a scientific test, of course, but it makes me very certain in my own views. None of the people I've tested it on, which is about fifteen to twenty people -- also not meant as a scientific test -- had any complains. But on this list... The complaints are many. Hmm. What a coincidence. Just as expected. No, this has nothing at all to do with muscle memory. Not a thing. You're aiming for the corner of the screen. You can do that with your eyes closed, so whether the button is red, blue or invisible, is completely irrelevant. I don't at all understand what you mean by a two step process. Sure, I can hit the corner of the screen with my eyes closed. But I most certainly cannot hit the maximize button with my eyes closed, and not the x button, either. How are you able to miss the close-button? It's just two pixels? Two steps: Move to the corner and wait for the buttons to appear. then move to the button I want to click. Wait for the buttons? Then you must have super-human eyes and brain, or an extremely very slow computer. I cannot tell how quickly it happens, because I don't have super-human eyes. Does it matter if you wait 5 or 30ms? That's obviously not a valid argument. Clearly, I am not the only one that wants these buttons or I wouldn't have stumbled on the argument for them. Yes, but it seems that the wish is completely irrational. It shouldn't be imposed on millions of users. It seems irrational to you because you cannot conceive of why someone would like it. But people do. Who? I am obviously not talking about existing users, because they are obviously not testable. You can test the efficiency, but asking for taste from people who are accustomed to something, is completely pointless. I am really confused by how often people just can't understand that people use computers in various ways. That's the point. This doesn't affect use in any way. You can say that as often and in as many ways as you like, but if people like/dislike it, it does affect use! Really? Is that your scientific point of view, that if it feels good, then it is better? Successrates and time spent doesn't matter? Well. If it's such great concern, then there's always other shells or even operating systems. But I haven't been able to find any real, unbiased, person who has any complaints about it. I haven't found any arguments here either, except for yours; I don't like it. Yes, but from
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
On 27 August 2011 13:57, Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.comwrote: Den 27. aug. 2011 05:02, skrev James Jenner: I agree with you in regards to people learning the behaviour of the application, people are not stupid and they will learn how to do certain activities. This is partly the building of the mental model and partly muscle memory. I don't understand that. By moving the buttons to the corner, it is very easy to hit. Hiding the buttons do not in any way impact muscle memory. I was agreeing with you, not sure why you thought I was not. In regards to my comment on muscle memory, I meant that once it is developed it doesn't matter if they're visible or not. Well. How do people learn how to move windows? How do they learn how to press enter in order to get a new line? There are things you need to learn when using a computer. Assuming otherwise, is not constructive. People learn these things because they use their computers. While people do need to learn things, you don't try and make it hard for them for no reason other than someone thought hiding buttons makes everything pretty and clean. I would have thought you have dealt with people who are not familiar with computers, I know I have and actions like moving windows is something that they have a hard time to learn. It's not a frequent activity and it's something they generally don't bother doing as they cannot remember how to do it (again based on my observations, but then my work has historically let me interact with a lot of users who are first time users of a computer and in that only when they have to). Comparison to the enter key is not comparing apples to apples. It has correlation in the real world, has text stating it's action and has correlation with early electronic typewriters. This is very different to say, learning how to close a window with the keyboard. You really think closing a window is an infrequent action? When a window is maximized, the buttons are hidden and revealed when you move the mouse pointer to them. Lesson learned. You talk about over simplifying, but I think you're complicating things. If you aren't able to learn that the window controls are in the upper left corner, then you certainly won't be able to learn how to move windows, open the lenses or mostly anything else. Also, it is very important to remember that this kind of interaction is very common on the web, and that it is the most common thing people use computers for. Frequency is relative. For a person who only surfs the net, they may never close a window. I know people who only understand turning the computer on, clicking on the big blue E and then surfing the net. When they finish they don't close the window, they turn the computer off. Some people I know don't understand about URL's and always search for hotmail or for their website because they don't understand about bookmarks or about how to type in an address. A lot of these people are either over 50 or just never have used computers. There are still a lot of professions that don't require computer use. There are a lot of people both young and old who dont understand computers. This is one reason why Apple has been so successful with the iPhone, it's easy for people to figure out how to do things. you touch an icon or you press the button on the bottom to exit, it's very obvious. I should state clearly that I have as yet not seen the behaviour of the new build (time poor at the moment), I'm only going on screen shots and statements. I'm presuming there are no visual cues that they have been hidden and that is my concern. If there are visual cues and thus making my presumption incorrect, then while I would still be uncomfortable, I don't see any major issue. If however the controls are not visible at all and there are no visual cues then how do they learn that they are there? By randomly moving the mouse around the screen until they see something appear? I assume you're talking about Windows. But why is that so important? I was born in 1980 and when I grew up, we typed cd to switch directory, del to delete files, etc. Well, most users don't interact with their computers that way anymore. We cannot blindly do the same things because that's how they were done in the early days of computing. Most people have probably not even heard of Windows. We shouldn't try to be different for the sake of being different, but we certainly should not limit ourselves from fear of being different either. Again I ask, who is Ubuntu for? When you were born and what you first used has no bearing, I was born in the 60's and started learning on CMP based systems, that has no bearing on this issue at all. Our individual ability to adapt and learn doesn't count because we're in the advanced user class (and we have exposure to many different systems). It's all about who is Ubuntu targeted at and does it meet the needs of those people? If the target audience is
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Den 28. aug. 2011 05:12, skrev James Jenner: On 27 August 2011 13:57, Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com mailto:joerlend.schins...@gmail.com wrote: Den 27. aug. 2011 05:02, skrev James Jenner: I was agreeing with you, not sure why you thought I was not. In regards to my comment on muscle memory, I meant that once it is developed it doesn't matter if they're visible or not. Right, and that was what I reacted to. You don't need to develop any muscle memory. If you hit anywhere on the panel (except the indicators, presently) then the menus and the window buttons are shown. Hitting the top of the screen doesn't qualify as something you need muscle memory for since it doesn't matter how far you move the mouse, as long as you move it forward. While people do need to learn things, you don't try and make it hard for them for no reason other than someone thought hiding buttons makes everything pretty and clean. I would have thought you have dealt with people who are not familiar with computers, I know I have and actions like moving windows is something that they have a hard time to learn. It's not a frequent activity and it's something they generally don't bother doing as they cannot remember how to do it (again based on my observations, but then my work has historically let me interact with a lot of users who are first time users of a computer and in that only when they have to). My assumption is that if people are easily confused, then reducing the number of buttons and menus would reduce the chance of confusion. It also makes it much more comfortable to work with maximized windows, which is -- as you also point out -- becoming common, specially for less experienced users. Comparison to the enter key is not comparing apples to apples. It has correlation in the real world, has text stating it's action and has correlation with early electronic typewriters. This is very different to say, learning how to close a window with the keyboard. Why? Most people I know, haven't got any experience with type writers. It's not obvious to me that a ninety degree angle with a left arrow means you want a new line. It is more obvious that an up arrow means shift, since you're shifting from small to large characters, but it still isn't obvious. Or what about tab? Two arrows pointing to the left and right at a vertical bar? The point, obviously, is that you do need to learn some basic skills in order to interact with the computer and the system. Learning that you can expose extra functionality by moving the pointer to the top of the screen isn't very advanced. I would say that learning to use the mouse buttons are very much more difficult. When do you double click? Why do you never double click on the right button? When do you click the middle button? That _is_ complicated and that's something that's improved rather radically with the indicators. People really appreciate that. Frequency is relative. For a person who only surfs the net, they may never close a window. I know people who only understand turning the computer on, clicking on the big blue E and then surfing the net. When they finish they don't close the window, they turn the computer off. Some people I know don't understand about URL's and always search for hotmail or for their website because they don't understand about bookmarks or about how to type in an address. A lot of these people are either over 50 or just never have used computers. There are still a lot of professions that don't require computer use. There are a lot of people both young and old who dont understand computers. I think that is an excellent reason not to display extra buttons and menus at all times. How often do these people use the menus in the browser? If it isn't needed, don't show it. Microsofts ribbon interface does the exact opposite and I think it's a very bad idea in very many cases. In some cases it might be useful, but in most cases, I think it makes more sense to hide buttons that aren't needed. This is one reason why Apple has been so successful with the iPhone, it's easy for people to figure out how to do things. you touch an icon or you press the button on the bottom to exit, it's very obvious. «...is not comparing apples to apples...» A mobile phone is not the same as a desktop. You generally don't have large applications like LibreOffice or Blender running on it, with hundreds of menu options, etc. I'm not really that impressed by their interface, and I don't think it's just because of it that they're successful. They're masters of the media. For instance, here in Norway, there were three pads on the market before the Ipad were made available. They were being called Ipad competitors a year before Ipad entered the market. That helps. It's not to say that Apples software isn't good. It is. But it is also more than a little overrated. I should state clearly that I have as yet not seen the behaviour
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
I filed this bug report under Unity Shell: https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity-shell/+bug/835822 Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
This conversation seems to be getting out of hand, but I will try to respond to the points that I have input on. Which in the end are fundamentally few in number. I started out commenting on having all the buttons hidden until the mouse was near them. If I misunderstood that or miscommunicated, then my mistake. I have not tested them, because I disliked how unity broke ffm and turned it off. So I am simply commenting on the *idea* of hidden buttons that show up when you get near them. That's it. I really hated the hidden menu names for the same reason, so I don't feel the need to try out the same thing on the buttons to discuss it. If it is just impossible to discuss this topic without installing it and trying it, then I'll just stop posting and let others argue about it. Anyway, some more comments below: On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 03:28:12 +0200 Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: The reason I like them is because I look at them before I move the mouse and aim the mouse at the one I want to click. That's what I'm trying to understand. I have been using a mouse since I was about nine, and that means 22 years of experience. I have never been able to hit those buttons directly without slowing down from a distance greater than a few centimeters. And now that it has become so very much easier to hit those buttons... Why are you complaining now? I have never had any trouble hitting the three buttons on any OS I have used regardless of placement (after a brief time getting used to the general location). I am not sure where you got the idea I that I was complaining about them being in the corner. I also did a test with my eyes closed, just to see how much it affected me not being able to see the buttons as all. I was able to hit the close button 8 of 10 times when I had my eyes closed. I'd say the speed was about the same. What about the maximize button? Or the minimize button? Why the focus on the close button? That's the easiest one anyway (if it's in the corner and the others are next to it). Wait for the buttons? Then you must have super-human eyes and brain, or an extremely very slow computer. I cannot tell how quickly it happens, because I don't have super-human eyes. Does it matter if you wait 5 or 30ms? That's obviously not a valid argument. That's the part that I think you are are missing. I aim at things I can see, not locations I have learned. The wait after the corner for me would not be waiting for the buttons, but waiting for me to identify where the one i want is. Normally I do that step while moving the mouse, so it takes no extra time. Well. If it's such great concern, then there's always other shells or even operating systems. I may have to do that, but I will be sad about it. I liked Ubuntu a lot up until I tried Unity for awhile. I went back to Classic, and am just hoping that the next version of Unity works for me. Which is why I signed up for this list in the first place. But I haven't been able to find any real, unbiased, person who has any complaints about it. I haven't found any arguments here either, except for yours; I don't like it. I most certainly am biased by what works for me. Part of my job is designing interfaces, and I am quite familiar with what causes me to stumble. So if everyone else should do it a different way than I (and some of them) prefer, and Ubuntu forces us to do it that other way, then so be it. I will switch. Yes, but from what you're saying I don't think you've tested it yourself, much less tested it on others. For instance, we've never before had the buttons in the corner. I may have missed something in this thread, since the posts are so long, but being in the corner is not really helpful to me. If I can see them, it hardly matters to me where they are. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Really, I don't agree with hidding window controls. It's really ***not*** necessary and will cause more confusion with Unity to new users. I understand the idea, but really there is ***enough*** space on the screen to have the window controls that are really necessary! Sorry, but Unity needs an UI specialist urgently! I'm sure that the idea is to make Unity more *intuitive*, not more confusing!! (Even if making more intuitive means sacrifice some of efficiency) 2011/8/26 Kévin PEIGNOT winniemie...@gmail.com I agree, there is not real need for it I think Kevin 2011/8/26 Roland Taylor rolandi...@gmail.com Shouldn't the Dash only use the close and maximize buttons? IMHO the maximize button should invoke both resizing actions, eliminating the need for the minimize button (since the Dash cannot be minimized like a window). Apart from that, the minimize button incurs extra movement, and is also a bit confusing (I was confused by it myself and was clicking the maximize button to return the Dash to normal size). __**_ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/**ListHelphttps://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Envoyé depuis gmail, via Firefox 5 sur Ubuntu 11.04 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
2011/8/27 André Oliva gandreol...@gmail.com: Really, I don't agree with hidding window controls. It's really ***not*** necessary and will cause more confusion with Unity to new users. I understand the idea, but really there is ***enough*** space on the screen to have the window controls that are really necessary! Sorry, but Unity needs an UI specialist urgently! I'm sure that the idea is to make Unity more *intuitive*, not more confusing!! (Even if making more intuitive means sacrifice some of efficiency) You don't present a single argument. In what way is it confusing? Since the buttons are always in the upper-left corner, you can't miss them. And you need to learn that once, just like you need to learn that you can click on the File-label in order to present a menu. Because that is not intuitive at all, but people have still been able to learn that it will open a menu when clicked. People aren't stupid and it is important to respect that and provide a user interface that is comfortable to work with. The less clutter, the better. And since it is completely impossible to click those buttons when the mouse isn't hovering over them, there is absolutely no need to display them all the time. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
On 27 August 2011 12:11, Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.comwrote: You don't present a single argument. In what way is it confusing? Since the buttons are always in the upper-left corner, you can't miss them. And you need to learn that once, just like you need to learn that you can click on the File-label in order to present a menu. Because that is not intuitive at all, but people have still been able to learn that it will open a menu when clicked. People aren't stupid and it is important to respect that and provide a user interface that is comfortable to work with. The less clutter, the better. And since it is completely impossible to click those buttons when the mouse isn't hovering over them, there is absolutely no need to display them all the time. I agree with you in regards to people learning the behaviour of the application, people are not stupid and they will learn how to do certain activities. This is partly the building of the mental model and partly muscle memory. However I disagree with your comment since it is completely impossible to click those buttons when the mouse isn't hovering over them, there is absolutely no need to display them all the time. I don't agree because hidden options are hard for new users to learn. How do they learn about the hidden activities? How are they reminded how to do the hidden activities? A better comparison would be with keyboard shortcuts that are not advertised via menus. How do people learn about them and how do people get prompted to assist in recalling how to do those activities? Scroll bars are another good example. Of course the actions for a window are generic to all platforms, and I would have to agree that a user would search for the controls. Though it's also possible that a user would not think to move the mouse over the border to try and find hidden controls, just like some feedback where people get confused by the changes in the scroll bars. I think while simplifying the User Interface is a good thing, I think over simplifying it to the point that a lot of the user interaction is hidden and not obvious is a bad thing. The less infrequent the interaction, the bigger the risk of a large cost to a user when they try to do an infrequent activity. Just because an interaction isn't frequent doesn't mean that hiding how you do that interaction is a good thing. A lot of these changes have a big impact to different groups of people. To me there should be some investigation of users who are novices to computers (none or virtually no experience with windows), experienced with windows on a daily basis but not 'power users', power users of windows. This is of course presuming that a lot of take-up of ubuntu is either people with low end hardware and/or not a lot of money or are from a windows background. James Jenner. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Den 27. aug. 2011 05:02, skrev James Jenner: I agree with you in regards to people learning the behaviour of the application, people are not stupid and they will learn how to do certain activities. This is partly the building of the mental model and partly muscle memory. I don't understand that. By moving the buttons to the corner, it is very easy to hit. Hiding the buttons do not in any way impact muscle memory. However I disagree with your comment since it is completely impossible to click those buttons when the mouse isn't hovering over them, there is absolutely no need to display them all the time. I don't agree because hidden options are hard for new users to learn. How do they learn about the hidden activities? How are they reminded how to do the hidden activities? A better comparison would be with keyboard shortcuts that are not advertised via menus. How do people learn about them and how do people get prompted to assist in recalling how to do those activities? Scroll bars are another good example. Well. How do people learn how to move windows? How do they learn how to press enter in order to get a new line? There are things you need to learn when using a computer. Assuming otherwise, is not constructive. People learn these things because they use their computers. Of course the actions for a window are generic to all platforms, and I would have to agree that a user would search for the controls. Though it's also possible that a user would not think to move the mouse over the border to try and find hidden controls, just like some feedback where people get confused by the changes in the scroll bars. I think while simplifying the User Interface is a good thing, I think over simplifying it to the point that a lot of the user interaction is hidden and not obvious is a bad thing. The less infrequent the interaction, the bigger the risk of a large cost to a user when they try to do an infrequent activity. Just because an interaction isn't frequent doesn't mean that hiding how you do that interaction is a good thing. You really think closing a window is an infrequent action? When a window is maximized, the buttons are hidden and revealed when you move the mouse pointer to them. Lesson learned. You talk about over simplifying, but I think you're complicating things. If you aren't able to learn that the window controls are in the upper left corner, then you certainly won't be able to learn how to move windows, open the lenses or mostly anything else. Also, it is very important to remember that this kind of interaction is very common on the web, and that it is the most common thing people use computers for. A lot of these changes have a big impact to different groups of people. To me there should be some investigation of users who are novices to computers (none or virtually no experience with windows), experienced with windows on a daily basis but not 'power users', power users of windows. This is of course presuming that a lot of take-up of ubuntu is either people with low end hardware and/or not a lot of money or are from a windows background. I assume you're talking about Windows. But why is that so important? I was born in 1980 and when I grew up, we typed cd to switch directory, del to delete files, etc. Well, most users don't interact with their computers that way anymore. We cannot blindly do the same things because that's how they were done in the early days of computing. Most people have probably not even heard of Windows. We shouldn't try to be different for the sake of being different, but we certainly should not limit ourselves from fear of being different either. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Den 27. aug. 2011 04:57, skrev Eylem Koca: Just wanted to chime in and say that hiding window control buttons doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is the lack of a throw-the pointer-to-reveal-Dash location on the screen. With current design, you have to aim at the Ubuntu button and click on it. I really really think this makes the Dash too far away from the user; it should be more prominent and accessible. It should be more than yet-another-start-menu. Am I the only one who thinks this way?? I don't think it's important to show the dash by hovering over anything. But how we show the launcher needs to change somewhat. I'm not entirely sure how, but as it currently works, it's not comfortable. I have an idea. How about using the strength of which you press the pointer towards the screen edge to decide how quickly it appears? That is, if you move it slowly towards the edge, then the wait is longer and if you move it quickly towards the edge, then it is displayed immediately. It might even be possible to make it so that really slamming it into the edge would display the dash? The distance would also play a role in this, using the inertia to understand what the user wants. If you only bump into the edge, then that might be because of the way you interact with the window. But if you really slam it from ten centimetres away, then that has to mean you really wanted to hit it. Perhaps it would also make sense to lock the pointer at the top of the launcher when you follow it upwards? That way you could just move the pointer to the left and up in order to hit the button and the effect would be very similar to what we had before. This would be a very unnatural movement if your goal was to close the window, so I don't think this would be disruptive in any way. And of course, you could just move the cursor around the button if you really wanted to get to the controls. If this is done, then the Ubuntu button needs to fill its area so that it becomes easier to hit. Currently it's possible to place the pointer between the Ubuntu button and the panel so that clicks don't have any effect. I actually think the Ubuntu button should fill that space in any case, to show that it is a different button. Best of both worlds? Just a thought. Jo-Erlend Schinstad ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
@Eylem Koca: I also think your way. I disagree with the idea of not having an Ubuntu button on the top panel. User Sashin proposed this as a solution: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/unity-shell/+spec/better-ubuntu-button-bfb(mockup here: https://sites.google.com/site/gandreoliva/hybridbutton ) Really I think its oversimplification of things. Not everyone wants an elementary-style OS GUI, really. Simply there is a limit in simplification of things. I simply don't understand the reason for oversimplification. People simply don't want fullscreen in every application they work. I remember that Unity was first created for space efficiency. But really, there is **a lot** of space now. Why hide important things like window controls and Ubuntu button? Things that are common for a lot of operating systems... 2011/8/26 Jo-Erlend Schinstad joerlend.schins...@gmail.com Den 27. aug. 2011 05:02, skrev James Jenner: I agree with you in regards to people learning the behaviour of the application, people are not stupid and they will learn how to do certain activities. This is partly the building of the mental model and partly muscle memory. I don't understand that. By moving the buttons to the corner, it is very easy to hit. Hiding the buttons do not in any way impact muscle memory. However I disagree with your comment since it is completely impossible to click those buttons when the mouse isn't hovering over them, there is absolutely no need to display them all the time. I don't agree because hidden options are hard for new users to learn. How do they learn about the hidden activities? How are they reminded how to do the hidden activities? A better comparison would be with keyboard shortcuts that are not advertised via menus. How do people learn about them and how do people get prompted to assist in recalling how to do those activities? Scroll bars are another good example. Well. How do people learn how to move windows? How do they learn how to press enter in order to get a new line? There are things you need to learn when using a computer. Assuming otherwise, is not constructive. People learn these things because they use their computers. Of course the actions for a window are generic to all platforms, and I would have to agree that a user would search for the controls. Though it's also possible that a user would not think to move the mouse over the border to try and find hidden controls, just like some feedback where people get confused by the changes in the scroll bars. I think while simplifying the User Interface is a good thing, I think over simplifying it to the point that a lot of the user interaction is hidden and not obvious is a bad thing. The less infrequent the interaction, the bigger the risk of a large cost to a user when they try to do an infrequent activity. Just because an interaction isn't frequent doesn't mean that hiding how you do that interaction is a good thing. You really think closing a window is an infrequent action? When a window is maximized, the buttons are hidden and revealed when you move the mouse pointer to them. Lesson learned. You talk about over simplifying, but I think you're complicating things. If you aren't able to learn that the window controls are in the upper left corner, then you certainly won't be able to learn how to move windows, open the lenses or mostly anything else. Also, it is very important to remember that this kind of interaction is very common on the web, and that it is the most common thing people use computers for. A lot of these changes have a big impact to different groups of people. To me there should be some investigation of users who are novices to computers (none or virtually no experience with windows), experienced with windows on a daily basis but not 'power users', power users of windows. This is of course presuming that a lot of take-up of ubuntu is either people with low end hardware and/or not a lot of money or are from a windows background. I assume you're talking about Windows. But why is that so important? I was born in 1980 and when I grew up, we typed cd to switch directory, del to delete files, etc. Well, most users don't interact with their computers that way anymore. We cannot blindly do the same things because that's how they were done in the early days of computing. Most people have probably not even heard of Windows. We shouldn't try to be different for the sake of being different, but we certainly should not limit ourselves from fear of being different either. Jo-Erlend Schinstad __**_ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/**ListHelphttps://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to :
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
On Tue 23 Aug 2011 04:17:59 BST, Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote: And I don't know if it's intentional, but hiding the window buttons for maximized applications were a really welcome change. Of course, it makes more sense now than it did before, when the dashbutton was on the panel. I really love that! Can we please have that in Unity as well? Yes, it is in trunk and will be available in today's release. -- Neil Jagdish Patel | Technical Lead Desktop Experience Team Canonical 27 Floor, Millbank Tower London SW1P 4QP Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings www.canonical.com ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity2D -- wow! (And hidden window buttons)
Sorry but this is a little off topic: the little arrow pointing to the currently selected lens in that mock looks stupid, why aren't the lenses selected as tabs instead? 2011/8/25 Enrico Carafa irone...@gmail.com I hope that the indicator icons will be like the mockup on the Mark's site. This: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/dash_home_11.10.png Why not the button at top left too. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
