Re: Nude Pinting in Churches
Are the restrictions on images of Shoghi Effendi? Are there any specific reasons given for the restrictions you mention below? -Gilberto On 12/30/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't understand why this is starting to feel like an argument. Dear Gilberto, I'm not sure either. But it is interesting because Judaism and Islam have adopted similar attitudes towards representational art (with some exceptions in each community of course) while Christianity is the odd man out. Yes, though I'm not sure where Nestorian Christianity stands on this. I thought the Bahai faith also had restrictions on images of the Central firgures at least. Do you know what the exact rule is? Is that the only such restriction? There is a painting of the Bab and a couple of photos of Baha'u'llah but Baha'is do not possess copies of these and they view them only on special occasions like pilgrimage. I might add that they are viewed in the Archives Building and there is no ritual or ceremony involved. My recollection is the painting was done by an Armenian Christian in the Persian minature style. As such you don't get a sense of the Bab's distinctive features. I presume you have seen the photo of Baha'u'llah since our enemies have placed it on the internet. We do not depict images of the Manifestations ourself either in art or drama. So if we made a movie of the early days of the Faith it would likely be similiar to the Anthony Quinn movie on Muhammad; i.e. made without depicting Him directly. In regards to Abdu'l-Baha, because He came to America He got photographed and painted a lot. There are some restrictions on distributing paintings of Abdu'l-Baha but I'm not entirely sure how those work, except that a lot of artists have found them to be a headache. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Nude Pinting in Churches
Are the restrictions on images of Shoghi Effendi? Dear Gilberto, I don't think so, but I know the Guardian *really* disliked having his picture taken. I should have added that Baha'is do not protray *any* Manifestation of God. I'm posting the relveant texts below. My impression is that this kind of thing should be avoided because we such protrayals are likely to be idolatrous at one extreme or irreverent at the other. warmest, Susan Your understanding that the portrayal of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh in works of art is forbidden, is correct. The Guardian made it clear that this prohibition refers to all Manifestations of God; photographs, or reproductions of portraits, of the Master may be used in books, but no attempt should be made to portray Him in dramatic or other works where He would be one of the 'dramatic personae'. However, there can be no objection to symbolic representation of such Holy Figures, provided it does not become a ritual and that the symbol used is not irreverent. (From a letter of the Universal House of Justice, December 3, 1972) (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 539) There is no objection that the believers look at the picture of Bahá'u'lláh, but they should do so with the utmost reverence, and should also not allow that it be exposed openly to the public, even in their private homes. (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, December 6, 1939) (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, With reference to your question whether the Figures of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh should be made to appear as characters in dramatic works written by the 98 believers, Shoghi Effendi's opinion is that such an attempt to dramatize the Manifestations would be highly disrespectful, and hence should be avoided by the friends, even in the case of the Master. Besides it would be practically impossible to carry out such a plan faithfully, and in a dignified and befitting manner. (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States and Canada, January 27, 1935) (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 97) As to your question concerning the advisability of dramatizing Bahá'í historic episodes; the Guardian would certainly approve, and even encourage that the friends should engage in such literary pursuits which, no doubt, can be of an immense teaching value. What He wishes the believers to avoid is to dramatize the personages of the Báb, Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá, that is to say to treat them as dramatic figures, as characters appearing on the stage. This, as already pointed out, he feels would be quite disrespectful. The mere fact that they appear on the scene constitutes an act of discourtesy which can in no way be reconciled with Their highly exalted station. Their Message, or actual Words, should be preferably reported and conveyed by Their disciples appearing on the stage. (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 25, 1936) 343. If Light Suggests Personification of the Manifestation, it Should not be Used The use of light, either of great intensity or in different colours, needs your careful consideration. If the use of light in any way at all suggests a personification of the Manifestation of God it should not be used, but if it can be done without in any way giving the impression that the Prophet is being represented or personified then there is no objection to its use. (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, August 12, 1975) 344. Prohibition on Representing Manifestations of God in Paintings or Drawings Applies to all Manifestations The prohibition on representing the Manifestation of God in paintings and drawings or in dramatic presentations applies to all the Manifestations of God. There are, of course, great and wonderful works of art of past Dispensations, 100 many of which portrayed the Manifestations of God in a spirit of reverence and love. In this Dispensation however the greater maturity of mankind and the greater awareness of the relationship between the Supreme Manifestation and His servants enable us to realize the impossibility of representing, in any human form, whether pictorially, in sculpture or in dramatic representation, the Person of God's Manifestations. In stating the Bahá'í prohibition, the beloved Guardian pointed out this impossibility. (From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, March 9, 1977) (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 99) The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and
Nude Pinting in Churches
Dear friends, I am looking for history of coming of nude paintings on the ceilings and walls of Christian churches. When did it begin? What was the social causes of such decision by church leaders? I notice that after 1400 since Islam, still nude pictures are not introduced in Islamic mosques, or is it? All articles, essays, research papers on this topic is highly appreciated with gratitude. Best regards, Max Jasper. [EMAIL PROTECTED] The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Nude Pinting in Churches
I am looking for history of coming of nude paintings on the ceilings and walls of Christian churches. When did it begin? Dear Max, The painiting of nudes began during the Renaissance and was largely an outcome of their misunderstanding of Greek art. As you know, the Renaissance represents an attempt at revival of Greco-Roman culture. For that reason, Greek sculpture was taken as the model for accurately representing the human form. And what Renaissance artists saw of those sculptures were nudes. Thing is, the Greeks clothed and painted their scuplture originally. But the clothing and paint did not survive, leaving only a nude base for our Renaissance artists to emulate. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Nude Pinting in Churches
The original 10 commandments included a prohibition on graven images (clothed or not). Islam has a similar restriction on representational art. I'm not sure about the exact chronology in terms of Christianity but an argument I've read in terms of why they even got into graven images was based on the incarnation. The idea was something like: Since God took on a form, it no longer was prohibited to make images of living things. (But don't quote me). I would have thought that nude images in the West had a revival with the Renaissance as Susan suggests, but this is the first time I'm hearing that Greek statues were actually painted and had clothes. Sounds interesting. Max, do you think nude pictures in mosques would be an example of progress? -Gilberto On 12/29/05, Max Jasper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear friends, I am looking for history of coming of nude paintings on the ceilings and walls of Christian churches. When did it begin? What was the social causes of such decision by church leaders? I notice that after 1400 since Islam, still nude pictures are not introduced in Islamic mosques, or is it? All articles, essays, research papers on this topic is highly appreciated with gratitude. Best regards, Max Jasper. [EMAIL PROTECTED] The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Nude Pinting in Churches
You won't find a human image, clothed or unclothed in a synagogue or mosque because it is not allowed to paint a "likeness" of any actual human, plant or animal.The painting of icons goes back to Greek and Roman traditions before Christ.Regards, ScottMax Jasper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear friends,I am looking for history of coming of nude paintings on the ceilings andwalls of Christian churches. When did it begin? What was the social causesof such decision by church leaders?I notice that after 1400 since Islam, still nude pictures are not introducedin Islamic mosques, or is it?All articles, essays, research papers on this topic is highly appreciatedwith gratitude.Best regards,Max
Jasper.[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Nude Pinting in Churches
The original 10 commandments included a prohibition on graven images (clothed or not). Islam has a similar restriction on representational art. Dear Gilberto, The prohibition on graven images was never absolute. The Ark of the Covenant, for instance, had golden cherubim on each end, this according to Biblical instructions. I'm not sure about the exact chronology in terms of Christianity but an argument I've read in terms of why they even got into graven images was based on the incarnation. The idea was something like: Since God took on a form, it no longer was prohibited to make images of living things. (But don't quote me). There were differences within the church on this issue which took the form of the iconoclastic debate which was going full speed at the time Islam began to move into the former territories of the Roman Empire. Syrian Christians opposed icons of any kind. The Greek church approved of icons in the form of paintings. Only the Western church (later Roman Catholic) had no problems with statues either. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Nude Pinting in Churches
On 12/29/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The original 10 commandments included a prohibition on graven images (clothed or not). Islam has a similar restriction on representational art. Dear Gilberto, The prohibition on graven images was never absolute. The Ark of the Covenant, for instance, had golden cherubim on each end, this according to Biblical instructions. Sure, but that's the only one of a few exceptions (there was also the bronze snake). Idol-making in other contexts is a VERY serious offense. In orthodox Judaism, one of the three sins a Jew is not supposed to commit, even on pain of death is bowing down to an idol. (Check out the Haunukah story). The prohibition on graven images was serious enough that even the engraved faces on Roman coins made it impermissible to pay donations to the temple in Roman currency (That's why the money-changers were there by the Temple in the first place, when they were cast out by Jesus.) I'm not sure about the exact chronology in terms of Christianity but an argument I've read in terms of why they even got into graven images was based on the incarnation. The idea was something like: Since God took on a form, it no longer was prohibited to make images of living things. (But don't quote me). There were differences within the church on this issue which took the form of the iconoclastic debate which was going full speed at the time Islam began to move into the former territories of the Roman Empire. Syrian Christians opposed icons of any kind. The Greek church approved of icons in the form of paintings. Only the Western church (later Roman Catholic) had no problems with statues either. Sure. The statement in the catechism of the Catholic Church which I alluded to earlier says: 2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new economy of images. And the original commandment: Exodus 20 [4] You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; [5] you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, [6] but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Nude Pinting in Churches
Idol-making in other contexts is a VERY serious offense. Dear Gilberto, Sure idol-making is. But most representational art is not idol-making. Even most religious icons aren't idols. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
