[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
Much depends on your technique and whether you play close to the bridge (as the Old Ones generally seemed to have done) or up to the rose. However whatever tension you decide upon, with such a small instrument why don't you follow historical practice and only lower the first course an octave? The stress of the second course at such a short string length (at , say, A 415) is well below breaking stress. MH --- On Wed, 10/8/11, David Smith d...@dolcesfogato.com wrote: From: David Smith d...@dolcesfogato.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Lute Strings for theorbo To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 10 August, 2011, 18:22 Greetings, I have a Barber and Harris Lesser French Theorbo with 14 strings (7x1 and 7x1) with lengths of 760mm and 1400mm. The 7 diapasons are gut but the other are carbon fiber and silver wrapped. I bought the instrument used and would like to convert to all gut. I have looked at Arto's string calculator and am stumped as to what I should use for the tension on the strings. The I am not sure what the current set of gut diapasons are either. So a couple of questions: 1. Should I replace all the strings in order to get the correct balance on the instrument? 2. What tension for the strings should I be looking for? 3. Is the best approach to just go to Aquila or Gamut and ask them to figure it out? I would appreciate any guidance I can get. I have read through some of the other discussions but have not come to enough understanding to know how to proceed. Thank you in advance. Regards David -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo To: Taco Walstra wals...@science.uva.nl Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 11:16 There are non-English sources which describe theorbos with only the first course an octave down - see the late Bob Spencer's paper in Early Music: still probably the best summary of the instrument and its tuning. The tiorbino is tuned an octave higher than the tiorba so naturally the string stress on the second course would exceed breaking stress if not lowered the octave. What/where are these small theorbos tuned in Dm? Or are you thinking that mid/late 18th century 13 course Dm lutes with an extension for 5 doubled bass courses should be called theorbos? I presume a theorbo is generally acquired to play continuo. However if you only intend to play the relatively few solos extant then a small theorbo of this size with both top courses an octave down would indeed be following a known historical practise (Talbot Ms 'pour pieces') but, of course, in this case it would be pitched a fourth higher (re Talbot) in a nominal d - not the usual A. MH --- On Thu, 11/8/11, Taco Walstra wals...@science.uva.nl wrote: From: Taco Walstra wals...@science.uva.nl Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, lute net l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 8:57 Playing close to the bridge is a story in itself. It's not proved that it was common practice on theorbo. It's logical however, but playing with nails was perhaps also used, or both. What you call historical practice... only lower the first course... was the tuning used on an english theorbo, not the standard theorbo. Historical practice was tuning small theorbos in dm, although even this is not very certain (it's mostly based on a few examples, like the pieces by visee which exist in staff notation and theorbo tablature). Even the small tiorbino usied in the italian Castaldi music has the 2 top course reentrant, if I remember well. But what is the problem with the second course? As you can see in the list by David he uses 0.78 mm. that's not 0.36 or whatever. with archlutes in G you encounter such problems, not theorbos. If you use a theorbo only for continuo playing, your advice can be a good idea, but I assume that David Smith will surely like to play Visee and other beautiful solomusic, which is problematic when you do this. Taco On 08/11/2011 09:30 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Much depends on your technique and whether you play close to the bridge (as the Old Ones generally seemed to have done) or up to the rose. However whatever tension you decide upon, with such a small instrument why don't you follow historical practice and only lower the first course an octave? The stress of the second course at such a short string length (at , say, A 415) is well below breaking stress. MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
Dear Taco, Thank you for this: I hope you will not mind me continuing since this matter of theorbo sizes still seems to be an area of misunderstanding. Incidentally, I'd be interested to know what I said which is 'not very logical' as you put it. . I raised the question of the tiorbino since you seemed to mention it as an example of a small theorbo which had both upper courses at the lower octave without seeming to realise that the tiorbino is tuned an octave higher than the theorbo thus obliging both upper courses to be lowered the octave. The small French theorbo developed for solo pieces (in D tuning - re Talbot for 'les pieces') is tuned a fourth higher than the common A theorbo tuning - are you recommending that all these small theorboes (say, around 76cm fingered string length) should be tuned like this rather than in a nominal A (or G) with just the first course an octave down? Regarding solo theorbo music: Mathias Roesel has quite rightly already pointed out that the de Saizeny Ms requires a theorbo in nominal A; as does, I might also add, the fine Ms Paris BN B1575 containing 101 folios of music for solo theorbo. Thus a theorbo in nominal D, as you seem to advocate, isn't specified for this solo music. MH From: Taco Walstra wals...@science.uva.nl Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, 'baroque Lutelist' baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 12:17 On 08/11/2011 12:24 PM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: There are non-English sources which describe theorbos with only the first course an octave down - see the late Bob Spencer's paper in Early Music: still probably the best summary of the instrument and its tuning. Yes I know that excellent article. But you were recommending something which is not very logical for somebody who starts playing theorbo and only solomusic... The tiorbino is tuned an octave higher than the tiorba so naturally the string stress on the second course would exceed breaking stress if not lowered the octave. Perhaps to be a bit more clear: I didn't recommend tuning up the second course. What/where are these small theorbos tuned in Dm? Or are you thinking that mid/late 18th century 13 course Dm lutes with an extension for 5 doubled bass courses should be called theorbos? true. I should have written d instead of dm. Dm normally gives the impression that a baroque lute tuning is meant, but that's something different. I was speaking on a theorbe des pieces which was tuned a quarter higher than his big brother and of course 2 reentrant strings. taco From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo To: Taco Walstra [2]wals...@science.uva.nl Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 11:16 There are non-English sources which describe theorbos with only the first course an octave down - see the late Bob Spencer's paper in Early Music: still probably the best summary of the instrument and its tuning. The tiorbino is tuned an octave higher than the tiorba so naturally the string stress on the second course would exceed breaking stress if not lowered the octave. What/where are these small theorbos tuned in Dm? Or are you thinking that mid/late 18th century 13 course Dm lutes with an extension for 5 doubled bass courses should be called theorbos? I presume a theorbo is generally acquired to play continuo. However if you only intend to play the relatively few solos extant then a small theorbo of this size with both top courses an octave down would indeed be following a known historical practise (Talbot Ms 'pour pieces') but, of course, in this case it would be pitched a fourth higher (re Talbot) in a nominal d - not the usual A. MH From: Taco Walstra [3]wals...@science.uva.nl Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, lute net [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 8:57 Playing close to the bridge is a story in itself. It's not proved that it was common practice on theorbo. It's logical however, but playing with nails was perhaps also used, or both. What you call historical practice... only lower the first course... was the tuning used on an english theorbo, not the standard theorbo. Historical practice was tuning small theorbos in dm, although even this is not very certain (it's mostly based on a few examples, like the pieces by visee which exist in staff notation and theorbo tablature). Even
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
On Aug 11, 2011, at 6:04 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: this matter of theorbo sizes still seems to be an area of misunderstanding. True, but we like you anyway. BTW, I recently saw Toy Story 3 with my family, and heartily recommend it. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
Well, dear Howard, I think we know your own view from much earlier exchanges. Is it that any size of theorbo would have had the top two courses an octave down since there was a wide range of Church pitches at the time? Thus somehow justifying modern theorboes in A with a string length in the mid 70s having both course one and two an octave down - even at A415 or A440 .. Or perhaps I misunderstood you - I'm sure you'll tell me and give the evidence if so. MH PS Did the film contain any theorbos fitting to its title? -- On Thu, 11/8/11, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo To: Lute Dmth l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, baroque Lutelist baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 11 August, 2011, 15:39 On Aug 11, 2011, at 6:04 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: this matter of theorbo sizes still seems to be an area of misunderstanding. True, but we like you anyway. BTW, I recently saw Toy Story 3 with my family, and heartily recommend it. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
Howard, --- On Thu, 8/11/11, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: BTW, I recently saw Toy Story 3 with my family, and heartily recommend it. -- I too saw Toy Story 3 and enjoyed it. There were no theorbos in the movie, but if there were, only a fool would disagree that they would certainly have had only the top string reentrant or been pitched in D. ;-) Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:28:30 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Wilke wrote Howard, --- On Thu, 8/11/11, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: BTW, I recently saw Toy Story 3 with my family, and heartily recommend it. -- I too saw Toy Story 3 and enjoyed it. There were no theorbos in the movie, but if there were, only a fool would disagree that they would certainly have had only the top string reentrant or been pitched in D. ;-) Not even a toy theorbo (i.e. string length 80 cm)? Cheers RalfD Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
I'm not a theorbist, so I can't speak from experience, however could some analogy shed some light on this? There are extent Italian theorbos, some with string lengths in the mid to late 70s some in the mid 80s and some in the 90s Similarly there are extent Italian 'renaissance' lutes with a range of string lengths which Ray Nurse saw as representing related pitches as per viol consorts - treble, alto, tenor and bass lutes. Though I'm not suggesting the idea of a consort of theorbos playing together! Is it realistic to think that the 70s theorbo found its way to France where it was deemed suitable 'pour les pieces'.perhaps more suitable than an 80s theorbo? Then we have to travel back from Talbot with his Lesser French Theorbo tuned in D and hypothesise that its relative pitch had travelled over to France with the instrument in the first place. Is the solo repertory readily playable on theorbos with a string length in the mid 80s?. Our ancestors were not necessarily giants. Might (amateur) players have chosen an instrument that suited their hand size. And I suspect there must have been at least some amateur theorbo players, judging by the number of late 17th and early 18thc publications where theorbo is cited as a continuo instrument. A theorbo in D strikes me as a useful instrument for continuo in a chamber context with it's lowest course at 'cello C. Best wishes Chris From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of R. Mattes [r...@mh-freiburg.de] Sent: 11 August 2011 16:33 To: Christopher Wilke; Lute Dmth; baroque Lutelist; howard posner Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo On Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:28:30 -0700 (PDT), Christopher Wilke wrote Howard, --- On Thu, 8/11/11, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: BTW, I recently saw Toy Story 3 with my family, and heartily recommend it. -- I too saw Toy Story 3 and enjoyed it. There were no theorbos in the movie, but if there were, only a fool would disagree that they would certainly have had only the top string reentrant or been pitched in D. ;-) Not even a toy theorbo (i.e. string length 80 cm)? Cheers RalfD Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo
Hi David, Thank you so much for the suggestions. I will greatly appreciate your perspective and experience. I love the sound of the instrument but do have a bias toward warmth as opposed to punch. This is exactly the type of response I was hoping to get. It is a new experience - going from renaissance lute to theorbo. It is teaching me all kinds of new things about left hand technique and how to use my right hand thumb. It has been fun! Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David van Ooijen Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 10:54 AM To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Lute Strings for theorbo David I play a SS theorbo like yours: 76/140cm, build for me in 1988. Current set-up is 6+8. First two strings re-entrant, tuned in a. 415/440 as required with the same set of strings. I've had all sorts of tensions over the years, but this is what it is at the moment: All-gut, obviously. 76cm 1 = a 0.62mm 2 = e 0.78mm 3 = b 0.58mm 4 = g 0.66mm 5 = d 0.88mm 6 = A 1.16mm 140mm 7 = G 0.74mm 8 = F 0.82mm 9 = E 0.86mm 10 = D 0.97mm 11 = C 1.09mm 12 = B1 1.14mm 13 = A1 1.28mm 14 = G1 1.44mm (Or the nearest available diameter, of course.) Strings 1 to 5 are plain gut by any maker. 6 is a bit of a bother, but I'm reasonably happy with Aquila's loaded gut at the moment. Strings 7 to 14 are Gamut Diapassons, the best I've played so far, but fret gut will do if in trouble (still better than nylgut ;-). I used to play it with a much higher string tension, but have gone down over the years: less punch and more resonance, less metallic sound and more warmth. It would be nice to have the instrument in balance: top set in a tension that is comparable to the diapassons. If you like the tension of what you're having on the instrument now, just replace the top seven strings. The carbon you can measure. There are lists around (or ask this list) that translate carbon diameters to comparable gut diameters. If you ever decide to change to a different tension, you'll be able to reuse most of your diapassons by moving them up a place, and just buy the missing one string. No need to replace good diapasson, and some of these thick basses get better over time anyway. On a side-note. I've noticed string makers tend to advice rather high string tensions. Better ask a player. I'm sure the string makers know best at what tension their strings give optimum performance, but I think players tend to give a more informed, and more varied!, answer to the question of ideal string tension for actual playing. enjoy your new toy! David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 10 August 2011 19:22, David Smith d...@dolcesfogato.com wrote: Greetings, I have a Barber and Harris Lesser French Theorbo with 14 strings (7x1 and 7x1) with lengths of 760mm and 1400mm. The 7 diapasons are gut but the other are carbon fiber and silver wrapped. I bought the instrument used and would like to convert to all gut. I have looked at Arto's string calculator and am stumped as to what I should use for the tension on the strings. The I am not sure what the current set of gut diapasons are either. So a couple of questions: 1. Should I replace all the strings in order to get the correct balance on the instrument? 2. What tension for the strings should I be looking for? 3. Is the best approach to just go to Aquila or Gamut and ask them to figure it out? I would appreciate any guidance I can get. I have read through some of the other discussions but have not come to enough understanding to know how to proceed. Thank you in advance. Regards David -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
