[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ?
Thanks Markus, it did go astray. - Original Message - From: Markus Lutz mar...@gmlutz.de To: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 4:32 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ? Hi Arthur, seems as if this email should be send to the baroque lute list, isn't it? Best regards Markus Am 05.03.2011 06:08, schrieb A. J. Ness: - Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke[1]chriswi...@yahoo.com To: wikla[2]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi; A. J. Ness [3]arthurjn...@verizon.net Cc: Charles Browne[4]char...@brownecowie.fsnet.co.uk; Baroque Lute List[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 5:14 PM Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ? Arthur, --- On Fri, 3/4/11, A. J. Ness[6]arthurjn...@verizon.net wrote: By the way, did you notice that the Lachrimae motive is sounded in tghe lower line at the beginnig of Gallot's L'Amat malheureux (No. 98)? Weiss also made an arrangement of that piece. It just so happens that in a few hours I'll be giving my doctoral lecture recital at Eastman. The topic is Weiss's use of timbre and I discuss these versions in my presentation. AJN Good luck! How I wish I could be there to hear you talk and play. I once planned a talk on L'Amat malheureux, but someone else on the program chose the same topic, so I had to move on. to something else. It wanted to relate it to the lament. Anyway best of luck with your lecture this evening. In Kilbourne Hall? (You know I studied at Eastman.) Opps! I meant to send this yesterday afternoon. I am certain your presentation was a wonderful success. I hope you will write it up for the Lute Society of America Quarterly, or its Journal. I think this amply demonstrates why Arto is calling for more uniformity in naming as well as connecting names with catalog numbers. There is the version of L'Amant Malheureux in London with the number LbmI, which is easy enough to find. AJN Don't let me get started it's too close to dinner. But the careless naming lute manuscripts is one of my pet peeves. And I join Arto in his complaints. Too often the names are not chosen correctly, and the incorrect name results in misunderstandings about the nature of the works contained within the manuscript. You'll have to let me leave a list of examples for later. I was discussing the topic with Steve Immel (proprietor of Old Music and Incunabula) at the recent annual meeting of the Music Library Association in Philadelphia. And I purchased a facsimile of other half of a misnamed lute manuscript, the Nauclerus Lute Book. Not to be mistaken for the Bakfark-Nauclerus Manucript which is misnamed.g P.S. recte Bakfark-Nauclerus Codex AJNThe Bakfark-Nauclerus manuscript has pieces attributed to VB (concordances show it is Valentin Bakfark) and MN, which the person naming the manuscript thought to be M. Nauclerus, because one pieces seems to read M. Naucl. But it read Neud, an abbreviation for Neusidler, whose authorship of the pieces attr. to MN can be confirmed through concordances as Melchior News idler (son, not brother of Hans N.). But then there is the version in g minor in PnVmc61. This is the so-called Paris manuscript. Not just the Paris manuscript, the Paris Thibault manuscript. Not just the Paris Thibault manuscript, ONE of the Paris Thibault manuscripts. I can't recall which volume number off the top of my head even though I've recently researched it. This number is of course not connected with its current catalog number. AJN I have a guide to the Thibault manucripts on my web site. [7]http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/thibault.html There are also the two versions (allemande en double and gigue) in ROI. The Deutsche Lautengelsellschaft recently published this as the Rohrau manuscript, but in English we're apparently calling it Harrach I and II. Tim Crawford has an excellent discussion of this source in a recent LSA Journal. This is not to be confused (but undoubtedly will be by some) with the already known Harrach manuscript in New York. AJNThe Pachelbel works in Nuremberg are also from Harrach, I believe, as well as sinfonias /concertinos in pitch notatoin that Bob Spencer owned. One is on my web site: [8]http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/sinfonia.ht ml Regards, Arthur. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [9]www.christopherwilke.com -- References 1. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 3. mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net 4. mailto:char...@brownecowie.fsnet.co.uk 5. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net 7
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ?
Dear baroque lutenists, I erred: I have the Lei.II.6.24 by Tree Edition - fantastic collection - but not the Lei.II.6.14. In the cataloque of Tree there is also Lei.III.11.26, but I cannot find the Lei.II.6.14 there? What and where could it be? Could CNRS perhaps call some part of the 24 by 14? Arto On 04/03/11 00:00, wikla wrote: Well, thanks Charles, this is just what I meant! I do _have_ this Tree Edition facsimile!! Just the number of names and codes are confusing! Now I know where to find the versions to compare with the ms. Barbe, which is also called by name Rés. Vmb. ms. 7... Somebody should collect and map all the names of this ocean of names of these wonderful manuscripts! Arto On Thu, 3 Mar 2011 22:50:40 +0100 (CET), Charles Browne char...@brownecowie.fsnet.co.uk wrote: Arto, there is a Tree Edition facsimile of this MS - Leipzig II.6.14 printed in 1999 Charles Message Received: Mar 03 2011, 09:43 PM From: wikla To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ? Dear b-lutenists, in the CNRS Gallot book there is reference to ms. Lei. II 6 14. Is there any other name or link to that ms.? Or perhaps even a Peter Steur code and link? thanks in advance... Arto PS I have an idea that Gallot is an interesting composer... ;) PS2 These multiple names and codes of mss. can be confusing... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ?
I erred: I have the Lei.II.6.24 by Tree Edition - fantastic collection - but not the Lei.II.6.14. In the cataloque of Tree there is also Lei.III.11.26, but I cannot find the Lei.II.6.14 there? Tree edition has it - and I have it from them. It is almost all Gallot, see: http://w1.bnu.fr/smt/d.htm The II.6.24 is something different, Peter has it here: http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?ms=D-LEm6-24id=2type=mslang=deu I find that we all should get the RISM for free from the UN Lute High Commissioner. B To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ?
I agree 200 percent Bernd ;-) Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 04-03-2011, 11:58:11 == I find that we all should get the RISM for free from the UN Lute High Commissioner. B To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ?
Perhaps we have already something: http://opac.rism.info/index.php and in English, too http://opac.rism.info/index.php?id=2L=1 The main page http://www.rism.info/ Or what is this? Arto On 04/03/11 14:24, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: I agree 200 percent Bernd ;-) Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 04-03-2011, 11:58:11 == I find that we all should get the RISM for free from the UN Lute High Commissioner. B To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ?
Nice, but, The main page http://www.rism.info/ Or what is this? I cite: The information in Series B and C is still only available in book form. And Boetticher is the the B series, I think :)) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ?
Hello Arto, Critical editions of lute music, such as those published by CNRS in the Corpus des Luthistes Français, often have an elaborate critical apparatus that calls for much use of abbreviations, which are always resolved somewhere in the book. The abbreviations about which you inquire start on page XXV of the Gallot edition. The ones you mention refer to a pair of manuscripts in the Musik Bibliothek der Stadt Leipzig (Lei.): Ms. II. 6. 14 and Ms. II. 6. 24. By the way, did you notice that the Lachrimae motive is sounded in tghe lower line at the beginnig of Gallot's L'Amat malheureux (No. 98)? Weiss also made an arrangement of that piece. Several volumes of RISM are described briefly on the Finding Tools list on Wayne's Lute Page: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/Sources.html RISM BVII mentioned in SMT refers to Wolfgang Boetticher's inventory of manuscript lute and guitar tablatures, listed there also with some warnings. His entries are often faulty and sometimes contain very little useful information (e.g., extensive lists of pages and folios that are blank in the manuscript; few composers given, unless mentioned on the titlepage). Sometimes manuscrpts are moved, and Boetticher doesn't realize what happened and the descriptions are different for the same manuscript. Here is a good overall summary of the types of music and music literature inventoried in RISM. It's amazing what it covers! For example, manuscripts of Persian music, or Ancient Greek Music Theory Writings (by . . . Tom Mathiesen--'member him?g). As well as the usual stuff, of course. http://hcl.harvard.edu/libraries/loebmusic/isham/rism.cfm#rism Arthur. - Original Message - From: wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: Charles Browne char...@brownecowie.fsnet.co.uk; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 3:42 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ? Dear baroque lutenists, I erred: I have the Lei.II.6.24 by Tree Edition - fantastic collection - but not the Lei.II.6.14. In the cataloque of Tree there is also Lei.III.11.26, but I cannot find the Lei.II.6.14 there? What and where could it be? Could CNRS perhaps call some part of the 24 by 14? Arto On 04/03/11 00:00, wikla wrote: Well, thanks Charles, this is just what I meant! I do _have_ this Tree Edition facsimile!! Just the number of names and codes are confusing! Now I know where to find the versions to compare with the ms. Barbe, which is also called by name Rés. Vmb. ms. 7... Somebody should collect and map all the names of this ocean of names of these wonderful manuscripts! Arto On Thu, 3 Mar 2011 22:50:40 +0100 (CET), Charles Browne char...@brownecowie.fsnet.co.uk wrote: Arto, there is a Tree Edition facsimile of this MS - Leipzig II.6.14 printed in 1999 Charles Message Received: Mar 03 2011, 09:43 PM From: wikla To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ? Dear b-lutenists, in the CNRS Gallot book there is reference to ms. Lei. II 6 14. Is there any other name or link to that ms.? Or perhaps even a Peter Steur code and link? thanks in advance... Arto PS I have an idea that Gallot is an interesting composer... ;) PS2 These multiple names and codes of mss. can be confusing... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ?
Yay … ! Mat -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Gesendet: Freitag, 4. März 2011 13:44 An: Jean-Marie Poirier Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ? Perhaps we have already something: http://opac.rism.info/index.php and in English, too http://opac.rism.info/index.php?id=2L=1 The main page http://www.rism.info/ Or what is this? Arto On 04/03/11 14:24, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: I agree 200 percent Bernd ;-) Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 04-03-2011, 11:58:11 == I find that we all should get the RISM for free from the UN Lute High Commissioner. B To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ?
Any hope or/and info of the series B and Botticher being web-published? Arto On Fri, 4 Mar 2011 14:53:44 +0100, Bernd Haegemann b...@symbol4.de wrote: Nice, but, The main page http://www.rism.info/ Or what is this? I cite: The information in Series B and C is still only available in book form. And Boetticher is the the B series, I think :)) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ?
Arthur, --- On Fri, 3/4/11, A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net wrote: By the way, did you notice that the Lachrimae motive is sounded in tghe lower line at the beginnig of Gallot's L'Amat malheureux (No. 98)? Weiss also made an arrangement of that piece. It just so happens that in a few hours I'll be giving my doctoral lecture recital at Eastman. The topic is Weiss's use of timbre and I discuss these versions in my presentation. I think this amply demonstrates why Arto is calling for more uniformity in naming as well as connecting names with catalog numbers. There is the version of L'Amant Malheureux in London with the number LbmI, which is easy enough to find. But then there is the version in g minor in PnVmc61. This is the so-called Paris manuscript. Not just the Paris manuscript, the Paris Thibault manuscript. Not just the Paris Thibault manuscript, ONE of the Paris Thibault manuscripts. I can't recall which volume number off the top of my head even though I've recently researched it. This number is of course not connected with its current catalog number. There are also the two versions (allemande en double and gigue) in ROI. The Deutsche Lautengelsellschaft recently published this as the Rohrau manuscript, but in English we're apparently calling it Harrach I and II. Tim Crawford has an excellent discussion of this source in a recent LSA Journal. This is not to be confused (but undoubtedly will be by some) with the already known Harrach manuscript in New York. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ?
Well, thanks Charles, this is just what I meant! I do _have_ this Tree Edition facsimile!! Just the number of names and codes are confusing! Now I know where to find the versions to compare with the ms. Barbe, which is also called by name Rés. Vmb. ms. 7... Somebody should collect and map all the names of this ocean of names of these wonderful manuscripts! Arto On Thu, 3 Mar 2011 22:50:40 +0100 (CET), Charles Browne char...@brownecowie.fsnet.co.uk wrote: Arto, there is a Tree Edition facsimile of this MS - Leipzig II.6.14 printed in 1999 Charles Message Received: Mar 03 2011, 09:43 PM From: wikla To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ? Dear b-lutenists, in the CNRS Gallot book there is reference to ms. Lei. II 6 14. Is there any other name or link to that ms.? Or perhaps even a Peter Steur code and link? thanks in advance... Arto PS I have an idea that Gallot is an interesting composer... ;) PS2 These multiple names and codes of mss. can be confusing... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
