date:20030109

A case in point: You apply for a job with  fairly conventional 
non-profit that does good work but doesn't think outside of the box. 
They are very impressed with your accomplishments, so, since they are 
office workers and have nothing else to do, they pound your name into 
google to see if they can see picture of you doing the stuff you do 
so well. Completely unexpectedly, they discover that you stuff poop 
into cow horns, believe in astrology, hate Monsanto and question the 
policies of the elected government. (And, in my case, forward 
pornography and use Anglo-Saxon phrases quite often)

Being a farmer is questionable enough these days. (Please note the 
FBI post I put up here a couple of days ago.) MANY people I talk to 
at conferences have told me that they do not want to associate their 
names with their ideas in such a public place.

This is a different form of self-protection than what you fear is 
undoable. We can buffer ourselves in this fashion.

My primary goal is to make people comfortable to share their 
experiences and feelings with each other.

-Allan


I'm not sure of the difference between member oriented and 
public archive. Would this require registration/password or a 
membership fee?

How do we protect ourselves from all this anyways, unless you're 
going to totally subvert your personality i.e. never say what you 
think, don't buy any books or magazines or use websites that aren't 
govt. approved and for heaven's sake, don't go to a peace rally, 
they're filming you. (I actually got videotaped at a pitiful little 
fishermen's rights protest - they were ten of us, including my 
dog.)

Some posting reticence may come from lack of BD experience. And I 
guess some of us are questioners and some are sponges.

Nancy G.


__
The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! 
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at 
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Re: Personal Security vs National Security

Apart from public exposure, what difference would it make?   Any costs
involved?   What changes in mode, etc?   And is it feasible, or would it
involve too much work organising the change?I guess not, or you
wouldn't be suggesting it.
Helen


I'm very not comfortable with YahooGroups, for reasons mentioned and others.

What I would like to do is keep the archives here and physically 
dispense them on a quarterly basis. The archives would not be 
available to lurkers, only to posters. CD-Rom is the appropriate way 
to go. These could be sent out at cost, etc. Each CD could be 
cumultive, and so on.

I'll also move to have the earlier archives expunged.

What say?

-Allan

RE: Personal Security vs National Security

Dear Zoran -

I'm not trying to solve the larger issues, just trying to create
privacy from unintentional eavesdropping so that members of the list
feel more comfortable sharing.

The archives, incidentally, did not appear accidentally. They were
requested back in the early days, back when some people couldn't
spare the disk space to spool a group as active as BD Now! on a
regular basis.

-Allan



I think it will be too naïve to think that something on internet could
be private. By making it private - for members eyes only, You do not
solve the real problem and that is that someone has right to prevent
Your free access to public property.

Regards

Zoran

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

Please tell us more about the circumstances where it took place! Michael


Michael!

Please, can I have some sensitivity?

Thanks

Allan

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

2003-01-09 Thread Lloyd Charles


From: Allan Balliett 
 I'm very not comfortable with YahooGroups, for reasons mentioned and
others.
I detest Yahool!! BDnow is THE BEST

 What I would like to do is keep the archives here and physically
 dispense them on a quarterly basis. The archives would not be
 available to lurkers, only to posters. CD-Rom is the appropriate way
 to go. These could be sent out at cost, etc. Each CD could be
 cumultive, and so on.
That would be OK

 I'll also move to have the earlier archives expunged.
I'd like to see these recorded there is a lot of good stuff on those early
archives!!

Cheers
Lloyd Charles

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

I'd like to see these recorded there is a lot of good stuff on those early
archives!!


All dangerously outdated, Lloyd.

Ok, I'm kidding. The plan is to incorporate all the archives on the first CD.
This will work best if someone in OZ volunteers to work from disk 
images and will burn and distribute down there. (OK, that includes 
NZ, too)

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

2003-01-09 Thread David J. Heaf

If it's any help, the issue of open archives was discussed years ago on
anthropos-science list run by Stuart Brown at Reading UK and the wish of
members was overwhelmingly in favour of member-only archive access.
Otherwise it inhibits 'conversation'  and helps the spammers. Apart from
that, the golden rule is never put anything in writing that you don't want
the whole world to read.

David
Wales, UK

mailing lists

2003-01-09 Thread flylo

Roger stated: This is not the usual practice for 
mailing lists (for archives to be in the public domain)

Doesn't matter if the archives or the forum is supposed 
to be private or public, I don't think. I recently ran a 
search on something totally innocent (Dragon Langerie 
wax beans), and on the 2nd page of Google, there was 
a posting I had made to this group a couple of years ago!

I like the CD rom idea though. That way I can dump my 
BDNOW folder and still have access to the many 
discussions.

archival posts out of bounds of google?

2003-01-09 Thread mroboz




Allan-would these old archives and newer ones be blind to 
google searches? 
If so, I'm for it with password access. I 
still believe in archives, especially for those new to the list and want to read 
up on a subject long ago discussed in great length.
Michael

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

amen
brand new "member" 
jeff barney

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

oops! the amen was to david's post from wales. I didn't realize as newbie that his post wouldn't ride along with my reply.
jeff barney

FW: THE PRESIDENT wants to hear: Do you OPPOSE thePROPOSED WARin IRAQ, or APPROVE it?

Title: FW: THE PRESIDENT wants to hear: Do you OPPOSE thePROPOSED WAR in IRAQ, or APPROVE it?






The president has said that he wants to know what the American people are
thinking...DO WE OPPOSE THE PROPOSED WAR IN IRAQ, OR APPROVE IT? 
Let him know. Time is running out

The Bush White House has an opinion line for you to call 202-456-.
The line only accepts calls from 9-5 EST., Monday thru Friday weekends are closed for calls.

So, whether you oppose or approve of the proposed war in Iraq, give a call. Again...you can reach the White House opinion line at 202-456-. 

It will only take minutes. A machine will detain you for only a moment and then a
pleasant live operator will thank you for saying I oppose or I approve.
Remember that the weekends are closed for calls. 

Then please COPY PASTE and send this e-mail to at least five people right away. 

Tell them what you think: 
1 PHONE CALL EQUALS 10-20 PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T CALL,
PLEASE PASS ON TO FRIENDS



-- End of Forwarded Message

FW: [globalnews] Bush accused of excessive secrecy, civil rightsclampdown

Title: FW: [globalnews] Bush accused of excessive secrecy, civil rights clampdown

Bush accused of civil rights clampdown

Ed Vulliamy in New York
Sunday January 5, 2003
The Observer
http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,868965,00.html

President George Bush is presiding over the most secretive administration in 'living memory', according to American civil rights groups and congressmen.

Critics accuse him of orchestrating an unprecedented clampdown on freedom of information and the press. This has resulted in a dramatic increase in documents and proceedings being classified secret and an overall shutdown of the free flow of information over the government's political and legal conduct. They are also concerned over what they see as alarming restrictions on the Freedom of Information Act.

Democrat Senator Patrick Leahy, first elected in 1974, said: 'Since I have been here, I have never known an administration that it has been more difficult to get information from.'

The administration, under the aegis of Vice-President Dick Cheney, has outlined a new philosophy of emphasis on executive privileges and power. Cheney was at the centre of one of the most controversial clashes over secrecy, when he refused to hand over records of the consultations behind the government energy plan, which involved and benefited many of his personal connections in the business and featured the disgraced Enron corporation.

The Vice-President was subject to the first ever writ to be served by Congress on the White House, which he fought on the grounds that executive authority should be protected and Congress had no right to sue. Cheney's argument was upheld by Judge John Bates, himself a Bush appointment.

Most secretive measures are justified by mentioning 11 September, but US journalists have calculated that even in the year up to 30 September 2001 - most of which was spent under the Bush administration - the number of classified documents totalled 260,978, up 18 per cent on the last year of the Clinton administration.

Restrictions to the Freedom of Information Act were announced after 11 September by Attorney General John Ashcroft but were planned long before the attacks. They were the result of a directive from Ashcroft that federal agencies should be encouraged to reject requests for documents if there was any legal reason for doing so. The directive ran counter to Bill Clinton's, which told agencies to open up the record books whenever possible.

The fallout from 11 September goes well beyond proposed military tribunals for those accused of terrorism. It festers mainly in the sweep of arrests and detentions of immigrants in the wake of the attacks, the vast majority for ordinary visa violations.

While a handful have been held as 'material witnesses' to the attacks, some 750 hearings that have nothing to do with terrorism were held behind closed doors, shut to relatives, friends, public and press alike. Even the names of the accused were secret.

The secret trials followed a verdict by chief immigration judge Michael Creppy covering what he called 'special interest cases' involving alleged connections to terrorism. They were challenged by families of the accused and two newspapers in New Jersey, which argued that the closed-door policy should be considered case-by-case.

'Deportation cases have always been open,' said Lee Gerlent of the American Civil Liberties Union, which represented the newspapers. 'The government did not provide any evidence to the contrary.'

A book by Mary Graham of the Brookings Institution think-tank in Washington, Democracy by Disclosure, reveals how after 11 September officials went about dismantling government websites, and tinkered with those advising residents about the dangers of nearby chemical or toxic plants.

The process dovetailed with what the chemical and energy industries, for decades allied to the Bush family and political machine in Texas, had argued for, insisting that disclosure was unnecessary.

One of the most notorious cases of detention under seal is that of Mohammed Atriss, said to have been the provider of fake identification cards obtained by the hijack terrorists of 11 September.

The unofficial cards are ubiquitous in America, and are bought over the counter for the price of a few dollars and a passport-sized photograph. Atriss was arrested in a glare of publicity by a squadron of assault weapon-wielding officers five months ago. His lawyers say Atriss had no more idea who the terrorists were than any of his other thousands of customers to his ID card shop.

Atriss is still in jail and prosecutors refuse to say what the evidence is, or if he represents a security threat. The bond of half a million dollars is that usually posted for someone on a murder charge.
--
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better
than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not
your counsels or arms. Crouch down and

Re: Freedom of speech (was Personal Security vs NationalSecurity)

I have to say that this thread almost bothers me more than what my
government is doing in the name of security. Here are presumably intelligent
folks who do 'think outside the box' and are so scared of life and the
ruling elite that they won't speak up for themselves? Is it any wonder
George was allowed to steal the election?

The last time I looked, speech was still free in this country. If people of
strong beliefs who work to change the world to a better and more equitable
place, invoking spirit in all things on a daily basis are too scared to
associate their ideas with their name, then I am greatly saddened.

It's pitiful folks. Time to eradicate fear as our great motivator and move
the planet  all inhabitants into liberation. Let Love live in the world!
Loosen the chains of fear!

Blessings,
Jane
 My primary goal is to make people comfortable to share their
 experiences and feelings with each other.
 
 -Allan

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

Title: Re: Personal Security vs National Security



(Allan wrote:) MANY people I talk to at conferences have told me that they do not want to associate their 
names with their ideas in such a public place.

This is very sad. Curtis would like you to tell your story to GlobalNews. Or some version of your story you can live with if you don't want to name names.

(Allan) The archives would not be available to lurkers, only to posters. CD-Rom is the appropriate way 
to go. These could be sent out at cost, etc. Each CD could be cumultive, and so on.

This sounds like a huge hassle. Too much work, too many details etc. Wouldn't it be easier to just make the archives password protected? So if someone joins the list, they receive the password at that time. I never know when I 'm going to use the archive. Sometimes once a year. Sometimes weekly. I've also used it when I was having computer problems to see if I was not receiving mail because of my computer.

I assume you prefer the cd because then google cant go there?

Jane

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

2003-01-09 Thread klebeau

Allan may have really really needed that job--and jobs are scarce these
days.

If we all owned our own farms and were independently wealthy, this would be
less of an issue.  I also wonder about those on the listserve who are in
other countries with less freedom than we have in the U.S. and whether
this may affect them.

I prefer to choose my battles and not have them thrust upon me unawares and
unprepared--especially when they endanger my ability to make a living.  If
you've ever been discriminated against in a job, or in trying to get a job,
I hope you would understand.

Goethe kept his occult life and professional life separate.  So did the
ancient Chinese--legalist or Confucianist by day and Buddhist or Taoist once
you were home.

Having his personal views posted publicly and be used against him, denies
Allan the opportunity to practice the Mahayana Buddhist concept of
upaya--meeting people where they are at.  He could have quietly transformed
that entire organization by his presence there and working there without
ever discussing his spiritual/personal ideas.

Kara




You didn't want that
 job anyway!

 This list is very precious to a lot of people.  What ashamed to have to
put
 the archive underground.

 Best,

 Merla

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

2003-01-09 Thread Aurora Farm

Yes Merla Peace and there is a whole other segment of the populus on Turtle
Island holding the faith and praying peace.
Check out www.emissaryoflight.com which is James Twymann's site. Many
interesting activities happening there right now and even how to be at peace
with who we really are and what we came to this plane to do. No need to
hide.
Blessings and Peace,
Barbara and Woody
Aurora Farm. the only
unsubsidized, family-run seed farm
in North America offering garden seeds
grown using Rudolf Steiner's methods
of spiritual agriculture.  http://www.kootenay.com/~aurora


-Original Message-
From: Merla Barberie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, January 09, 2003 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Personal Security vs National Security


Yes, please record the early archives and made them available if you
expunge
them.

The whole climate in our beloved country is distressing.  I just got a post
on CAFTA, an extension of NAFTA to Central America.  They were keeping the
terms of the treaty secret so that NGOs couldn't protest.  Democracy is
based
on free speech, yet we are so intimidated that things like this happen to
Allan.  9/11 really dumped these opportunities into the laps of the right
wing and US voters are buying it out of fear.

Many people I know are praying for peace and want no war in Iraq.  We must
continue to create with our wonderful agricultural insights for the good of
humanity and all creatures on earth and continue to meditate and have our
vision of peace.  The cult of secrecy about Bio-Dynamics is lifting.  Each
year that Stella Natura comes out, I perceive more openness.  Allan, you
mustn't be intimidated by the mincing, middle-of-the road organic people.
There has to be a place for someone who calls a spade a spade and who
pushes
the envelope.  That's the only way real insights come.  You didn't want
that
job anyway!

This list is very precious to a lot of people.  What ashamed to have to put
the archive underground.

Best,

Merla

Lloyd Charles wrote:

 From: Allan Balliett 
  I'm very not comfortable with YahooGroups, for reasons mentioned and
 others.
 I detest Yahool!! BDnow is THE BEST
 
  What I would like to do is keep the archives here and physically
  dispense them on a quarterly basis. The archives would not be
  available to lurkers, only to posters. CD-Rom is the appropriate way
  to go. These could be sent out at cost, etc. Each CD could be
  cumultive, and so on.
 That would be OK
 
  I'll also move to have the earlier archives expunged.
 I'd like to see these recorded there is a lot of good stuff on those
early
 archives!!

 Cheers
 Lloyd Charles

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

2003-01-09 Thread Steve Diver

I don't have time to read through all the posts,
but I got far enough to voice my opinion.

Allan, sorry but I don't think much of your idea
to move BD-Now to a private space and
to expunge the earlier archives.

I don't think much of YahooGroups, either.

Yet, I will certainly join the private group and
post occassionally if that is what you decide to
do.

The archives are very valuable and they are quick.

A person has a whole library of information available
by organizing links to the posts.  The archives have
convenient links instead of those convoluted links.

If it is possible, keep the archives at csf.colorado.edu

There are stranger and more far out things on the
web than Steiner, BD, radionics, and trees as broadcasters.

Some people lament that acceptance and widespread
adoption of biodynamics is behind the times.  BD-Now
offers valuable knowledge and technical support for BD.

Steve Diver

Re: Freedom of speech (was Personal Security vs NationalSecurity)

2003-01-09 Thread Katherine Griebel

Well spoken, Jane.  If our belief system defines who we are, then so be it.
Can I, in this modern age, be chastised for my belief system, you bet.  I'm
all for freedom of speech and integrity.  Spoken by an appreciative lurker.

Kathy Griebel

Insecurity Blues (or Fear and Loathing on the Freedom Trail)

2003-01-09 Thread Frank Teuton

Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep.
It starts when you're always afraid. Step outta line, the man come and take
you away.

Stop children, what's that sound, everybody look what's going down

Find, your cost of freedomburied in the ground. Mother earth will
swallow  you. Lay your body down.

Yeah, let us make it harder and harder for people to access our thoughts and
words, gosh, wouldn't it be awful if they read them and thought about them?
Free speech should only be for fair weather, when the going gets tough we
should all hush up, eh?

Hide your love away, baby

Maybe while you are hiding away the history of the list, you should change
the name from BDNOW! to bd, uh, maybe, sometime

No GUTS, no GLORY'twas ever thus

(Of course if you want to start an 'inner circle' private email discussion
for people who are unwilling to speak out to the internet, you can always do
sotill they come for you...)

Get up, Stand up! Stand up for your rights! Get up, Stand up! Don't give up
the fight!

And who could forget:

The junta broke the fingers, on Victor Jara's hands, and said to the gentle
poet, play your guitar now, if you can, so Victor started singing, until
they shot his body down...you can kill a man, but not a song when it's sung
the whole world round...

Of course I wouldn't want to credit any of the authors of these words, since
the small chance that the Office of Total Information Awareness doesn't know
who they are would then be obliterated. (Ha ha!)

Either stand up and encourage others to do likewise, or close the shop and
slink away. Really there is little point holding an internet discussion and
keeping it secret, what the heck are you thinking?

So, self edit, delete any posts their authors want deleted, and carry on. Or
not. Just don't pretend to be courageous if you don't.

My two cents,

Frank Teuton--hopes he didn't make anyone 'uncomfortable'.;-)

'We must all hang together, or we shall surely hang separately.' ---Benjamin
Franklin, who had mad King George in his day too;-)


- Original Message -
From: Steve Diver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: Personal Security vs National Security


 I don't have time to read through all the posts,
 but I got far enough to voice my opinion.

 Allan, sorry but I don't think much of your idea
 to move BD-Now to a private space and
 to expunge the earlier archives.

 I don't think much of YahooGroups, either.

 Yet, I will certainly join the private group and
 post occassionally if that is what you decide to
 do.

 The archives are very valuable and they are quick.

 A person has a whole library of information available
 by organizing links to the posts.  The archives have
 convenient links instead of those convoluted links.

 If it is possible, keep the archives at csf.colorado.edu

 There are stranger and more far out things on the
 web than Steiner, BD, radionics, and trees as broadcasters.

 Some people lament that acceptance and widespread
 adoption of biodynamics is behind the times.  BD-Now
 offers valuable knowledge and technical support for BD.

 Steve Diver

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

2003-01-09 Thread sherwood

Interesting thread, and the evolution of BDNow! continues.

The archives are a tremendously valuable asset, and it would be a shame if
they were not made available to those who truly have an interest in BD.
The fact that anyone, with the stroke of a key can access them, can lead,
as Allan has found out, to problems. I know from personal experience that
this accessibility has limited my exchange with the group. The notion that
free speech is really free is unrealistic.

I frequent the archives often. It seems that back in the innocence of the
90s people were more comfortable with the free exchange of ideas. The
information there is considerable and priceless (especially for those new
to BD). Seems lately theres been more global news and less biodynamic
theory.

Fact is, I believe that making the archives inaccessible to search engines
is a great idea. The idea that a majority of the people in this world are
ready for the whole package of  Steiner and His agriculture is (again)
unrealistic. So how do we go about it? How do we promote in depth open
discussion, while making sure that only those that want it (and need it)
have access to it.

Four years ago I didnt even now that biodynamics existed. Thanks largely
due to this forum, I exist in a different world (cosmos) now. But try to
explain this to the average joe, one must be careful.theres a lot of
ignorance and unreasonable fear in the world (especially here in the Bible
belt).

The internet is what it is. If someone really wants to see it, and they
have the technological know how, they can access both public and private
email. You can only prevent this by using snail mail. CDs with the
archives for members of the group is a good idea. Ungoogling the archives
is another thing that would create a more comfortable atmosphere for
discussion. Actually the specter of some of the folks on the list throwing
caution to the wind is almost scary.

Do it Allan. You know its the right thing to do.

Most of the people reading this are lurkers. Thats OK, lurking is not a
crime. People come to different lists for different reasons. How many
lurkers out there were stirring and spraying before they came to this
list?  Its time for some of you to chime in. This discussion affects you
too! (cmon just this once).

Just one opinion,
FWIW,

Ed

about Google and other search engines

2003-01-09 Thread flylo

I was looking up another topic (chicken tunnels), and Google listed 
a number of tunnel and 'moat' sites. I clicked on one, 
(homesteading today?) I can't remember but it said 'this forum has 
been converted to members access only, please enter your 
password.'
So, it is doable to change from an open forum / archives to a 
closed discussion group if that's really what you want to do.

Re: where in Texas?/ Private archives?

Hi!

I think the idea of a list of know sites for your broadcasters would be a
matter of interest to all of us, even those who may never visit your country.
We would be able to get some idea of the type of operations that had taken
them on board and the sort of country they are servicing.

But as has been mentioned in other posts, that information in the public
domain is not necessarily the best place for it. While any closed group can
easily be penetrated, it takes more effort than googleing. I have a brother
in-law who does not keep email addresses and when he wants mine, he just
googles and his emails often start with comment on one of my posts.

So, Allan, I am in favour of moving the archive to pass word access.

Gil

Hugh Lovel wrote:

 Dear Martha,

 It's a big state. I must have a dozen field broadcaster users in Texas--at
 least. It's big with grassmen and longhorn raisers. You probably don't run
 across these folks. I'm going to have to put up a field broadcaster's list
 I guess.

 Hugh

 Hugh writes: 
 I think what you, Jeff, Allan and others, particularly in
 Hawaii, Texas,
 the midwest and out on the west coast, have done as
 regards making BD
 info
 available to the public 
 
 Are there demo farms in Texas? I know of one or two
 practitioners, but I was unaware of any teaching
 facilities. When Peaceable Kingdom was going strong
 in Brenham, it's (then) director used biodynamic
 methods to some extent. He has since moved to
 Dripping Springs may be involved in a similar enterprise
 there as well?
 Interesting note, when I went to Fredricksburg (alt energy
 convention), they had a short seminar on an intro to
 biodynamics. Two guys had purchased land that once
 was a military base (cement, hard packed dirt, barren,
 inhospitable.) In 2 - 3 years, they had turned it around to
 become one of the more productive farmsteads in the
 area. They were at the seminar, explaining their
 techniques. I don't think I ever converted my notes to the
 computer, but I probably have them around in one of my
 bookshelves. (must go dig now!)

 Visit our website at: www.unionag.org

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

2003-01-09 Thread David J. Heaf

David - What is your real name? -Allan


David Heaf. My somewhat anonymous e-address 101622 dot 2773 at compuserve
dot com was issued in 1995 when Compuserve did not allow names in
e-addresses.

David Heaf,
Wales, UK

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

Thanks Gil! wading isn't an option at this depth!
My wife and I have a small home garden here in Durham North Carolina and are looking to take the full scale plunge. We've sprayed the nine preps for two years and the Three Kings this year. There are two more in this area Jon with 161 acres and Leah with fifteen. We delivered the Three Kings prep to them on sunday and were doubly inspired. 
I have been "lurking" for only about a week. I'm still wincing a little from some of the pigeon-holing generalizations about anthropops and bdidiots. But thats ok I'm a big enough boy to see the truth in these "observations" - being both an anthroposophist and an idiot.
thanks for the warm welcome gil.
jeff barney

Re: Personal Security vs National Security



Hi! Jeff,
Do not take those comments personally. I think they are directed at
a few individuals, known to some on the list, but not the bulk of us. I
think it is aimed at a few who are doing the "my God is a better God than
yours" or "my god is the only God, therefore yours must be the devil" type
thing.
I think many of us on this list believed RS when he told us to go on
learning and that we would take his work further.
In much of Oz, the soil/ climate/ vegetation/ crops/ seasons/
stars etc are quite unlike those with which RS was dealing. It may be that
at some point in the future, we will evolve a set of Preps that more closely
approximates the needs of the local conditions. If this comes to pass,
I believe RS would approve. But I am equally sure that there would be those
who would excommunicate us, if they have not already done so.
Gil
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thanks Gil! wading
isn't an option at this depth!

Re: Personal Security vs National Security - Web spider

Thank you Zoran,
I am upgrading at the moment and the new box has ten gigs so will have room,
if I am quick!

Gil

zoran wrote:

Fwd:GREG WILLIS: Fixing Steiner Agriculture - Step One



Dear Allan,

As I have discussed in some detail, the facts show that Rudolf Steiner's
ideas have really not permeated agriculture.  I have discussed the
reasons that this has happened, or more precisely, failed to happen.

I have pointed out that biodynamics is an invention of the organizations
and individuals who took it upon themselves to bring what they
understood as Steiner's ideas into society but have failed because they
don't understand it.  We do, by the way, see this failure in their
rudimentary descriptive terms such as Steiner indicated, biodynamic
preparations, ethericity, astrality and egoity just to name a
few.  Terms that are completely out of date and misleading in today's
world.

(A real important footnote: their definitions of ether and astral
are opposite the ancient yoga sutras.  There, astral is between ether
and physical matter in order of vibrational fineness or grossness.  This
leads me to conclude that either Steiner got it wrong or his minions got
it wrong.  Since nearly 100% of his talks were transcribed, I tend to
think the latter.)

Another major problem with biodynamics is that it has become encumbered
by one official way of doing it.  That is, Demeter certification.  I
prefer to call it Demeter Calcification.  Ossified.  The Demeter
regulations are little more than organic standards plus the use of BD
Preps Horn Manure and Horn Silica once a year plus some compost.  The
don't have the slightest understanding of Steiner's understanding of the
Universal Laws and Principles underpinning his conceptions.

If we understand these laws and principles, working as RS did, from both
a spiritual science point of view and a physical science point of view,
we can begin the process of fixing what is a disaster for humanity
created by the Anthros and the BDidiots.

Saints, Avatars and the great Wise Men and Women of the Ages don't visit
Earth randomly.  They come for a purpose at a time when they are
needed.  In a phrase, God sent them.  (God sent His only begotten
son.)  The message that they bring is important, even vital, to all the
Earth as a schoolhouse for souls to develop Unconditional Love.  This
little corner of the Universe is unique.  It is a place for souls to
advance quickly in their quest to return to their Creator, from whence
they commeth.

The idea is to keep this place going.  The Forces if Evil, ignorant of
God, finite in their lives and perspective, would seek to take the Earth
and its surrounds away from souls seeking this return to the Heavenly
Father - Divine Mother, thus hindering their quest for perfection and
restoral just as they have chosen for themselves.  Steiner, a great
saint in his own right, described this in great detail.

But, as said Shakespeare, here's the rub.  All souls live in the Thought
of God.  Everyone plays by the same rules.  Let's look at these rules.

First, there is the Law of Unity.  All exists in the One.  It is God's
thought that holds all of Creation together.  God is in all things and
all things are in God.  So, when you see a flower, you are seeing an
Individualized Expression of Spirit, or God.

Second is the Law of Duality.  This might be called the Law of Opposites
or the Law of Contrasts.  In action it is light-dark, up-down, in-out,
good-bad, life-death.  Life is a search for Truth.  It is God's way of
teaching His children the difference between truth and lies.  On the
Earthly plane, if we did not have these contrasting forces at work, we
would have no understanding of the relative differences between, for
example, doing good or evil.  Duality exists in Unity.  Everything is a
reflection of God.  It is no other option.

Which leads us to the third most important Universal Law, the Law of
Free Will.  This too is described in great detail by RS in his lectures,
The Hierarchy of Angels.  On this plane, human souls are, in a sense,
furthest away from God, the Divine Creator of All Things.  He/She has
granted souls an opportunity to do just about anything they want to do.
This great Double Edged Sword can lead to great good or great evil.  But
most importantly, it leads to great advancement for the soul.  The Laws
that define the Universe are not so forgiving on other planes of
existence.  In those Realms, there is no pure Free Will, thus the
advancement of souls is slower but there is less pain and suffering.
God's Children come here to advance quickly.  It's a very tough school.
It wasn't meant to be easy.  But greater strides can be made here in a
shorter period of time.  It is possible, through Kriya Yoga, to pay off
the Karmic debt of thousands of lifetimes in one short life.  A million
years of Karma in only 20 years of intense and sincere practice.  Seek
and ye shall find, ask and you shall be given.  God is not so
unforgiving that He does not give each of us a quick way back to Him.

Having Free Will has its attendant consequences.  The Law of Cause and
Effect, or Karma, the Law of Consequences, or, said another way, you

Channel3000.com - News - Couple Works To Save Farmyard Animals

2003-01-09 Thread Moen Creek

Well you forced me to google
my actual persona and there is the news piece from the summer.

www.channel3000.com/news/1563365/detail.html

I use the handle Markess here to try  remined me to be soft unscorpion like
and a bit artistic.
I've long signed my art  poem this way.

L*L 
Markess

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

I know from fundamentalists in every organization. My bone of contention is: if one trashes a whole group without specific example, especially in light of the broad discussion under this subject line, then a tacit understaning is implied. Forming by default an opposing fundamentalist mimey culty thingy. Really I have a sense of humor about these things its just that trashing people is the habitual disease of the day. There are better ways of saying it.
That's why I said amen to David Heaf. 
So this leads to the subject line. 
My instinct says F@#* any concern for what the ill willed would do with the goings on here. 
But then I started thinking about sitting at a cafe next to some strangers. And I just started blurting out anthroposophical and biodynamic theory and jargon. The astral body this the etheric that and lucifer and ahriman and sorat. Without context that stuff sounds loopy! My concern then is: what am I doing to promote these self creative forces in the world? alienating someone who may have developed some relationship to anthroposophy and all her movements? 
Thats not fear. 
If fear of what might happen is the reason to privatize I say don't do it.

david's real name...........is

2003-01-09 Thread mroboz




Allan-David's real name is David Heaf. I have 
corresponed with him in the past.
Michael

internet posting

2003-01-09 Thread flylo

I suppose there are entire agencies devoted to snooping in on 
internet email groups. Ok by me. I suggest posting long, hard, 
information-driven messages. The people you intend to see them 
will benefit, the people who haven't a clue will probably absorb 
some of it, even unintentionally. 
The sheer volume of drivel that goes thru email channels would 
drive one to their knees if it was his job to sort n sift. Buy stock in 
Bayer Aspirin (and maybe Prozac) and post away, gang!

The FBI agency is called Carnivore (the biggest spy capabilities, 
anyhow.)
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/carnivore/carnivore.htm


When you get there, click on Carnivore Diagnostic Tool to read a 
letter from it's Assistant Director on why this is such a wonderful 
tool to combat terrorism. Please note the date, September 6, 2000.
(If it was in place last Sept, it certainly wasn't doing an adequate 
job, just monitoring us lowlife farmer terrorist types.)

GM Crops are Breeding with Plants in the Wild

2003-01-09 Thread Barry Carter

Dear Friends,

Did you all see this:

GM Crops are Breeding with Plants in the Wild

Published on December 29, 2002 by the lndependent/UK

by Geoffrey Lean

Alarming new results from official trials of GM crops are severely 
jeopardizing Government plans for growing them commercially in Britain.

The results, in a new Government report, show - for the first time in 
Britain - that genes from GM crops are interbreeding on a large scale with 
conventional ones, and also with weeds.

The report is so devastating to the Government's case for GM crops that 
ministers last week sought to bury it by slipping the first information on 
it out on the website of the Department of the Environment, Food and Rural 
Affairs (Defra) on Christmas Eve, the one day in the year when no 
newspapers are being prepared.

Even then, the department published only a heavily edited summary of the 
main report. Unusually, the full report, which will contain much more 
devastating detail, was withheld from publication on the website. Defra 
said it was available on request, but when The Independent on Sunday tried 
to ask for it last week, the department said no one was available to 
provide it.

The report, the result of six years of monitoring of GM crops in Britain, 
is particularly politically explosive and it gives the first results from 
the official farm-scale trials, which ministers have been running to test 
the suitability of growing GM crops in Britain.

The Government has repeatedly said that the results of the trials would 
settle the question of whether GM crops endangered the environment but - 
perhaps because it knew what the research had found - it has been 
downplaying their significance in recent weeks.

The trials - originally set up to buy time in the face of strong public 
hostility to the crops - were not designed to look at the possibility of 
genes from GM crops contaminating nearby plants, but focused on the effects 
of different uses of pesticides on GM and non-GM plants. But, after this 
was criticized, studies of this gene flow were bolted on.

The report covers true studies carried out between 1994 and 2000 by the 
National Institute of Agricultural Botany and the Laboratory of the 
Government Chemist. It shows that genes from GM oil seed rape, specially 
engineered to be resistant to herbicides, contaminated conventional crops 
as far as 200 yards away.

Equally alarmingly, GM oil seed rape that escaped from a crop harvested in 
1996 persisted for at least four years, until studies ended in 2000.

In another case, the report adds: It was found that some combine 
harvesters were not cleaned after the harvesting of the GM crop, and 
subsequently flushed out'' the GM seed on to ground intended for 
conventional crops causing contamination of this field.

Most worryingly of all, the report shows that the GM crop readily interbred 
with a weed, wild turnip, giving it resistance to herbicides and thus 
raising the prospect of the development of super weeds.

The report concludes that the research indicates that commercial-scale 
releases of GM oil seed rape in future could pollinate other crops and wild 
turnip.

Other studies from elsewhere in the world have shown that interbreeding 
occurs, and English Nature, the Government's wildlife watchdog, has said 
super weeds will inevitably emerge in Britain if GM crops are grown 
commercially.

In a commentary also published by Defra on Christmas Eve, the official 
advisory committee on releases to the environment said that the 
contamination was entirely within expectations.

The committee added that in itself gene flow did not constitute a risk to 
the environment. But Pete Riley of Friends of the Earth said the results 
showed that if GM crops became widespread, almost all similar crops would 
inevitably become contaminated, severely threatening organic agriculture. 
He added: It is not surprising that the Government has tried to cover up 
this report.

It shows that we need to know a great deal more about these issues before 
we even contemplate growing GM crops commercially.

--

With kindest regards,

Barry Carter
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
2319 Balm
Baker City, Oregon 97814
Phone: 541-523-3357
Web Pages:
Forest - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/bmnfa/index.htm
ORMUS - http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/whatisit.htm

pleasure and pain are merely surfaces
(one itself showing,itself hiding one)
life's only and true value neither is
love makes the little thickness of the coin
-E.E. Cummings

Re: Freedom of speech (was Personal Security vs NationalSecurity)

2003-01-09 Thread ron poitras

It is not just fear that's in the way, but the loss of economic advantage as
well.

The aphorism Information wants to be free is usually attributed to Steward
Brand, to which somebody later added, but it also wants to keep you under
surveillance.

In his book Media Lab Brand wrote:
Information wants to be free (because of the new ease of copying and
reshaping and casual distribution), AND information wants to be expensive
(it's the prime economic event in an information age)... and technology is
constantly making the tension worse. If you cling blindly to the expensive
part of the paradox, you miss all the action going on in the free part. The
pressure of the paradox forces information to explore incessantly. Smart
marketers and inventors quietly follow-and I might add, so do smart computer
security people.

-Original Message-
From: Jane Sherry [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Bdnow [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, January 09, 2003 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: Freedom of speech (was Personal Security vs NationalSecurity)


I have to say that this thread almost bothers me more than what my
government is doing in the name of security. Here are presumably
intelligent
folks who do 'think outside the box' and are so scared of life and the
ruling elite that they won't speak up for themselves? Is it any wonder
George was allowed to steal the election?

The last time I looked, speech was still free in this country. If people of
strong beliefs who work to change the world to a better and more equitable
place, invoking spirit in all things on a daily basis are too scared to
associate their ideas with their name, then I am greatly saddened.

It's pitiful folks. Time to eradicate fear as our great motivator and move
the planet  all inhabitants into liberation. Let Love live in the world!
Loosen the chains of fear!

Blessings,
Jane
 My primary goal is to make people comfortable to share their
 experiences and feelings with each other.

 -Allan

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

2003-01-09 Thread Lloyd Charles

- Original Message -
From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: Personal Security vs National Security

Hi Allan
 Have you noticed how the lurkers seem to be against your idea
and most of the active posters in favour ? ('cept Frank of course)
Lloyd Charles

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

2003-01-09 Thread Roger Pye

Allan Balliett wrote:


It seems to me that it would be best to move into a more 'member 
oriented' archive instead of a public archive.

The major purpose of this list is to speak openly and to share our 
experiences  in some fairly unusual realms.

I think everyone is feeling this shyness.  I think this holding back 
is hurting the list.

What say, folks?

When I joined the list I was astonished to find its archives are in the 
public domain for everyone to see. This is not the usual practice for 
mailing lists and I would always vote for archives to be accessible by 
members only. Otherwise there is always a risk that an innocent remark 
may be taken out of context by someone and used maliciously.

By all means take the archives out of the public arena, Allan, even 
though it is quite likely some 'friendly' agency already has  a copy. 
The action will at least protect future posts.

Roger

Re: Personal Security vs National Security

Also answers to King?

Gil

Allan Balliett wrote:

 David - What is your real name? -Allan

Re: Personal Security vs National Security