Re: puppy feeding
I'm way behind on my email, so apologize that this response is so tardy. Mark, and all - yes, most research on pet foods is done or at least financed by the pet food manufacturers. The reasons for this were well explained in another post. However, something to bear in mind is that, at least with the big names in the vet industry (though in some fancier circles, they are considered 4 letter words) like Iams and Science Diet, the research they do usually results in them changing THEIR forumulas. I would be much more concerned if all their research tended to prove that their formulas and diets were best. But the opposite is what tends to happen - they either do or finance research into a particular problem and when that research shows that their formulas are not the most appropriate, they change their diet to reflect the new knowledge. The large breed formulas came about as a result of research into the causes of developmental orthopedic problems. Those studies showed that higher energy levels (read fat and carbs, NOT protein) were actually more closely associated with increased orthopedic problems, as were inappropriate calcium:phosphorus ratios. So, they developed their large breed formulas to address these problems. Interestingly enough, a few years ago I attended one of the big veterinary conferences and had the opportunity to speak with a veterinary nutritionist - in other words, a vet that's a specialist in nutrition. I asked him about the common breeder's preference to switch large breed puppies to adult foods, and some even wean directly onto adult foods. He said that this was completely reasonable and justified before the large breed puppy foods were available - the regular puppy foods were just too rich for the large breeds and encouraged them to grow too rapidly, thus increasing their risk of orthopedic problems. Now, however, it was not necessary, or even advised - the large breed formulas are better suited than adult formulas because the puppy will be able to get a better level of nutrition in a food that is designed for them. A puppy may not be physically able to eat enough of a less nutrient dense food to meet his needs, and if he does eat enough to meet some needs (like protein and calories), then he may actually wind up getting too much of other things, like calcium. Just something to think about. A lot of people view the larger pet food manufacturers as some evil entity whose only purpose is to take our money and who care nothing for the well-being of their dogs. But, if the dogs (and cats) did not, in general, do well on these foods, who would keep buying them or recommending them to others? Certainly, not all dogs will do well on every diet, nor is every diet right for any dog. But the research does show general trends. Personally, while there ARE certain brands I try to steer my clients away from due to their complete lack of quality, other than that I merely recommend that they really research their choices. Most are willing to trust my judgment (and don't want to do the research themselves G), so ask what I feed my dogs and go from there. Melissa On 9 Mar 03, at 11:16, Mark Mohapp wrote: However, one of my concerns however lies in the fact that the pet food industry wants to accommodate the consumer and some times it gets rather trendy. In reviewing research about large breed formulas I have found that most of the research was conducted by the manufacturers of dog food and pet food industry. Melissa, Tyra and Orry Granite Falls, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED] BEHAF Homepage: http://www.behaf.com
Re: puppy feeding
Rose: I do have to be careful about my comments on Large Breed puppy Formulas for dogs.I am not a Nutritionist and I do NOT want to mislead any new puppy owners. However, one of my concerns however lies in the fact that the pet food industry wants to accommodate the consumer and some times it gets rather trendy. In reviewing research about large breed formulas I have found that most of the research was conducted by the manufacturers of dog food and pet food industry. As we all know with large breed dogs there is inherited risk, environmental stress, and nutrition affecting the well being and development of the dog. I have seen some Berner pups that were kept so lean that they looked emaciated. ( I am not talking about the typical lanky and awkward stage in pups that are not mature dogs) So - I am continuing to research this but I believe that excess weight on a dog may be more of a culprit than what the exact ratio of protein in foods. Owners still have to control portions and if Berner pups are not supposed to have heavy exercise than it makes sense that the amount they are fed needs to be considered. I can share some of my resources with you and possibly you can share some of yours with me. I may not have looked at some of the independent research that you may be aware of. I am still learning and do read a lot from a variety of sources. I do not believe that many vets are well versed in nutrition - maybe vet schools are changing this. I think medical doctors were accused of the same thing at one point? But thank you! I always appreciate your information and it often helps me switch gears in my thinking. Mark Mohapp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: puppy feeding
i am in the process of trying to make some sense of all this from a nutritionist's point of view. i am looking at documents from cornell etc. when i learn something i will pass it on. i believe my human nutrition background will permit me to understand some of the ratios etc that were developed. since i do not feed kibble i did not delve into the data when my dogs were pups. from a professional standpoint know i am curious enough to try and get to the bottom of this. andrea, woofit and chi shavertown, pa http://www.brin.org/Woofit_and_Chi/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mark Mohapp Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 12:17 PM To: Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List Subject: Re: puppy feeding Rose: I do have to be careful about my comments on Large Breed puppy Formulas for dogs.I am not a Nutritionist and I do NOT want to mislead any new puppy owners. However, one of my concerns however lies in the fact that the pet food industry wants to accommodate the consumer and some times it gets rather trendy. In reviewing research about large breed formulas I have found that most of the research was conducted by the manufacturers of dog food and pet food industry. As we all know with large breed dogs there is inherited risk, environmental stress, and nutrition affecting the well being and development of the dog. I have seen some Berner pups that were kept so lean that they looked emaciated. ( I am not talking about the typical lanky and awkward stage in pups that are not mature dogs) So - I am continuing to research this but I believe that excess weight on a dog may be more of a culprit than what the exact ratio of protein in foods. Owners still have to control portions and if Berner pups are not supposed to have heavy exercise than it makes sense that the amount they are fed needs to be considered. I can share some of my resources with you and possibly you can share some of yours with me. I may not have looked at some of the independent research that you may be aware of. I am still learning and do read a lot from a variety of sources. I do not believe that many vets are well versed in nutrition - maybe vet schools are changing this. I think medical doctors were accused of the same thing at one point? But thank you! I always appreciate your information and it often helps me switch gears in my thinking. Mark Mohapp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: puppy feeding
In a message dated 3/9/2003 12:17:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In reviewing research about large breed formulas I have found that most of the research was conducted by the manufacturers of dog food and pet food industry. I'm afraid this is a fact of life in terms of pet food. Even the research carried out by academia is usually funded by the large food companies. When you stop to think about it, there's no public health imperative and no economic benefit to be gained (as in food animals) to provide an impetus for government funding in this area. There's no NIH for dogs... So, I do keep in mind the funding source of research I read and I recognize the fact that what's investigated and how doesn't tell the whole story. Still, I believe it's better than nothing and you can find research conducted within an academic setting and repeated to help establish credibility. My biggest concern isn't the validity of the research, it's the fact that so many people (owners, breeders, vets) grab onto a preliminary finding or even a misinterpretation of findings and never bother to update their 'knowledge' when further study proves initial those initial assumptions to be false. This is very much the case in the common perception that protein = bad for growing large breed puppies. -Sherri Venditti
RE: puppy feeding
Hi Mark, There is some contradiction in your post. While not believing in one thing you go on in your next sentence that your rational is type of food. Large breed formulas are nearer to maintenance levels in protein and fat than other puppy and growth formulas. I used to recommend feeding adult maintenance and had shop assistants educating my owners and on more than one occasion stepped in to stop the feeding of rocket fuel growth formulas whose protein and fat levels were more suited to a cat's metabolism! Genetics will determine the outcome of health, wise management and good feeding practices will enhance it. I don't think anyone is suggesting a certain food will guarantee good joints but if you feed a high caloric food into a puppy you will get problems. Rose T.
RE: puppy feeding
Mark, Actually, there is quite a bit of research that has gone into the Large Breed puppy formulas. We used to think that percentage of protein was what determined growth, and many people still mistakenly believe that a low percentage protein food should be fed to growing Berners. (There is some truth to this, the higher percentage protein formulas also may have had higher than necessary calcium than the larger breeds needed for growing puppies.) Protein helps with muscle growth and development, the balance of calcium and phosphorous is much more important to helping regulate the growth of bone. Good points though - always try to find the supporting research, I've collected a bit of it, and I know it's out there! I'll look up my references when I get back from the Potomac Specialty if it's not available out on the web for some enterprising person... Pat Long, ( Luther) Berwyn PA
