Re: [board-discuss] Discussion about options available with marketing plan draft and timetable
Hi Andreas, @! On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 11:18 AM kainz.a wrote: > .. > As I wrote, community edition is fine for me. Fun Project, Fantastic > People will be something like a backup which describes the LibreOffice > community and can be from my point of view a bit more motivated to donate > or use an enterprise release (for companies). > Thanks for sharing this amazing concept in some past email! Let me suggest my cents (instead 'LibreOffice Community Edition') based on it: 'LibreOffice for People'. Best! Gustavo. On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 12:46 PM kainz.a wrote: > Thank Thorston > > I think the discussion was well and we have now something we can work with. > > LibreOffice Community Edition > > If we wait for another 6 months nothing will happen. Only the spirit will > go away and the community need a clear message how future will be. > > Design proposals can be done until next week meeting on 17.07. for > LibreOffice and also for the webpage if we have a go for LibreOffice > Community Edition. So that in the meeting you can vote for something to > implement. > > So please give feedback in the design irc what are the guidelines. > > Cheers > Andreas_k > > Michael Meeks schrieb am Fr., 10. Juli > 2020, 16:27: > >> >> >> On 10/07/2020 11:12, Florian Effenberger wrote: >> > With all the feedback received, I strongly propose to leave 7.0 without >> > tagging and finalize the plan for a later release. >> >> I share Thorsten's view. While I've generally been a big >> proponent of >> getting everything nailed down in one try, I would strongly prefer to >> get a weaker solution "Community Edition" out which seems to be >> collecting a weight of support against Personal. That support arriving >> even before we had a clear write-up of the issues we want to solve. >> Perhaps we can iterate it based on feedback, we at least generate some >> hard data on its effectiveness. >> >> I would also really like to avoid stalling effective improvements >> to >> our website to encourage enterprises to support the project. The >> improvements there to date have been really small and incremental, and >> as we now know ineffective. >> >> > I know there are concerns this would delay things >> > infinitely and nothing will happen, >> >> Ultimately, we're getting press, and interest, and relevance, and >> feedback from the community: integrating that into something better >> while people are interested sounds good to me. I'm sure marketing can >> turn that into a success story. >> >> It is now widely known that the status-quo is working >> extraordinarily >> poorly. Rather than accepting and extending that for six months - I'd >> prefer to use the momentum to encourage at least some improvement. >> >> > The name “Personal” excludes even small educational organizations, which >> > are a part as per slide 29. It also excludes small NGOs - thinking of >> > the local street worker office with two volunteers, or the youth care >> ... >> > but still, I think “Personal” sets the frame too strict. >> ...> Also, if we go to universities for the budgeted campus ambassador >> > program, with the above wording, even using in smaller working groups >> ... >> > I know the plan is to draw a line somewhere, but the above, at least for >> > a non-native speaker, feels quite narrow. >> >> I really don't think we want to discourage contributing to >> LibreOffice. >> That's why it's important we get our marketing right. >> >> However carving out Education, Universities, NGOs, youth care - as >> markets which should not support the project financially is really >> unhelpful. >> >> It is hard to predict the future, and the best predictions are >> sold to >> people rather than being free but checkout: >> >> https://www.gminsights.com/industry-analysis/collaboration-software-market >> >> This has a pretty pie-chart in it "Canada Collaboration Software >> Market >> share by Application 2026": >> >> >> https://www.gminsights.com/assets/img/collaboration-software-market-by-application.png >> >> Education is approaching 25% of that. >> >> In recent time, Education has been a bright point for actually >> contributing to the ecosystem. >> >> As one example - we can now build and run on iOS and tablets >> because of >> a single education area in Switzerland - as well as a big chunk of >> Adfinis and Collabora's investment. Perhaps a good thing we didn't tell >> them that they don't have to contribute or get support. >> >> Education sales has helped to fuel a similarly significant chunk >> of >> C'bras development team via sales in lockdown. >> >> It is quite unclear to me why some segments that pay for a premis, >> heating, lighting, hardware, sysadmin time, network bandwidth, >> deployment, a Windows OS ;-) and more should not be encouraged to >> contribute to LibreOffice's growth. >> >> For our friends, we can sooth their conscience and tell
Re: [board-discuss] Re: [tdf-members] Personal: and software freedom.
Hi Em 10/07/2020 09:59, Kev M escreveu: > Also to add, > > Why not call it LibreOffice Vanilla? Please don't. FWIW, vanilla out of the nerd or English-centric bubble is a flavor for ice cream or sweet dessert. Such name diminish the software, and everything else that is around LibreOffice out of this bubble. Regards -- Olivier Hallot LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator Comunidade LibreOffice Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00 http://tdf.io/joinus -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Discussion about options available with marketing plan draft and timetable
Many people from the hispanic Community is in favor of Community tag, myself included. This term identifies pretty well a group of people who are passionate, in this case about a free and open tool. However, the adoption of such an appellation must be communicated in an appropriate manner and with sufficient notice so that everyone is prepared. Having said that, I agree with Florian's statement about postponing the tag implementation until the next major version. With the definition of a timetable with the key dates involved and an strong communication strategy. El 2020-07-10 07:12, Florian Effenberger escribió: Hello, first and foremost, thanks a lot to everyone for taking on the challenging task to work on a marketing plan. I am sure this was not easy, so thanks to all of you for your work on this - and thanks to the board for the transparent communication in public! With all the feedback received, I strongly propose to leave 7.0 without tagging and finalize the plan for a later release. Let’s use this time to come to a conclusion here in public, hear the community members and find something that works for everyone. First, I doubt we will achieve something positive if we rush things through. Second, adding one tag in 7.0 and then change it to another tag in 7.1 is likely to cause confusion. Third, the demand is to have something durable (the plan covers 2020-2025), something to rely on that doesn't change all of the time. Timeline: To have a concrete timeline, I would have proposed 7.0.3 for a final decision, not only because enterprises likely rather deploy .0.3 over .0.0, but also because it will be published around our annual LibreOffice Conference in October, and as such provides a good messaging opportunity. However, I understand UI changes in minor versions are not a good idea, so 7.1 might be a better choice. I know there are concerns this would delay things infinitely and nothing will happen, but I sincerely do hope we have some options between a rock and a hard place. :-) That means driving forward a concrete timeline with deadlines, to not let this topic slip out of sight. Personal vs. Community: If I absolutely had to decide between “Personal Edition” and “Community Edition”, I would clearly favor the latter. The name “Personal” excludes even small educational organizations, which are a part as per slide 29. It also excludes small NGOs - thinking of the local street worker office with two volunteers, or the youth care facility that hosts lots of FLOSS events, or the little kindergarten in town. Also, thinking of all the other fellow FLOSS organizations or other smaller foundations who likely prepare their annual filings (which are also “strategic documents”) with LibreOffice - would we want to discourage them from using TDF-provided LibreOffice for their association tasks? Personal to me means for the individual use only. A personal website, in comparison to the website of the NGO I work for. A personal bank account, in comparison to an association one's. Now I acknowledge we don't talk about a legal license condition for LibreOffice, but about the framing and messaging - but still, I think “Personal” sets the frame too strict. Also, if we go to universities for the budgeted campus ambassador program, with the above wording, even using in smaller working groups (“I show you how to write your final thesis with LibreOffice”) could sound to be discouraged. I know the plan is to draw a line somewhere, but the above, at least for a non-native speaker, feels quite narrow. Then, I also received feedback that “Community” can be read as an open core model or there’s no understanding in the general public what an open source community is, so it might be worth rethinking this as well - which is why 7.0, to be published in a month from now, is on too short notice for introducing a tag. Relevance of Statutes and Regulations: In course of the discussion, also the statutes were mentioned several times. Although I know their history and their ideas quite well, I don’t think the discussion is so much about regulations already at this point - much more important is the mutual understanding of what we want. From that point on, let’s see what we can do. We all grow and learn, regulations change, and more than once TDF has shown it’s will and ability to fight for good things. I want to contribute that we can have this discussion in the same positive and creating spirit. Explanatory Texts: Next to the tagging, also the various texts need to be agreed on and translated, like in the start center, the about dialog and the start center sidebar - and the same thoughts as for the actual tagging apply, how strict should the frame be set. Legally, the license permits that organizations can use LibreOffice without contributing back - in the end, it’s free software. They do what the license allows them. We can't forbid it. What we want to do is to very strongly encourage them,
Re: [board-discuss] Discussion about options available with marketing plan draft and timetable
Thank Thorston I think the discussion was well and we have now something we can work with. LibreOffice Community Edition If we wait for another 6 months nothing will happen. Only the spirit will go away and the community need a clear message how future will be. Design proposals can be done until next week meeting on 17.07. for LibreOffice and also for the webpage if we have a go for LibreOffice Community Edition. So that in the meeting you can vote for something to implement. So please give feedback in the design irc what are the guidelines. Cheers Andreas_k Michael Meeks schrieb am Fr., 10. Juli 2020, 16:27: > > > On 10/07/2020 11:12, Florian Effenberger wrote: > > With all the feedback received, I strongly propose to leave 7.0 without > > tagging and finalize the plan for a later release. > > I share Thorsten's view. While I've generally been a big proponent > of > getting everything nailed down in one try, I would strongly prefer to > get a weaker solution "Community Edition" out which seems to be > collecting a weight of support against Personal. That support arriving > even before we had a clear write-up of the issues we want to solve. > Perhaps we can iterate it based on feedback, we at least generate some > hard data on its effectiveness. > > I would also really like to avoid stalling effective improvements > to > our website to encourage enterprises to support the project. The > improvements there to date have been really small and incremental, and > as we now know ineffective. > > > I know there are concerns this would delay things > > infinitely and nothing will happen, > > Ultimately, we're getting press, and interest, and relevance, and > feedback from the community: integrating that into something better > while people are interested sounds good to me. I'm sure marketing can > turn that into a success story. > > It is now widely known that the status-quo is working > extraordinarily > poorly. Rather than accepting and extending that for six months - I'd > prefer to use the momentum to encourage at least some improvement. > > > The name “Personal” excludes even small educational organizations, which > > are a part as per slide 29. It also excludes small NGOs - thinking of > > the local street worker office with two volunteers, or the youth care > ... > > but still, I think “Personal” sets the frame too strict. > ...> Also, if we go to universities for the budgeted campus ambassador > > program, with the above wording, even using in smaller working groups > ... > > I know the plan is to draw a line somewhere, but the above, at least for > > a non-native speaker, feels quite narrow. > > I really don't think we want to discourage contributing to > LibreOffice. > That's why it's important we get our marketing right. > > However carving out Education, Universities, NGOs, youth care - as > markets which should not support the project financially is really > unhelpful. > > It is hard to predict the future, and the best predictions are > sold to > people rather than being free but checkout: > > https://www.gminsights.com/industry-analysis/collaboration-software-market > > This has a pretty pie-chart in it "Canada Collaboration Software > Market > share by Application 2026": > > > https://www.gminsights.com/assets/img/collaboration-software-market-by-application.png > > Education is approaching 25% of that. > > In recent time, Education has been a bright point for actually > contributing to the ecosystem. > > As one example - we can now build and run on iOS and tablets > because of > a single education area in Switzerland - as well as a big chunk of > Adfinis and Collabora's investment. Perhaps a good thing we didn't tell > them that they don't have to contribute or get support. > > Education sales has helped to fuel a similarly significant chunk of > C'bras development team via sales in lockdown. > > It is quite unclear to me why some segments that pay for a premis, > heating, lighting, hardware, sysadmin time, network bandwidth, > deployment, a Windows OS ;-) and more should not be encouraged to > contribute to LibreOffice's growth. > > For our friends, we can sooth their conscience and tell them that > using > the Personal or Community version is just fine for them, and that we > contribute for them - or whatever =) that's easy to do personally > surely? That means we can help our friends and neighbours while not > killing the market for whole segments. > > > What we want to do is to very strongly encourage them, convince them, > > make things clear to them, because the project can only survive if there > > is sufficient funding, and the ecosystem is one of several key > > parameters for the success of TDF - we wouldn't be where we are without > > all of you, all of the community. > > Thanks for those words. > > > I find it much easier to celebrate things with a positive
Re: [board-discuss] Discussion about options available with marketing plan draft and timetable
On 10/07/2020 11:12, Florian Effenberger wrote: > With all the feedback received, I strongly propose to leave 7.0 without > tagging and finalize the plan for a later release. I share Thorsten's view. While I've generally been a big proponent of getting everything nailed down in one try, I would strongly prefer to get a weaker solution "Community Edition" out which seems to be collecting a weight of support against Personal. That support arriving even before we had a clear write-up of the issues we want to solve. Perhaps we can iterate it based on feedback, we at least generate some hard data on its effectiveness. I would also really like to avoid stalling effective improvements to our website to encourage enterprises to support the project. The improvements there to date have been really small and incremental, and as we now know ineffective. > I know there are concerns this would delay things > infinitely and nothing will happen, Ultimately, we're getting press, and interest, and relevance, and feedback from the community: integrating that into something better while people are interested sounds good to me. I'm sure marketing can turn that into a success story. It is now widely known that the status-quo is working extraordinarily poorly. Rather than accepting and extending that for six months - I'd prefer to use the momentum to encourage at least some improvement. > The name “Personal” excludes even small educational organizations, which > are a part as per slide 29. It also excludes small NGOs - thinking of > the local street worker office with two volunteers, or the youth care ... > but still, I think “Personal” sets the frame too strict. ...> Also, if we go to universities for the budgeted campus ambassador > program, with the above wording, even using in smaller working groups ... > I know the plan is to draw a line somewhere, but the above, at least for > a non-native speaker, feels quite narrow. I really don't think we want to discourage contributing to LibreOffice. That's why it's important we get our marketing right. However carving out Education, Universities, NGOs, youth care - as markets which should not support the project financially is really unhelpful. It is hard to predict the future, and the best predictions are sold to people rather than being free but checkout: https://www.gminsights.com/industry-analysis/collaboration-software-market This has a pretty pie-chart in it "Canada Collaboration Software Market share by Application 2026": https://www.gminsights.com/assets/img/collaboration-software-market-by-application.png Education is approaching 25% of that. In recent time, Education has been a bright point for actually contributing to the ecosystem. As one example - we can now build and run on iOS and tablets because of a single education area in Switzerland - as well as a big chunk of Adfinis and Collabora's investment. Perhaps a good thing we didn't tell them that they don't have to contribute or get support. Education sales has helped to fuel a similarly significant chunk of C'bras development team via sales in lockdown. It is quite unclear to me why some segments that pay for a premis, heating, lighting, hardware, sysadmin time, network bandwidth, deployment, a Windows OS ;-) and more should not be encouraged to contribute to LibreOffice's growth. For our friends, we can sooth their conscience and tell them that using the Personal or Community version is just fine for them, and that we contribute for them - or whatever =) that's easy to do personally surely? That means we can help our friends and neighbours while not killing the market for whole segments. > What we want to do is to very strongly encourage them, convince them, > make things clear to them, because the project can only survive if there > is sufficient funding, and the ecosystem is one of several key > parameters for the success of TDF - we wouldn't be where we are without > all of you, all of the community. Thanks for those words. > I find it much easier to celebrate things with a positive message than Problem is; this celebration party is great - but currently has nearly zero attendees =) The hosts are tapping their watches and wondering if they even bothered to send an invitation out =) I would really like to see some messaging that we can show is effective. > TDF is no different in this regard! We ourselves, we use lots of free > software as an organization - be it for web, database, file services, > mail, chat, conferencing and other servers. We have the skills in-house > and we often rely on pre-compiled binaries from free software projects. > We do contribute back e.g. by supporting upstream development, doing > advocacy and working together on a common goal. I think this is generally acceptable in the society of FLOSS projects because we
Re: [board-discuss] Discussion about options available with marketing plan draft and timetable
Hi Flo, *, Florian Effenberger wrote: > first and foremost, thanks a lot to everyone for taking on the challenging > task to work on a marketing plan. I am sure this was not easy, so thanks to > all of you for your work on this - and thanks to the board for the > transparent communication in public! > Seconded - the feedback here & elsewhere has been overwhelmingly positive & constructive! > With all the feedback received, I strongly propose to leave 7.0 without > tagging and finalize the plan for a later release. > I think that would be a mistake. - we see consensus forming now, around the community tag - there's a unique opportunity now, with the 10 year / 7.0 marketing push & attention we're getting - there's _additional_ attention now from the press, due to the ongoing, public discussion (quite a nice & balanced article: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/825598/21fb7c2a3f9358e7/) - instead being seen from the outside as not being able to resolve conflicts amicably & in finite time would further the impression of a project mired in internal fights I propose instead to use the available time, focus the minds, and settle on something that seems to have broad-enough support (LibreOffice Community Edition). I've seen great artwork & mockups already from the design team, and it would be a shame to let the current focus, energy & thrust fizzle out. As it inevitably will, because the next release is 6 months out, and for a project also relying on volunteers, real life will certainly take over again. One more thing: > Relevance of Statutes and Regulations: > > In course of the discussion, also the statutes were mentioned several times. > Although I know their history and their ideas quite well, I don’t think the > discussion is so much about regulations already at this point - much more > important is the mutual understanding of what we want. > Can you (perhaps in a separate mail) clearly state that with the current marketing plan, those allegations are baseless? Or if not, where perhaps some care need to be taken? > Explanatory Texts: > > Next to the tagging, also the various texts need to be agreed on and > translated, like in the start center, the about dialog and the start center > sidebar - and the same thoughts as for the actual tagging apply, how strict > should the frame be set. > Yep - but for those, I've also seen good suggestions (and I'm more willing to e.g. only have an inobtrusive banner instead of a wall of text for the start center, if that makes things more palatable). > I find it much easier to celebrate things with a positive message than with > a negative. > I agree. Two thoughts here: - I'm much happier with a text many here agree with, than no message - Whatever we do, we'll learn how effective it is, and we can iterate the approach for 7.1 But I very, very strongly feel the need to act for 7.0 - with a change that is broadly acceptable, but with a _change_. Because if every change for the LibreOffice product takes a year to iterate, any learning & adapting we can pull up will be too slow for the internet age. Cheers, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [board-discuss] Re: [tdf-members] Personal: and software freedom.
Also to add, Why not call it LibreOffice Vanilla? There's no inferences as Community or Personal have that suggest a lesser product. It's not called Plain, which sounds boring. Partners can sell Libreoffice support with the Libreoffice "powered by" or "engine" (personally engine sounds like it will lead to proprietary plug-ins) branding. As Florian wrote, if I were at an NGO, school, or some other small business, Vanilla wouldn't be a discouraging name, but it would be a reminder that I'm using the gratis version with no support. It then allows certified vendors the freedom to do their own branding of LibreOffice. (This would also solve the mascot issue because LO could have a vanilla tree as mascot which would fit the green theme. I'd like to see Tyson Tan make an anime character out of that.) Jul. 10, 2020 00:15:02 Kev M : > Nice, hadn't seen this. Thanks for pointing it out Lionel. I purchased a > license to support it. I like how they've framed it as LibreOffice Vanilla vs > LibreOffice powered by CIB. > > I agree with your other points too Lionel and you've communicated it in a way > I was looking to in an earlier post. There is definitely a gap in the ability > for small businesses and individuals who want to support the project to pay > for it. Automation is key. Though I see this CIB option is good for Windows > users, but not those that don't want to use the Microsoft Store. > > Personally, in the IT world, I usually ignore the "contact us for pricing" > vendors; you have to chat with someone for 30-60 minutes to try to get them > to tell you how expensive their software is.. it's easier just to find a > competing vendor that has a price calculator on their site. >
Re: [board-discuss] Re: [tdf-members] Personal: and software freedom.
Hey Michael, That's fair, I think then what Lionel is saying makes sense. There should be a automated/listed price version for small enterprises and individual users that want support or just to support. Maybe a different vendor would handle this segment of the market with a partnership with Collabora to provide large enterprise /corporate support. I do wonder what the market spread is for company size. Without evidence but I think there is a large segment that are SMEs that would be willing to pay for tech support if it was less than other office software. WPS Office has a whole business line on selling a $50 annual subscription to their templates. It is rather off topic but I don't see revenue as separate from the purpose of the marketing plan as it was formulated. Good luck, Kevin Jul. 10, 2020 06:01:58 Michael Meeks : > Hi Kev, > > I havn't had a chance to get back to your rather detailed and > interesting feedback en-mass; but let me respond to just this one > (nearly totally off-topic) > nugget =) > > On 10/07/2020 05:15, Kev M wrote: >> Personally, in the IT world, I usually ignore the "contact us for >> pricing" vendors; you have to chat with someone for 30-60 minutes to try >> to get them to tell you how expensive their software is.. it's easier >> just to find a competing vendor that has a price calculator on their site. > > We tried this at Collabora both ways. As a developer my instinct was > always to be as easy to do business with as possible: public pricing, no > discounts, provide as much information as possible to every inquiry so > that with minimal round-trips people have all the information to make > their own decision without having to interact with or relate to anyone etc. > > I spent my time leaning on professional sales people to tell them that > this is the right way to do business. > > But - you know, it basically doesn't work in the enterprise space (or > perhaps anywhere outside supermarkets selling ultra commodity products > ;-). It was an expensive lesson for me to learn. > > Putting less information on our website for example - increased > inquiries (no surprise), and with the friendly conversations that ensued > we managed to explain our proposition, answer any objections and then > sell (and we're not expensive of course). > > What can I say; it's not my preferred approach - but then, if it works > - and that delivers funds we can turn back into LibreOffice improvement: > needs must ... > > ATB, > > Michael. > > -- > michael.me...@collabora.com <><, GM Collabora Productivity > Hangout: mejme...@gmail.com, Skype: mmeeks > (M) +44 7795 666 147 - timezone usually UK / Europe > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Discussion about options available with marketing plan draft and timetable
Florian, I fully support what you wrote. That's it. Ciao Paolo On 10/07/2020 12:12, Florian Effenberger wrote: > Hello, > > first and foremost, thanks a lot to everyone for taking on the > challenging task to work on a marketing plan. I am sure this was not > easy, so thanks to all of you for your work on this - and thanks to > the board for the transparent communication in public! > > With all the feedback received, I strongly propose to leave 7.0 > without tagging and finalize the plan for a later release. > > Let’s use this time to come to a conclusion here in public, hear the > community members and find something that works for everyone. First, I > doubt we will achieve something positive if we rush things through. > Second, adding one tag in 7.0 and then change it to another tag in 7.1 > is likely to cause confusion. Third, the demand is to have something > durable (the plan covers 2020-2025), something to rely on that doesn't > change all of the time. > > > Timeline: > > To have a concrete timeline, I would have proposed 7.0.3 for a final > decision, not only because enterprises likely rather deploy .0.3 over > .0.0, but also because it will be published around our annual > LibreOffice Conference in October, and as such provides a good > messaging opportunity. However, I understand UI changes in minor > versions are not a good idea, so 7.1 might be a better choice. > > I know there are concerns this would delay things infinitely and > nothing will happen, but I sincerely do hope we have some options > between a rock and a hard place. :-) That means driving forward a > concrete timeline with deadlines, to not let this topic slip out of > sight. > > > Personal vs. Community: > > If I absolutely had to decide between “Personal Edition” and > “Community Edition”, I would clearly favor the latter. > > The name “Personal” excludes even small educational organizations, > which are a part as per slide 29. It also excludes small NGOs - > thinking of the local street worker office with two volunteers, or the > youth care facility that hosts lots of FLOSS events, or the little > kindergarten in town. Also, thinking of all the other fellow FLOSS > organizations or other smaller foundations who likely prepare their > annual filings (which are also “strategic documents”) with LibreOffice > - would we want to discourage them from using TDF-provided LibreOffice > for their association tasks? > > Personal to me means for the individual use only. A personal website, > in comparison to the website of the NGO I work for. A personal bank > account, in comparison to an association one's. Now I acknowledge we > don't talk about a legal license condition for LibreOffice, but about > the framing and messaging - but still, I think “Personal” sets the > frame too strict. > > Also, if we go to universities for the budgeted campus ambassador > program, with the above wording, even using in smaller working groups > (“I show you how to write your final thesis with LibreOffice”) could > sound to be discouraged. > > I know the plan is to draw a line somewhere, but the above, at least > for a non-native speaker, feels quite narrow. > > Then, I also received feedback that “Community” can be read as an open > core model or there’s no understanding in the general public what an > open source community is, so it might be worth rethinking this as well > - which is why 7.0, to be published in a month from now, is on too > short notice for introducing a tag. > > > Relevance of Statutes and Regulations: > > In course of the discussion, also the statutes were mentioned several > times. Although I know their history and their ideas quite well, I > don’t think the discussion is so much about regulations already at > this point - much more important is the mutual understanding of what > we want. From that point on, let’s see what we can do. We all grow and > learn, regulations change, and more than once TDF has shown it’s will > and ability to fight for good things. I want to contribute that we can > have this discussion in the same positive and creating spirit. > > > Explanatory Texts: > > Next to the tagging, also the various texts need to be agreed on and > translated, like in the start center, the about dialog and the start > center sidebar - and the same thoughts as for the actual tagging > apply, how strict should the frame be set. > > Legally, the license permits that organizations can use LibreOffice > without contributing back - in the end, it’s free software. They do > what the license allows them. We can't forbid it. > > What we want to do is to very strongly encourage them, convince them, > make things clear to them, because the project can only survive if > there is sufficient funding, and the ecosystem is one of several key > parameters for the success of TDF - we wouldn't be where we are > without all of you, all of the community. > > I find it much easier to celebrate things with a positive message than > with a
Re: [board-discuss] Re: Some problems.
Am 08.07.20 um 16:44 schrieb Kev M: > I also think someone earlier referenced that this could be > interpreted as being against the TDF bylaws, so those might need to > be changed anyway. This is a big part of the problem because this is exactly an option that cannot be done - at least not in a way that will not end in a situation in which ~all assets of the TDF get lost. -- Mit freundlichen Grüßen Uwe Altmann -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] Discussion about options available with marketing plan draft and timetable
Hello, first and foremost, thanks a lot to everyone for taking on the challenging task to work on a marketing plan. I am sure this was not easy, so thanks to all of you for your work on this - and thanks to the board for the transparent communication in public! With all the feedback received, I strongly propose to leave 7.0 without tagging and finalize the plan for a later release. Let’s use this time to come to a conclusion here in public, hear the community members and find something that works for everyone. First, I doubt we will achieve something positive if we rush things through. Second, adding one tag in 7.0 and then change it to another tag in 7.1 is likely to cause confusion. Third, the demand is to have something durable (the plan covers 2020-2025), something to rely on that doesn't change all of the time. Timeline: To have a concrete timeline, I would have proposed 7.0.3 for a final decision, not only because enterprises likely rather deploy .0.3 over .0.0, but also because it will be published around our annual LibreOffice Conference in October, and as such provides a good messaging opportunity. However, I understand UI changes in minor versions are not a good idea, so 7.1 might be a better choice. I know there are concerns this would delay things infinitely and nothing will happen, but I sincerely do hope we have some options between a rock and a hard place. :-) That means driving forward a concrete timeline with deadlines, to not let this topic slip out of sight. Personal vs. Community: If I absolutely had to decide between “Personal Edition” and “Community Edition”, I would clearly favor the latter. The name “Personal” excludes even small educational organizations, which are a part as per slide 29. It also excludes small NGOs - thinking of the local street worker office with two volunteers, or the youth care facility that hosts lots of FLOSS events, or the little kindergarten in town. Also, thinking of all the other fellow FLOSS organizations or other smaller foundations who likely prepare their annual filings (which are also “strategic documents”) with LibreOffice - would we want to discourage them from using TDF-provided LibreOffice for their association tasks? Personal to me means for the individual use only. A personal website, in comparison to the website of the NGO I work for. A personal bank account, in comparison to an association one's. Now I acknowledge we don't talk about a legal license condition for LibreOffice, but about the framing and messaging - but still, I think “Personal” sets the frame too strict. Also, if we go to universities for the budgeted campus ambassador program, with the above wording, even using in smaller working groups (“I show you how to write your final thesis with LibreOffice”) could sound to be discouraged. I know the plan is to draw a line somewhere, but the above, at least for a non-native speaker, feels quite narrow. Then, I also received feedback that “Community” can be read as an open core model or there’s no understanding in the general public what an open source community is, so it might be worth rethinking this as well - which is why 7.0, to be published in a month from now, is on too short notice for introducing a tag. Relevance of Statutes and Regulations: In course of the discussion, also the statutes were mentioned several times. Although I know their history and their ideas quite well, I don’t think the discussion is so much about regulations already at this point - much more important is the mutual understanding of what we want. From that point on, let’s see what we can do. We all grow and learn, regulations change, and more than once TDF has shown it’s will and ability to fight for good things. I want to contribute that we can have this discussion in the same positive and creating spirit. Explanatory Texts: Next to the tagging, also the various texts need to be agreed on and translated, like in the start center, the about dialog and the start center sidebar - and the same thoughts as for the actual tagging apply, how strict should the frame be set. Legally, the license permits that organizations can use LibreOffice without contributing back - in the end, it’s free software. They do what the license allows them. We can't forbid it. What we want to do is to very strongly encourage them, convince them, make things clear to them, because the project can only survive if there is sufficient funding, and the ecosystem is one of several key parameters for the success of TDF - we wouldn't be where we are without all of you, all of the community. I find it much easier to celebrate things with a positive message than with a negative. As such, I seriously doubt we will convince people and bring across a good message if we communicate with too strong words. Positive wording and directions are always better than negative. And I think it's also much
Re: [board-discuss] Re: [tdf-members] Personal: and software freedom.
Hi Kev, I havn't had a chance to get back to your rather detailed and interesting feedback en-mass; but let me respond to just this one (nearly totally off-topic) nugget =) On 10/07/2020 05:15, Kev M wrote: > Personally, in the IT world, I usually ignore the "contact us for > pricing" vendors; you have to chat with someone for 30-60 minutes to try > to get them to tell you how expensive their software is.. it's easier > just to find a competing vendor that has a price calculator on their site. We tried this at Collabora both ways. As a developer my instinct was always to be as easy to do business with as possible: public pricing, no discounts, provide as much information as possible to every inquiry so that with minimal round-trips people have all the information to make their own decision without having to interact with or relate to anyone etc. I spent my time leaning on professional sales people to tell them that this is the right way to do business. But - you know, it basically doesn't work in the enterprise space (or perhaps anywhere outside supermarkets selling ultra commodity products ;-). It was an expensive lesson for me to learn. Putting less information on our website for example - increased inquiries (no surprise), and with the friendly conversations that ensued we managed to explain our proposition, answer any objections and then sell (and we're not expensive of course). What can I say; it's not my preferred approach - but then, if it works - and that delivers funds we can turn back into LibreOffice improvement: needs must ... ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, GM Collabora Productivity Hangout: mejme...@gmail.com, Skype: mmeeks (M) +44 7795 666 147 - timezone usually UK / Europe -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[board-discuss] Re: [tdf-members] Personal: and software freedom.
Nice, hadn't seen this. Thanks for pointing it out Lionel. I purchased a license to support it. I like how they've framed it as LibreOffice Vanilla vs LibreOffice powered by CIB. I agree with your other points too Lionel and you've communicated it in a way I was looking to in an earlier post. There is definitely a gap in the ability for small businesses and individuals who want to support the project to pay for it. Automation is key. Though I see this CIB option is good for Windows users, but not those that don't want to use the Microsoft Store. Personally, in the IT world, I usually ignore the "contact us for pricing" vendors; you have to chat with someone for 30-60 minutes to try to get them to tell you how expensive their software is.. it's easier just to find a competing vendor that has a price calculator on their site.
