Re: [Boston.pm] academic use of Perl
To be effective at growing the pool of Perl programmers I think Perl needs to be used in a general course that isn't specifically about Perl or some specialty that is already well entrenched with Perl. Exactly. The wolf book would make an excellent text-book for a beginner's guide to algorythms (for non-CS majors?). -- H4sICNoBwDoAA3NpZwA9jbsNwDAIRHumuC4NklvXTOD0KSJEnwU8fHz4Q8M9i3sGzkS7BBrm OkCTwsycb4S3DloZuMIYeXpLFqw5LaMhXC2ymhreVXNWMw9YGuAYdfmAbwomoPSyFJuFn2x8 Opr8bBBidcc= -- MOTD on Setting Orange, the 60th of Chaos, in the YOLD 3171: Quoth the raven, Nevermore! ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] Certification
Here, here... The perl community already has a certification that matters and would convince any PHB that the person they were hiring was a good candidate. The Perl Advocacy question is a separate one for reasons I will show below. In short our current certification goes like this, hypothetically... My name is Tim Bunce and I wrote the DBI module, see: http://dbi.perl.org/, and the book Programming the Perl DBI. DBI is used on the following Fortune 2000 companies websites. This framework is the standard for database access in the Perl community. I could go on but this is my point. In the interview process what have I learned about Tim Bunce even if I don't know anything about Perl. 1) He is capable of creating world class software that has been voluntarily adopted by his community and used in real world business applications. 2) His communications skills are proved by the book and the book's utility can be shown by its sales. 3) He saw a hole in the market and wrote software to fill that hole and wrote it in such a way that it can be used by others and adopted as a standard in the community. 4) I have never met him but from all reports he has good personality and would probably be a pleasure to work with: see: http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/alanbur/20040920 5) He did this entirely of his own initiative. So am I confident that with a person like this on a project, regardless of the language choice, would be a great addition to any development team, and even better if it was Perl. Perl given its low barriers to entry becomes a natural meritocracy and Tim Bunce has reached the top of the heap. There are other examples in the community of course. This is a certification that really matters. This is the great thing about Open Source game in general good information about the best players move the best to the top naturally. Even if there was a certification process who would you rather hire a random certified Perl hacker or Tim Bunce all other things being equal? Would your precious time be better spent getting a certification or putting a fantastic module on search.cpan.org that handles a real world problem and extends the language into new areas? Perl Advocacy: Certification would not help Perl advocacy alone. Marketing Perl Requires Marketing. Java is marketed by Sun and C# is marketed by Microsoft, millions of dollars are spent making the decision makers that hire the technical staff think that language X (and its supporting software) is the future and all other languages are bad investments. From the business point of view people are making the switch from Java to C# because (regardless of the technical facts which I am not arguing here) because they think Microsoft could buy Sun with the spare change on Bill's nightstand and Microsoft doesn't because they don't think Sun is a good investment. In some decision making processes, the technical aspects of the decision is secondary to the cost of having an expensive future transition on Microsoft's schedule or having to defend your IT investments to the other business people who judge the value of the technical solution by the value of the business that represents that solution. On the technical end, given the right staff, all technical problems (based on language given that the language is kept up to date) are equal. The likely staff needed for the given language and the likelihood that the language will be kept up to date becomes the problem for the hiring manager. Certification can give an inexperienced hiring manager the belief that he can treat the development staff he hires like interchangeable parts. Experienced hiring managers understand that the qualities that set Tim Bunce apart cannot be demonstrated by a simple certification. The bigger problem is does the hiring manger know that jobs.perl.org is a good place to find Perl developers? An ad like: 7000 experienced Perl developers read jobs.perl.org every week. in front of the hiring manager would be better use of the communities resources than a certification process. The only benefit of the certification is to get your resume past the non-technical HR person's keyword based sorting of resumes. The nice thing about Perl without certifications is that the keyword is Perl not Perl Cert Version X. Starting down the certification path in a language means that you _must_ get the certification to get past the HR filters. This is to the benefit of the certification business, it adds to the expense in time and money to the individual developer, and once the certification becomes popular it can't be used to get your resume to the top of the pile. If you are planning to set up a Perl certification business I can't argue with your business model, but for the individual developer, not a good idea unless you have to. Your time is better spent finding a hole in the Perl offering and creating and publishing an
Re: [Boston.pm] (also) Perl
hi ( 05.02.28 21:07 -0500 ) James Linden Rose, III: However Mr. Shwartz's model of the problem does not reflect majority opinion with respect to the breadth of the issue, (especially as it seems to be peppered with idealism and anti-capitalism). whoa- idealism and anti-capitalism smells like free spirit Eh, let us return to my earlier point... a prominent and vocal MINORITY. i don't think this is an issue that's resolved solely by democratic means- what about the merits of the arguments? what about the process of trading opinions? 'because a lot of other people want it' is not a very compelling reason to people who make up their own minds. instead of trying to 'win' the argument on the boston.pm list, you might be better off just trying to set up a certification program. [then the real work will begin] Industry would welcome a more qualified system which addresses specific skills as well. especially the certification industry ... -- \js oblique strategy: do something boring ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] (also) Perl
On Monday, February 28, 2005, at 10:54 PM, Ben Tilly wrote: In an interview what you just said would make me worried. You're using a technique that you don't understand. Interesting that you've imagined yourself in a position to be interviewing me. Not a very likely scenario though. However Mr. Shwartz's model of the problem does not reflect majority opinion with respect to the breadth of the issue, When you misspelled Schwartzian transform, I thought it was possibly a typo. But you've made the same mistake again. His name is Schwartz. With a silent c in it. Agree or disagree with him, it is polite to get his name correct. It must really suck not to have anything relevant to certification to say, and yet wanting to say so much so badly. Back handed personal attacks seldom further your point of view. Future advice, people who start and run their own businesses are seldom anti-capitalistic. If you think that they are being so, then you're probably missing something important about how they perceive their own economic interests. A lecture about what people who start and run their own business are like? PLEASE TELL ME MORE! Randal speaks a little on his interest in money on the page you suggested, and I don't think this would be characterized as naked capitalist greed: I've worked too hard over the past decade to help this community in as many free ways as I can, and get paid for the things that I have to get paid for so that I can put food on the table and pay for my net access. In a straw poll of the 3 programmers sitting closest to me, one was slightly against, one slightly for, and one didn't care. I think that that's probably representative. Well, gee, I had no idea that the guy next to you agrees... MIT is also the school which introduced Scheme as a way of introducing programming. Point being? I doubt that Carnegie-Mellon teaches a course whose purpose is to specifically help you pass the MCSE. Point being? (If it does, I guarantee that I can find people in the department who're not very happy about it.) I think you misunderstand why the great technical schools are so great. Rule 1: They seldom get caught up in the mental masturbation of the impractical. Having sold MIT to industry for 7 years in a past life I can safely say that its close ties to the practical concerns of industry are its greatest strength, and why an MIT education prepares students to be relevant to the real world. Hire somebody from a school more caught up in ivory tower snobbery, and you have to wait at least a year before they come up to speed. Furthermore even in professional schools (medicine, law, etc), while the school may provide practical training, the faculty are still expected to participate in (and are likely to be primarily judged on) research. That's certainly true of both schools that you mention. You use every misdirection debating technique in existence. Engineering research is hardly academia. At least at MIT and to a lesser extent CMU, it is almost always looking toward a practical application. Net result: 4,000 MIT related companies. 12 Nobel prize winners on staff. The deepest industrial ties of any school in the world. I stand by my comment that, charter's notwithstanding, universities are not supposed to be in the business of vocational training. (Although they are often pushed in that direction, particularly by students and parents of students who go there to help job prospects.) Sigh. Yes. They are not votech schools teaching welding and oil filter replacement. This might work out, or might not. I'm inclined towards pessimism, but have no real evidence supporting that. It would make life easier for companies that need to hire Perl programmers for basic routine programming jobs. Its not a guru netting tool, but gurus are not what many companies need. I would love to have somebody to take over many of the mundane Perl tasks I have at my company one day. I don't need to hire a Randal or a Larry nearly as much as I need somebody basically trained. Somebody I can trust to do basic level tasks so I can focus on growth and marketing. ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
[Boston.pm] [ADMIN] Request from the list administrator
If people have more to add to the discussion on certification, please stay on topic and cease the personal attacks. Ronald ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
RE: [Boston.pm] Certification
First, I would like to compliment and express broad general agreement with everything James Freeman said in his response to the following message. Second, I would like to express specific agreement with Adam Turoff's expression of the crux of the problem. Expressing agreement takes much less typing than expressing an opinion. Now, to address Greg's message below... From: Greg London Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 11:10 PM Subject: [Boston.pm] Certification I think I just figured out why this conversation is going nowhere. The pro-certification folks think that certification would help convince a non-technical manager to use perl for a project. The programmers would determine that perl is the right language for the job on a technical basis. The manager would use a oijia board and certification to determine that perl is the best language to use for the job. And everyone would be happy. It's a very specific condition. Programmers determine perl is the best technical language for job. Manager needs some non-technical convincing. Certification convinces manager. Everyone is happy. Rather than address this rather specific situation, however, the anti-certification folks, denounce certification as communist (red scare anyone?), spread fears of total bifurcation of the entire Perl community, and warn of the zombie army of braindead programmers with Perl Certificates taking over the job market. It's Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt at it's finest. You guys got Bill Gates and his Linux FUD beat hands down. How exactly did logic get thrown out the window with this? A. I must point out that logic is irrelevant. Briefly: + People are not logical. + Gödel. If logic were the answer _here_, then the answer to a manager consider using Perl would be a logical argument based on the application, not waving a certification in his face. The manager is not logical, and neither is anyone else. The goal is for people and their arguments to be rational, not logical. B. My contention that certifications are socialist is only FUD if you are afraid of socialism, uncertain as to what it is, or in doubt of the same. Your own cry of red scare seems to be less of a logical argument against my assertion than an attempt to make people think of Joe McCarthy. Perhaps you are not aware that there were communists spies working in the US. You further seem to be conflating Soviet communism with socialism. But this is hardly the place for a history or social sciences lecture. C. You say that the anti-certification people fail to address the specific case you present. This is somewhat of a cheat, as you are only now presenting your specific case, so obviously no one could have addressed it beforehand. But I'll gladly address it. C.1. If you are a programmer who thinks Perl is the right answer, and your manager thinks Perl is the wrong answer, and few or none of your coworkers think you are right, then you are wrong. Why? Because it does not matter what the technical merits of a language are if no one understands the language and can manage the risks associated with that language. If your coworkers dont know Perl, then you being certified will not help them know Perl. If your manager does not understand the risks associated with picking a given Perl version or set of Perl features to use, then you being certified will not help him know that. C.2. If you are a spiffy junior programmer who knows all about how great Perl is and thinks your coworkers are silly for using Java, C#, C++, and so forth, then you need more experience with things other than Perl. Perl certification will just signal your narrow-mindedness. C.3. If you are an experienced programmer, with coworkers who know Perl quite well, and you are validly correct that Perl would be better than the choice your manager wants to make, and your manager does not care what you say, then you have a social problem with your manager and you should consider employment elsewhere. Perl certification will not prevent you from having poor social skills or working for a jerk. How'd we get from Perl-Certification-Manager-Accepts-Perl to the four horsemen of the friggen apocolypse??? It happened in your mind when you built your straw-man. Just a refresher to those who were busy doing assembly programming during their logic courses: The person making the assertion is shouldered with the burden of evidence. Perhaps you were in the wrong class. You seem to be thinking of the debate club. The only assertion I've made in favor of certification is that a manager who doesn't use the technical aspects of the languages to choose which language to use might be persuaded in favor of perl if perl certification were available. This seems to be true. It certainly seems safe to say that perl certification won't cause a manager to NOT choose perl. Therefore certification is at WORST, no worse than it is now, at best an encouragement for
Re: [Boston.pm] GUI builders, support tools
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sean, old boy, I'm astounded. Are you not aware that I've been doing exactly this using emacs? Daily? For more than 20 years now? It's called find-tag . . . For the less Emacs-savvy, the speedbar package may be ideal. It shows the functions in a side window (speedbar) and you can jump to them with the mouse. Comes with Emacs. Very handy together with cperl-mode. Ted ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] perl6/pugs (ook!)
I like bananas and have been using the Ook programming language and Ook# .Net framework for a large number of corporate projects. For example, since the phone conversations of many younger teenagers probably consists of apeish grunts, it is entirely logical to write cell phone applications in a language designed to be written by orangutans. http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/ook.html On 28.Feb.2005 11:12AM -0800, Ben Tilly wrote: Ruby is easier for Perl people to get into than Haskell. By the same token, learning Ruby will expand your horizons less than Haskell. -- Ian Langworth Project Guerrilla Northeastern University College of Computer and Information Science ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] perl6/pugs (ook!)
I like bananas and have been using the Ook programming language and Ook# .Net framework for a large number of corporate projects. For example, since the phone conversations of many younger teenagers probably consists of apeish grunts, it is entirely logical to write cell phone applications in a language designed to be written by orangutans. http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/ook.html On 28.Feb.2005 11:12AM -0800, Ben Tilly wrote: Ruby is easier for Perl people to get into than Haskell. By the same token, learning Ruby will expand your horizons less than Haskell. -- Ian Langworth Project Guerrilla Northeastern University College of Computer and Information Science ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
RE: [Boston.pm] Bottom Up
Can someone remind me why Perl needs to be more popular? What actual problem will be solved? Are we running low on module developers? Running low on core developers? Is the existing code-base evaporating? Are there not enough t-shirt and book sales? How will we know when Perl is popular enough? Wouldn't it be easier to just trash the reputations of other languages? Should we have existing Perl users use Perl more often? I think your target audience is a little skewed from the original threads purpose. I don't recall anyone claiming that their are not enough programmers. I believe the problem was not enough unknowledgable, perl-accepting decision makers. It doesn't need to be more popular though. Nor does it need to be accepted by non-technical decision makers. These are not necessities. I just really liked programming in Perl for all those years, but since having a job means more to me than being able to choose which language I use in my job, I am now a C# programmer. This because perl was not popular enough to be supported by my non-technical and technical managers. I'm not complaining about learning a new language, I just really liked perl. It's almost like being laid off from a corporation because not enough customers wanted to purchase their product. So it is that I am no longer a perl programmer (defined by the language I use 50 hours a week as opposed to the language I use 5 hours a week on side projects). I am confident that, had perl more acceptance by those not in the know, the decision would have been made differently. And it's like they had to choose between the two languages as all of our legacy code is written in perl. Almost everything in-house is. It still did not prevent them from deciding that Perl was not supported enough to continue using it. How will we know when Perl is popular enough? Oooh.. this ones easy. When my boss comes to me and says use Perl for this next project. I wouldn't ask for more perl popularity than that. I hope I made the problem at hand more clear. -John ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] (also) Perl
I think we're still getting ahead of ourselves here. YES, we are all Perl programmers and love Perl. That doesn't mean we have to see eye-to-eye on ANYTHING else. It'd be nice. But who are we kidding. We're all different. I bring this up to help wash over some of these extraneous issues: Another worst case for certification is that the community bifurcates from those who are rabidly anti-certification, and they take their efforts and talents elsewhere. And their patches. And stop maintaining their modules. A good programmer is a good programmer. A good person is a good person. If someone is going to stop programming in Perl simply because it becomes popular (and therfore flooded with lesser programmers), then that person is REALLY immature and (I hate to say it) an idiot. There are good reasons to do a lot of things. But stopping from doing something good that you love simply because other people are doing it too just sounds a little too a-la-13-year-old for me to really put much care into. Good riddens I say. - there is no demonstrable evidence that there is a mass of programmers ready to use Perl, if only there were a certification they could get We're talking need based. If a certification program were created, then managers would want more Perl programmers, then the need for new Perl programmers would increase, and people would respond. That IS demonstrated. It's economics 101. This is incredibly well documented. - there is no demonstrable evidence that there is a pool of employers that do not use Perl simply because there are no certified applicants We've listed several instances where the manager/boss simply doesn't know enough to know that Perl is a good thing. This whole discussion is in an attempt to find ways to make managers see that Perl is real and respectable. we believe that certification would HELP in this manner. - Many Perl trainers are vehemently anti-certification. A certification without a supporting training curriculum is dead in the water. Again, if people want to be stupid, they can be. If you're a talented Perl programmer who can train other people, then you're in good standing to make more money and teach MORE people how to program Perl better than if they learned elsewhere or on their own. If you want to flee because it gets popular... again you're immature and an idiot. Sorry. Plus there are, as you said plenty of other Perl Gurus (some on this list) who are definitely capable, and probably willing. Again we're trying to better the Perl communittee. If trainers are going to run away now, then they don't have the Perl comunittee in their list of interests. - Lots of programmers have a whole litany of excuses as to why they avoid using Perl. Ugly code is one. Excessive use of punctuation is another. Impenetrable regular expressions a third. Odd OOP practices a fourth. And so on. Lack of certification options is almost never a reason for programmers to not use Perl. Again, you're talking about programmers here. Better programming practices can be solved in a number of different ways and times. Right now, we're trying to convince the bosses. The bosses are not going to know or understand any of the above. Perl is NOT the solution to all problems. But it IS the solution to far more problems than managers are aware. - Another reason why Perl is a minority language is that it's not used in academic curricula. Certification will not solve that problem, either. We'll still have a glut of VB, Java and C# programmers after a certification is done. Actually WPI, and other education institutions are starting to ban the use of PHP and other languages due to bugginess and insecurities. WPI does most of its programming in Perl; by the end of the summer we shoudl be entirely PHP-free. And proud of it! - One reason why many shops avoid Perl is the lack of vendor support. Certification does nothing to address this. Verndors avoid Perl, because you don't NEED anything to program perl. So they can't make any money off it. This is actually a selling point ot managers. Perl is WAY cheaper than most other languages that you can compare it to. You don't need any expensive software or hardware to use it. - Even with a certification program, the underlying problems with Perl still need to be addressed: mod_perl is too hard to manage in many situations, applications like RT take entirely too much work to install, and so on. [1] Again, back on the programming side of things. Certificaiton might actually help with this. It might open up more opportunities for further education and training in Perl. Once Java certification came about a lot of people wanted to learn more. So more training facilities openned up to do
[Boston.pm] THE NAZIS HAD A CERTIFICATION FOR PERL
But then, you can't invoke Godwin deliberately, can you? Wasn't mentioning [implicitly, national] socialism close enough? No? Damn. -- Chris Devers, fascinated just how many thousands of words this thread has produced, and yet managed to clarify exactly nothing while doing so ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] advocacy
See, now we're talking Alex Brelsfoard wrote: What about a website advertising scheme? Make a really neat/interesting/technological website based out of Perl and then see if we could get some companies to advertsie it (such as O'Reilly, Apache, and Google)? Why make something that already exists? If Amazon, Yahoo, Ticketmaster, etc. are already using Perl in a big way, then why not put effort into making that more visible? Well it's just one of many possible idea. I was hoping for more ideas based off it. Such as your email ;) Tom Metro wrote: One way is through a silly button campaign. Built with Perl, Powered by Perl, whatever. We've all seen them around for other products. I've even seen them for Perl, though I don't recall there being any standard or effort to encourage them. I like it. I like it a lot. --Alex ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] advocacy
When it comes to large companies, that real estate becomes valuable territory and they're not going to donate it for free. The technology you use is an internal decision. It has no relevance to the customer. What is the business case for putting it out there? If you're going to ruin your branding by advertising something, any healthy business is going to advertise something that makes them money. But if we already KNOW that they use Perl, and all we're asking for is a little stamp somewhere saying Made with Perl or whatever that's not really giving anything away. I understand if developing companies don't want to divulge such information. But what is Amazon really worried about? --Alex ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
RE: [Boston.pm] THE NAZIS HAD A CERTIFICATION FOR PERL
Right. The horse is dead. Please stop beating it. Dear Ronald, as our fearless leader will you please ask everyone to stop all these threads on certification and advocacy. Now I know why there are literally millions of matches in Google. This topic draws in people like flies to Hopefully helpfully yours, Steve -- Steve TolkinSteve . Tolkin at FMR dot COM 617-563-0516 Fidelity Investments 82 Devonshire St. V4D Boston MA 02109 There is nothing so practical as a good theory. Comments are by me, not Fidelity Investments, its subsidiaries or affiliates. -Original Message- From: Chris Devers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 2:50 PM To: Boston Perl Mongers Subject: [Boston.pm] THE NAZIS HAD A CERTIFICATION FOR PERL But then, you can't invoke Godwin deliberately, can you? Wasn't mentioning [implicitly, national] socialism close enough? No? Damn. -- Chris Devers, fascinated just how many thousands of words this thread has produced, and yet managed to clarify exactly nothing while doing so ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] academic use of Perl
Adam Turoff wrote: - Another reason why Perl is a minority language is that it's not used in academic curricula. An interesting point. Sean Quinlan writes: I agree. I'd love to hear suggestions how to work on that. We teach some Perl at BU, both under the bioinformatics program and in some short tutorials, and I'm hoping to expand on that. I seem to recall Harvard having some courses. To be effective at growing the pool of Perl programmers I think Perl needs to be used in a general course that isn't specifically about Perl or some specialty that is already well entrenched with Perl. I wish to clerify a comment about WPI's policy on Perl. My previous statment was from the NON-academic side of WPI. So the school's servers do no accept PHP. But the courses at WPI accept just about all languages. Courses are taught non-language specific. but seeing as how PHP is no longer supported on our servers, students can no longer run tests on our servers unless they use an acceptable programming language. Perl is becoming more common among our students for this very reason. --Alex ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] Bottom Up
5. Clean up CPAN. The egalitarian nature of CPAN is commendable. However, quality and activity vary widely and redundancy is rampant. A baitPerhaps we should require people to hold certifications before they contribute code./ You are right about CPAN. CPAN's hugeness and uneven quality is intimidating -- I can't learn Perl! Look at all the modules I have to know how to use! -- and impenetrable -- How can I know if Bob's brand new version 0.03 module is better than Joe's 3-year old version 9.72 module? I see this problem as insoluble, but it'd be great if someone solved it anyway. My beef with CPAN is the fact that there is some administrative work involved with writing a perl program that uses a CPAN module. After I write it, I can't email it to a perl neophyte and say here, run this. Instead, I have to say first you need to get an admin to install a bunch of modules. Once I get to the word admin, I get laughed at. Is there a CPAN distribution just as there are Linux distributions? In other words, a collection of CPAN modules that one can install as a bundle rather than having to use the perl -MCPAN install module_that_wont_compile? ActiveState provides PPM which take a lot of pain out of CPAN since so much stuff just doesn't compile on Windows, but modules that don't compile are simply excluded from the PPM database. Also, some Linux distributions have packages that bundle a bunch of perl modules together, unfortunately, they only work with that Linux distro. I would prefer a standard distribution of modules for all platforms beyond the limited stuff that comes with the perl install. -- , , , | Duane Bronson /|/|/| , | [EMAIL PROTECTED] ( ( ( |/| | http://www.nerdlogic.com/ \( | | 453 Washington St. #4A, Boston, MA 02111 |/| (617) 515-2909 ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] advocacy
Strictly speaking I don't think advertisement did much for Java. Sure, you see lots of ads for Java related products now, which maintains a high visibility for Java, but they exist because the Java market exists. Sure it did. Again, we're talking more about managers and boss types. When a boss decides a companmy is a competitor do you really think that they are not going to find out how their prodecuts are made? And if they go to their competitor's site and see that it was Made with Java, do you really think that this will not peak their interest? If they didn't know anything about Java before then, after then they know that Java was being used by someone they respected. Ads may not be THE answer for Perl, but I can has to help. IMHO. --Alex ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] Bottom Up
hi ( 05.03.01 14:21 -0500 ) Greg London: What if O'Reilley (or someone) set up a website that did free (or low cost) online certification? what if you did that. What it requires is a community spirit, and a little bit of generousity from its members to grant it the possibility of being. i don't think so. what it requires is for somebody to *do the work*. as you've found out, this [and other] topics can generate a lot of postings to an email list. but you won't get any closer to your holy grail of perl certification without somebody actually doing something besides posting to an email list. -- \js oblique strategy: openly resist change ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] Bottom Up
John Saylor said: hi ( 05.03.01 14:21 -0500 ) Greg London: What if O'Reilley (or someone) set up a website that did free (or low cost) online certification? what if you did that. brilliant. Rather than focus on the goal, shift focus on how impossible it appears to get there. never mind that the Bazaar model might actually produce an answer that you never thought of. Just kill the conversation. Obstruct it. confound it. get it off the list. Turn it into a cathedral model. require that the person asking the question also provide the answer. don't allow discussion. Demand the individual do the work themselves. don't allow the bazaar to produce a result you can't control. strategy: openly resist change yeah, I get that about you. Did I mention I'm done trying to move the unmovable? Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Cause all you're doing right now is obstructing. ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] Bottom Up
hi ( 05.03.01 14:21 -0500 ) Greg London: What if O'Reilley (or someone) set up a website that did free (or low cost) online certification? John Saylor said: what if you did that. ( 05.03.01 15:59 -0500 ) Greg London: brilliant. Rather than focus on the goal, shift focus on how impossible it appears to get there. i'm sorry but you appear to be of your mind. i thought that *was* the goal [for you], certification. i'm not saying anything's impossible, i'm just tired of hearing you gripe about the fact that not everyone sees things the same way you do. i think we can both agree that perl certification won't get done on the boston.pm mailing list. all i'm saying is stop complaining and *do* something about it beside try to convince people on this list that you are 'correct'. and i think you've completely misread the cathedral and the bazaar. have you ever heard, 'release early and often'? well, i was saying release something. strategy: openly resist change yeah, I get that about you. btw- they are OBLIQUE strategies, from brian eno. Cause all you're doing right now is obstructing. all you're doing is whining. and all we're doing is calling each other names on a public mailing list. see, we have something in common after all ... -- \js oblique strategy: adding on ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] (also) Perl
The crux of the problem, is that these questions aren't getting answered: - Can we create a certification that will deliver benefits X, Y and Z? Yes. No one said it would be easy or happen tomorrow. - Is certification a necessary precondition for X, Y and Z? - Aren't problems X', Y' and Z' really caused by something else, not the lack of certification? Certification is not Necessary for anything. It's just something trying to help out a situation. It's not THE solution. It's part of the solution. - Are X, Y and Z important? Desirable? Achievable? Importatn enough for us to argue over it. I know that doesn't really mean much. But the lack of respect that Perl gets has caused a lot of pain, problems, and waste (of time, money, and effort). - Shouldn't we really be focusing on A, B and C instead? We should keep our minds and attention available to a lot of things. As I said, this is not THE solution; it is merely a part of it. Other things need to be considered as well. --Alex ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] Bottom Up
John Saylor wrote: ( 05.03.01 14:21 -0500 ) Greg London: What if O'Reilley (or someone) set up a website that did free (or low cost) online certification? John Saylor said: what if you did that. ( 05.03.01 15:59 -0500 ) Greg London: brilliant. Rather than focus on the goal, shift focus on how impossible it appears to get there. i'm sorry but you appear to be of your mind. i thought that *was* the goal [for you], certification. i'm not saying anything's impossible, i'm just tired of hearing you gripe about the fact that not everyone sees things the same way you do. certification is the goal. I don't know how to get there. I thought maybe some folks on the list might be able to come up with an answer if we put our heads together and brainstorm. My only gripe is that it never gets to that point of an actual brainstorm. Instead, some people feel the need to bring up socialists and fractured communities, and now your demand that I do it myself (dont ask, just do it), before an actual brainstorming bazaar can occur. My question is what if someone provided certification that was free to programmers but caused the corporate world to adopt perl? I never claimed to have the answer. I was asking the list an open ended question. Must you stand in the way of some people even having a simple conversation about it? This list is boiling down to the lowest common denominator. Unless everyone agrees to allow the conversation, a single person can obstruct the whole thing. ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
[Boston.pm] Anyone know of an alternative to perldoc.com?
Does anyone know of an alternative to the package listing for perl versions that used to be on perldoc.com? Perldoc.com has been unreachable for a couple of weeks now. I used it quite a bit to determine what modules I needed for specific versions of perl for software distributions, and it's a real pain having to find unmolested machines to test for packages. Thanks, Grant M. -- Grant M. NeonEdge...Web Pages by Design http://www.neonedge.com/ ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] Anyone know of an alternative to perldoc.com?
On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 12:22:47AM -0500, Grant M. wrote: Does anyone know of an alternative to the package listing for perl versions that used to be on perldoc.com? Perldoc.com has been unreachable for a couple of weeks now. I used it quite a bit to determine what modules I needed for specific versions of perl for software distributions, and it's a real pain having to find unmolested machines to test for packages. you mean something like Module::CoreList? Thanks, Grant M. -- Grant M. NeonEdge...Web Pages by Design http://www.neonedge.com/ ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm -- ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] Anyone know of an alternative to perldoc.com?
Jesse Vincent wrote: you mean something like Module::CoreList? Yes, I mean Module::CoreList ;-). Thanks, that'll do it. Grant M. -- Grant M. NeonEdge...Web Pages by Design http://www.neonedge.com/ ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] GUI builders, support tools
Most long time Perl programmers will scoff at IDEs, but the lack of tools is part of the problem of Perl not being accepted by the corporate IT community. Of course it is also a catch-22. Without a critical mass of users, there isn't a financial incentive for companies to develop such tools. Whether open source plug-ins for Eclipse can bridge the gap, who knows. (Thanks to Duane Bronson for mentioning that there is a Perl plug-in for Eclipse. I had been wondering, and asked a few people, but wasn't aware that it existed.) Eclipse with the EPIC perl plugin is a real joy to write perl in. I was never one for IDEs, doing most of my coding in emacs and vi, but I would highly recommend checking Eclipse/EPIC out if you haven't already. One of the biggest issues for me with regard to IDEs was the lack of a cross-platform solution. I didn't want to have to switch my editor between home (linux) and work (win32). Eclipse is nice in that it's identical on both. Eclipse is also really, really nice for developing in java. Better than it is at perl. It also has nice revision control integration (at least with perforce, I haven't gotten the subversion integration working at home). Even if you've not been a fan of IDEs, I would encourage people to give Eclipse a week. andy ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] (also) Perl --appologizing
I'm sorry everyone. When I first brought up the question of certification I was really just looking for a way to communicate to people who don't know anything about Perl. I love Perl. I think it can and does do some wonderful things. When I heard the sad story of someone arguing with his manager about Perl it just sparked a feeling in me, reminding me of each time I had to explain why Perl is so good to someone who really should have already know about it. I figured if I emailed my buddies on the Boston.pm list we'd get somewhere. It pains me to see good things get hidden away. You all have always been so friendly, helpful, and full of love for Perl that I figured we might be able to do something. I'm sorry this ended up being such a sensitive subject. I'm still interested in helping to communicate Perl to the world, but I think all these discussions should move off the list, at least for now. Thanks. --Alex ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] (also) Perl --appologizing
Alex Brelsfoard said: I'm sorry everyone. Alex, you of all people have done nothing to apologize for. You wanted to find a way to make Perl more widely accepted. Had the conversation been allowed to takes its natural course, it might have petered out quickly or it might have come up with a novel idea. But instead, you got sucked into defending yourself. Had the conversation stayed on topic and not gone into political science, world history, and end-of-the-perl-world scenarios, the whole discussion would have been no big deal. I jumped in mainly because no one would let you even think about having a conversation about certification. And I eventually blew my stack on the list, and I apologize for the cursing and name calling that I put on the list. But you shouldn't apologize for a legitimate question just because of how people reacted to it. I'm still interested in helping to communicate Perl to the world, but I think all these discussions should move off the list, at least for now. Yeah, I think it's been beaten to the point where anyone who may have wanted to brainstorm is too exhausted to care right now. I know I am. ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] perl6/pugs
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:02:08 -0500, Adam Turoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, Feb 28, 2005 at 03:39:30PM -0500, Gyepi SAM wrote:
It must be: I am using LISP, after a long hiatus, and really liking it. I
simply did not appreciate its power upon introduction six years ago.
Yep. I never fully understood closures until I used them in Perl.
After that, Lisp and Scheme were no big deal. [Except for the
Y-Combinator, and ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)); those still
make my brain hurt].
The Y-Combinator made my brain hurt until I figured it out.
Heavy use of continuations still make my brain hurt, and I'm
favourable to the opinion that a continuation is like a goto,
only worse.
Here's an explanation of the Y-Combinator. It won't work in
Perl because Perl doesn't do lexical binding of input
parameters. JavaScript does and most should know that, so
I'll do it in JavaScript.
Our goal is to be able to write a recursive function of 1
variable using only functions of 1 variables and no
assignments, defining things by name, etc. (Why this is our
goal is another question, let's just take this as the
challenge that we're given.) Seems impossible, huh? As
an example, let's implement factorial.
Well step 1 is to say that we could do this easily if we
cheated a little. Using functions of 2 variables and
assignment we can at least avoid having to use
assignment to set up the recursion.
// Here's the function that we want to recurse.
X = function (recurse, n) {
if (0 == n)
return 1;
else
return n * recurse(recurse, n - 1);
};
// This will get X to recurse.
Y = function (builder, n) {
return builder(builder, n);
};
// Here it is in action.
Y(
X,
5
);
Now let's see if we can cheat less. Well firstly we're using
assignment, but we don't need to. We can just write X and
Y inline.
// No assignment this time.
function (builder, n) {
return builder(builder, n);
}(
function (recurse, n) {
if (0 == n)
return 1;
else
return n * recurse(recurse, n - 1);
},
5
);
But we're using functiions of 2 variables to get a function of 1
variable. Can we fix that? Well a smart guy by the name of
Haskell Curry has a neat trick, if you have good higher order
functions then you only need functions of 1 variable. The
proof is that you can get from functions of 2 (or more in the
general case) variables to 1 variable with a purely
mechanical text transformation like this:
// Original
F = function (i, j) {
...
};
F(i,j);
// Transformed
F = function (i) { return function (j) {
...
}};
F(i)(j);
where ... remains exactly the same. (This trick is called
currying after its inventor. The language Haskell is also
named for Haskell Curry. File that under useless trivial.)
Now just apply this transformation everywhere and we get
our final version.
// The dreaded Y-combinator in action!
function (builder) { return function (n) {
return builder(builder)(n);
}}(
function (recurse) { return function (n) {
if (0 == n)
return 1;
else
return n * recurse(recurse)(n - 1);
}})(
5
);
Feel free to try it. alert() that return, tie it to a button, whatever.
That code calculates factorials, recursively, without using
assignment, declarations, or functions of 2 variables. (But
trying to trace how it works is likely to make your head spin.
And handing it, without the derivation, just slightly reformatted
will result in code that is sure to baffle and confuse.)
You can replace the 4 lines that recursively define factorial with
any other recursive function that you want.
/me wonders how different the world would be if EvilLarry didn't let map
and filter^Wgrep slip into Perl...
I'm rather more thankful for closures. After all, being list-oriented,
I can define map/grep quite easily. But closures I need to be in
the language...
Cheers,
Ben
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Re: [Boston.pm] RPM building (was: Bottom Up)
On Tue, Mar 01, 2005 at 03:16:06PM -0500, Duane Bronson wrote: Is there a CPAN distribution just as there are Linux distributions? In other words, a collection of CPAN modules that one can install as a bundle rather than having to use the perl -MCPAN install module_that_wont_compile? ActiveState provides PPM which take a lot of pain out of CPAN since so much stuff just doesn't compile on Windows, but modules that don't compile are simply excluded from the PPM database. Also, some Linux distributions have packages that bundle a bunch of perl modules together, unfortunately, they only work with that Linux distro. I would prefer a standard distribution of modules for all platforms beyond the limited stuff that comes with the perl install. I don't know of any CPAN distributions. However, if you are on an RPM based system, you might try my ovid program http://search.cpan.org/~gyepi/Ovid-0.06/ovid which recursively converts CPAN modules into rpms by following dependencies. It makes a normally painful and tedious task very easy. It's rpm specific because that's what I usually use, but that needn't be. -Gyepi ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] perl6/pugs
--- Ben Tilly mumbled on 2005-03-01 14.56.51 -0800 --- Here's an explanation of the Y-Combinator. It won't work in Perl because Perl doesn't do lexical binding of input parameters. JavaScript does and most should know that, so I'll do it in JavaScript. Also see The Little JavaScripter: http://www.crockford.com/javascript/little.html -- Mike Burns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mike-burns.com ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] Bottom Up
Sean Quinlan said: OK. Please bear with me as I think while I type (brainstorm). How many under-employed Perl Mongers do we have in the Boston area who would be willing to semi-volunteer? Suggestions? Would anyone be interested in participating in this? I did three in-house training courses at my current job. It was basic perl for non-perl programmers. They were two-hour sesssions, once a week for 7 weeks. about 20 students per class. After that, I wrote Impatient Perl as an attempt to create a teach-yourself-perl-in-N-days book. It's about 130 pages long. Still an intro to perl, but takes the student/reader all teh way to object oriented programming and advanced regular expressions. It's licensed GNU-FDL, with the idea that while it might not be perfect, it should be a good place to start. I never broke the book into training sessions, so I'm not sure how long a course would be, but I wrote it as a text book of sorts, so it should break into a course fairly well. I could teach a course if it were in the evening or something. Not sure how I could work it into the 9-5 routine since I'm working full time. That's what I've got. Greg -- Hungry for a good read? Crave science fiction? Get a taste of Hunger Pangs by Greg London. http://www.greglondon.com/hunger/ ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Bundles, RPMs, Debs RE: [Boston.pm] RPM building (was: Bottom Up)
Is there a CPAN distribution just as there are Linux distributions? In other words, a collection of CPAN modules that one can install as a bundle rather than ] I don't know of any CPAN distributions. CPAN the library has a few bundles that are Bundles. CPANPLUS the Module will do the APT/RPM-like thing and install the pre-requisites for you. (There's a toolkit to produce Debian .Debs too, I mentioned it a week or two ago.) Bill ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] OT: O'Reilly
Hello Uri, I have a bookish request: does anybody have an editorial contact at O'Reilly I can exchange a few ideas with? I am cooking a proposal for them and I need a few tips here and there. BT I'd start with http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/author/intro.html. been there, done that. What I need is someone to talk to *before* I send them the proposal, hence my hope someone might have an editor's email. and contact manning.com as well. they are open to proposals too. if you can't find the contact i should have some info still. I will keep that in mind, but right now I think this is such a fit for ORA that I have a hard time thinking of going to another publisher. -F uri -- Uri Guttman -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.stemsystems.com --Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding- Search or Offer Perl Jobs http://jobs.perl.org ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] OT: O'Reilly
FL == Federico Lucifredi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BT I'd start with http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/author/intro.html. FL been there, done that. What I need is someone to talk to *before* FL I send them the proposal, hence my hope someone might have an FL editor's email. and contact manning.com as well. they are open to proposals too. if you can't find the contact i should have some info still. FL I will keep that in mind, but right now I think this is such a fit FL for ORA that I have a hard time thinking of going to another FL publisher. i think they don't like unsolicited book ideas as much these days. they probably get hundreds of them and most are useless. send it to me and i can give my take if it is worthy or not. and i can forward it to a some editors i know there. uri -- Uri Guttman -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.stemsystems.com --Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding- Search or Offer Perl Jobs http://jobs.perl.org ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] RPM building (was: Bottom Up)
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:01:13 -0500, Gyepi SAM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Mar 01, 2005 at 03:16:06PM -0500, Duane Bronson wrote: [...] I don't know of any CPAN distributions. However, if you are on an RPM based system, you might try my ovid program http://search.cpan.org/~gyepi/Ovid-0.06/ovid which recursively converts CPAN modules into rpms by following dependencies. It makes a normally painful and tedious task very easy. It's rpm specific because that's what I usually use, but that needn't be. The Debian equivalent is dh-make-perl. I haven't used it extensively, so I don't know how well it works. Cheers, Ben ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] OT: O'Reilly
On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 23:35:40 +, Federico Lucifredi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Uri, I have a bookish request: does anybody have an editorial contact at O'Reilly I can exchange a few ideas with? I am cooking a proposal for them and I need a few tips here and there. BT I'd start with http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/author/intro.html. been there, done that. What I need is someone to talk to *before* I send them the proposal, hence my hope someone might have an editor's email. How do you feel when you have a nice process in place through which people are supposed to contact you, and customers keep on persisting in trying to get direct numbers to inside contacts? I tend to get irritated by that, but YMMV. Maybe a random editor will be like me, maybe not. You could lurk on use.perl.org and figure out that it looks like chromatic and gnat work at O'Reilly. Then contact them and see if they're interested in helping you. You might irritate them, you might get good advice. I don't know. I'm going to guess that they'll tell you to start with http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/author/intro.html. When your proposal gets there, it doesn't have to be perfect. If they think that it has promise, they'll work with you on it. Note that when I say, it has promise, I mean that it fits into their idea of what they want their catalog to look like. A great idea for something that they have something pretty close to will lose to an average proposal for something that they feel is a hole in their offerings. and contact manning.com as well. they are open to proposals too. if you can't find the contact i should have some info still. I will keep that in mind, but right now I think this is such a fit for ORA that I have a hard time thinking of going to another publisher. ORA may or may not agree. As I noted, the quality of the idea is not the only factor in their decision. Cheers, Ben ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
Re: [Boston.pm] (also) Perl
On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:55:58 -0600 (CST), Alex Brelsfoard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My impression is that the language which is making the most inroads on traditional Perl areas is PHP. Is that because of the wonderful certifications that PHP has which Perl doesn't? Or is it because PHP is seen as easier to get started with than Perl? Also PHP has the huge advantage that hosting environments allow it to be used in a shared hosting environment, while mod_perl requires dedicated servers. (That is because PHP is less capable, so it is hard for one site to cause problems for other sites running in the same Apache process.) Are you telling me that this DOESN'T keep you up at nights? I know I'm exaggerating, but this is partly what gets me riled up: that simply because something is easier to get started with it's better. Hell the PHP documentation itself explains why it's easier to get started with: it gives su-root permissions on install. So you don't need to configure anything. Just sit down and play; no worries about not being able to do anything, because you basically have root. I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to take on that huge a security hole just to make the setup process easier. To me this just gives me more reason to fight harder to tell managers that Perl is the way to go. If everything that depressed me kept me up at nights, I'd never get any sleep. It sounds to me like you should read the classic essay, Worse is Better: http://www.dreamsongs.com/WIB.html No matter how much I may wish it otherwise, the world will be as it is regardless of what I can do. So I'll try to educate my corner and then survive as best I can. Suppose that we try this and it doesn't work. Does the argument then become that we need to get our certification backed by someone prominent because a certification that nobody has heard of is proving to be useless? We're just trying to find ways to communicate to managers that know nothing about Perl. This is just one idea. And I think well worht TRYING. If certification had no potential downsides, then I'd cheer you. But it has potential downsides that concern me, so I won't. Fortunately, unlike worse is better, what I'd like to have happen will happen naturally without any effort on my part. Also I have a different theory. My theory is that the non-savvy manager is going to ask someone he trusts for an opinion, who is either going to be someone whose competence has been proven (less likely), or is going to be someone else of about the same position and abilities (more likely). In neither case does the existence of a certification enter into the process. Well if he is about the same position and abilities then the certification program will be advertising to him/her as well. Here are some questions to ask yourself about this. - How much money do you wish to spend on advertising? - Where do you expect that money to come from? - Would that be a cost-effective use of that money? - Will the people whose money you're expecting to use agree? So now I need to take an endless stream of training from an approved source? Well, as was explained before. Certification is only PART of the hiring process. If you get one certificate and then spend years working with perl you obviously don't need another certificate. Your experience will trump your certificate at that point. I'm trying to see how this certificate does more than being able to put on your resume, I've taken these courses from trainer X. I've seen people say that on their resumes, and I paid attention. I did not necessarily recommend the hire, but you don't need a recognizable certificate to realize value from training. And remember to give the correct answer on a test even when I think it is wrong? (Quick: is our a good thing? Read http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=48379 before answering. Yet as cool feature of the day I'm sure that a certification would have required me to talk up how great it was.) Well, chalk that up to the proper design of the certification program. At this point we're past deciding whether or not to DO the certification. We're at the point of deciding how best to do the certification. If you're going to dream of a certification, why not dream of a perfectly adminstered one? My point is that existing certifications are notorious for having specific shortcomings. Unless you give me a good reason to believe that this would be different, I'm going to believe that your certification would be as bad as the rest. A certification that has very prominent and vocal opponents within the community is likely to have an uphill battle to acceptance. A certification that didn't have enough support for people to learn what they need to pass it is going to find that the hill is looking more like a cliff. I thought we were discussing this because we were already looking up said hill. And my
Re: [Boston.pm] Bottom Up
Greg London said: After that, I wrote Impatient Perl as an attempt to create a teach-yourself-perl-in-N-days book. It's about 130 pages long. Still an intro to perl, but takes the student/reader all teh way to object oriented programming and advanced regular expressions. It's licensed GNU-FDL, with the idea that while it might not be perfect, it should be a good place to start. I've been thinking that maybe this would be better served if I put it on a wiki or something that allowed people to add corrections and improvements. But I have no idea how a wiki works or how I would convert one large Open Office document into a wiki, and then how to convert it back to Open Office again. The point of that being to be able to upload the changes to Lulu and offer a book version of the document. Can a wiki keep track of changes, and undo some and keep others? Anyway, it was intended to be a one-stop-shopping for someone who wanted to learn perl from zero. i.e. this would get you up and running to the point that you understood all the basic concepts of perl. It doesn't go into web programming or anything like that, it's all generic perl that pretty much anyone could use. ___ Boston-pm mailing list Boston-pm@mail.pm.org http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/boston-pm
