Re: Constantine's cross may have been mushroom cloud from meteorimpact
Jan Coffey wrote: You can't beleive everything you read, but you also can't allways trust the experts when it comes to a topic like history. Especialy when so many of them disagree. I haven't read Cahill, but I have read Guns Germs and Steel and have heard much praise for it from those on this list that I trust for their scientific expertise. What are your criticisms? Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
this might be an interesting article
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23375-2003Jun23.html About shubco forcing schools to put fliers for Bible clubs in children's backpacks . But I cannot of course get to it... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Constantine's cross may have been mushroom cloud from meteorimpact
--- Damon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or that it was a medieval German that invented the printing press. The chinese invented the printing press. That german just copied it. = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Constantine's cross may have been mushroom cloud from meteorimpact
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan Coffey wrote: You can't beleive everything you read, but you also can't allways trust the experts when it comes to a topic like history. Especialy when so many of them disagree. I haven't read Cahill, but I have read Guns Germs and Steel and have heard much praise for it from those on this list that I trust for their scientific expertise. What are your criticisms? To tell you the truth I don't remember. I borrowed the book from Damon (a different but supprisingly simmilar one to the one on this list obviously) who urged me to read it. I made it through the first f chapter which if I remember is nothing more than a quick review of probable timelines for humans up to a point that has soem considerable cultural component we can decern. But by a couple of chapters latter it was so inundated with stuff that I dissagreed with in opinion, represented doctrin that I do not subscribe to, or thought were completely fabricated (not by dimond of course). I remember being struck by how he would use truisms or -assumption- to explain one thing or another without supporting the assumption. And I kept dissagreeing with the assumption If I am not mistaken some of it had to do with his assumptions about Native American culture, but maybe that was another of Damon's suggested readings. In any event I started building a graph to represent what he was saying and it got so deep with so many dependent nodes that I contradicted with that I put the book down and tried to forget the experience. That was two years ago, my effort seems to have paid off. The one thing I do remember from the long conversation Dammon and I had on the book was that I thought Diamond should stick to physiology, and me to Computer Science. = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
southern baptist convention to 'liberate gays from homosexuality'
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/Southwest/06/19/southern.baptists.ap/ The denomination made a special plea to its more than 42,000 churches to befriend gays and help liberate them from homosexuality. Gay rights groups said the initiative promoted hatred. ... The denomination acknowledged the severity of the global AIDS crisis and expressed support for President Bush's $15 billion initiative to fight AIDS overseas. Bush addressed the meeting in a videotaped message calling the 16 million Southern Baptists faithful servants and asking God to bless them. The denomination also came out against distributing condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. Abstinence education programs that emphasize a Biblical view of sexuality would be more effective, they said. --- Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its side. - Celsus (2nd century C.E.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
history of pal-isr conflict
http://www.jerrybowyer.com/index.php?newsid=156 Old topic now. Five transcripts on this page, in doc format. This seemed to sum up the region well for me. I don't think there were any contradictions to what others have said on-list, but fills in all the gaps. Kevin Tarr I can directly send a text version of each page to anyone that wants them. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Another ultrasound
We don't want any 2 of our kids named similarly. Also, I'd be happier if no two had the same first initial, and if none of them shared a first initial with either of their parents. (My sister and I had to go to middle initials in labelling things that were labelled with just initials, and I know one family where the father and all 3 sons have the same first, middle and last initials. Don't want to mess with *that* problem) Julia My dad, brother, sister, and I had same first initials. Me and my sister have the same middle initial too. Although hers was after our grandmother's maiden name. Don't know where my middle name came from. My brother and dad have the same first name, but dad flatly refused for his son to be his junior so they have different names. A cousin's family also had two boys and a girl, and the father and kids all had the same first initial. But none of my other cousins are grouped like that. When me and certain girlfriend talked about kids, as serious couples do, a boy would have the same name as my dad. Her father had the same names also, but first name was middle and so on. Kevin T. - VRWC Too long ago ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Catholicism Re: james ossuary a fake - scientists
In a message dated 6/25/2003 1:05:34 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ISHIRTA? Doug I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again, BBC radio programme, where John Cleese got his start performing, and Eric Idle was a writer. Is this the launch that faced a thousand ships? The mills are alive with the hunds of Munich. I've got a ferret sticking up my nose. ...etc. William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Big-Fish Stocks Fall 90 Percent Since 1950
At 22:35 2003-06-23 +0100, you wrote: On 23 Jun 2003 at 17:09, Jean-Louis Couturier wrote: National Geographic News February 26, 2002 The demand for fresh fish in homes and restaurants around the world is soaring at a time when well-established fisheries are becoming exhausted. To meet the demand, fishing boats are venturing into farther reaches of the ocean, guided by high-tech devices that include technologies originally developed for the Cold War. This is a growing concern of mine. In 1995, Spain and Canada had a dispute about fishing and both countries had warships in the area around the EEZ border. In times to come, this question will be partly resolved by force and Canada won't be a player unless its navy is renewed. Sorry, but there are so many cross-connections between the ecosystems now being deverstated and the deeper sea ecosystems, that by the time they get far out unless it's very soon there won't BE that much in terms of sustainable fish stocks out there. Andy Dawn Falcon Of course. What I should have added was that in at least two cases, the disputes involving Canada were caused by Canada trying to regulate fishing by imposing low quotas on itself and on others. The others tend not to appreciate. For Canada, or any other country for that matter, to impose its will on foreign fish fleets intent on depleting existing ressources without regard to their renewability, it must have will and the strength to do so. Right now, Canada has the will, but our navy is a joke. It was a joke during the Cold War, and it hasn't really changed since then. I should also add that when Canada has been on the receiving end of a conservation minded neighbor, it hasn't always been noble. Jean-Louis ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Catholicism Re: james ossuary a fake - scientists
Nick wrote: You (plural) don't believe that Jesus is fully human? Reggie Bautista wrote: To further muddy matters, some Catholics use the term Christian as short-hand for Fundamentalist Christian. I've only heard that from the other direction, as in I'm not Catholic, I'm Christian. and see it as an attempt by certain sects (mostly the born-again variety) to hijack the name Christian and suggest that Catholics don't believe in Jesus. Anyway, just a pet peeve when I really shouldn't spend any energy getting offended on behalf of devout Catholics. They can take care of themselves. -- Matt ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism (L3)
At 10:44 AM 6/24/03 -0700, Chad Cooper wrote: When I think of Christian values, I think of such things as honesty, charity, love for your fellow humans, not stealing, not murdering, not committing adultery (which by definition involves someone who is married to another and therefore damages that family, which may include innocent children), honoring your parents, etc., most of which I would also classify as civilized values (as in IAAMOAC), so when you say that you personally do not agree with most Christian values, I'm curious which particular values you don't agree with . . . The 10 Commandments have some good values, that fit within the boundaries you speak of (Civilized Values) but the commandments were not created by Jesus, but by Abraham (alright - he didn't, but he did bring them down from the mountain). Many Christian denominations identify Jesus = God or Jesus = Jehovah = the God of the OT, so they would say that Jesus is indeed the author of the Ten Commandments. Christians definitely do not hold the monopoly on these values you speak of. I can't think of a religion that does not hold those same values as their own. I didn't mean that the values I listed were either (1) unique to Christianity or (2) constituted a complete list of Christian values. Most Christians in general consider the values I listed and similar ones important indicators of whether a person is indeed a follower of Christ: most of them would say that a person who steals, commits adultery, is dishonest, etc., is not following Christ, regardless of whether their names are on the roll of a Christian denomination, they attend church on Sunday, or even holding a leadership position in their church. As someone has said, Going to church on Sunday doesn't make you a Christian any more than sleeping overnight in a garage makes you a Chevrolet. I will remind you of the 10 commandments before I give you the list of Christian values I don't like. ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.' TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.' THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.' FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.' FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.' SIX: 'You shall not murder.' SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.' EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.' NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.' TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.' While the 10 commandments were not a Christian construct, attempts were made to change the commandments to reflect the new Christian values. Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments (Matthew 22:36-40). As you can see, Christian values place God above all, then fellow man. Response #1: The first four commandments listed above are about honoring God, the last six are about one's relationship with other humans. Response #2: If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. (1 John 4:20-21) where AFAIK all Christians understand brother here to mean the same thing as neighbor in the story of the Good Samaritan: your fellow man. The individual, family, or Mankind is not mentioned. Neighbor implies local, vs. global. I am sure there are other places where Jesus refers to love your fellow man in the global context, which only illustrates the many convoluted interpretations of what it mean to be a Christian. With enough contradictions, logic suggests that being a good Christian near impossible. Only if you are asking the question in the form What is the minimum I have to do to be a 'good' Christian? and hoping that the answer will put a limit on who you should love. As I said above, AFAIK all Christians understand brother or neighbor in these contexts to mean any human being. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you,
Re: Constantine's cross may have been mushroom cloud from meteor impact
--- Damon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or that it was a medieval German that invented the printing press. The chinese invented the printing press. That german just copied it. IIRC the Chinese version used wooden blocks where the text was fixed. The German version used a pallete composed of individual blocks of letters. The Chinese may have developed something similar, but the European version was clearly superior. Yet another sign of cultural stagnation? Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. Now Building: Esci/Italeri's M60A1 Patton ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Catholicism Re: james ossuary a fake - scientists
From: Deborah Harrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] AFAIK, nearly all other Protestant denominations focus on Communion more as remembrance of me [Jesus], rather than any actual change or spiritual presence in the bread and wine (or, as in one church I attended with a friend, some type of watered-down Kool-Aid tasting liquid :P ). We always used grape juice at the Presbyterian Church I attended as a kid. My recollection is that it was more of a remembrance of me, as Debbi stated, than anything else. But I wasn't paying THAT much attention. I'm pretty sure it was also cut up Wonder Bread... - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Another ultrasound
From: Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED] We don't want any 2 of our kids named similarly. Also, I'd be happier if no two had the same first initial, and if none of them shared a first initial with either of their parents. (My sister and I had to go to middle initials in labelling things that were labelled with just initials, and I know one family where the father and all 3 sons have the same first, middle and last initials. Don't want to mess with *that* problem) My dad, brother, sister, and I had same first initials. Me and my sister have the same middle initial too. Although hers was after our grandmother's maiden name. Don't know where my middle name came from. My brother and dad have the same first name, but dad flatly refused for his son to be his junior so they have different names. We tried to use names (and variants therof) from our families for our kids. Our oldest, James Antonino, is named for his 2 grandfathers and a great- grandfather. Joseph Thomas is named for his great-grandfather named Thomas Joseph, and we also have several Thomases and Josephs in our families. Maria Helen is named for her 2 grandmothers and a great- grandmother. So James and Joseph have the same first initial, but it isn't really an issue, I don't think. We just made sure we didn't pick another J name for our third, so people wouldn't think we were on some sort of J bender. My wife had suggested naming one of the boys Bryon, but even changing the spelling to Brian left me uncomfortable (I would feel a bit arrogant naming my child after myself, even if he wasn't a junior). And while I'm here, I'll point out a funny website discussing bad baby names: http://www.notwithoutmyhandbag.com/babynames/ It's like the MST3K of baby-naming forums. _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Constantine's cross may have been mushroom cloud from meteorimpact
--- Jan Coffey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For a long time custer was considered by history to have been very brave and a good warior. As it turns out he wasn't. _ Jan William Coffey He wasn't? While he wasn't exactly brilliant in his final campaign, Custer's Civil War record is pretty impressive. You don't make Major General at 23 by accident. He did that after having _13_ horses shot out from under him. I would describe that as very brave under any circumstances. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Constantine's cross may have been mushroom cloud from meteorimpact
--- Jan Coffey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The chinese invented the printing press. That german just copied it. = _ Jan William Coffey The Chinese invented _movable type_, which is a very long way away from Gutenberg's printing press. Nor is there any evidence that Gutenberg copied it - so far as I am aware, there's no way he could even have known about the Chinese invention. He appears to have come up with the idea independently on his own. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: constatine's hot 'cross' buns
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] But where's Groo? Wandering around in those dark and twisty passages. Oh wait... that's grue. Sorry. - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism (L3)
Starting over, I first need to make a correction. I used the word Liturgy when I meant Parish. My bad. The responses have been great, and I could spend hours replying back, but I only want to say these few things. In its most base form, I believe that a Christian is defined strictly as one who believes that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, that he was crucified, and was resurrected. ANYTHING else is dogma, and subject to serious disagreement. My point overall, is that the term Christian Values can mean most anything. However, it is most commonly used as a tool to provide some evidence that because the values are associated with Christ, that that makes them the right values. Everyone who has responded to this thread has help me illustrate that the definition of Christian values encompass a wide range of values. This combined with the definition of what is a Christian, it cannot be precisely defined, and is, in fact, filled with many contradictions. However, in most every case I hear the term Christian Values it is in the context that only those who have Christian Values are decent people, and the rest of the population is contributing to the destruction of the world, in what ever form. Commonly it is used as a directed attack in accusing others of NOT having Christian values, implying one is bad or evil. This really pisses me off... This exercise has helped me understand that I have little to complain about Christian Values. In reality, I have a strong opposition to the way in which the term itself is used. I, by no means, want to imply that a belief in Christ is in anyway depreciating. Nearly all of my friends are Christians. If I have made anyone feel bad, I apologize. My anger is at those who use Christ as a blunt weapon, in an attempt to depreciate other beliefs, values and actions. Is this clear? Nerd from Hell ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scatological Re: Neanderthal Question Regarding ReligionandAtheism
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 09:12 AM 6/23/03 -0700, Nick Arnett wrote: Having recently had the displeasure of seeing the inside of my very own colon, I can tell you that it all seems to start out rather green. Which is why green *vomit* is considered a serious symptom, as it comes from the upper intestine rather than from the stomach and so may be indicative of an intestinal blockage, etc. Which is why green vomit is very high on the list of things you call the pediatrician about IMMEDIATELY if your child has it. Julia can't remember some of the others, but very high fever is also on the list ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fertility (was: Colour vision and pheromones)
--- The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip It is impossible for someone to become pregnant when they are having their period. snip grin We try not to use the word impossible in medicine, as sooner or later we are proven wrong (frex, while essentially 100% of a person's mitochondria come from the mother's side, at least one person has been documented in the literature to have mitochondria from his father). While it is rare to ovulate during the menses part of a woman's cycle, it can and does happen: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmedpubmedid=11082086 Abstinence on specific days of the menstrual cycle remains a method of family planning for many couples worldwide. Women should be aware that no calendar method is completely effective. Our data suggest there are few days in the menstrual cycle during which some women are not potentially capable of becoming pregnantincluding even the cycle day on which they may expect their next menses to begin. The 14 days from ovulation to menstruation occurred in only 10% of the subjects in this study (ages 25-35); while it is limited by number (N=221) and homogeneity of race (white), I think a larger study will only confirm this variability among women's cycles. Not incidently, some women will have a little blood with ovulation (the egg ruptures through the ovarian surface, and can cause pain (mitleschmirtz*) as well as some bleeding), and if she has an irregular cycle, she might interpret this as menses. Debbi Because We're Women And We're Unpredictable! Maru ;) *spelling? __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Neil deGrasse Tyson on Extrasolar Life
[Presented without comment from the sender.] [Image] Search for Life in the Universe I Date Monday, June 23 @ 00:01:13 Topic Extrasolar Life In this two-part essay, Director of the Hayden Planetarium, Neil deGrasse Tyson, reflects on the scientific and cultural implications of finding life elsewhere in the cosmos. [Image] The Search for Life in the Universe I Reflections on the scientific and cultural implications of finding life in the cosmos by: Neil deGrasse Tyson If the person on next to me on a long airplane flight ever finds out that I am an astrophysicist, nine times out of ten they ask, with wide eyes, about life in the universe. And only later do they ask me about the big bang and black holes. I know of no other discipline that triggers such a consistent and reliable reaction in public sentiment. This phenomenon is not limited to Americans. The time-honored question: What is our place in the universe might just be genetically encoded in our species. All known cultures across all of time have attempted to answer that question. Today we ask the same question, but with fewer words: Are we alone? [Image] Two species greeting each other, separated by epochs. Homo sapien and T. Rex Ordinarily, there is no riskier step that a scientist (or anyone) can take than to make sweeping generalizations from just one example. At the moment, life on Earth is the only known life in the universe, but there are compelling arguments to suggest we are not alone. Indeed, most astrophysicists accept a high probability of there being life elsewhere in the universe, if not on other planets or on moons within our own solar system. The numbers are, well, astronomical: If the count of planets in our solar system is not unusual, then there are more planets in the universe than the sum of all sounds and words ever uttered by every human who has ever lived. To declare that Earth must be the only planet in the cosmos with life would be inexcusably egocentric of us. Many generations of thinkers, both religious and scientific, have been led astray by anthropic assumptions, while others were simply led astray by ignorance. In the absence of dogma and data, history tells us that it's prudent to be guided by the notion that we are not special, which is generally known as the Copernican principle, named for the Polish astronomer Nicholas Copernicus who, in the mid 1500s, put the Sun back in the middle of our solar system where it belongs. In spite of a third century B.C. account of a sun-centered universe proposed by the Greek philosopher Aristarchus, the Earth-centered universe was by far the most popular view for most of the last 2000 years. Codified by the teachings of Aristotle and Ptolemy, and by the preachings of the Roman Catholic Church, people generally accepted Earth as the center of all motion. It was self-evident: the universe not only looked that way, but God surely made it so. The sixteenth century Italian monk Giordano Bruno suggested publicly that an infinite universe was filled with planets that harbor life. For these thoughts he was burned upside down and naked at the stake. Fortunately, today we live in somewhat more tolerant times. While there is no guarantee that the Copernican principle will guide us correctly for all scientific discoveries to come, it has humbled our egos with the realization that not only is Earth not in the center of the solar system, but the solar system is not in the center of the Milky Way galaxy, and the Milky Way galaxy is not in the center of the universe. And in case you are one of those people who thinks that the edge may be a special place, then we are not at the edge of anything either. [Image] Alien species, terrestrial biodiversity. Credit: NGS A wise contemporary posture would be to assume that life on Earth is not immune to the Copernican principle. If so, then how can the appearance or the chemistry of life on Earth provide clues to what life might be like elsewhere in the universe? I do not know whether biologists walk around every day awestruck by the diversity of life. I certainly do. On this single planet called Earth, there co-exist (among countless other life forms), algae, beetles, sponges, jellyfish, snakes, condors, and giant sequoias. Imagine these seven living organisms lined up next to each other in size-place. If you didn't know better, you would be hard-pressed to believe that they all came from the same universe, much less the same planet. Try describing a snake to somebody who has never seen one: You gotta believe me. There is this animal on Earth that 1) can stalk its prey with infrared detectors, 2) swallows whole live animals up to five times bigger than its head, 3) has no arms or legs or any other appendage, yet 4) can slide along level ground at a speed of two feet per second! [Image] Hourglass marking dawn since nebula, an exploded star peering back through time. Credit: Hubble Given
[Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism
--- Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip On the other hand... I have a tee shirt that has a picture of Stonehenge and says, Orthodox Druid on it. I like the shirt because it's a joke -- there is no such thing as orthodoxy among druids. Orthodox druid is as much an oxymoron as military intelligence or Microsoft Works. grin I gave a similar shirt to a friend: Stonehenge with rays of light coming through, Born-Again Pagan. He'd snapped off a letter to his homeowners assoc. when they told him he needed to remove all Christmas decorations from the house by Jan 12 (IIRC); it read along the lines of I cannot believe you are such religious bigots; we are druids, and we must garland our abode with greenery until the spring equinox...The deer represent perseverence through the dark days...I am truly sorry to live in such an intolerant world of misunderstanding... etc, etc. He got an apology letter back. ;} Of course now they have to leave up their evergreen swags until equinox every year... ;D While wearing this shirt, I've been approached by Fundamentalists who want to talk to me about their religious beliefs. None of them want to believe me when I tell them it's a joke, and they try to tell me that even joking about this can make me go to hell. When they ask if you're saved, try answering cheerfully, Damned if I'm not! :) Heretic Lutheran Deist Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Neil deGrasse Tyson on Extrasolar Life II
[Part II of Monday's article] [Image] Search for Life in the Universe II Date Wednesday, June 25 @ 00:05:28 Topic Extrasolar Life In this two-part essay, Director of the Hayden Planetarium, Neil deGrasse Tyson, reflects on the scientific and cultural implications of finding life elsewhere in the cosmos. [Image] The Search for Life in the Universe II Reflections on the scientific and cultural implications of finding life in the cosmos by: Neil deGrasse Tyson Search for Life in the Universe: Part I How about intelligence? Since there is still debate on how to define it and measure it in people, I wonder what the question even means when applied to extraterrestrials. Hollywood has tried, but I give them mixed reviews. I know of some aliens that should have been embarrassed at their stupidity. What about all those aliens that manage to traverse thousands of light years through interstellar space, yet bungle their arrival by crash-landing on Earth? [Image] V-ger, Spock investigates ancient probe Credit: Paramount Then there were the aliens in the 1977 film Close Encounters of the Third Kind, who, in advance of their arrival, beamed to Earth a mysterious sequence of repeated digits that were eventually decoded to be the latitude and longitude of their upcoming landing site. But Earth longitude has a completely arbitrary starting point -- the prime meridian -- which passes through Greenwich, England by international agreement. And both longitude and latitude are measured in peculiar unnatural units we call degrees, 360 of which are in a circle. Armed with this much knowledge of human culture, it seems to me that the aliens could have just learned English and beamed the message, We're going to land a little bit to the side of Devil's Tower National Monument in Wyoming. And since we're coming in a flying saucer we won't need the runway lights. The award for dumbest creature of all time must go to the alien from the original 1983 film Star Trek, The Motion Picture. V-ger, as it called itself (pronounced vee-jer) was an ancient mechanical space probe that was on a mission to explore and discover and report back its findings. The probe was rescued from the depths of space by a civilization of mechanical aliens and reconfigured so that it could actually accomplish this mission for the entire universe. Eventually, the probe did acquire all knowledge and, in so doing, achieved consciousness. The Star Trek crew come upon this now-sprawling monstrous collection of cosmic information at a time when the alien was searching for its original creator and the meaning of life. The stenciled letters on the side of the original probe revealed the characters V and ger. Shortly thereafter, Captain Kirk discovers that the probe was Voyager 6, which had been launched by humans on Earth in the late twentieth century. Apparently, the oya that fits between the V and the ger had been badly tarnished and was unreadable. Okay. But I have always wondered how V-ger could have acquired all knowledge of the universe and achieve consciousness yet not know that its real name was Voyager. [Image] Remarkable frozen texture on Jupiter's moon, Europa. Credit: NASA/JPL Regardless of how Hollywood aliens are portrayed, or how good or bad the films are, we must not stand in denial of the public's interest in the subject. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that humans are the only species in the history of life on Earth to evolve high-level intelligence. (I mean no disrespect to other big-brained mammals. While most of them cannot do astrophysics, my conclusions are not substantially altered if you wish to include them.) If life on Earth offers any measure of life elsewhere in the universe, then intelligence must be rare. By some estimates, there have been more than ten billion species in the history of life on Earth. It follows that among all extraterrestrial life forms we might expect no better than about one in ten billion to be as intelligent as we are, not to mention the odds against the intelligent life having an advanced technology and a desire to communicate through the vast distances of interstellar space. On the chance that such a civilization exists, radio waves would be the communication band of choice because of their ability to traverse the galaxy unimpeded by interstellar gas and dust clouds. But humans on Earth have only understood the electromagnetic spectrum for less than a century. More depressingly put, for most of human history, had aliens tried to send radio signals to earthlings we would have been incapable of receiving them. For all we know, the aliens have already done this and unwittingly concluded that there was no intelligent life on Earth. They would now be looking elsewhere. A more humbling possibility would be if aliens had become aware of the technologically proficient species that now inhabits Earth, yet they had drawn the same conclusion.
Re: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism
At 12:01 PM 6/25/03 -0700, Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip On the other hand... I have a tee shirt that has a picture of Stonehenge and says, Orthodox Druid on it. I like the shirt because it's a joke -- there is no such thing as orthodoxy among druids. Orthodox druid is as much an oxymoron as military intelligence or Microsoft Works. grin I gave a similar shirt to a friend: Stonehenge with rays of light coming through, Born-Again Pagan. He'd snapped off a letter to his homeowners assoc. when they told him he needed to remove all Christmas decorations from the house by Jan 12 (IIRC); it read along the lines of I cannot believe you are such religious bigots; we are druids, and we must garland our abode with greenery until the spring equinox...The deer represent perseverence through the dark days That's why the Christmas lights are still up around the edge of the roof. Though I'm not like the people who used to live across the street: one year they kept theirs burning until the last bulb finally burned out, sometime in May IIRC . . . ...I am truly sorry to live in such an intolerant world of misunderstanding... etc, etc. He got an apology letter back. ;} Of course now they have to leave up their evergreen swags until equinox every year... ;D Of course, that might cause a bit of a problem if the president of the homeowners association looked out one Sunday morning and saw the entire family dressed up and driving to the local Baptist church (or whatever). While wearing this shirt, I've been approached by Fundamentalists who want to talk to me about their religious beliefs. If I have the time (not necessarily a common occurrence), I'll say, Sure! However, as someone once said: People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them. None of them want to believe me when I tell them it's a joke, and they try to tell me that even joking about this can make me go to hell. From time to time I write some religious humor. Yesterday, while discussing a piece on-line with some fellow writers, I pointed out that if you count the circuitry for that purpose in the UPS, this computer is connected to the outside world through three levels of surge protection in series, therefore at least any power surges due to lightning should be well-isolated . . . When they ask if you're saved, try answering cheerfully, Damned if I'm not! :) Heretic Lutheran Deist Maru I think I've gotten some spam advertising a pill to treat that. -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RIAA to sue hundreds of Internet file sharers
http://www.salon.com/tech/wire/2003/06/25/filesharing/index.html Excerpt: RIAA to sue hundreds of Internet users sharing songs online - - - - - - - - - - - - By Ted Bridis June 25, 2003 Ê|Ê WASHINGTON (AP) -- The embattled music industry disclosed aggressive plans Wednesday for an unprecedented escalation in its fight against Internet piracy, threatening to sue hundreds of individual computer users who illegally share music files online. The Recording Industry Association of America, citing substantial sales declines, said it will begin Thursday to search Internet file-sharing networks to identify users who offer substantial collections of mp3 music files for downloading. It expects to file at least several hundred lawsuits seeking financial damages within eight to 10 weeks. Executives for the RIAA, the Washington-based lobbying group that represents major labels, would not say how many songs on a user's computer will qualify for a lawsuit. The new campaign comes just weeks after U.S. appeals court rulings requiring Internet providers to identify subscribers suspected of illegally sharing music and movie files. The RIAA's president, Carey Sherman, said tens of millions of Internet users of popular file-sharing software after Thursday will expose themselves to the real risk of having to face the music. It's stealing. It's both wrong and illegal, Sherman said. Alluding to the court decisions, Sherman said Internet users who believe they can hide behind an alias online were mistaken. You are not anonymous, Sherman said. We're going to begin taking names. Critics accused the RIAA of resorting to heavy-handed tactics likely to alienate millions of Internet file-sharers. _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: RIAA to sue hundreds of Internet file sharers
So lets do the math 10,000,000 thieving hippies downloading music 500 get sued. that means 1 in 20,000 will get sued. Real risk, my ass! I have a 1 in ~1800 chance of dying in an accident in the next year. I have much more to fear than getting sued by RIAA. Hey RIAA Here I am! Come get me! Nerd From Hell ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism
From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:27:26 -0500 At 12:01 PM 6/25/03 -0700, Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip On the other hand... I have a tee shirt that has a picture of Stonehenge and says, Orthodox Druid on it. I like the shirt because it's a joke -- there is no such thing as orthodoxy among druids. Orthodox druid is as much an oxymoron as military intelligence or Microsoft Works. grin I gave a similar shirt to a friend: Stonehenge with rays of light coming through, Born-Again Pagan. He'd snapped off a letter to his homeowners assoc. when they told him he needed to remove all Christmas decorations from the house by Jan 12 (IIRC); it read along the lines of I cannot believe you are such religious bigots; we are druids, and we must garland our abode with greenery until the spring equinox...The deer represent perseverence through the dark days That's why the Christmas lights are still up around the edge of the roof. Though I'm not like the people who used to live across the street: one year they kept theirs burning until the last bulb finally burned out, sometime in May IIRC . . . Wait, if one bulb goes out, they all go out, no? How'd they do that? Aren't those things linear circuits? ...I am truly sorry to live in such an intolerant world of misunderstanding... etc, etc. He got an apology letter back. ;} Of course now they have to leave up their evergreen swags until equinox every year... ;D Of course, that might cause a bit of a problem if the president of the homeowners association looked out one Sunday morning and saw the entire family dressed up and driving to the local Baptist church (or whatever). You're investigating the local religious folk and their strange rituals. :) (No offense to Baptists, of course.) I'd have a lot of fun with it: Mow the lawn wearing robes with runes all over them. Set up Stonehenge in the front yard and Mini-henge in the backyard. Welcome the Equinoxes with a public fertility ceremony (well, *throw* one at least... I doubt I'd convince my wife *that's* a good idea!). Celebrate each moon (Harvest moon, Honey Moon, etc.,) with a huge party and ritual. Harass my neighbors when they trim the trees in their yard. Sacrifice Goldy the Goldfish on a backyard funeral pyre when she went to the great fishbowl in the sky. See Lord of the Rings eleventy times. I expect you get the idea. :) snip None of them want to believe me when I tell them it's a joke, and they try to tell me that even joking about this can make me go to hell. From time to time I write some religious humor. Yesterday, while discussing a piece on-line with some fellow writers, I pointed out that if you count the circuitry for that purpose in the UPS, this computer is connected to the outside world through three levels of surge protection in series, therefore at least any power surges due to lightning should be well-isolated . . . Cute. :) Some bloopers show I saw last week ran a clip of a reporter in a field at night taping a weather report. Halfway through, while he was off camera there was a BIG flash and a horrific scream, then static. The weather guy had been struck by lightning. Apparently ok, thankfully, but the phrase 'Pride Goeth Before A Fall' did cross my mind. Jon _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: RIAA to sue hundreds of Internet file sharers
From: Chad Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Killer Bs Discussion' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: RIAA to sue hundreds of Internet file sharers Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 13:06:31 -0700 So lets do the math 10,000,000 thieving hippies downloading music 500 get sued. Knowing they won't ever be able to find out you downloaded The Matrix Reloaded from that guy in Bombay: Priceless. that means 1 in 20,000 will get sued. Real risk, my ass! I have a 1 in ~1800 chance of dying in an accident in the next year. I have much more to fear than getting sued by RIAA. Hey RIAA Here I am! Come get me! I make it a point never to taunt fate this way. *grin* Newsgroups are still safe tho. Jon _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Bad Communion Bread
I'll respond to Jan's message in pieces: Here eat this bread which has a high probablility of having an halusinogen in it and drink these firmented grapes which have alchohaul in it. No, but lets look at your evidence. I looked up ergot and found: http://www.killerplants.com/herbal-folklore/20010910.asp Ergot (Claviceps purpurea) is a fungus that attacks grasses, principally rye and wheat. It reproduces by replacing the grain with a hard, dark bundle of hyphae called a sclerotium. In rye, this sclerotium looks like a horn. (Ergot is from the French, argot, for spur in reference to this shape.) But this bundle of hyphae contains insidious toxins, alkaloids closely aligned to lysergic acid and LSD. The ergot alkaloids are vasoconstrictors; they restrict the flow of blood through the veins and arteries. If enough of the toxins are consumed, the blood no longer circulates...It was probably the herbalists in the monasteries that first noted the correlation between wet summers, darker rye bread, and the outbreaks of ergotism. There are a few things worth noting there: 1) The levening of the bread didn't make much difference. 2) Wet weather was correlated with the phenomenon. 3) It led to illness and death. So, it seems that the use of unleavened bread (which I don't remember being documented in scripture..except that the Last Supper was a Passover meal) for Communion does not seem to be particularly indiciative of this phenomenon. Further, since the Passover meal was a very long standing And, elsewhere we have: http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/wong/BOT135/LECT12.HTM The occurrence of Claviceps purpurea must have began with the cultivation of Secale cereale, Rye since it was far more common on that host than in other grains. Rye was a weed grain and occurred wherever wheat was cultivated. Often it became the dominant plant when wheat fields were abandoned. Thus, in a way, where ever civilization became established, Rye would follow it there. However, it was not cultivated for food until some time, in the early Middle Ages (around the 5th. Century), in what is now eastern Europe and western Russia. And finally, we have: http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/Jennifer1/explanations.html Ergot is extremely poisonous and is separated from grains when harvested. Eating or coming in contact with this fungi can result in extreme sickness, arms turning black and falling off or death. The chemicals found in this fungi can have a very mild hallucinogenic and sedating effect, but one would have to consume a large amount of the ergot to get enough of these chemicals in to their system for the effect. Therefor, being poisonous, would not be possible without dying first. Another argument is that a chemical process might happen when baking. This is also unlikely due to the fact that heat destroys ergot alkaloids and other chemical compounds. Chemically speaking, it is more likely that these people were werewolves rather than tripping on rye bread. This information is to enlighten and remind you that anything is possible in this world. So, putting together three sources, it seems to me that the ergot theory has a lot of holes in it. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism (L3)
--- Chad Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Starting over, I first need to make a correction. I used the word Liturgy when I meant Parish. My bad. The responses have been great, and I could spend hours replying back, but I only want to say these few things. In its most base form, I believe that a Christian is defined strictly as one who believes that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, that he was crucified, and was resurrected. ANYTHING else is dogma, and subject to serious disagreement. My point overall, is that the term Christian Values can mean most anything. However, it is most commonly used as a tool to provide some evidence that because the values are associated with Christ, that that makes them the right values. Everyone who has responded to this thread has help me illustrate that the definition of Christian values encompass a wide range of values. This combined with the definition of what is a Christian, it cannot be precisely defined, and is, in fact, filled with many contradictions. However, in most every case I hear the term Christian Values it is in the context that only those who have Christian Values are decent people, and the rest of the population is contributing to the destruction of the world, in what ever form. Commonly it is used as a directed attack in accusing others of NOT having Christian values, implying one is bad or evil. This really pisses me off... This exercise has helped me understand that I have little to complain about Christian Values. In reality, I have a strong opposition to the way in which the term itself is used. I, by no means, want to imply that a belief in Christ is in anyway depreciating. Nearly all of my friends are Christians. If I have made anyone feel bad, I apologize. My anger is at those who use Christ as a blunt weapon, in an attempt to depreciate other beliefs, values and actions. Is this clear? Wow you must hav egot !some! off list whoper. This was clear all along I thought. = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism (L3)
On Wednesday, June 25, 2003, at 07:07 pm, Chad Cooper wrote: In its most base form, I believe that a Christian is defined strictly as one who believes that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, that he was crucified, and was resurrected. ANYTHING else is dogma, and subject to serious disagreement. I have the distinct impression, although I haven't time to try and find a cite for it just now, that some (many?) English Anglican clergy *do not* believe that there was a resurrection. Or that any other miracles took place either. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible. - Bertrand Russell ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism (L3)
Chad wrote: My point overall, is that the term Christian Values can mean most anything. [snip] However, in most every case I hear the term Christian Values it is in the context that only those who have Christian Values are decent people, and the rest of the population is contributing to the destruction of the world, in what ever form. Commonly it is used as a directed attack in accusing others of NOT having Christian values, implying one is bad or evil. This really pisses me off... Me too. Anyone who talks about Christian values as a single, monolithic entity has fallen into the trap of stereotyping, even when that person is himself or herself a Christian. I'm sure I've fallen into that trap myself more than once, but I try really hard to avoid it. I, by no means, want to imply that a belief in Christ is in anyway depreciating. Nearly all of my friends are Christians. If I have made anyone feel bad, I apologize. My anger is at those who use Christ as a blunt weapon, in an attempt to depreciate other beliefs, values and actions. Is this clear? As a bell. Dictionary.com defines ecumenical this way: 1. Of worldwide scope or applicability; universal. a. Of or relating to the worldwide Christian church. b. Concerned with establishing or promoting unity among churches or religions. If you replace unity with understanding, then I would say that I very much try to be ecumenical in the sense of 1b above, and when I see anyone misunderstanding Christianity by assuming that a particular set of Christian values or beliefs is representative of all Christians, I try to explain to them that there is quite a bit of diversity within Christianity. I certainly wasn't angered or offended by your post, I just thought you were coming from the very position you are against, and I apologize for misunderstanding you that way. Reggie Bautista _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism
Doug wrote: Or a phenomenon that is beyond our understanding, but in fact has a logical explanation? Hypothetical situation: At some point in the future, God reveals him/her/itself in an unambiguous, empirically testable way. If that is going to eventually happen, then right now some religious phenomena would qualify as being beyond our current understanding but in fact would have logical explanations, no? Reggie Bautista _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism
--- Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Reggie Bautista wrote: lots of snippage On the other hand... I have a tee shirt that has a picture of Stonehenge and says, Orthodox Druid on it I gave a similar shirt to a friend He'd snapped off a letter to his homeowners assoc. when they told him he needed to remove all Christmas decorations- I cannot believe you are such religious bigots; we are druids, and we must garland our abode with greenery until the spring equinox...I am truly sorry to live in such an intolerant world of misunderstanding... etc, etc. He got an apology letter back. ;} Of course now they have to leave up their evergreen swags until equinox every year... ;D Of course, that might cause a bit of a problem if the president of the homeowners association looked out one Sunday morning and saw the entire family dressed up and driving to the local Baptist church (or whatever). They don't attend church. And he agreed to compromise on the deer. ;) I'd have a lot of fun with it: Mow the lawn wearing robes with runes all over them. Set up Stonehenge in the front yard and Mini-henge in the backyard. Welcome the Equinoxes with a public fertility ceremony (well, *throw* one at least... I doubt I'd convince my wife *that's* a good idea!). Celebrate each moon (Harvest moon, Honey Moon, etc.,) with a huge party and ritual. Harass my neighbors when they trim the trees in their yard. Sacrifice Goldy the Goldfish on a backyard funeral pyre when she went to the great fishbowl in the sky. See Lord of the Rings eleventy times. grin They do have Solstice Parties, and they own LofR on DVD; his wife (a fellow equestrienne, who in fact introduced me to Darby and the neighborhood 'horsey set') and I have organized Winter Solstice/Christmas rides (costumes, bells, singing and all!)...but no sacrifices. Does a rock-ringed lotus-pool count as your Mini-henge? ;) People Do Enjoy The Sleighbells Trotting By Maru :) __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism
In a message dated 6/25/2003 2:47:17 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: grin They do have Solstice Parties, and they own LofR on DVD; his wife (a fellow equestrienne, who in fact introduced me to Darby and the neighborhood 'horsey set') and I have organized Winter Solstice/Christmas rides (costumes, bells, singing and all!)...but no sacrifices. Does a rock-ringed lotus-pool count as your Mini-henge? ;) People Do Enjoy The Sleighbells Trotting By Maru :) You can always rent Wicker Man William Taylor Oh for the right thin walls... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Steeds (was: Constantine's cross may have been mushroom cloudfrom meteor)
--- Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip ...Custer's Civil War record is pretty impressive. You don't make Major General at 23 by accident. He did that after having _13_ horses shot out from under him. I would describe that as very brave under any circumstances. smart-donkey remark in Mr. Ed's voice Brave my haunches! It was those chargers who ran into the hail of bullets! If a horse had 13 men shot dead off his back, he'd be called a jinx! ;) serious While there are numerous accounts of horses' devotion to their riders, and vice versa, on the battlefield, I am grateful that 'cavalry' is now mechanized... Debbi Yet Planes And Tanks And Even Jeeps Are Named By Their Human Operators Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism
On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 04:11:41PM -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote: Wait, if one bulb goes out, they all go out, no? How'd they do that? Aren't those things linear circuits? You mean wired in series. The cheapest ones are, and all of the older ones I've seen. But in the past 5-10 years I've noticed places selling strings wired in parallel. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism
From: Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:46:25 -0700 (PDT) --- Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Reggie Bautista wrote: lots of snippage I'd have a lot of fun with it: Mow the lawn wearing robes with runes all over them. Set up Stonehenge in the front yard and Mini-henge in the backyard. Welcome the Equinoxes with a public fertility ceremony (well, *throw* one at least... I doubt I'd convince my wife *that's* a good idea!). Celebrate each moon (Harvest moon, Honey Moon, etc.,) with a huge party and ritual. Harass my neighbors when they trim the trees in their yard. Sacrifice Goldy the Goldfish on a backyard funeral pyre when she went to the great fishbowl in the sky. See Lord of the Rings eleventy times. grin They do have Solstice Parties, and they own LofR on DVD; There ya go! his wife (a fellow equestrienne, who in fact introduced me to Darby and the neighborhood 'horsey set') and I have organized Winter Solstice/Christmas rides (costumes, bells, singing and all!)...but no sacrifices. Does a rock-ringed lotus-pool count as your Mini-henge? ;) Well... it depends on if the stones are standing upright or not, I guess. :) Jon _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:19:24 -0400 On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 04:11:41PM -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote: Wait, if one bulb goes out, they all go out, no? How'd they do that? Aren't those things linear circuits? You mean wired in series. Yes. Exactly. For the life of me I couldn't remember the term, although I *could* see the circuit diagram in my minds eye. The cheapest ones are, and all of the older ones I've seen. But in the past 5-10 years I've noticed places selling strings wired in parallel. About time they did that! :) Jon _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Constantine's cross may have been mushroom cloud frommeteorimpact
Russell wrote: I think it's safe to say that Middle Ages were stagnant IN SOME WAYS, if we compare them to any other period of recorded history. It's not like the period 900-1000 compares to 1900-2000. Isn't that where the term Renaissance comes from? That's not exactly what I was taught. According to dictionary.com, near the bottom of the page on renaissance that comes up when you search there, in the section credited as being from Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc., renaissance is: A new birth, or revival. Specifically: (a) The transitional movement in Europe, marked by the revival of classical learning and art in Italy in the 15th century, ... I was taught the Renaissance was a period of time in which the ideas of the ancient Greeks were revived in Italy and and throughout Europe. Now here's the part where I'm relying on hazy memory from a high school class more years ago than I care to mention... I don't know if this is in any way a mainstream idea, but I was taught that the renaissance was in part an outgrowth of Christian Aristoteleanism, which was developed by St. Thomas Aquinas. A quick web search brings up: http://www.philosophypages.com/hy/3n.htm For Aquinas, theology is a science in which careful application of reason will yield the demonstrative certainty of theoretical knowledge. Of course it is possible to accept religious teachings from revealed sources by faith alone, and Aquinas granted that this always remains the most widely accessible route to Christian orthodoxy. But for those whose capacity to reason is well-developed, it is always better to establish the most fundamental principles on the use of reason. Even though simple faith is enough to satisfy most people, for example, Aquinas believed it possible, appropriate, and desirable to demonstrate the existence of god by rational means. Bringing the concept of careful application of reason into the medieval church by way of basically translating the concepts of the ancient Greeks into Christian terms helped set the stage for the renaissance, and much of the rest of the renaissance followed the pattern of taking the lead of the ancient Greeks, at least according to that one particular high-school teacher of mine. Again I don't know whether this idea is mainstream or not. However, there is a very good example of this rennaisance borrowing from the ancient Greeks, and that is the birth of opera. There was a group of scholars in Florence in the middle to late 1500's (working from memory here...) called the Camerata, who met to discuss the writings of the ancient Greeks. (Side note -- one member of the Camerata was Vincenzo Galilei, a composer of music and father of Galileo Galilei.) This group made an attempt to recreate authentic ancient Greek drama, which as they understood it was a combination of theater, music, and poetry, and the result was the first few operas. For a somewhat more detailed version of how this came about, see: http://www.ptloma.edu/music/MUH/genres/opera/birthofopera.htm or http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1B525E05 and http://www.pbs.org/wnet/threetenors/history.html or http://makeashorterlink.com/?V2E521E05 Excerpt from the latter link: [Opera] was born in the twilight of an age that set out to capture the cultural sensibilities of ancient Greece, one of the most glorious hours of humankind. With Greek ideals bursting forth in sculpture, painting, philosophy, and ethics, it was natural that music would be affected. Yet, ironically, those men who invented opera were not interested in recreating Greek music as such, but in recapturing the tragic drama of classical antiquity. This, they failed to do. Instead, unwittingly, they accomplished a great deal more: they created a musical form that has continued to fascinate the world for more than 400 years. Reggie Bautista _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Steeds (was: Constantine's cross may have been mushroom cloudfrom meteor)
On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 03:02:50PM -0700, Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...Custer's Civil War record is pretty impressive. You don't make Major General at 23 by accident. He did that after having _13_ horses shot out from under him. I would describe that as very brave under any circumstances. smart-donkey remark in Mr. Ed's voice Brave my haunches! It was those chargers who ran into the hail of bullets! If a horse had 13 men shot dead off his back, he'd be called a jinx! ;) If you're in the cavalry, wouldn't shooting your horse (when no one is looking) be the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot to get out of battle? Except in this case, it makes you look brave! (not saying that is what happened, it just occurred to me as a possible explanation from the sketchy data mentioned) -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Why J. Michael, not Joe M.
For those interesting in both Babylon 5 and in math (or in this case, pretty funny numerology), or if you've always wondered why the creator of Babylon 5 goes by Joe Straczynski on the internet and in personal communications, but uses the name J. Michael Straczynski when working as a published author and producer, check out this link to a recent posting on the Rec.arts.scifi.tv.b5.moderated newsgroup: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22why+is+it+j.+michael+straczynski%22hl=enlr=ie=UTF-8selm=1a%25Ja.3466%24nG4.2416%40newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.netrnum=1 or http://makeashorterlink.com/?P3A612E05 Reggie Bautista _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fertility (was: Colour vision and pheromones)
Not incidently, some women will have a little blood with ovulation (the egg ruptures through the ovarian surface, and can cause pain (mitleschmirtz*) as well as some bleeding), and if she has an irregular cycle, she might interpret this as menses. Debbi Because We're Women And We're Unpredictable! Maru ;) *spelling? Google as a spellchecker; here's what I got in response to the query: Did you mean: mittelschmerz Your search - mitleschmirtz - did not match any documents. No pages were found containing mitleschmirtz. (German. mittel = middle, schmerz = pain. (As in 'Weltschmerz' = Sadness over the evils of the world, especially as an expression of romantic pessimism.)) ---David ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Brin-L Chat Reminder
This is just a quick reminder that the Wednesday Brin-L chat is scheduled for 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time, so it started about 2 hours ago. There will probably be somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. See my instruction page for help getting there: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: this might be an interesting article
--- The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23375-2003Jun23.html ...An integral part of CEFs evangelical mission is to locate children who have not yet accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior, the school districts attorneys wrote. Requiring teachers to force students to accept and distribute CEFs materials would result in the unconstitutional coercion of the students to proselytize on CEFs behalf. The Bush administration brief, submitted by assistant attorney general Ralph F. Boyd Jr. and three staff attorneys, said in part: CEF offers students educational, cultural, and recreational opportunities that are similar to activities offered by other community organizations that submit fliers for inclusion in the [students] take-home folders. Through its Good News Clubs, CEF strives to foster self-esteem in youth and to instill morals and character in children while providing a positive recreational experience. . . . That CEF does these things from a religious viewpoint does not change the fact that its activities meet the [school] boards criteria for inclusion in the take-home folders. The Child Evangelism Fellowship has led a national movement for the rights of religiously oriented taxpayers and their children to use public school property in the same way that other nonprofit groups do. Attorneys for the group, based in Warrenton, Mo., said their fliers are no different than the notices sent home in Montgomery County backpacks by the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts and the Young Mens Christian Association (YMCA)... Question: What would a Southern Baptist have to say if his/her child came home from school with a flier inviting the child to 'Join the fellowship of Allah: follow the adventures of Ahmed and Fatima as they learn to apply the lessons of the Koran to everyday life and its problems! Sign up for Bellydancing and Sworddancing Classes' etc. I can hear the righteous screaming now. I'd object to *any* religious organization attempting to convert my child from whatever I saw fit to teach them WRT the Divine And spirituality. While the Boy and Girl Scouts do mention God (or at least they used to), I don't recall Jesus being mentioned specifically. And I think while the Ys have religious literature available (and probably classes too), there is no requirement to use/attend in order to participate in the sports etc. I actually have no objection to a religious group using a public school after-hours, if all religious groups are allowed to do so. OK, maybe not the FreeLove Fishers of Men... ;) Debbi Did They Leave Out The Bluebirds Because Of The Faux Native American* Song? Maru (*no offense intended; I still remember the song from my Bluebird days) __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fertility (was: Colour vision and pheromones)
--- David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [I wrote] Not incidently, some women will have a little blood with ovulation (the egg ruptures through the ovarian surface, and can cause pain (mitleschmirtz*) as well as some bleeding), and if she has an irregular cycle, she might interpret this as menses. Debbi Because We're Women And We're Unpredictable! Maru ;) *spelling? Google as a spellchecker; here's what I got in response to the query: Did you mean: mittelschmerz Yes. http://www.emedicine.com/aaem/topic310.htm Mittelschmerz (pronounced MITT-ul-schmurz) is a German word that means middle pain. The pain occurs during ovulation. Pain appears on one side of the lower abdomen midway between menstrual periods. The location is determined by which ovary has produced the ovum that month. It can show up on one side of the abdomen one month and switch to the opposite side during the following cycle. Among women, 20% experience mittelschmerz. Most of the time it is a mild annoyance. In rare instances, it can be debilitating Debbi who can be lazy as well as unpredictable ;) __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bad Communion Bread
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll respond to Jan's message in pieces: Here eat this bread which has a high probablility of having an halusinogen in it and drink these firmented grapes which have alchohaul in it. No, but lets look at your evidence. I looked up ergot and found: http://www.killerplants.com/herbal-folklore/20010910.asp There are a few things worth noting there: 1) The levening of the bread didn't make much difference. Nothing mentioned on levening in the article where did you get this? 2) Wet weather was correlated with the phenomenon. At the time of the article which is not really on the subject so what? 3) It led to illness and death. I'm not going to go running around looking for supporting text for something that I have learned through docs and in class. But it is my understanding that: 1) Yest was used to cancle the effect of the argot. sickness of otherwise. 2) Unleven bread has been used in other spiritual practices as an halucinogen, specificaly without sickness and death. Rye was a weed grain and occurred wherever wheat was cultivated. Often it became the dominant plant when wheat fields were abandoned. Thus, in a way, where ever civilization became established, Rye would follow it there. However, it was not cultivated for food until some time, in the early Middle Ages (around the 5th. Century), in what is now eastern Europe and western Russia. And the harvesting practices of 2000 years ago was so good that the rye was specificaly removed from the wheat? http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/Jennifer1/explanations.html Ergot is extremely poisonous and is separated from grains when harvested. Eating or coming in contact with this fungi can result in extreme sickness, arms turning black and falling off or death. The chemicals found in this fungi can have a very mild hallucinogenic and sedating effect, but one would have to consume a large amount of the ergot to get enough of these chemicals in to their system for the effect. Therefor, being poisonous, would not be possible without dying first. Another argument is that a chemical process might happen when baking. This is also unlikely due to the fact that heat destroys ergot alkaloids and other chemical compounds. Chemically speaking, it is more likely that these people were werewolves rather than tripping on rye bread. This information is to enlighten and remind you that anything is possible in this world. Mild halusinogen is all that is required I was not saying that they were tripping to the extent of 1960 drugies. Just that they would have a hightened sense of spirituality. Further more the sicknesses you reference are from ~continued~ use in large quatities. And that is not what we are talking about. Even further their are plenty of references to wormwood and burning bush which can be traslated as wormwood, and history of munks who use wormwood. Wormwood is also very poisinous (as is most natural halucinogens) and yet people take them in small quantities and survive. Besides, most of the miricles that are claimed in the bible and many of the actions and states of mind that these people seem to be in, can be very easily explained as halucinations. So, putting together three sources, it seems to me that the ergot theory has a lot of holes in it. ha ha. But to adress the statment You have skilfully found text you can twist to support your opinoin. If I were more skilled at that practice (and I was willing to sspend that effor and time on it) then I could probably find supporting ~text~ as well. I personaly do not put a lot of credibility in such things. Supporing text and doctored statistics can always be found to support whatever you like. Experts disagree enough on such topics that twisting it your way is allways possible. I do not engage, or put much credence in such a practice. It probably has something to do with the way I process text, but it is also experience. Just becouse someone wrote it down doesn't make it so. Those who equate phenome recal with knowldege and textual processing with the aquisition of knowledge may disagree, but these people tend to think linerly and find non-linear thinking dificult. I could easily claim that such text based linear knowlege: is nothign but nonsens, and I often do when it is warented. The Warewolf buisness is one such case. That said there is a certain level of understanding which one can aquire from text. But this requires supporting study, not just statment. Non of the references you make speak to the specifics of argot or discuss studies performed with the substance. None of them say anything about the effect of yeast on the argot itslef. None of them discuss what mild effect it might have or what they mean by ~mild~. Also this was a suggestion, a more simple explination than what most christian organizations believe. It is not my duty to support a more simple explination by searchig the web for some specific
Re: Steeds (was: Constantine's cross may have been mushroomcloud from meteor)
At 06:30 PM 6/25/2003 -0400, you wrote: On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 03:02:50PM -0700, Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...Custer's Civil War record is pretty impressive. You don't make Major General at 23 by accident. He did that after having _13_ horses shot out from under him. I would describe that as very brave under any circumstances. smart-donkey remark in Mr. Ed's voice Brave my haunches! It was those chargers who ran into the hail of bullets! If a horse had 13 men shot dead off his back, he'd be called a jinx! ;) If you're in the cavalry, wouldn't shooting your horse (when no one is looking) be the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot to get out of battle? Except in this case, it makes you look brave! (not saying that is what happened, it just occurred to me as a possible explanation from the sketchy data mentioned) Erik Reuter I know you aren't joking but I just can't see that ever happening. I don't think cowards go for the cavalry. It wasn't even a conscripted army back then. (err, was it?) What circumstances could it happen in? You'd be on patrol, by yourself, be far enough away from the camp that they wouldn't hear the gunshot, then you'd walk back to camp and say They killed my horse! But I got away. If the patrol had more people, it'd be tough to fake a gunshot, to say it came from farther away. And the people you were with, you'd hope, would go charging towards your position and you'd have to say They shot from over there! and the rest ride out and find...nothing. It'd be worse in a battle. You are going against some force, large or small, and your going to shoot the one thing that makes you a moving target? Yes a larger moving target, but still. So how did foot soldiers get away with shooting themselves in the foot? You'd have to be alone, in an area with hostiles, and be reasonably sure that you can get away with it and get to a medic. I would bet there were soldiers who shot themselves, not to kill but for an injury, and died. Ahh what's it matter? Kevin T. - VRWC Not saying I'm anything near an expert. I've never been in a war, but I've been hunting with plenty of bullets being fired. You can hear them a long way off. You can usually tell the direction. And you can hear the difference in how the round traveled, if it hit anything. Putting your foot on the ground and shooting down at it would sound a lot different than laying on the ground, holding your leg up, and shooting your foot. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Brights
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 12:59:29 -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote: http://www.the-brights.net/ Thought it was appropriate to post this since we've been hitting so many spiritual/scientific worldview topics lately. They're trying to introduce a new meme: Or a new religion :) Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: constatine's hot 'cross' buns
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:50:55 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All of these comic book movies. But where's Groo? Off looking for a fray? or cheesedip? No fight choreographer in the world could do Groo justice :) Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fertility (was: Colour vision and pheromones)
David Hobby wrote: (German. mittel = middle, schmerz = pain. Ha. which makes James Bond's SMERSH a really cool acronym for the organisation... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism (L3)
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: I've been quoting from the KJV primarily for the same reason that Julia mentioned: because it's the one that's easiest for me to copy and paste from, and because it is the version that most people are most familiar with. Between dead-tree copies, CD-ROMs, and web sites I have bookmarked, I probably have at least two or three dozen different versions of the Bible I can refer to, though. I know that some denominations use one version in preference to the others, and/or publish their own particular versions as authorized. Others don't seem to care. The KJV is also in the public domain, which many other translations are not. So it's a lot easier to just throw up a copy of the KJV on a website, or burn it on a CD-ROM, if you're just looking for an electronically formatted copy of the Bible, not caring what translation it is. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Steeds (was: Constantine's cross may have been mushroom cloudfrom meteor)
--- Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While there are numerous accounts of horses' devotion to their riders, and vice versa, on the battlefield, I am grateful that 'cavalry' is now mechanized... Debbi They are - but American cavalrymen still wear spurs on their boots. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Another ultrasound
Steve Sloan II wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: Also, I'd be happier if no two had the same first initial, and if none of them shared a first initial with either of their parents. (My sister and I had to go to middle initials in labelling things that were labelled with just initials, and I know one family where the father and all 3 sons have the same first, middle and last initials. Don't want to mess with *that* problem) From personal experience, a father and son with the exact same first, middle, and last names isn't too fun either. ;-) The only time I've seen it be really advantageous was when the father (with the mother) moved out of the house and the son assumed various bills. He switched them over to himself eventually, but in the meantime, there wasn't any problem if someone called asking for the person paying the bills I dated a guy who was named after his father, and it got rather confusing. To top it all off, his *mother* was named Julia Ended up marrying someone else, a second son, and *his* father had taken care of the passing of the family name on the first one (the father is a III and the son is a IV), so it wasn't *quite* as confusing, but I seethe sometimes when I have to add parenthetical stuff on Christmas tags to make sure that one of them doesn't end up with the other's present (which happened one year). Then again, when you're the third, naming someone the fourth may be more important to you or something. But the only third I know who's close to my age had no intention of naming a kid the fourth. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism
Jon Gabriel wrote: From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Humor] RE: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:19:24 -0400 On Wed, Jun 25, 2003 at 04:11:41PM -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote: Wait, if one bulb goes out, they all go out, no? How'd they do that? Aren't those things linear circuits? You mean wired in series. Yes. Exactly. For the life of me I couldn't remember the term, although I *could* see the circuit diagram in my minds eye. The cheapest ones are, and all of the older ones I've seen. But in the past 5-10 years I've noticed places selling strings wired in parallel. About time they did that! :) All of the ones we've owned since we got married (and we got some in 1991) were wired in parallel. But if you pull a bulb *out*, all of them go off. Which can make decorating the tree with Star Trek starships that plug into the light string interesting (Gee, I hope I put bulbs back everywhere that one of those ornaments was this time. One year I forgot, and was really annoyed at myself the next year.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: this might be an interesting article
Russell Chapman wrote: Which kinda covers anything from Norse and Greek Gods through to Satan worship, but if you're a pagan or athiest, you just skip over that bit. The point is that the central aim of Scouts and similar community based groups is nothing to do with religion, and there is no promotion of religion. (Although, for a merit badge in Venturers (15-18yr old) we studied all the different religions we could find - attending a mass, happy-clappers, a synagogue, a mosque etc etc) Happy Clappers? Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question Regarding Religion and Atheism
Reggie Bautista wrote: Doug wrote: Or a phenomenon that is beyond our understanding, but in fact has a logical explanation? Hypothetical situation: At some point in the future, God reveals him/her/itself in an unambiguous, empirically testable way. If that is going to eventually happen, then right now some religious phenomena would qualify as being beyond our current understanding but in fact would have logical explanations, no? What phenomenon and what makes it religious? Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
