RE: March for Women's Lives
Julia, trying to prove that the exceptions justify the rule: Actually, if you've got infant twins they have an older sibling who's still pretty young, or if you have triplets or more, you could really use the help for the first year or so. Hire someone or see how much family and friends are willing to do to help. (I know one woman with quadruplets; her sister is practically living there to help out with the kids. And she had them before her first child's second birthday, so that's a lot of kids in a very short period of time.) Ok, you win, Julia. If someone has quadruplets, that's pretty hard. What percentage of incompetent mothers have quadruplets? Hell, we probably should give massive overdoses of fertility drugs to all women, because if we made them all have quadruplets, even the incompetent ones would raise the level of their game just to survive. You can quote all the weird statistical anomolies you want, but that doesn't change the fact that most women don't even have twins much less quadruplets, and most mothers are whining incompetents with one child at a time. (And if you're working and you have twins or more, it's more cost-effective to hire a nanny than to put them all in daycare, at least for the first couple of years.) What great advice, you pampered princess! p.s. I'm wondering how many kids Mike Lee has, because it gets more interesting the more you have First, it only gets more interesting till about 3. Then the costs are marginal. Second, it's none of your damn business. I'm not basing my arguments on my own experience, but rather on my observation of the general incompetence of women to raise children (or do any other useful work). Third, well, I can't do a third, because I'd have to claim that not only is logic on my side but also experience. And I just don't want to do that. You're idiots. I can prove it. That settles it. Mike Lee Easter Bunny ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Winning the War on Terror
Gary Denton, Islamist traitor had this to say: Flattening it as you suggest would have cost us more support and universal condemnation. Or is that what you want? Since you keep proposing solutions that would increase hatred for America maybe you are on their side. No, Gary, you cute little girl, I'm saying, you're going to get all your Muslim friends killed you dumbass. I'm trying to save their lives. It doesn't matter who hates America. It matters who America hates. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Ronn insults my offspring: I sincerely \*hope*\ that the answer is zero, and also that he is single, otherwise I feel very sorry for some poor unfortunate woman and some innocent children . . . Ronn is very sorry. Feeling very sorry makes him feel very sorry. That gives Ronn a warm fuzzy. And, probably, a Happy Ending. Ick, Ronn, ick! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
Julia, expressing her contempt for women who work instead of breed for a living: been eaten alive by undergrads in 3 minutes flat. :P If you can't handle a relatively simple phone system when you're being sent out by a temp agency to be a receptionist, there's very little hope for you in the short run. If you can't corral your toddlers, you'll likely fail as a receptionist like you've failed as a mother. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Julia, the voice of bloody reason: It occurred to me that perhaps the thing to do is to identify all the people who participated in the torture-for-amusement, and turn them over to the Iraqi people. Some sort of justice (or at least poetic justice) would be served, and it would be a hell of a deterrent against anyone else doing anything remotely like it for a good, long time. You sound like one of the Iraqi people. The more bloody-minded, primitive honor-killing sort. You want to lob a rock at Lynndie from West Virginnie? Cast the first stone or shut up. I've been told you're the heart of the list, a really sweet girl, and beyond criticism. In this post you engaged in a bloody hate fantasy. I'm in no mood right now to say something funny or provocative. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Guatam, justifiably pissed: That aside, I have to say that I find myself virtually incapable of thinking about this rationally. I am _quivering_ with rage about this. This is personal to me. I volunteered to go there almost a year ago. _Two weeks ago_ they called me to say that my security clearance was being processed and that a final offer might be imminent. Just by _volunteering_ I probably did permanent damage to my career at McKinsey, which was not a small thing to give up. These fucking idiots have permanently stained the effort of every one of my friends over there, of every _person_ working there in both the army and the civilian service. If the army decided to shoot them in the main street of _Baghdad_ I wouldn't be upset. I had a conversation with a friend of mine tonight who wanted all them executed too. I was the voice of reason about this (surprise! Surprise! Sergeant Carter!). The effect of what these young idiots did is huge. If it were just about them, I wouldn't punish them too harshly. They're already shocked and awed enough that they won't do crap like this again. But too bad for their lives. They should go to jail. We should use them to get the point through to their peers not to act like this. They read the rules, and we seldom enforce them this harshly, and they really probably don't deserve it, but too bad. Even if the rot went all the way up the chain of command, and I wouldn't be surprised if it did, they were dumb enough to get caught, and can be an object lesson. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Guatam, with spot-on analysis, as usual, until he loses it with a single word: would be too stupid for words). Some high-value prisoners were probably being aggressively interrogated. That ethos spread through much of the prison. The particular guards involved with this were a bunch of fuck-ups. They picked up that ethos, had no adult supervision (because, at least in part and from my experience with them, American officers tend to have a blind spot about things like this, in part because of their excellent historical record and in part because they're used to dealing with highly competent regulars, not idiots like these clowns, and those regulars would - I'm guessing - never do anything so unimaginably stupid and vile) and normal group dynamic behaviors - ones that we see in experimental psychology all the time - promptly asserted themselves, until you got the atrocity that we saw here. It wasn't an atrocity. It was Boys and Girls Behaving Badly. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Oh, and Gary forgot to mention: The Iraqi's name was Tawanna Brawley. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Denton Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 6:28 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture Here is the url - http://www.sundayherald.com/41693 Don't just blame untrained unsupervised Americans either: The British pictures show a hooded Iraqi aged between 18-20 on the floor of a military truck being brutalised. According to two squaddies who took part in the torture, but later blew the whistle, the Iraqi's ordeal lasted eight hours and he was left with a broken jaw and missing teeth. He was bleeding and vomited when his captors threw him out of a speeding truck. No-one knows if he lived or died. One of the British soldiers said: Basically this guy was dying as he couldn't take any more. An officer came down. It was 'Get rid of him - I haven't seen him'. The other whistle-blower said he had witnessed a prisoner being beaten senseless by troops. You could hear your mate's boots hitting this lad's spine ... One of the lads broke his wrist off a prisoner's head. Another nearly broke his foot kicking him. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Gary, in ugly self-loathing American mode: So we aren't like Saddam because our guys are wimps and not bloody enough? It amazes me what you liberals can say and not think you need to wipe your mouths with toilet paper. You really think the only reason that those soldiers didn't rape mutilate instead of haze humiliate is they were too chicken? How stupid can you be? That's not a rhetorical question, I want to find out if you know. None of this takes away from how serious I think this is. Every single one of those soldiers who went Animal House should do hard time, because that's about the only way to send a message to other testosterone-crazed 20 year olds of both sexes that they better knock it off. In terms of ultimate moral seriousness, I place this about 3 points higher than the antics of Jenna Bush. In terms of PR, it's a complete disaster. Clearly, if we're going to send 20 year olds over there, we need to do a better job of teaching them table manners. Now, one thing that's starting to bother me, looking at the pictures on the web and listening to the false-ringing bullshit from the military, is the possibility that what these kids did is tip of the iceberg. What if these kids (and they are kids) did this because everyone else was doing it, and they just were the dumbest, not the most brutal? I'm not at all convinced right now that this behavior is atypical of how we're treating Iraqi prisoners. And if I don't get convinced of the atypicality pretty soon, I want to see people up the chain of command in serious trouble, including jail time. Starting with Brigadier General Dumbitch Waa Waa or whatever her name is. I must look up funny. Well, don't look up too long, or you'll drown if it rains. Mike Lee Islamic Moderate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop: I should add that one of the mercenaries conducting the interrogations apparently raped one of the male prisoners. Is that more like Saddam for you Mike? Prove it and I'll condemn it. Was it a West Virginia girl? If so, I'm not surprised. You know how those West Virginia girls are. Did she use a strap on? Did she whittle it while sitting on her front porch playing the banjo? Also, because he was not a soldier but a contractor he isn't facing charges. We don't want to put him in an Iraqi prison, no crime has been committed in the US, and the US doesn't recognize the World Court. Where do you get this shit? Seriously, I want to know. And fuck the World Court with Lynndie's strapon, by the way. The pictures of US soldiers torturing their captives have the added horror of sexual abuse. In five of the 14 images that the Sunday Herald has seen, a female soldier - identified as Lynndie England, a 21-year-old from a West Virginia trailer park - is playing up to the camera while her captives are tortured. In one picture, she's smiling and giving the thumbs-up. Her hand rests on the buttocks of a naked and hooded Iraqi who has been forced to sit on the shoulders of another Iraqi prisoner. Point with alarm! Point with alarm! I'm not horrified. I'm annoyed. Somehow, I think Iraqis accustomed to living under the real horrors of Saddam will put into context the horrors of being sexually harassed by West Virginia trailer trash. In another, she is sprawled laughing over a pyramid of naked Iraqis. A male colleague stands behind her grinning. Later, she's got a cigarette clenched between grinning lips and is pointing at the genitals of a line of naked, hooded Iraqis. A third snap shows her embracing a colleague as a naked Iraqi lies before them. Clearly, Private Lynndie needs sensitivity training. on to each other's backs. One dreadful picture features nothing but the bloated face of an Iraqi who has been beaten to death. His body is wrapped in plastic. Prove it. Seriously. Dead Iraqis (and dead anybodys) look like hell after they die. If the American military is in any widespread way tacitly or otherwise condoning and encouraging such abuses, I'll go maddog on them instead of just on you stupid liberals. The last thing the last defenders of Western civilization need to do is to give free ammunition to you liberal slackers. Other pictures, which the world has not seen, but which are in the hands of the US military, include shots of a dog attacking a prisoner. An accused soldier says dogs are used for intimidation factors. Pictures, not rumours. Please. Thank you. There are also pictures of an apparent male rape. An Iraqi PoW claims that a civilian translator, hired to work in the prison, raped a male juvenile prisoner. He said: They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming ... and the female soldier was taking pictures. Substantiate or retract. If you don't do either, you are on the other side. I'm giving you every chance to ram my words down my throat, like an American solder ramming a toilet plunger up an Iraqi prisoner's ass. If you can prove it, I'll turn right around and hold Bush to account like I hold you anti-Western idiots to account. No, it won't make you right, and it won't make you smart, but at least it will take my attention off you for a while, and isn't that worth something? Mike Lee Easter Bunny ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: March for Women's Lives
At 02:10 AM 5/5/04, Mike Lee wrote: Ronn insults my offspring: I sincerely \*hope*\ that the answer is zero, and also that he is single, otherwise I feel very sorry for some poor unfortunate woman and some innocent children . . . Ronn is very sorry. I'm am indeed very sorry, but the only thing or person I am very sorry for is any woman who has the misfortune to be in a relationship with such a misogynist, and for any child unfortunate to have such an [entirely appropriate insult elided so as not to offend other innocent parties who might read this] as a father, be it biological, adoptive, or step-. Trolls 'R' U Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Winning the War on Terror
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 12:29 AM Subject: Re: Winning the War on Terror -- From: Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Who are you responding to? Don't snip context. --- Sorry, gmail always stacks the conversation based on subject and provides no easy way to snip headers. The following was what I was responding to. Windows and other operating systems have copy/paste built in from the ground up. GOOGLEMAIL Does the web have copy/paste built in from the ground up? xponent Shoutout Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Brin: Corporate Media covers Shrub / Saudi Asses
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/national/05DISN.html?ei=5006en=899824 16bdce50c0ex=1084334400partner=ALTAVISTA1pagewanted=printposition= Disney Forbidding Distribution of Film That Criticizes Bush By JIM RUTENBERG ASHINGTON, May 4 The Walt Disney Company is blocking its Miramax division from distributing a new documentary by Michael Moore that harshly criticizes President Bush, executives at both Disney and Miramax said Tuesday. The film, Fahrenheit 911, links Mr. Bush and prominent Saudis including the family of Osama bin Laden and criticizes Mr. Bush's actions before and after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Disney, which bought Miramax more than a decade ago, has a contractual agreement with the Miramax principals, Bob and Harvey Weinstein, allowing it to prevent the company from distributing films under certain circumstances, like an excessive budget or an NC-17 rating. Executives at Miramax, who became principal investors in Mr. Moore's project last spring, do not believe that this is one of those cases, people involved in the production of the film said. If a compromise is not reached, these people said, the matter could go to mediation, though neither side is said to want to travel that route. In a statement, Matthew Hiltzik, a spokesman for Miramax, said: We're discussing the issue with Disney. We're looking at all of our options and look forward to resolving this amicably. But Disney executives indicated that they would not budge from their position forbidding Miramax to be the distributor of the film in North America. Overseas rights have been sold to a number of companies, executives said. We advised both the agent and Miramax in May of 2003 that the film would not be distributed by Miramax, said Zenia Mucha, a company spokeswoman, referring to Mr. Moore's agent. That decision stands. Disney came under heavy criticism from conservatives last May after the disclosure that Miramax had agreed to finance the film when Icon Productions, Mel Gibson's company, backed out. Mr. Moore's agent, Ari Emanuel, said Michael D. Eisner, Disney's chief executive, asked him last spring to pull out of the deal with Miramax. Mr. Emanuel said Mr. Eisner expressed particular concern that it would endanger tax breaks Disney receives for its theme park, hotels and other ventures in Florida, where Mr. Bush's brother, Jeb, is governor. Michael Eisner asked me not to sell this movie to Harvey Weinstein; that doesn't mean I listened to him, Mr. Emanuel said. He definitely indicated there were tax incentives he was getting for the Disney corporation and that's why he didn't want me to sell it to Miramax. He didn't want a Disney company involved. Disney executives deny that accusation, though they said their displeasure over the deal was made clear to Miramax and Mr. Emanuel. A senior Disney executive elaborated that the company had the right to quash Miramax's distribution of films if it deemed their distribution to be against the interests of the company. The executive said Mr. Moore's film is deemed to be against Disney's interests not because of the company's business dealings with the government but because Disney caters to families of all political stripes and believes Mr. Moore's film, which does not have a release date, could alienate many. It's not in the interest of any major corporation to be dragged into a highly charged partisan political battle, this executive said. Miramax is free to seek another distributor in North America, but such a deal would force it to share profits and be a blow to Harvey Weinstein, a big donor to Democrats. Mr. Moore, who will present the film at the Cannes film festival this month, criticized Disney's decision in an interview on Tuesday, saying, At some point the question has to be asked, `Should this be happening in a free and open society where the monied interests essentially call the shots regarding the information that the public is allowed to see?' Mr. Moore's films, like Roger and Me and Bowling for Columbine, are often a political lightning rod, as Mr. Moore sets out to skewer what he says are the misguided priorities of conservatives and big business. They have also often performed well at the box office. His most recent movie, Bowling for Columbine, took in about $22 million in North America for United Artists. His books, like Stupid White Men, a jeremiad against the Bush administration that has sold more than a million copies, have also been lucrative. Mr. Moore does not disagree that Fahrenheit 911 is highly charged, but he took issue with the description of it as partisan. If this is partisan in any way it is partisan on the side of the poor and working people in this country who provide fodder for this war machine, he said. Mr. Moore said the film describes financial connections between the Bush family and its associates and prominent Saudi Arabian families that go back three decades. He said it closely explores the government's role in
Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
- Original Message - From: Mike Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Killer Bs Discussion' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:10 AM Subject: RE: Disturbing evidence of torture The effect of what these young idiots did is huge. How old are you to call them all young? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
On Wed, 5 May 2004 00:10:29 -0700, Mike Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop: sticks and stones I should add that one of the mercenaries conducting the interrogations apparently raped one of the male prisoners. Is that more like Saddam for you Mike? Prove it and I'll condemn it. Was it a West Virginia girl? If so, I'm not surprised. You know how those West Virginia girls are. Did she use a strap on? Did she whittle it while sitting on her front porch playing the banjo? That was not me, that was the newspaper. Also, because he was not a soldier but a contractor he isn't facing charges. We don't want to put him in an Iraqi prison, no crime has been committed in the US, and the US doesn't recognize the World Court. Where do you get this shit? Seriously, I want to know. Why don't you read this first sentence: No civilians, however, are facing charges as military law does not apply to them. Colonel Jill Morgenthaler, from CentCom, said that one civilian contractor was accused along with six soldiers of mistreating prisoners. However, it was left to the contractor to deal with him. http://www.sundayherald.com/41693 i could give you more. And fuck the World Court with Lynndie's strapon, by the way. My, my, tsk, rsk. The pictures of US soldiers torturing their captives have the added horror of sexual abuse. In five of the 14 images that the Sunday Herald has seen, a female soldier - identified as Lynndie England, a 21-year-old from a West Virginia trailer park - is playing up to the camera while her captives are tortured. In one picture, she's smiling and giving the thumbs-up. Her hand rests on the buttocks of a naked and hooded Iraqi who has been forced to sit on the shoulders of another Iraqi prisoner. Point with alarm! Point with alarm! I'm not horrified. I'm annoyed. Somehow, I think Iraqis accustomed to living under the real horrors of Saddam will put into context the horrors of being sexually harassed by West Virginia trailer trash. In another, she is sprawled laughing over a pyramid of naked Iraqis. A male colleague stands behind her grinning. Later, she's got a cigarette clenched between grinning lips and is pointing at the genitals of a line of naked, hooded Iraqis. A third snap shows her embracing a colleague as a naked Iraqi lies before them. Clearly, Private Lynndie needs sensitivity training. on to each other's backs. One dreadful picture features nothing but the bloated face of an Iraqi who has been beaten to death. His body is wrapped in plastic. Prove it. Seriously. Dead Iraqis (and dead anybodys) look like hell after they die. If the American military is in any widespread way tacitly or otherwise condoning and encouraging such abuses, I'll go maddog on them instead of just on you stupid liberals. The last thing the last defenders of Western civilization need to do is to give free ammunition to you liberal slackers. I present you with the newspaper article and you want me to prove it. OK, how many more articles do you want? Other pictures, which the world has not seen, but which are in the hands of the US military, include shots of a dog attacking a prisoner. An accused soldier says dogs are used for intimidation factors. Pictures, not rumours. Please. Thank you. There are also pictures of an apparent male rape. An Iraqi PoW claims that a civilian translator, hired to work in the prison, raped a male juvenile prisoner. He said: They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming ... and the female soldier was taking pictures. Substantiate or retract. If you don't do either, you are on the other side. Again, I am presenting you with a newspaper article read by over hundreds of thousands of people and you want me to prove it, Losing your grip a little? I'm giving you every chance to ram my words down my throat, like an American solder ramming a toilet plunger up an Iraqi prisoner's ass. You seem to lose control easy. Are you are medication for it? Or are these your fantasies? If you can prove it, I'll turn right around and hold Bush to account like I hold you anti-Western idiots to account. I really doubt that. No, it won't make you right, and it won't make you smart, but at least it will take my attention off you for a while, and isn't that worth something? NO Mike Lee Easter Bunny hugs and kisses #1 on google for liberal news ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: What America Does with its Hegemony
On Tue, 04 May 2004 20:10:53 -0500, Steve Sloan II [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, that essentially fixes what I was having so much trouble buying. I couldn't see any reason why Saddam would quit trying to build or buy nuclear weapons, because he certainly wouldn't do it out of the goodness of his heart. These articles give a reason, and I *can* believe that his scientists tried for a long time and failed, then he gave it up to move on to some other scheme after Gulf War I wrecked his facilities. Glad to be of help. #1 on google for liberal news ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is it hot in here?
On Tue, 4 May 2004 20:51:28 -0400 (EDT), Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Seeberger wrote: No turtles?! No elephants either! And without them, our fat mines will run dry! Jim Fifth Elephant Maru Don't worry, our Prez Cheney has a plan. Gary disappointed in Monstrous Regiment but liked Night Watch ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: At a Lunar Eclipse
On Wed, 5 May 2004 04:58:53 +1000, Andrew Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wish I had written this, But its ok that someone did, and I can go outside and watch it. Thy shadow, Earth, from Pole to Central Sea, Now steals along upon the Moon's meek shine In even monochrome and curving line Of imperturbable serenity. How shall I link such sun-cast symmetry With the torn troubled form I know as thine, That profile, placid as a brow divine, With continents of moil and misery? And can immense Mortality but throw So small a shade, and Heaven's high human scheme Be hemmed within the coasts yon arc implies? Is such the stellar gauge of earthly show, Nation at war with nation, brains that teem, Heroes, and women fairer than the skies? Thanks to Thomas Hardy I cannot sleep For the blaze of the full moon. I thought I heard here and there A voice calling. Hopelessly I answer Yes.? To the empty air. Tzu Yeh Chinese- possibly 3rd century CE ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
- Original Message - From: Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:58 AM Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture . I present you with the newspaper article and you want me to prove it. OK, how many more articles do you want? It may be worth mentioning that the source of this is an official report written by a major general. I'm sure M. Lee doesn't hold these reports in as high a regard as his own intuition, but I would guess that he is unique in this. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: March for Women's Lives
Mike Lee wrote: Ronn insults my offspring: I sincerely \*hope*\ that the answer is zero, and also that he is single, otherwise I feel very sorry for some poor unfortunate woman and some innocent children . . . Ronn is very sorry. Feeling very sorry makes him feel very sorry. That gives Ronn a warm fuzzy. And, probably, a Happy Ending. Ick, Ronn, ick! Ew, fuzzy and ick so close together Sounds like a fridge that needs cleaning out! Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: March for Women's Lives
Mike Lee wrote: Julia, expressing her contempt for women who work instead of breed for a living: been eaten alive by undergrads in 3 minutes flat. :P If you can't handle a relatively simple phone system when you're being sent out by a temp agency to be a receptionist, there's very little hope for you in the short run. No, not women that work for a living -- women who agree to sign on for a particular job and then run in panic from it in less than 2 hours. I have nothing but admiration for the woman at the same company who worked 45 hours a week for not much more than minimum wage and did her job well and enthusiastically, even with having a somewhat abusive supervisor. (That same supervisor showed up after lunch somewhat drunk and got a little affectionate towards me, which was perhaps the scariest moment of my tenure there. Oh, and she was a woman, and usually not a huggy one. Usually.) Julia and toddlers can be corralled very easily for short periods of time using a product called Superyard :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
Mike Lee wrote: Julia, the voice of bloody reason: It occurred to me that perhaps the thing to do is to identify all the people who participated in the torture-for-amusement, and turn them over to the Iraqi people. Some sort of justice (or at least poetic justice) would be served, and it would be a hell of a deterrent against anyone else doing anything remotely like it for a good, long time. You sound like one of the Iraqi people. The more bloody-minded, primitive honor-killing sort. You want to lob a rock at Lynndie from West Virginnie? Cast the first stone or shut up. I wasn't harmed in the way the prisoners were harmed. I don't think justice would be served by my stoning someone, but perhaps letting the people who were harmed do the stoning would. Of course, that's incredibly Not Charitable. Yes, it's horrible. Horrible things cross my mind at times. I censor them frequently. This time I didn't. What I really want is for it not to happen again, and it occurred to me that that might be a deterrent. Of course, the death penalty seems not to be a deterrent in a number of crimes, so there's a decent chance it wouldn't work. Your suggestion of hard prison time made in another post is probably the best solution. Leavenworth? Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
On Wed, 5 May 2004 00:10:29 -0700, Mike Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop: Also, because he was not a soldier but a contractor he isn't facing charges. We don't want to put him in an Iraqi prison, no crime has been committed in the US, and the US doesn't recognize the World Court. Where do you get this shit? Seriously, I want to know. And fuck the World Court with Lynndie's strapon, by the way. I should add to my previous and inform the incredulous Mike Lee this is now making it's way to mainstream US press. Begin - Boston Globe:Civilians ID'd in abuse may face no charges A legal loophole could allow four American civilian contractors allegedly involved in the abuse of Iraqi prisoners to escape punishment, US military officials and specialists said yesterday... US commanders in Iraq announced that seven military supervisors have received administrative reprimands over the alleged abuse of the detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, commander of US forces in Iraq, said the investigation into the supervisors -- officers and non-commissioned officers -- was complete and they would not face further proceedings. ... But the four civilian workers identified in an internal army report for their involvement in the physical and sexual mistreatment of the prisoners -- including the alleged rape of one detainee -- cannot be punished under military law, and it is unclear whether they will face any charges under either US or Iraqi laws. end Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/05/04/civilians_idd_in_abuse_may_face_no_charges?mode=PF If Nixon's PR guy, who runs FOXNEWS with memos containing the talking points for the day, permits it, you might eventually hear this stuff Mike. I also dislike the blame you and the others are placing on these poor misguided soldiers in the Army on this. The key word here is misguided. There was a systemic and ongoing problem with abuse and even deaths of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan. This was an military intel and CIA operation whose operative and civilian contractors gave guidance and procedures to follow. There had been three separate Army generals writing reports which the pentagon had for months and refused to act on. The NYT reports, In the last 16 months, the Army has conducted more than 30 criminal investigations into misconduct by American captors in Iraq and Afghanistan, including 10 cases of suspicious death, 10 cases of abuse, and two deaths already determined to have been criminal homicides, the Army's vice chief of staff said Tuesday. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/international/middleeast/05ABUS.html The U.S.-appointed Human Rights Minister in Baghdad, Abdul-Basat al-Turki, said yesterday he had resigned to protest abuses by American guards. He claims he is stepping down not only because I believe that the use of violence is a violation of human rights but also because these methods in the prisons means that the violations are a common act. http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.prisoners05may05,0,7635909.story According to the Financial Times, It has become commonplace for George W. Bush and Tony Blair to assert that the insurgents are enemies of democracy, but it is the US that most Iraqis see as anti-democratic. This is a disastrous image for a nation that waged a war promising freedom and democracy. http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStoryc=StoryFTcid=1083180270210p=1012571727088 The NYT(earlier link) writes, the Pentagon, the State Department and the White House had difficulty explaining why they had not acted earlier and more aggressively to deal with the abuse. One reason: No one wants to admit to having read the report. According to the LA Times, the White House has known about the investigation since December. http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/la-fg-blame5may05.story The report was completed in February. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Richard B. Myers called Dan Rather at CBS three weeks before the story ran and asked the network to hold it; this past Sunday, questioned on Face the Nation, Myers admitted he still hadn't read the report himself. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1083678825499_8/?hub=Entertainment I believe I also saw three week delay admission on Charlie Rose and Nightline. Two days after Myers's admission, President Bush still hadn't read the report and his press secretary attempted to shield him, claiming the president only become aware of the photographs and the Pentagon's main internal report about the incidents from news reports last week. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/international/middleeast/05COMM.html And Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, commenting on the report for the first time yesterday, said while he'd seen a summary and recommendations from the investigation, he hadn't read the full
Re: March for Women's Lives
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 02:10 AM 5/5/04, Mike Lee wrote: Ronn insults my offspring: I sincerely \*hope*\ that the answer is zero, and also that he is single, otherwise I feel very sorry for some poor unfortunate woman and some innocent children . . . Ronn is very sorry. I'm am indeed very sorry, but the only thing or person I am very sorry for is any woman who has the misfortune to be in a relationship with such a misogynist, and for any child unfortunate to have such an [entirely appropriate insult elided so as not to offend other innocent parties who might read this] as a father, be it biological, adoptive, or step-. Trolls 'R' U Maru You know, whoever he is might be a generally nice guy who just needs to bloe off steam, or enjoys a good argument (and if it's the latter, we might not be doing as good a job of it as he'd like). I don't think he's a misogynist so much as someone who has no patience with certain classes of women, and hey, I myself have very little patience with certain classes of women (not necessarily the same classes, but there might be some overlap), but can avoid them a lot of the time. (And if I can't, well, there are worse things than setting down the drink I was waiting in line to pay for and walking out because I don't have any more time to wait for the little blonde ditz to get her act together to actually pay for her cigarettes and soda.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
North Korea Selling Long Range Missles
World Tribune Alleges: http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_5.html N. Korea puts long-range missile on the market SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM Wednesday, May 5, 2004 LONDON North Korea has begun offering its Taepo Dong-2 long-range missile for sale to several nations in the Middle East. Western intelligence sources said the most likely client to purchase the Taepong-2 is Iran. The sources said Teheran has been negotiating with Pyongyang for the purchase of the Taepo Dong-2 for Iran's first intercontinental ballistic missile as well as a space launcher. On Tuesday, the South Korean daily Chosun Ilbo reported that North Korea was constructing two underground bases for the Taepo Dong-2. Quoting a South Korean intelligence official, the newspaper said Pyongyang has completed 80 percent of the work on the bases in a development that signaled the imminent deployment of the Taepo Dong-2. The main source of North Korea's hard currency has been missile sales, primarily to the Middle East. Pyongyang's leading clients have been identified as Egypt, Iran, Libya, Pakistan, Syria and Yemen, Middle East Newsline reported. The Taepo Dong-2 is estimated to have a range of more than 4,000 kilometers. U.S. officials said the missile's range could be extended to 6,500 kilometers, which would enable any Taepo Dong-2 fired by North Korea to land in the United States. Iran wants an ICBM and China and North Korea are already helping in the development of engines, a senior intelligence source said. North Korea could eventually reach a deal to sell the Taepo Dong-2 to Iran. The sources said that in 2003 North Korea discussed the Taepo Dong-2 with Libya and Syria. But they said neither country pursued the issue. The sources said Iran was also considering the Taepo Dong-2 as the basis for Iran's Shihab-5 missile program. The Shihab-5 was meant to have a range of 5,500 kilometers. The sources said Iran has been completing development of an extended-range Shihab-3 missile, also termed Shihab-4, with a range of about 2,000 kilometers. U.S. intelligence satellites have spotted about 10 new ballistic missiles and mobile launching pads kept at the two places, the South Korean intelligence official was quoted as saying. The intelligence sources said North Korea was developing a long-range Taepo Dong with a range of 6,000 kilometers. In 1998, North Korea launched the Taepo Dong-1 missile with an estimated range of more than 2,000 kilometers. The Western intelligence sources said the United States has tried to stop North Korean missile and weapons of mass destruction exports through the Proliferation Security Initiative. But the sources said the multi-national PSI has not affected North Korean air transports of missiles to Middle East clients. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Michael Ignatieff on Human Rights in the War on Terrror
Michael Ignatieff - the head of the Kennedy School's Carr Center for Human Rights, and author of _Virtual War_ (among other things) has an excellent article in this week's NYTimes Magazine. I don't agree with everything he has said, but it's fascinating and well worth reading. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/02/magazine/02TERROR.html A quick note. One of the things that makes Ignatieff so fascinating is his refreshing realism about force and the US's role in the world. Instead of the self-parodic anti-Americanism and anti-militarism of much of the left, for example, he once described the United States military as the world's foremost human rights organization - and he meant that honestly, not sarcastically. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Weekly Chat Reminder
This is just a quick reminder that the Wednesday Brin-L chat is scheduled for 3 PM Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time, so it started about forty minutes ago. There will probably be somebody there to talk to for at least eight hours after the start time. See my instruction page for help getting there: http://www.brin-l.org/brinmud.html __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Science Fiction-themed online store . http://www.sloan3d.com/store Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
- Original Message - From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 6:35 PM Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture --- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm a bit disturbed that Rumsfeld, just now, appears to have been shocked as I have, and as you haven't. My shock was partially based on the assumption that the US occupation force was competent enough to provide as good a prison environment as possible. I expected there to be good supervision, and for treatment to be exemplary...mainly because it is very much in our self interest to do so. Well, my lack of shock was more based on a (very) cynical opinion of how organizations react under stress, and an equally low opinion of how bad prison conditions are in the US. From what I could see, it looked like the Stanford Prison Experiment run in real life - but given what happened in that experiment, nothing we saw was all _that_ suprising. But, that's what standard procedures and planning are for. I've quickly read the Army report, and it appears that there was a massive breakdown on a number of levels that fostered this. She is not some private, she is a general. To be fair, she also has a very high incentive to claim that she was unable to succeed in her position, whether or not that was the case. I realize that; my point is either way, it looks very bad. If she was able to suceed in her position, then to have a general whine like this is unacceptable. Someone who does this poorly when given all the needed resources to do a good job should never have been put in that position. But, the Army report indicates to me that things were just slapped together. MPs who were use to traffic control and who were told they'd come home quickly were pressed into long term prison duty, with virtually no training. They were severly understaffed for a normal prison population...and the actual population was twice capacity. Further, the prison was 60% full of people who should have been released. They couldn't even figure out who was there. I certainly do not absolve her of responsibility. While I think she was not given the resources to do the job properly, she still had the resources to do the job far better than she did. Issuing orders to fix problems and not following up to see if the orders were carried out is inexcusable. Not instituting real training is inexcusable. Not setting up a means of tracking prisoners is inexcusable. My arguement is that all the blame cannot be placed on her and her subordinates. Management by wishful thinking and denial also seems to be involved. At any rate, in a purely analytical sense, here's my guess as to what happened (assuming that this wasn't ordered by higher-ups, which strikes me as unlikely just because that would be too stupid for words). Some high-value prisoners were probably being aggressively interrogated. That ethos spread through much of the prison. The particular guards involved with this were a bunch of fuck-ups. They picked up that ethos, had no adult supervision (because, at least in part and from my experience with them, American officers tend to have a blind spot about things like this, in part because of their excellent historical record and in part because they're used to dealing with highly competent regulars, not idiots like these clowns, and those regulars would - I'm guessing - never do anything so unimaginably stupid and vile) and normal group dynamic behaviors - ones that we see in experimental psychology all the time - promptly asserted themselves, until you got the atrocity that we saw here. My take is a bit different from that. From what I've gathered, at least one picture shows additional people being involved. Civilians contractors were freelancing in the prision. That lack of control in the prison would all G. Gordon Liddy types to strut their stuff and give wink and nod orders to the MPs. Talking about making sure that prisoner has a hard night tonight is an example of this. In addition, public comments about not having to follow the Geneva convention, the use of other countries to do dirty work for the US with terrorists, as well as agreesive interrogations may have contributed to a change in the climate. It would be easy for freelancers who need to produce results to justify their consulting fees to think that 9-11 produced a whole new world. It is also possible that more senior officers were looking the other way when boundaries were pushed. Not as far as shown in the pictures, mind you, but enough to promote the idea if you get results, I won't ask how you got them. Finally, the folks involved did have adult supervision. We are not talking about a bunch of 19 year olds here. I couldn't get every age, but the NCO was 37. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
- Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 3:21 PM Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture That lack of control in the prison would all G. Gordon Liddy types to strut their stuff and give wink and nod orders allow Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: More on the environmental movement
- Original Message - From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 12:30 PM Subject: Re: More on the environmental movement There's a huge difference between legislating against McDonald's hamburgers and keeping kids from going blind, Debbi. But, the example that Debbie gave was folate enrichment of various cereal/grain products. I'd argue that this is closer to preventing blindness than legislating against McDonald's hamburgers. I'll agree its not nearly as important as the examples you gave, but it is an easy means to improve nutrition without restricting free choices of people. It seems to me that the third world examples you gave are critical and important; the McDonalds example is foolish, and Debbie's example is a fairly easy change like iodized salt. I would guess Debbie would agree with this, and I'd be curious to see if/why you might conder enrichment as an example of a nanny state. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
On Wed, 5 May 2004 15:34:34 -0500, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That lack of control in the prison would all G. Gordon Liddy types to strut their stuff and give wink and nod orders allow Absolutely, and you are overlooking that the general wasn';t even allowed in that part of the prison. This is the ultramacho CIA types that have been active since the 50's being given free access to run wild and have the Army in a support rule and the Army getting the blame if anything leaks out. #1 on google for liberal news ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Irregulars: Sending messages on days your computer wasn't on
Yes, that was spoofing. The big worms this year all spoof the sending address and yours can be harvested and passed along. You end up getting spam virus attacks and auto virus responders as well. My yahoo account was getting overwhelmed until Yahoo switched to not counting Spam in the memory limit. Gary #1 on google for liberal news On Wed, 05 May 2004 15:46:27 -0500, Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: Is this another example of the spoofing that goes on, as happened to me last month and apparently Sonja last week? Message text in entirety below. Note that I wasn't in the office at all on the day a contaminated message was supposedly sent from 'me.' I also don't know a Dina Gadon. Debbi The answer to your question is yes. At this point, they should stop using the automated bounce-back for viruses, as chances are the *least* likely person to have the virus is the one in the from field. My best guess is that someone is infected who has both you and Dina Gadon in their address book. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
- Original Message - From: Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 4:38 PM Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture On Wed, 5 May 2004 15:34:34 -0500, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That lack of control in the prison would all G. Gordon Liddy types to strut their stuff and give wink and nod orders allow Absolutely, and you are overlooking that the general wasn';t even allowed in that part of the prison. This is the ultramacho CIA types that have been active since the 50's being given free access to run wild and have the Army in a support rule and the Army getting the blame if anything leaks out. I read the report that is the source of most information and didn't see any indication that she wasn't allowed in that part of the prison. I certainly got the impression that she didn't practice management by walking around, but nothing, including her statements, that indicated that she would have been stopped from entering. That she wasn't in charge, yes; but not that she wasn't allowed in. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: More on the environmental movement
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems to me that the third world examples you gave are critical and important; the McDonalds example is foolish, and Debbie's example is a fairly easy change like iodized salt. I would guess Debbie would agree with this, and I'd be curious to see if/why you might conder enrichment as an example of a nanny state. Dan M. I'd need to know more specifics. I have no objection to it, although I would not be thrilled by governments _mandating_ it either. So far as I am aware, no one is suggesting that Third World countries legally require that farmers grow golden rice - just that it be made available to them. I would describe governments mandating it as creeping nanny-state-ism, but so minor that I wouldn't get excited about it either. Going after McDonald's is the stereotype of nanny-state-ism and I would get excited about that. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
On Wed, 5 May 2004 16:58:23 -0500, Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read the report that is the source of most information and didn't see any indication that she wasn't allowed in that part of the prison. I certainly got the impression that she didn't practice management by walking around, but nothing, including her statements, that indicated that she would have been stopped from entering. That she wasn't in charge, yes; but not that she wasn't allowed in. I can't find that exact wording right now. I was sure that was the impression she conveyed when I saw her.on Nightline I believe. Here is another TV appearance where she says that section was under the control of military intelligence commanders. The wording from the Baltimore Sun is: In an interview on ABC's Good Morning America, Karpinski, a business consultant when not in uniform, said yesterday that she had no knowledge of the abuses and would have reacted very quickly if she had. She said the sections of Abu Ghraib where the abuses took place, cellblocks 1A and 1B, were under the control of military intelligence commanders, who encouraged military police to soften up the detainees for interrogations. It was not an MP, military police, leadership issue, Karpinski said. This was an interrogation and isolation procedure issue, and that was run and orchestrated by a separate command from the military police brigade. She told Army investigators that the military intelligence officers had given her troops 'ideas that led to the detainee abuse, according to Taguba. A very troubling report: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.leadership04may04,0,4756527.story?coll=bal-home-headlines Here is another report that that section discouraged her from entering and tried to cover-up and exclude conditions from the Red Cross. Maybe they should have asked Saddam for tips. The former head of US military prisons in Iraq, Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, who was relieved of her command earlier this year, yesterday alleged that military intelligence officers discouraged her from entering the cell block at Abu Ghraib where they interrogated prisoners. They also went to great lengths to try to exclude the International Red Cross from their prison wing. A US military investigation, carried out by Major General Antonio Taguba, uncovered evidence of war crimes against the inmates, including: breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; sodomising a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick. The New Yorker magazine, which obtained a complete copy of the report, observed: General Taguba saved his harshest words for the military intelligence officers and private contractors. The prison, and that particular cell block where the events took place, were under the control of the MI [military intelligence] command, she said. She conceded that she probably should have been more aggressive about visiting the cell block, particularly after military intelligence officers went to great lengths to try to exclude the ICRC (International Committee for the Red Cross) from access to that interrogation wing. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1208332,00.html Let's get someone else as well as the general talking about that section: A soldier accused of abusing prisoners at the Abu Ghraib facility wrote to his family last December that military intelligence officers encouraged the mistreatment, according to correspondence provided by the soldier's family. We have had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break, the soldier, Staff Sgt. Ivan L. Chip Frederick II, wrote in a Dec. 18 e-mail released by Frederick's uncle. They usually end up breaking within hours. Frederick also wrote that he questioned some of the abuses. I questioned this and the answer I got was: This is how military intelligence wants it done, he wrote. The Army Reserve commander who oversaw the prison said that military intelligence, rather than the military police, dictated the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib. The prison, and that particular cellblock where the events took place, were under the control of the MI command, Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski said in a telephone interview Saturday night from her home in Hilton Head, S.C. Karpinski, who commanded the 800th Military Police Brigade, also described a high-pressure atmosphere that prized successful interrogations. A month before the alleged abuses occurred, she said, a team of military intelligence officers from the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, came to Abu Ghraib last year. Their main and specific mission was to get the interrogators -- give them new techniques to get more information from detainees, she said. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59750-2004May1.html For those like Mike Lee saying this was just
Re: March for Women's Lives
On Wed, 05 May 2004 11:46:44 -0500, Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You know, whoever he is might be a generally nice guy who just needs to bloe off steam, or enjoys a good argument (and if it's the latter, we might not be doing as good a job of it as he'd like). I don't think he's a misogynist so much as someone who has no patience with certain classes of women, and hey, I myself have very little patience with certain classes of women (not necessarily the same classes, but there might be some overlap), but can avoid them a lot of the time. (And if I can't, well, there are worse things than setting down the drink I was waiting in line to pay for and walking out because I don't have any more time to wait for the little blonde ditz to get her act together to actually pay for her cigarettes and soda.) Julia I think you are a little too nice over some of his outrageous statements but I have been in a snarky mood lately. Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: March for Women's Lives
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 10:56 AM Subject: Re: March for Women's Lives Mike Lee wrote: Ronn insults my offspring: I sincerely \*hope*\ that the answer is zero, and also that he is single, otherwise I feel very sorry for some poor unfortunate woman and some innocent children . . . Ronn is very sorry. Feeling very sorry makes him feel very sorry. That gives Ronn a warm fuzzy. And, probably, a Happy Ending. Ick, Ronn, ick! Ew, fuzzy and ick so close together Sounds like a fridge that needs cleaning out! Or like a sick aquarium. xponent Cichlids Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Disturbing evidence of torture
- Original Message - From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 7:00 PM Subject: Re: Disturbing evidence of torture - Original Message - From: Mike Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Killer Bs Discussion' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 2:10 AM Subject: RE: Disturbing evidence of torture And fuck the World Court with Lynndie's strapon, by the way. Wl...if it was good for you, then I guess it's good enough for the world court. A whole new way to look at put a sock on it. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Baseball Sells 'Spider-Man' Ads on Bases
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040505/D82CMJ380.html Spider-Man is coming to a base near you. In the latest example of a sponsor's stamp on the sports world, ads for the movie Spider-Man 2 will be placed atop bases at 15 major league ballparks during games from June 11-13. The promotion, announced Wednesday, is part of baseball's pitch to appeal to younger fans - and make money along the way. This was a unique chance to combine what is a sort of a universally popular character and our broad fan base, including the youth market we're trying to reach out to, said Bob DuPuy, baseball's chief operating officer. It doesn't impact the play or performance of the game. While commemorative logos have been on bases for special events such as the All-Star game or World Series, the Hall of Fame knew of no other commercial ads on bases, spokesman Jeff Idelson said. Nowadays, ads can show up just about anywhere in sports. Telecasts of major league and college football games, for example, include virtual ads visible just to TV viewers. College football bowl games are named for advertisers. Boxers' backs bear stenciled ads. Just last week, a court ruled that Kentucky Derby jockeys could wear sponsors' patches on their uniforms. I guess it's inevitable, but it's sad, said Fay Vincent, a former baseball commissioner and former president of Columbia Pictures, which is releasing Spider-Man 2. I'm old-fashioned. I'm a romanticist. I think the bases should be protected from this. I feel the same way I do when I see jockeys wears ads: Maybe this is progress, but there's something in me that regrets it very much, he added. The movie promotion has been in the works for more than a year and will include ad buys and ballpark events, such as giving masks to fans, said Jacqueline Parkes, baseball's senior vice president for marketing and advertising. The ads, about 4-by-4-inches with a red background and yellow webbing, won't appear on home plate. Spider-Man 2 opens June 30, and the weekend in early June was picked because it is during interleague play, which draws higher attendance than usual. We need to reach out to a younger demographic to bring them to the ballpark, Parkes said. They are looking for nontraditional breakthrough ways to convey 'Spider-Man' messaging. ... It's the future of how we generate excitement inside the stadium and about the game itself. Baseball will receive about $3.6 million in a deal negotiated by Major League Baseball Properties with Marvel Studios and Columbia Pictures, a division of Sony Inc., a high-ranking baseball executive said on condition of anonymity. The New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox will get more than $100,000 each, one team executive said, also on condition of anonymity. Most of the other 13 teams playing at home that weekend will get about $50,000 apiece, the team executive said. Parkes said the amount a team receives depends on the level of its participation. Geoffrey Ammer, president of marketing for the Columbia TriStar Motion Picture Group, was not immediately available for comment, spokesman Steve Elzer said. Ralph Nader, a presidential candidate and consumer advocate, criticized the deal. He wrote Tuesday to baseball commissioner Bud Selig, denouncing the decision to have ads on uniforms during the season-opening series in March between the Yankees and Tampa Bay Devil Rays in Tokyo. It's gotten beyond grotesque, Nader said. The fans have to revolt here. Otherwise, they'll be looking at advertisements between advertisements. Gary Ruskin, executive director of Commercial Alert, called for baseball fans to boycott Sony products. Nader is the chair of the organization's advisory board. In separate promotions, the bases also will feature pink ribbons Sunday as part of a Mother's Day promotion to raise breast-cancer awareness, and they will have blue ribbons on Father's Day, June 20, to raise prostate-cancer awareness. John Hirschbeck, head of the World Umpires Association, said the ads won't make it harder for umpires to make calls at the bases. And it wouldn't bother him if umpires' uniforms had ads - as long as they share the profit. We've got it on jockeys' pants. Why not? he said. Vincent, brought into baseball by commissioner A. Bartlett Giamatti, wondered how his friend would have reacted. Giamatti, who died in 1989, rhapsodized about baseball is essays such as The Green Fields of the Mind, in which he referred to second base as a jagged rock in the middle of the field. Wherever he is, Bart is spinning, Vincent said. It's a good thing he's not around. xponent Travesty Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: March for Women's Lives
At 11:46 AM 5/5/04, Julia Thompson wrote: You know, whoever he is might be a generally nice guy who just needs to bloe off steam, At 02:10 AM 5/5/04, Mike Lee wrote: And f$ck the World Court with Lynndie's strapon, by the way. Umm . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Disturbing evidence of torture
At 02:10 AM 5/5/04, Mike Lee wrote: Gary Denton, credulous to the last drop: I should add that one of the mercenaries conducting the interrogations apparently raped one of the male prisoners. Is that more like Saddam for you Mike? Prove it and I'll condemn it. Was it a West Virginia girl? If so, I'm not surprised. You know how those West Virginia girls are. Did she use a strap on? Did she whittle it while sitting on her front porch playing the banjo? I doubt it, unless she has at least twice the usual number of arms. Forewarned Is Four-Armed Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: March for Women's Lives
Robert Seeberger wrote: - Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 10:56 AM Subject: Re: March for Women's Lives Mike Lee wrote: Ronn insults my offspring: I sincerely \*hope*\ that the answer is zero, and also that he is single, otherwise I feel very sorry for some poor unfortunate woman and some innocent children . . . Ronn is very sorry. Feeling very sorry makes him feel very sorry. That gives Ronn a warm fuzzy. And, probably, a Happy Ending. Ick, Ronn, ick! Ew, fuzzy and ick so close together Sounds like a fridge that needs cleaning out! Or like a sick aquarium. Not having had firsthand experience with an aquarium, I can't comment to that. I have a fair amount of experience with refrigerators, though. (I think the worst was when I was away from college for a couple of weeks because my father was dying, then died, and my roommate unplugged the fridge at some point without any regard for the contents.) Julia or was it the cream cheese that had been open for about 25 days when I peeked into the package? (Not my fridge) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: What America Does with its Hegemony
/vbbb Gautam Mukunda wrote: http://oxblog.blogspot.com/2004_05_02_oxblog_archive.html#1083 58591971936946 Ritu, Andrew, I'm sure the Iraqis would be _much_ better off if nothing like this ever happened there. I am willing to make a bet that no report of this, or anything like it, will show up in the supposedly independent news sources that you two rely on. Well, I dunno how many papers carried that story - there are thousands of reports on Iraq each day and I don't read all of them. However, I have read this story before as Oxblog is one of my regular haunts. I don't agree with their every assessment but they do spend a lot of time keeping up with the news. Besides, David Adnesik is a pleasure to argue with - not only is he intelligent, he can actually defend his ideas without assuming that everyone who disagrees with him is uninformed. Ritu, who wonders why Gautam keeps on making assumptions about her news sources instead of just asking her ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: What America Does with its Hegemony
--- Ritu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ritu, who wonders why Gautam keeps on making assumptions about her news sources instead of just asking her Gautam has spent long enough on this list that his patience is entirely worn out, which occasionally shows up in unwarranted sarcasm. The masturbatory echo chamber is quite remarkably wearying if you stand against the accepted orthodoxy. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: What America Does with its Hegemony
--- Ritu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ritu, who wonders why Gautam keeps on making assumptions about her news sources instead of just asking her And, Ritu, to be fair to myself I could ask you the same. If you want to posture about how I'm unobjective or the superiority of your foreign news sources, you can certainly expect some of the same back. I daresay I have my own ways of getting information that stand up to those of most people outside the government. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
