Re: Re: Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
I'll admit it was a rather terse comment fueled mostly by being totally sick of the subject. It appears you interpret all critical comments as insults. No, the comment was not critical. A critical comment would be constructive. Your comment, however, only served one purpose - to demean people of faith. As there was nothing in that comment implying that I am an atheist, Your comment that religion is a crutch quickly placed you in the company of atheists and atheist-leaning agnostics. I suppose that it is possible, though in my assessment - unlikely -, that you are a non-religious spiritualist... but as you said, you don't normally participate in these discussions, so I can't say for sure. If so, please accept my apology. Still, I stand by my previous point that there is a group of Brin-L'ers who have a distinct hostility to religion, and are in large part atheist. Moreover, these people have demonstrated a complete inability to discuss the topic of religion civilly, and instead only post various zingers and insults on this topic, without providing any constructive comment or examination of other viewpoints. In my mind, the collective sum of these actions from multiple posters are working directly contrary to the formation of the kind of Community that the majority of Brin-L wants this List to be. Lastly, it should be noted that zingers and insults in posts otherwise devoid of meaningful comment, from religious Brin-L'ers against atheist and non-religious Brin-Lers, is virtually unheard of here - which I find curious, to say the least. Its not like anyone has tried to make atheists feel unwelcome here the way some people have tried to make the religious feel unwelcome here. JDG ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
John said: JDG - You atheists are really doing yourselves proud here. Hey, can I be one of the Intolerant Atheists too? It looks like such fun! ;) Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
-Original Message- From: John D. Giorgis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 12:19 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Ronnn! Religion is a crutch. Surprise!!! Its amazing that so many messages have been devoted to dissecting what [EMAIL PROTECTED] precisely meant by this insult. Of course, there's only one thing you need to know about this comment - the count of Brin-L atheists who are unable to discuss religion with a modicum of basic civillity has now reached at least four. JDG - You atheists are really doing yourselves proud here. Allright, I take offense to this. I have not seen any criticism of anything I have posted in the last two weeks, and I have tackled the subject hard. If anything, I have been criticized for being too moderate in my discussion by other atheists. I have written about my own personal discovery into why people are religious, and have publicly apologized if I had offended anyone with what I had posted. If you are going to make a list, please allow those who are being accused of being uncivil in this matter to face their accuser by actually listing the names. BTW - How much is a modicum (in Metric please)? Nerd From Hell ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 10:01:11PM +0530, Ritu wrote: Not without some effort on your part, Mr. Baker. Say something scathing, snide, nasty, intolerant... You have to have your fun before claiming the badge, I'm afraid. Oh, shut up, you religious ninny! -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
Erik Reuter wrote: Not without some effort on your part, Mr. Baker. Say something scathing, snide, nasty, intolerant... You have to have your fun before claiming the badge, I'm afraid. Oh, shut up, you religious ninny! Hmm, that's close but not quite good enough. Not to be overly critical, but you really need to be more abrasive and offensive. 'Shut up' is just too direct to be nasty enough. Besides, it is not a phrase that has much effect in the middle of an argument. 'Religious' would hardly be taken as an insult by people who believe in God. Is there an English equivalent of 'kattarpanthi' - somebody who is foolishly, bitterly bound to the rituals/portions of the text? 'Ninny' is certainly a fighting word...but that just makes it one word out of six. Not efficient enough, I'm afraid. Ritu GCU Attempt Again, If You Wish GSV Standards, People! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Ronnn! Religion is a crutch. Surprise!!! I replied: Crutch? I believe the phrase you were looking for is, useful tool. Erik responded: A crutch is only a useful tool if part(s) of your body is disabled. In depression, part of the normal chemical processing of the brain *is* disabled. One common category of drugs used to treat depression is SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitors). Normally, a neuron sends a chemical signal to another neuron in part by releasing serotonin. Some of that serotonin is taken up by the receiving neuron, and some is reabsorbed into the sending neuron. In some depressed people, the sending neuron reabsorbs or re-uptakes too much of that serotonin, and SSRIs are a useful chemical tool to reduce the amount of serotonin that can be reabsorbed. The article said that religion is another useful tool in fighting depression. Reggie Bautista _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 04:09:39AM -0500, Reggie Bautista wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Ronnn! Religion is a crutch. Surprise!!! I replied: Crutch? I believe the phrase you were looking for is, useful tool. Erik responded: A crutch is only a useful tool if part(s) of your body is disabled. In depression, part of the normal chemical processing of the brain *is* disabled. Good, that was the point. Another thing about crutches is that they are usually temporary -- they are discarded when the injury is cured. (If the injury is uncurable, then the permanent tool used isn't usually called a crutch) It is also worth noting that the usefulness of such a crutch is limited if the user becomes addicted to it. Then one simply replaces one disability with another. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 13:38:25 -0500, Reggie Bautista wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Ronnn! Religion is a crutch. Surprise!!! Crutch? I believe the phrase you were looking for is, useful tool. I don't find fear, myth and delusion to be useful tools. Lasting solutions are found in the real world. Concepts such as community and purpose can help depression. Religion arrives at these somewhat dishonestly IMO. No solution based on a lie will be successful in the long term. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
Erik Reuter wrote: Good, that was the point. Another thing about crutches is that they are usually temporary -- they are discarded when the injury is cured. (If the injury is uncurable, then the permanent tool used isn't usually called a crutch) It is also worth noting that the usefulness of such a crutch is limited if the user becomes addicted to it. Then one simply replaces one disability with another. You are arguing from the assumption that religion's *only* role is to be a crutch. Religion's crutch effect in regards to depression is most likely simply a side effect of intrinsically motivated religiousness, and is certainly not the main reason people have spiritual beliefs. In fact, according to the article, if you try to become religious just to fight depression, the study would define you as having extrinsically motivated religiousness, which was defined in part as This is what this religion can do for me. That isn't to say, of course, that depression can't lead people to intrinsically motivated religiousness, or following a set of spiritual or religious beliefs because of a sincere belief that doing so is correct as the article puts it. Reggie Bautista _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Ronnn! Religion is a crutch. Surprise!!! Its amazing that so many messages have been devoted to dissecting what [EMAIL PROTECTED] precisely meant by this insult. Of course, there's only one thing you need to know about this comment - the count of Brin-L atheists who are unable to discuss religion with a modicum of basic civillity has now reached at least four. JDG - You atheists are really doing yourselves proud here. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
At 03:18 PM 6/29/2003 -0400, you wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Ronnn! Religion is a crutch. Surprise!!! Its amazing that so many messages have been devoted to dissecting what [EMAIL PROTECTED] precisely meant by this insult. Of course, there's only one thing you need to know about this comment - the count of Brin-L atheists who are unable to discuss religion with a modicum of basic civillity has now reached at least four. JDG - You atheists are really doing yourselves proud here. Just so you count me as a non-religious person in anyway shape or form as one who is civil. Kevin T. - VRWC Does not talking about it count? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
Of course, there's only one thing you need to know about this comment - the count of Brin-L atheists who are unable to discuss religion with a modicum of basic civillity has now reached at least four. JDG - You atheists are really doing yourselves proud here. I see. Criticizing an idea the JDG believes in makes one uncivil. There must be a lot of uncivil people in JDG's world. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
I cut pasted a bit: Ronn! posted (from article): Other findings revolved around the distinction between what the researchers called intrinsically and extrinsically motivated religiousness. Intrinsic motivation means practicing religion for religion's sake -- praying, meditating and serving because of a sincere belief that doing so is correct. Extrinsically motivated people practice religion for social reasons -- they see church as a chance to build non-faith-based social networks or think, This is what religion can do for me --- Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Ronnn! Religion is a crutch. Surprise!!! I replied: Crutch? I believe the phrase you were looking for is, useful tool. Erik responded: A crutch is only a useful tool if part(s) of your body is disabled. In depression, part of the normal chemical processing of the brain *is* disabled. One common category of drugs used to treat depression is SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitors)...snip ...and SSRIs are a useful chemical tool to reduce the amount of serotonin that can be reabsorbed. The article said that religion is another useful tool in fighting depression. I'm going to home in on that idea from another angle. To borrow from Chad's idea that spirituality, which involves the experience of numinous moments (sorry, I forget who to credit with that phrase), is enabled by (a) specific gene(s), it may be that having these genes confers some protection from depression. We know that depression has a genetic component, with of course a large influence by environment/nurture; we also know that individuals with a high connectivity factor, which in studies includes a supportive circle of family/friends, volunteerism, significant spiritual or religious activity, active social life etc., suffer less from depression. In an earlier post I linked connectivity with spirituality, but I do not think they are ennabled by the same hypothetical (or theoretical, if you prefer - I'm not looking for a semantics brou-ha-ha here! ;} ) gene(s), although they might be in close proximity (on the actual chromosome), as they do seem to be linked, frequently. So what the article calls intrinsically motivated religiousness I'd guess involves the presence of 'spirituality' genes. BTW, I think the genetic component idea makes a lot of sense; just as someone who has red/green color blindness *cannot* experience those particular colors as most of us do, someone without the 'spirituality' gene(s) cannot experience 'numinous moments' (or maybe with enhancement i.e. drugs/fasting they can, at least a little), and someone without the 'connectedness' gene(s) cannot feel 'universal oneness.' Evidence for the huge effect of nurture (or rather, lack thereof) on 'connectivity' exists in the clinical syndrome of attachment disorder. Debbi Storm And Sunlight Outside My Window As I Write Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
On Sunday, June 29, 2003, at 08:18 pm, John D. Giorgis wrote: snip Don't feed the troll. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible. - Bertrand Russell ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 15:18:45 -0400 (EDT), John D. Giorgis wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Ronnn! Religion is a crutch. Surprise!!! Its amazing that so many messages have been devoted to dissecting what [EMAIL PROTECTED] precisely meant by this insult. Of course, there's only one thing you need to know about this comment - the count of Brin-L atheists who are unable to discuss religion with a modicum of basic civillity has now reached at least four. I'll admit it was a rather terse comment fueled mostly by being totally sick of the subject. It appears you interpret all critical comments as insults. JDG - You atheists are really doing yourselves proud here. As there was nothing in that comment implying that I am an atheist, and I don't recall being involved in these discussions before, I'll assume you are just trying to fill out your enemies list. Let me know when I make the next level. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
Thank you Ronnn! Religion is a crutch. Surprise!!! On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 21:53:22 -0500, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: http://byunews.byu.edu/releases/release.aspx?y=archive03m=Junf=re ligdepress Contact: Grant Madsen (801) 422-9206 Religiousness associated with less depression, says BYU/U. of Miami study PROVO, Utah (June 17, 2003)-A new study by Brigham Young University researchers reveals that greater religiousness is associated with fewer symptoms of depression, with religiousness defined broadly as any attitude, belief or behavior involving spiritual or religious content. The findings suggest that religiousness may provide certain types of religious people with a buffer against depression, says Timothy Smith, a BYU associate professor of counseling psychology and lead researcher on the study. Joining Smith are Michael E. McCullough, an associate professor of psychology at the University of Miami, and Justin Pole, a BYU graduate student. Published in the latest issue of the American Psychology Association's Psychological Bulletin, the research is an analysis of 147 previous studies that examined religiousness and depression. The results were similar across gender, age or ethnicity and apply regardless of religious denomination. Religiousness was defined broadly as any attitude, belief, motivation, pursuit or behavior involving spiritual or religious content or processes. Ken Pargament, a professor of psychology at Bowling Green State University and author of The Psychology of Religion and Coping: Theory, Research, Practice, says the study adds to the growing understanding of the mental health benefits of religion. This is a sophisticated, up-to-date, balanced approach to the study of religion and one critical dimension of mental health, says Pargament. Furthermore, it moves the field forward by identifying specific forms of religion that are tied to both increases and decreases to the risk of depression. These findings underscore what is common sense to most people -- religion contributes to health and well being. Now we are beginning to learn how and why. Other findings revolved around the distinction between what the researchers called intrinsically and extrinsically motivated religiousness. Intrinsic motivation means practicing religion for religion's sake -- praying, meditating and serving because of a sincere belief that doing so is correct. Extrinsically motivated people practice religion for social reasons -- they see church as a chance to build non-faith-based social networks or think, This is what religion can do for me. The study found that those who practice religion based on extrinsic motivations or who engage in negative religious coping, like blaming God for difficulties, are associated with higher levels of symptoms of depression. For those undergoing stressful life events, the researchers found that the buffer against depression is even stronger. One would think, 'The greater the stress, the greater the depression,' says Smith. But that's not necessarily the case for the intrinsically motivated religious person. Possible explanations for this include the idea that stress may prompt people to turn to religion, to become stronger in their faith in the face of trials. They are turning to God, pleading for help, seeking counsel from scriptures or pastors. Some of the reasons that those who are religious for intrinsic reasons may enjoy a buffer against depressive symptoms and stress include the traditional use of less alcohol and drugs, belief in spiritual intervention and support and belief in an afterlife. Take the example of death. Some religions teach doctrines about an afterlife that may provide a coping mechanism that relieves stress, says Smith. If people truly believe in those teachings and hold to them during times of stress, they can get through the ordeal with less trauma than the non-religious or externally motivated religious person. Additionally, religion tends to teach principles of altruism, which research has shown to be a buffer against depression, says Smith. Self-focus, on the other hand, has been shown to be a factor that tends to increase feelings of depression. The project was supported by grants from the John Templeton Foundation, the Campaign for Forgiveness Research, TP Industrials Inc., and the Religious Research Association. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
--- Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Religiousness associated with less depression, says BYU/U. of Miami study There was also a study at Madeson which showed that budists (an others who meditated a lot) were more happy. I can't find it, but maybe someone else can. = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Ronnn! Religion is a crutch. Surprise!!! Crutch? I believe the phrase you were looking for is, useful tool. Reggie Bautista _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
On Sat, Jun 28, 2003 at 01:38:25PM -0500, Reggie Bautista wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Ronnn! Religion is a crutch. Surprise!!! Crutch? I believe the phrase you were looking for is, useful tool. A crutch is only a useful tool if part(s) of your body is disabled. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
On Saturday, June 28, 2003, at 08:05 pm, Erik Reuter wrote: On Sat, Jun 28, 2003 at 01:38:25PM -0500, Reggie Bautista wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Ronnn! Religion is a crutch. Surprise!!! Crutch? I believe the phrase you were looking for is, useful tool. A crutch is only a useful tool if part(s) of your body is disabled. Or you can use it to gull the gullible if you are a con man :) -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
SCOUTED: Religiousness associated with less depression
http://byunews.byu.edu/releases/release.aspx?y=archive03m=Junf=religdepress Contact: Grant Madsen (801) 422-9206 Religiousness associated with less depression, says BYU/U. of Miami study PROVO, Utah (June 17, 2003)-A new study by Brigham Young University researchers reveals that greater religiousness is associated with fewer symptoms of depression, with religiousness defined broadly as any attitude, belief or behavior involving spiritual or religious content. The findings suggest that religiousness may provide certain types of religious people with a buffer against depression, says Timothy Smith, a BYU associate professor of counseling psychology and lead researcher on the study. Joining Smith are Michael E. McCullough, an associate professor of psychology at the University of Miami, and Justin Pole, a BYU graduate student. Published in the latest issue of the American Psychology Association's Psychological Bulletin, the research is an analysis of 147 previous studies that examined religiousness and depression. The results were similar across gender, age or ethnicity and apply regardless of religious denomination. Religiousness was defined broadly as any attitude, belief, motivation, pursuit or behavior involving spiritual or religious content or processes. Ken Pargament, a professor of psychology at Bowling Green State University and author of The Psychology of Religion and Coping: Theory, Research, Practice, says the study adds to the growing understanding of the mental health benefits of religion. This is a sophisticated, up-to-date, balanced approach to the study of religion and one critical dimension of mental health, says Pargament. Furthermore, it moves the field forward by identifying specific forms of religion that are tied to both increases and decreases to the risk of depression. These findings underscore what is common sense to most people -- religion contributes to health and well being. Now we are beginning to learn how and why. Other findings revolved around the distinction between what the researchers called intrinsically and extrinsically motivated religiousness. Intrinsic motivation means practicing religion for religion's sake -- praying, meditating and serving because of a sincere belief that doing so is correct. Extrinsically motivated people practice religion for social reasons -- they see church as a chance to build non-faith-based social networks or think, This is what religion can do for me. The study found that those who practice religion based on extrinsic motivations or who engage in negative religious coping, like blaming God for difficulties, are associated with higher levels of symptoms of depression. For those undergoing stressful life events, the researchers found that the buffer against depression is even stronger. One would think, 'The greater the stress, the greater the depression,' says Smith. But that's not necessarily the case for the intrinsically motivated religious person. Possible explanations for this include the idea that stress may prompt people to turn to religion, to become stronger in their faith in the face of trials. They are turning to God, pleading for help, seeking counsel from scriptures or pastors. Some of the reasons that those who are religious for intrinsic reasons may enjoy a buffer against depressive symptoms and stress include the traditional use of less alcohol and drugs, belief in spiritual intervention and support and belief in an afterlife. Take the example of death. Some religions teach doctrines about an afterlife that may provide a coping mechanism that relieves stress, says Smith. If people truly believe in those teachings and hold to them during times of stress, they can get through the ordeal with less trauma than the non-religious or externally motivated religious person. Additionally, religion tends to teach principles of altruism, which research has shown to be a buffer against depression, says Smith. Self-focus, on the other hand, has been shown to be a factor that tends to increase feelings of depression. The project was supported by grants from the John Templeton Foundation, the Campaign for Forgiveness Research, TP Industrials Inc., and the Religious Research Association. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
