Re: Spoilers?
On 16/08/2011, at 6:37 PM, Martin Lewis wrote: On 8/16/11, Doug Pensinger brig...@zo.com wrote: http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=spoiling-the-ending-makes-for-a-bet-11-08-14WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20110815#comments What do you think? Should we forgo the spoiler alerts? I'm delighted to see science strike another blow against idiots. Martin I'm not sure how science strikes another blow against idiots in this case - some people really don't like having the ending spoiled, and spoiler alerts just give people a choice whether or not to find out. Personally, I hate knowing what happens the first time I see a film. Sure it might be more satisfying the second time, but given the choice I'd rather not know. Charlie GCU River Song ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Spoilers?
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 3:46 AM, Charlie Bell char...@culturelist.org wrote: On 16/08/2011, at 6:37 PM, Martin Lewis wrote: On 8/16/11, Doug Pensinger brig...@zo.com wrote: http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=spoiling-the-ending-makes-for-a-bet-11-08-14WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20110815#comments What do you think? Should we forgo the spoiler alerts? I'm delighted to see science strike another blow against idiots. I'm not sure how science strikes another blow against idiots in this case - some people really don't like having the ending spoiled, and spoiler alerts just give people a choice whether or not to find out. Personally, I hate knowing what happens the first time I see a film. Sure it might be more satisfying the second time, but given the choice I'd rather not know. I gotta agree. I enjoyed watching a movie like The Sixth Sense a second time and watching for the subtle clues put in throughout the story. But I wouldn't want to have missed the mind-f#$k of that first great reveal for anything. - jmh ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Spoilers?
On 8/16/11, Doug Pensinger brig...@zo.com wrote: http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=spoiling-the-ending-makes-for-a-bet-11-08-14WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20110815#comments What do you think? Should we forgo the spoiler alerts? I'm delighted to see science strike another blow against idiots. Martin ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Spoilers?
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=spoiling-the-ending-makes-for-a-bet-11-08-14WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20110815#comments What do you think? Should we forgo the spoiler alerts? Doug ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Hitler gets Watchmen spoilers
This scene has been edited several times over with different subtitles, I think it might be the latest viral internet meme. So far I've seen versions where his X-Box was account deactivated (he had been using a modd'ed X-box) and one where his resume was rejected because of a typo. -- Matt - Original Message From: David Hobby hob...@newpaltz.edu To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2009 6:12:00 PM Subject: Re: Hitler gets Watchmen spoilers Rceeberger wrote: Yup.SPOILERS: http://www.boingboing.net/2009/03/04/hitler-finds-out-abo.html But it is sooo damn funny! Yeah, I was listening to the German, which didn't match the subtitles that well. Maybe next time I'll just read the subtitles... ---David Wie sagt mann Watchmen auf Deutsch? ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Hitler gets Watchmen spoilers
Yup.SPOILERS: http://www.boingboing.net/2009/03/04/hitler-finds-out-abo.html But it is sooo damn funny! xponent Delicious Subtitles Maru rob ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Hitler gets Watchmen spoilers
Rceeberger wrote: Yup.SPOILERS: http://www.boingboing.net/2009/03/04/hitler-finds-out-abo.html But it is sooo damn funny! Yeah, I was listening to the German, which didn't match the subtitles that well. Maybe next time I'll just read the subtitles... ---David Wie sagt mann Watchmen auf Deutsch? ___ http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Rainbow's End (vague spoilers)
I just finished Vinge's Rainbow's End. I found it interesting, but I enjoy his space operas a good deal more. I'm wondering how realistic y'all think Vinge's near future is. Will we all be sporting wearables in another decade or so? How about the virtuality of just about everything? I kind of like the idea of being able to check my home out wherever I am; I've got no problem with the Transparent Society. Mild Spoilers He didn't really wrap things up too tightly in the end, did he? Who is the Rabbit? What happened to Alfredo et al? I like that Robert Gu finds out about his wife being alive in the end, but I'm not sure I wouldn't have liked a few more details in the end about the bad guys. Is he setting up a sequel? I read the book a little bit at a time over a long period. I don't know exactly why, but that's the way I've been reading books lately with the exception of the last Potter book. I think I'd prefer to read a substantial book over a period of about two weeks. What else is good reading these days? Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Flash Gordon question - Possible Spoilers
Gary Nunn wrote: Possible Spoilers S P O I L E R S P A C E Anyone watching Flash Gordon? I missed this somewhere, but why does Baylin choose to stay on Earth as opposed to going back to Mongo? It's odd, but I remember that episode but I don't remember it being explained very well... It was largely a I was only a hired killer, but I hated who I was and where I was in life and you're kind of cute, Flash thing to me, particularly because Ming sent her ex-husband after her to kill her when she failed at her task on Earth. It seems the normal OCD sci-fi watchers aren't into the show because I'm not turning up much more of a synopsis than my own poor recollection on the usual OCD sources... -- --Max Battcher-- http://www.worldmaker.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Flash Gordon question - Possible Spoilers
Possible Spoilers S P O I L E R S P A C E Anyone watching Flash Gordon? I missed this somewhere, but why does Baylin choose to stay on Earth as opposed to going back to Mongo? Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
Julia Thompson wrote: And a mom I know has a daughter reading it, albeit slowly, and the mom wanted to know who lived and who died, so I let her know. I was all set to e-mail someone here who had already finished it, but she said she could wait for me to finish. And given what I know now, it's just as well I was the one to do so. (The mom is now all set to pick up Book 1 and start reading.) I was wondering about this. How old is the daughter? The Sunday papers here showed the Saturday shopping crowds (it was 9am Sat morning here for the release) and there were LOTS of little children proudly holding up their new books, and I couldn't help wondering if their parents thought that these were still kids books like the first one. Deathly Hallows is a *dark* book, and could be disturbing for a lot of littlies. I loved it, but the bit where Harry asks his companions Does it hurt? had me quite emotional (I trust that's not a spoiler). I don't know that I could recommend it to a parent for a child, which I have for all the previous books. Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
On 7/21/07, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just finished it. I'm in San Diego, so I lost three hours due to the time change, but just finished it. It's amazing, wonderful, deeply moving, and not just everything I hoped for, but far more. Happy reading to all of you still working on it!!! Thanks! I'm about two thirds of the way through, and enjoying the heck out of it. Speaking of no spoilers, Friday evening I went with some friends to see the fifth Harry Potter movie, and then we drove to our local Wal-Mart to pick up the seventh book. It was about 1 AM, and there was no waiting, a free poster, free cookies and cupcakes, bookmarks, trivia cards, etc., and several pallets loaded up with the new book. On the way back home, we drove past a Borders and saw several dozen people camped out, waiting for the store to open at 7 AM. We thought about stopping to tell them they didn't have to wait, but then decided not to spoil their fun. But I bet at least a few of them felt silly when they found out (if they found out). -- Mauro Diotallevi Hey, Harry, you haven't done anything useful for a while -- you be the god of jello now. -- Patricia Wrede, 8/16/2006 on rasfc -- Not a Harry Potter reference, by the way. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Mauro Diotallevi wrote: On 7/21/07, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just finished it. I'm in San Diego, so I lost three hours due to the time change, but just finished it. It's amazing, wonderful, deeply moving, and not just everything I hoped for, but far more. Happy reading to all of you still working on it!!! Thanks! I'm about two thirds of the way through, and enjoying the heck out of it. Speaking of no spoilers, Friday evening I went with some friends to see the fifth Harry Potter movie, and then we drove to our local Wal-Mart to pick up the seventh book. It was about 1 AM, and there was no waiting, a free poster, free cookies and cupcakes, bookmarks, trivia cards, etc., and several pallets loaded up with the new book. On the way back home, we drove past a Borders and saw several dozen people camped out, waiting for the store to open at 7 AM. We thought about stopping to tell them they didn't have to wait, but then decided not to spoil their fun. But I bet at least a few of them felt silly when they found out (if they found out). Book People in Austin was selling vouchers for the book back in March (which is when I paid for our 2 copies). I could have gone to a closer bookstore, or Wal-Mart, or heck, probably HEB, even, but I wanted to go to Book People. (And with the excuse of wanting to find parking THERE, rather than across the street, I got there around 9 and spent some time browsing in the bookstore -- bought 6 more books, as well.) Finished reading yesterday, a few minutes before Dan did. And a mom I know has a daughter reading it, albeit slowly, and the mom wanted to know who lived and who died, so I let her know. I was all set to e-mail someone here who had already finished it, but she said she could wait for me to finish. And given what I know now, it's just as well I was the one to do so. (The mom is now all set to pick up Book 1 and start reading.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
At 11:38 AM Monday 7/23/2007, Julia Thompson wrote: On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Mauro Diotallevi wrote: On 7/21/07, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just finished it. I'm in San Diego, so I lost three hours due to the time change, but just finished it. It's amazing, wonderful, deeply moving, and not just everything I hoped for, but far more. Happy reading to all of you still working on it!!! Thanks! I'm about two thirds of the way through, and enjoying the heck out of it. Speaking of no spoilers, Friday evening I went with some friends to see the fifth Harry Potter movie, and then we drove to our local Wal-Mart to pick up the seventh book. It was about 1 AM, and there was no waiting, a free poster, free cookies and cupcakes, bookmarks, trivia cards, etc., and several pallets loaded up with the new book. On the way back home, we drove past a Borders and saw several dozen people camped out, waiting for the store to open at 7 AM. We thought about stopping to tell them they didn't have to wait, but then decided not to spoil their fun. But I bet at least a few of them felt silly when they found out (if they found out). Book People in Austin was selling vouchers for the book back in March (which is when I paid for our 2 copies). I could have gone to a closer bookstore, or Wal-Mart, or heck, probably HEB, even, but I wanted to go to Book People. (And with the excuse of wanting to find parking THERE, rather than across the street, I got there around 9 and spent some time browsing in the bookstore -- bought 6 more books, as well.) Meaning that you fell right for their marketing strategy . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
On 7/23/07, Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Mauro Diotallevi wrote: On 7/21/07, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just finished it. I'm in San Diego, so I lost three hours due to the time change, but just finished it. It's amazing, wonderful, deeply moving, and not just everything I hoped for, but far more. Happy reading to all of you still working on it!!! Thanks! I'm about two thirds of the way through, and enjoying the heck out of it. Speaking of no spoilers, Friday evening I went with some friends to see the fifth Harry Potter movie, and then we drove to our local Wal-Mart to pick up the seventh book. It was about 1 AM, and there was no waiting, a free poster, free cookies and cupcakes, bookmarks, trivia cards, etc., and several pallets loaded up with the new book. On the way back home, we drove past a Borders and saw several dozen people camped out, waiting for the store to open at 7 AM. We thought about stopping to tell them they didn't have to wait, but then decided not to spoil their fun. But I bet at least a few of them felt silly when they found out (if they found out). Book People in Austin was selling vouchers for the book back in March (which is when I paid for our 2 copies). I could have gone to a closer bookstore, or Wal-Mart, or heck, probably HEB, even, but I wanted to go to Book People. (And with the excuse of wanting to find parking THERE, rather than across the street, I got there around 9 and spent some time browsing in the bookstore -- bought 6 more books, as well.) Six more books would have been out of my budget. On the other hand, Wal-Mart had free cookies and cupcakes, a trivia quiz, bookmarks, a small-ish free poster that included partial pictures of the covers of the previous six HP novels, wristbands with each of the house names... I know I'm missing something. Oh, and the actual book cost me three bucks less than Borders was charging. :-) I checked out the website for Book People. Wow. It looks like you've got yourself a great local independent bookstore. I wish I still had a good local bookstore around here. To help support a good local bookstore, I'd have ponied up the extra three dollars There aren't a whole lot of independent booksellers left around here, and there are a couple that I won't go to just on principle -- long story. -- Mauro Diotallevi Hey, Harry, you haven't done anything useful for a while -- you be the god of jello now. -- Patricia Wrede, 8/16/2006 on rasfc -- Not a Harry Potter reference. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 11:38 AM Subject: Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Mauro Diotallevi wrote: On 7/21/07, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just finished it. I'm in San Diego, so I lost three hours due to the time change, but just finished it. It's amazing, wonderful, deeply moving, and not just everything I hoped for, but far more. Happy reading to all of you still working on it!!! Thanks! I'm about two thirds of the way through, and enjoying the heck out of it. Speaking of no spoilers, Friday evening I went with some friends to see the fifth Harry Potter movie, and then we drove to our local Wal-Mart to pick up the seventh book. It was about 1 AM, and there was no waiting, a free poster, free cookies and cupcakes, bookmarks, trivia cards, etc., and several pallets loaded up with the new book. On the way back home, we drove past a Borders and saw several dozen people camped out, waiting for the store to open at 7 AM. We thought about stopping to tell them they didn't have to wait, but then decided not to spoil their fun. But I bet at least a few of them felt silly when they found out (if they found out). Book People in Austin was selling vouchers for the book back in March (which is when I paid for our 2 copies). I could have gone to a closer bookstore, or Wal-Mart, or heck, probably HEB, even, but I wanted to go to Book People. (And with the excuse of wanting to find parking THERE, rather than across the street, I got there around 9 and spent some time browsing in the bookstore -- bought 6 more books, as well.) Finished reading yesterday, a few minutes before Dan did. I went Saturday morning around 10ish and picked up a copy and finished at 1:30 AM Sunday. Then got up at 9AM to go see the new Potter movie. xponent All Out Of My System Now Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
- Original Message - From: Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 11:13 PM Subject: Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers On 7/21/07, Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gautam Mukunda wrote: It's amazing, wonderful, deeply moving, and not just everything I hoped for, but far more. Yes, it was an excellenet capstone to the series. There were a couple of parts that were underwhelming, such as the epilogue, but for the most part it was a great read. I just finished it, myself, and I have to say it was a great and very satisfying ending to the series. Ms Rowling seems to have taken great care to answer all the questions and leave no loose threads (at least none that occur to me yet). I also liked the epilogue (I also liked the Scouring of the Shire in the LoTR). While I enjoyed book 6, it had seemed too short and I had feared the same for book 7. I'm very glad to be able say that wasn't the case at all. I'm fairly well in agreement with Bryon here. But man How are they ever going to pack all that into a single movie? How are they going to get in all those effects without breaking the budget? xponent Potter, Harry Potter Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
On 7/21/07, Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gautam Mukunda wrote: It's amazing, wonderful, deeply moving, and not just everything I hoped for, but far more. Yes, it was an excellenet capstone to the series. There were a couple of parts that were underwhelming, such as the epilogue, but for the most part it was a great read. I just finished it, myself, and I have to say it was a great and very satisfying ending to the series. Ms Rowling seems to have taken great care to answer all the questions and leave no loose threads (at least none that occur to me yet). I also liked the epilogue (I also liked the Scouring of the Shire in the LoTR). While I enjoyed book 6, it had seemed too short and I had feared the same for book 7. I'm very glad to be able say that wasn't the case at all. -Bryon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
I just finished it. I'm in San Diego, so I lost three hours due to the time change, but just finished it. It's amazing, wonderful, deeply moving, and not just everything I hoped for, but far more. Happy reading to all of you still working on it!!! Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.coml Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mailp=summer+activities+for+kidscs=bz ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
On 22/07/2007, at 5:38 AM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: I just finished it. I'm in San Diego, so I lost three hours due to the time change, but just finished it. It's amazing, wonderful, deeply moving, and not just everything I hoped for, but far more. Happy reading to all of you still working on it!!! Haven't even bothered starting it yet as the queues in Melbourne were stupid and long, and Claire and I are moving house this weekend... I'll pick it up during the week. Lack of spoilers very much appreciated... Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007, Gautam Mukunda wrote: I just finished it. I'm in San Diego, so I lost three hours due to the time change, but just finished it. It's amazing, wonderful, deeply moving, and not just everything I hoped for, but far more. Happy reading to all of you still working on it!!! Good for you. I didn't get my copy until after 1AM and had to be up at 8 this morning, and have been somewhat groggy all day. I'm going to read for a couple of hours after the kids have gone to bed, anyway. :) (I got to hang out in the Book People parking lot with an acquaintance who is moving towards being a friend, which is nice. Nothing like geeks-in-a-parking-lot bonding) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
On 7/21/07, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just finished it. I'm in San Diego, so I lost three hours due to the time change, but just finished it. It's amazing, wonderful, deeply moving, and not just everything I hoped for, but far more. Happy reading to all of you still working on it!!! Gautam Mukunda YAR MATEY, SPOILERS MAY BE BELOW I'm in agreement. It was action-packed, brought in all sorts of details I had hoped to see again like Ollivanders and Gregorovitch, did a decent job of persuading us how both evil and how pathetic Voldemort and his group is (effectively brought home when Harry and Dumbledore are talking on the King's Cross station and the little thing - which I take as representing the state of Voldemort's soul - keeps interrupting. It's quite nasty and sad, and for some reason during that conversation I kept on thinking about Fullmetal Alchemist and the sadness of the homunculi), and finally wound up in a reasonably epic and moving climax. Most importantly, the ending was satisfactory and didn't feel at all cheap or like a copout. I'm not 100% pleased, though. The epilogue just felt kind of silly to me; I'm still not convinced that a Ron/Hermione pairing isn't ridiculous and just forced; I feel a little gyped that Harry has a Deathly Hallow all 7 books but the first time we're given any inkling that his cloak is particularly special is basically when the senior Lovegood dismisses all other invisibility cloaks as being pathetic. (And besides, if the Deathly Hallow cloak really is so perfect at hiding, how did Dumbledore see Harry sneaking in to see the Mirror of Erised? That little incident convinced me that the cloak was useful but nothing more unusually special than other things people had like Hermione's time-travel device. I feel a little betrayed at that.) Other things didn't quite ring true either - why would Voldemort be convinced the last Horcrux would be safe inside the Room of Requirement's room for hiding things when it's so obviously full of other people's stuff, implying that there's a quite regular traffic in and out of it? Further, if knowledge of the Deathly Hallows is so widespread that a kook like the senior Lovegood, Dumbeldore, Grindelwald, and at least 2 wandmakers know about it, then how could Voldemort (the first or second greatest wizard of all time, mind you, who is absolutely obsessed with anything that influences death or could offer immortality) *not* know about it and be so foolish as to make a Hallow a Horcrux and leave it lying around? But I guess you could argue that getting the big stuff right outweighs all such small stuff. -- gwern mania 701 CTP CATO Phon-e Chicago Posse NSDM ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Deathly Hallows - no spoilers
Gautam Mukunda wrote: It's amazing, wonderful, deeply moving, and not just everything I hoped for, but far more. Yes, it was an excellenet capstone to the series. There were a couple of parts that were underwhelming, such as the epilogue, but for the most part it was a great read. I got to finish it today during my brother-in-law's birthday gathering. Which certainly beat actually having to *talk* to those people. :-p Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Silver Surfer spoilers
I've seen some people on this list mention being fans of J. Michael Straczynski, the creator/writer of Babylon 5, Jeremiah, Spider-Man, etc. He has written and turned in a script for a Silver Surfer spin-off movie, looking at a late 2008 release. (sic) Mauro Diotallevi I saw the FF movie last Friday, and heck if I didn't comment we'll see a Silver Surfer spin-off... I thought the movie was fun. I never read the FF comics, so how relevant to the source is immaterial to me. Also, if you go to see the movie expecting some sort of existential revelation of the human condition... I think if they had portrayed Galactus true to the comic, it would have bombed and failed. How cool would a giant purple guy be on the big screen??? I think the portrayal presented in the movie was fine and reasonable for a movie. You have to understand, this movie was not done for hard-core FF fans, just as ANY historical movie is not meant for historians (ESPECIALLY 300... (sic) Damon I'm far from what you would call a hard-core FF fan, but I do know the story and can see that they have set themselves up for either major logical inconsistencies or a film that will make Ang Lee's The Hulk look like art. (Actually I liked The Hulk too) By removing any evidence of Galactus' personality and intelligence, they completely removed the reasons why The Surfer stays on Earth. If you had the freedom to roam the universe at will would you stay? Would you not hasten to return to your beloved Shalla-bal? The problem I see is that they changed not just the events of the story, they changed almost everything that made the Silver Surfer who he was. Sure, Zenn-la and Shalla-bal are mentioned in passing, but Norrin Rad's heroism is missing and more importantly so is his angst (not to mention the Power Cosmic). The Surfer is a conflicted and complex being, but the movie had almost zero character development. I'm not telling you that you should not have enjoyed the movie, I certainly did. But I am very disappointed at the paper thin characterization and the shoehorning of the Surfer into the tired mold of the action hero. For me, it bodes ill for the coming sequel (and that is rumored to be an almost sure thing). xponent Watered Down Maru rob i am also not a hardcore FF fan, (except for issues #48-50). they were okay when they appeared in the original SS series (with the surfer exiled to earth). IMHO, the original series are the most socially conscious and metaphysical comic marvel has published; issue #5 should go down in history. (back in '68 i was supposed to have a letter published in issue #18) i really liked the surfer when he was in the defenders, too; what a gang of superheroes that was! i have been eagerly waiting for a silver surfer movie ever since terminator two. i was a little disappointed with the PG release, nevertheless, it was still better than the first FF movie. I would have liked to see interaction between galactus and his herald, and flashbacks to zenn la with shalla bal (nice puns, btw). maybe in the sequel... frankie raye did not hook up with the human torch until much later. she turned into the fiery nova in FF #164 after she left johnny. she hooked up briefly with the sylph of the spaceways when she took over his role as the herald of galactus! the scene with the two of them getting it on was hot, no pun intended. for more on frqankie: http://www.marvel.com/universe/Nova_(Frankie_Raye) ___ You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes (with spoilers)
- Original Message - From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 7:39 PM Subject: Re: Heroes (with spoilers) *** Heroes - with spoilers *** Robert Seeberger wrote: I think I missed these episodes, unless they are in (my) future. Last week's episodes were the 12 and 13 (and on Saturday there was a mini-Takei marathon, with him in Psych and Heroes). OK...I'm going to be more careful about what I give away from here out, but Nathans escape was at the beginning of episode 5 Hiros. That one was the best of the early episodes. Ah, ok, when he flew from the thugs just after doing Jessica and met Hiro at the desert? I didn't remember the Haitian was there. It was the Haitian and HRG. Nathan had escaped them after they kidnapped him. That was the first *WOW* moment of the series. Ok, you think Orley could ambush the Heroes and kill them, one by one? Except for one detail: the drugged foreteller would _paint_ him doing it. If you have seen 12 episodes then you can understand the limits of prescience. Yes. And even prescience can be cheated. I loved the Ep 12 scene, just after Hiro stole the sword in the museum, when he posed near the T-Rex statue, just to mimic the picture - preventing that he would have to face a real T-Rex! Oh yesin the weeks prior to that ep there were fans arguing about how it would play out. Some expected timetravel to the Jurrasic and others recognized that there was a museum in the background of teaser pics. Those kinds of moronic discussions and the shippers are why I quit going to heroes forums. Too much dumb stuff being discussed. Can ones mind encompass the entireity of the future? Is a foretelling a warning or an inevitability? These are good questions to ponder during future episodes. I have seen the future of your television!G Yes... In a superhero world, intelligent people are _always_ the evil villains. That is usually true I'll grant you. On Heroes.it is not so true. At least not in the most simplistic terms. I think that is part of the charm of the show. And I like the fact that some of the characters are ambiguous, like the cheerleader adoptive father. He seems Evil, but maybe he is not. Same for Niki, Matt, Nathan, DL, Micah, and Peter. Only Claire and Hiro seem to be even close to pure of heart, and even Claire knows when to smack the shit-eating-grin off that smart-mouthed tw*t who used to be her BFF.G (my...wasn't that a satisfying moment)G xponent Tw*t Is Nicer Than C*nt I think Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes (with spoilers)
At 05:04 PM Tuesday 6/5/2007, Robert Seeberger wrote: Only Claire and Hiro seem to be even close to pure of heart, and even Claire knows when to smack the shit-eating-grin off that smart-mouthed tw[i]t who used to be her BFF.G (my...wasn't that a satisfying moment)G xponent Tw[i]t Is Nicer Than C*nt I think Maru rob It certainly is. -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes (with spoilers)
*** Heroes - with spoilers *** Robert Seeberger wrote: And I like the fact that some of the characters are ambiguous, like the cheerleader adoptive father. He seems Evil, but maybe he is not. Same for Niki, Matt, Nathan, DL, Micah, and Peter. Only Claire and Hiro seem to be even close to pure of heart, and even Claire knows when to smack the shit-eating-grin off that smart-mouthed tw*t who used to be her BFF.G (my...wasn't that a satisfying moment)G Niki is also pure good, but Jessica is pure Evil - she (who behaves as Niki's sister) doesn't even bother if her actions may harm Micah. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes (with spoilers)
- Original Message - From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 6:04 PM Subject: Re: Heroes (with spoilers) *** Heroes - with spoilers *** Robert Seeberger wrote: And I like the fact that some of the characters are ambiguous, like the cheerleader adoptive father. He seems Evil, but maybe he is not. Same for Niki, Matt, Nathan, DL, Micah, and Peter. Only Claire and Hiro seem to be even close to pure of heart, and even Claire knows when to smack the shit-eating-grin off that smart-mouthed tw*t who used to be her BFF.G (my...wasn't that a satisfying moment)G Niki is also pure good, but Jessica is pure Evil - she (who behaves as Niki's sister) doesn't even bother if her actions may harm Micah. Niki was a get nakey webcam stripper who danced to evil rock'n'roll music for strangers for money. She was good but I don't know about pure.G xponent Mustang Salley Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Heroes (with spoilers) [was: Dick Cheney's least favorite TV show?]
*** Heroes - with spoilers *** Robert Seeberger wrote: More detail. I pretty much knew all these spoilers before I saw the episodes and/or figured the course of things out beforehand. It was a surprise to see George Takei as Hiro's father... Even though it seems he's a minor character. I believe he or his character is coming back next season. Perhaps not so minor in the overall mythos. Will there be a next season? I thought the 1st was all that was there to watch. And reading things in the Internet is a _very_ bad idea if you want to watch a show. I was looking for data on episodes I had missed, and I learned that the cheerleader was the daughter of the flying man - information that comes from Ep 13! Spoilers don't bother me too much. I'm usually thinking about how Hiro's power works and the implications. When I watch an episode where I know some of what is to come, I am looking for clues to what will come beyond what I am seeing now. Kring and co have given us a very fun game in this. Kring? Now when Nathan was revealed to be Claires bio-father I was pissed. It seemed to me to be a pointless, soap-operaish plot point. It would be a cliché if _Sylar_ was Claire's bio-father :-) But there was some redemption in later drama that stemmed from the revelation that *did* expand and advance the story. I just dislike the idea that everyone is related to everyone else in some kind of shipper fantasy. Maybe this could be a logical explanation for the superpowers. All of them are children or grand-children of Hiro, who travelled back in time and fathered the first generation of supermen. Hiro would be his own grand-father, like Futurama's Fry. Of course my two favourite characters are Hiro Nakamura and the cheerleader. Same here. I think the best thing about the show is the expansive cast. East Asians, South Asians, Carribeansthe show is more like the world than any other fiction on American television. Next year they will have Hispanics!G I like the japanese speaking Japanese, instead of japanese speaking English with a japanese accent when they are supposed to be speaking Japanese. In this we should praise Mel Gibson: 5 years ago, nobody would dare to put any other language, but after the success of The Passion of the Christ, we have to see people speaking their own languages. Tom Orley's powers are nowhere near the demigods of Heroes. Bah! Most of the powers are not all that special and would not allow any individual to dominate large numbers of people. Hiro: can go back in time and kill your grandfather. He is by far the most powerful of all Cheerleader: no big deal, even to defend herself her power is useless (Sylar would have killed her anyway) Nathan the flying man: no big deal, great for escaping Haitian: this is a *huge* power. He could dominate anyone, just by turning them into mindless drones The one with the persuasion power: another *huge* power. It was stupid to let herself be killed by Sylar Peter: alone, he is useless. But if he can recolled the other people's powers, he is invincible and so on. Half of them _could_ dominate a large number of people. While the Heroes are a bit flashy, the majority of them are not much different than Orley. Outside of Peter and Sylar, Orley could likey whoop most of them. No, he couldn't. He wouldn't even get close to most of them. Orley is definately smarter than any of them. I believe Orleys intelligence accounts for a great deal. Bah. In a world with superheroes, Orley would be the _villain_ :-P I would also note that HRG (Noah Bennet) has no powers but has been on top of the empowered individuals almost all the series. Yes, and it makes no sense that Sylar didn't kill him (ok, Sylar was mad, he only killed supermen, but then why he would kill Noah's wife?) Zane? I don't remember this name (BTW, I can hardly remeber the names of them all - better be Hiro-like and call them by the superpowers). Zane could make metals turn into a liquid form without using heat. This is a huge destructive power! Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes (with spoilers) [was: Dick Cheney's least favorite TV show?]
At 12:56 PM Monday 6/4/2007, Alberto Monteiro wrote: *** Heroes - with spoilers *** Which still beats a Hero sandwich with spoiled meat . . . Robert Seeberger wrote: More detail. I pretty much knew all these spoilers before I saw the episodes and/or figured the course of things out beforehand. It was a surprise to see George Takei as Hiro's father... Even though it seems he's a minor character. I believe he or his character is coming back next season. Perhaps not so minor in the overall mythos. Will there be a next season? I thought the 1st was all that was there to watch. Watch the last few minutes again and note the title on the screen at the beginning of the scene in the 1600s. Or just look at NBC's announced fall schedule. And reading things in the Internet is a _very_ bad idea if you want to watch a show. I was looking for data on episodes I had missed, and I learned that the cheerleader was the daughter of the flying man - information that comes from Ep 13! Spoilers don't bother me too much. I'm usually thinking about how Hiro's power works and the implications. When I watch an episode where I know some of what is to come, I am looking for clues to what will come beyond what I am seeing now. Kring and co have given us a very fun game in this. Kring? Now when Nathan was revealed to be Claires bio-father I was pissed. It seemed to me to be a pointless, soap-operaish plot point. It would be a cliché if _Sylar_ was Claire's bio-father :-) But there was some redemption in later drama that stemmed from the revelation that *did* expand and advance the story. I just dislike the idea that everyone is related to everyone else in some kind of shipper fantasy. Maybe this could be a logical explanation for the superpowers. All of them are children or grand-children of Hiro, who travelled back in time and fathered the first generation of supermen. Hiro would be his own grand-father, like Futurama's Fry. What do Lonzo and Oscar sound like translated into Japanese? Of course my two favourite characters are Hiro Nakamura and the cheerleader. Same here. I think the best thing about the show is the expansive cast. East Asians, South Asians, Carribeansthe show is more like the world than any other fiction on American television. Next year they will have Hispanics!G I like the japanese speaking Japanese, instead of japanese speaking English with a japanese accent when they are supposed to be speaking Japanese. In this we should praise Mel Gibson: 5 years ago, nobody would dare to put any other language, How did _Star Trek: The Motion Picture_ open in 1979? but after the success of The Passion of the Christ, we have to see people speaking their own languages. Tom Orley's powers are nowhere near the demigods of Heroes. Bah! Most of the powers are not all that special and would not allow any individual to dominate large numbers of people. Hiro: can go back in time and kill your grandfather. He is by far the most powerful of all Cheerleader: no big deal, even to defend herself her power is useless (Sylar would have killed her anyway) Nathan the flying man: no big deal, great for escaping Haitian: this is a *huge* power. He could dominate anyone, just by turning them into mindless drones The one with the persuasion power: another *huge* power. It was stupid to let herself be killed by Sylar Peter: alone, he is useless. But if he can recolled the other people's powers, he is invincible and so on. Half of them _could_ dominate a large number of people. While the Heroes are a bit flashy, the majority of them are not much different than Orley. Outside of Peter and Sylar, Orley could likey whoop most of them. No, he couldn't. He wouldn't even get close to most of them. Orley is definately smarter than any of them. I believe Orleys intelligence accounts for a great deal. Bah. In a world with superheroes, Orley would be the _villain_ :-P I would also note that HRG (Noah Bennet) has no powers but has been on top of the empowered individuals almost all the series. Yes, and it makes no sense that Sylar didn't kill him (ok, Sylar was mad, he only killed supermen, but then why he would kill Noah's wife?) Zane? I don't remember this name (BTW, I can hardly remeber the names of them all - better be Hiro-like and call them by the superpowers). Zane could make metals turn into a liquid form without using heat. This is a huge destructive power! Frex, put him at the WTC . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes (with spoilers) [was: Dick Cheney's least favorite TV show?]
- Original Message - From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 12:56 PM Subject: Heroes (with spoilers) [was: Dick Cheney's least favorite TV show?] *** Heroes - with spoilers *** Robert Seeberger wrote: More detail. I pretty much knew all these spoilers before I saw the episodes and/or figured the course of things out beforehand. It was a surprise to see George Takei as Hiro's father... Even though it seems he's a minor character. I believe he or his character is coming back next season. Perhaps not so minor in the overall mythos. Will there be a next season? I thought the 1st was all that was there to watch. 23 or 24 episodes next season with a companion series Heroes: Origins to play during the mid-season break. There is some talk that season 3 will play year-round, whatever that could mean. The show is immensely popular, it was developing a worldwide following just a few episodes into the first season via torrents. And reading things in the Internet is a _very_ bad idea if you want to watch a show. I was looking for data on episodes I had missed, and I learned that the cheerleader was the daughter of the flying man - information that comes from Ep 13! Spoilers don't bother me too much. I'm usually thinking about how Hiro's power works and the implications. When I watch an episode where I know some of what is to come, I am looking for clues to what will come beyond what I am seeing now. Kring and co have given us a very fun game in this. Kring? Tim Kring is the creator of the series. I think he was behind Crossing Jordan also. Now when Nathan was revealed to be Claires bio-father I was pissed. It seemed to me to be a pointless, soap-operaish plot point. It would be a cliché if _Sylar_ was Claire's bio-father :-) LOL! You'd get a good laugh at some of the fan theories. There was one French guy on 9th Wonders who claimed to speak 12 languages and to have worked on time travel with Carl Sagan. Uh Huh! But there was some redemption in later drama that stemmed from the revelation that *did* expand and advance the story. I just dislike the idea that everyone is related to everyone else in some kind of shipper fantasy. Maybe this could be a logical explanation for the superpowers. All of them are children or grand-children of Hiro, who travelled back in time and fathered the first generation of supermen. Hiro would be his own grand-father, like Futurama's Fry. I suspect it will be something a bit more grandiose, but would not be surprised to see Hiro involved. Of course my two favourite characters are Hiro Nakamura and the cheerleader. Same here. I think the best thing about the show is the expansive cast. East Asians, South Asians, Carribeansthe show is more like the world than any other fiction on American television. Next year they will have Hispanics!G I like the japanese speaking Japanese, instead of japanese speaking English with a japanese accent when they are supposed to be speaking Japanese. That did tend to increase the believeability of those situations. In this we should praise Mel Gibson: 5 years ago, nobody would dare to put any other language, but after the success of The Passion of the Christ, we have to see people speaking their own languages. Tom Orley's powers are nowhere near the demigods of Heroes. Bah! Most of the powers are not all that special and would not allow any individual to dominate large numbers of people. Hiro: can go back in time and kill your grandfather. He is by far the most powerful of all Well.almost. If Peter absorbs Hiro's power then he is more powerful, but as it stands I agree that Hiro's power is the most powerful shown so far. Cheerleader: no big deal, even to defend herself her power is useless (Sylar would have killed her anyway) Yuppers! Nathan the flying man: no big deal, great for escaping Buuuthe escaped the Haitian and Peter did the same using Nathans power. Haitian: this is a *huge* power. He could dominate anyone, just by turning them into mindless drones Even more, he can prevent people from using their power. The one with the persuasion power: another *huge* power. It was stupid to let herself be killed by Sylar Wellshe killed herself to keep Sylar from getting her power. Peter: alone, he is useless. But if he can recolled the other people's powers, he is invincible Sylar killed him twicenot quite invincible. and so on. Half of them _could_ dominate a large number of people. Temporarily maybe. Any of them (excepting Claire and Peter under most circumstances) can be killed conventionally and permanantly. A sniper, a bomb, poison gas, a pointy stick. They are only human regardless of special talents. Do we need a bodycount? While the Heroes are a bit flashy, the majority of them are not much different than Orley. Outside of Peter
Re: Heroes (with spoilers)
*** Heroes - with spoilers *** Robert Seeberger wrote: Now when Nathan was revealed to be Claires bio-father I was pissed. It seemed to me to be a pointless, soap-operaish plot point. It would be a cliché if _Sylar_ was Claire's bio-father :-) LOL! You'd get a good laugh at some of the fan theories. There was one French guy on 9th Wonders who claimed to speak 12 languages and to have worked on time travel with Carl Sagan. Uh Huh! 12 languages is no such big deal, but time travel with Sagan... How old is he? 12? He says he worked relative to his own time, or in Sagan's time? Maybe we will work, then get back in time just to discuss it with Sagan. Nathan the flying man: no big deal, great for escaping Buuuthe escaped the Haitian and Peter did the same using Nathans power. I think I missed these episodes, unless they are in (my) future. Last week's episodes were the 12 and 13 (and on Saturday there was a mini-Takei marathon, with him in Psych and Heroes). Haitian: this is a *huge* power. He could dominate anyone, just by turning them into mindless drones Even more, he can prevent people from using their power. I forgot that. The mind-reader and Sylar were quite useless near him. The one with the persuasion power: another *huge* power. It was stupid to let herself be killed by Sylar Wellshe killed herself to keep Sylar from getting her power. Ok... but it was a stupid way to die. Peter: alone, he is useless. But if he can recolled the other people's powers, he is invincible Sylar killed him twicenot quite invincible. But he wasn't yet able to use all the powers. and so on. Half of them _could_ dominate a large number of people. Temporarily maybe. Any of them (excepting Claire and Peter under most circumstances) can be killed conventionally and permanantly. A sniper, a bomb, poison gas, a pointy stick. They are only human regardless of special talents. Do we need a bodycount? No - but then they must be caught. While the Heroes are a bit flashy, the majority of them are not much different than Orley. Outside of Peter and Sylar, Orley could likey whoop most of them. No, he couldn't. He wouldn't even get close to most of them. See above. Ok, you think Orley could ambush the Heroes and kill them, one by one? Except for one detail: the drugged foreteller would _paint_ him doing it. Orley is definately smarter than any of them. I believe Orleys intelligence accounts for a great deal. Bah. In a world with superheroes, Orley would be the _villain_ :-P DubiousG In a superhero world, intelligent people are _always_ the evil villains. Zane could make metals turn into a liquid form without using heat. This is a huge destructive power! It could be in the right circumstances, but that has not occured as of yet. You can destroy a nuke, for example. Or a building. Or a gun. Or a cell phone :-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes (with spoilers)
- Original Message - From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Heroes (with spoilers) *** Heroes - with spoilers *** Robert Seeberger wrote: LOL! You'd get a good laugh at some of the fan theories. There was one French guy on 9th Wonders who claimed to speak 12 languages and to have worked on time travel with Carl Sagan. Uh Huh! 12 languages is no such big deal, but time travel with Sagan... How old is he? 12? He says he worked relative to his own time, or in Sagan's time? Maybe we will work, then get back in time just to discuss it with Sagan. I figured the guy was some type of troll myself. Nathan the flying man: no big deal, great for escaping Buuuthe escaped the Haitian and Peter did the same using Nathans power. I think I missed these episodes, unless they are in (my) future. Last week's episodes were the 12 and 13 (and on Saturday there was a mini-Takei marathon, with him in Psych and Heroes). OK...I'm going to be more careful about what I give away from here out, but Nathans escape was at the beginning of episode 5 Hiros. That one was the best of the early episodes. Haitian: this is a *huge* power. He could dominate anyone, just by turning them into mindless drones Even more, he can prevent people from using their power. I forgot that. The mind-reader and Sylar were quite useless near him. Quite handy for someone hunting Heroes, but then so was the guy he replaced.G The one with the persuasion power: another *huge* power. It was stupid to let herself be killed by Sylar Wellshe killed herself to keep Sylar from getting her power. Ok... but it was a stupid way to die. Sure. Eden should have never tried to face Sylar on her own. Very stupid! Peter: alone, he is useless. But if he can recolled the other people's powers, he is invincible Sylar killed him twicenot quite invincible. But he wasn't yet able to use all the powers. Predictablythings change. You learn to walk. You learn to ride a bike. You learn to drive. and so on. Half of them _could_ dominate a large number of people. Temporarily maybe. Any of them (excepting Claire and Peter under most circumstances) can be killed conventionally and permanantly. A sniper, a bomb, poison gas, a pointy stick. They are only human regardless of special talents. Do we need a bodycount? No - but then they must be caught. UmI'm going to leave this alone til you have seen the entire series. While the Heroes are a bit flashy, the majority of them are not much different than Orley. Outside of Peter and Sylar, Orley could likey whoop most of them. No, he couldn't. He wouldn't even get close to most of them. See above. Ok, you think Orley could ambush the Heroes and kill them, one by one? Except for one detail: the drugged foreteller would _paint_ him doing it. If you have seen 12 episodes then you can understand the limits of prescience. Can ones mind encompass the entireity of the future? Is a foretelling a warning or an inevitability? These are good questions to ponder during future episodes. I have seen the future of your television!G Orley is definately smarter than any of them. I believe Orleys intelligence accounts for a great deal. Bah. In a world with superheroes, Orley would be the _villain_ :-P DubiousG In a superhero world, intelligent people are _always_ the evil villains. That is usually true I'll grant you. On Heroes.it is not so true. At least not in the most simplistic terms. I think that is part of the charm of the show. Zane could make metals turn into a liquid form without using heat. This is a huge destructive power! It could be in the right circumstances, but that has not occured as of yet. You can destroy a nuke, for example. Or a building. Or a gun. Or a cell phone :-) We shouldn't be talking about this yet. Zane is a few eps in your future. Apologies! Be sure to watch the episodes Company Man and Parasite(17 and 18 respectively). Some of the best TV I've seen in years. But I have a few questions: Are you watching Heroes in Portugese? Dubbed? Subtitles? or is it in english? What kind of schedule is the show shown on? (Once a week or whatever?) And is the show very popular in Brazil? xponent Dattebayo Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes (with spoilers)
*** Heroes - with spoilers *** Robert Seeberger wrote: I think I missed these episodes, unless they are in (my) future. Last week's episodes were the 12 and 13 (and on Saturday there was a mini-Takei marathon, with him in Psych and Heroes). OK...I'm going to be more careful about what I give away from here out, but Nathans escape was at the beginning of episode 5 Hiros. That one was the best of the early episodes. Ah, ok, when he flew from the thugs just after doing Jessica and met Hiro at the desert? I didn't remember the Haitian was there. Ok, you think Orley could ambush the Heroes and kill them, one by one? Except for one detail: the drugged foreteller would _paint_ him doing it. If you have seen 12 episodes then you can understand the limits of prescience. Yes. And even prescience can be cheated. I loved the Ep 12 scene, just after Hiro stole the sword in the museum, when he posed near the T-Rex statue, just to mimic the picture - preventing that he would have to face a real T-Rex! Can ones mind encompass the entireity of the future? Is a foretelling a warning or an inevitability? These are good questions to ponder during future episodes. I have seen the future of your television!G Yes... In a superhero world, intelligent people are _always_ the evil villains. That is usually true I'll grant you. On Heroes.it is not so true. At least not in the most simplistic terms. I think that is part of the charm of the show. And I like the fact that some of the characters are ambiguous, like the cheerleader adoptive father. He seems Evil, but maybe he is not. But I have a few questions: Are you watching Heroes in Portugese? Yes. Dubbed? Subtitles? or is it in english? English and Japanese, with Portuguese subtitles. What kind of schedule is the show shown on? (Once a week or whatever?) Once a week (premiere Friday 21:00, repeats Saturday 20:00, Sunday somewhere in the afternoon and Friday 20:00), with periodic Saturday marathons, where they show a group of 6 episodes. And is the show very popular in Brazil? No, because it's still on cable TV, and cable is for a minority. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes Spoilers as of 11/5
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Robert G. Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WARNING***SPOILERS (And not necessarily all that accurate - rob) Claire's dad isn't the bad guy, here, though he was set up as such. Not saying he's nice, either, but he's not hellbent on destruction of the heroes, he really does love Claire, and he's not the reason New York becomes a crater in five weeks (if Hiro's vision comes to pass). Think Stryker from The X-Men here. He doesn't always do nice things, but he isn't doing it to hurt people, least of all Claire. It has occurred to me that he doesn't appear to be a nuclear bomber, but I don't buy (yet) that he's not a bad guy. Whatever his motivations are (which have been inscrutable at best so far), he's used some very questionable means, including: -kidnapping/abduction (definitely in the case of the police officer, and IIRC, he was somehow also involved in the abduction of Candidate Petrelli as well, right?) -assault (mental assault, but still assault) by way of his henchman (and it remains to be seen as to how/why he has control over the henchman) on both his abduction victim, and (possibly out of pure revenge) on the high school quarterback -deceit not just telling his daughter that her birth parents were unlocatable, but hiring two people to act as her birthparents I can see how things are being set up to make us think that the tag line of Save the Cheerleader, Save the World somehow implies saving her from her foster Dad, and I suspect that that is not quite right... but I'm not sure it changes the fact that her Dad is still very much an ends justifies the means kind of guy, and those guys are rarely held up as being the good guys. I also speculate that somehow Claire was genetically engineered, and her Dad is involved in it somehow but that's pure speculation We will see Future!Hiro as an intermittent recurring character, though his actual existence is in the distant future (whatever that means). I can't imagine that Hiro's appearance would have been a one-time event it was way too cool for that. One thing we also learned last week is that even though the show is periodically cutting between different characters, the various storylines are not necessarily occurring in parallel. There were several cuts between Nikki in the middle of the night in Las Vegas and Clair in dayling in Odessa. Of course, that may just be a writing flaw but if Alberto was watching this show from Brazil, I'm sure that he'd try and resolve it JDG ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes Spoilers as of 11/5
- Original Message - From: jdiebremse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 9:43 AM Subject: Re: Heroes Spoilers as of 11/5 --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Robert G. Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WARNING***SPOILERS (And not necessarily all that accurate - rob) Claire's dad isn't the bad guy, here, though he was set up as such. Not saying he's nice, either, but he's not hellbent on destruction of the heroes, he really does love Claire, and he's not the reason New York becomes a crater in five weeks (if Hiro's vision comes to pass). Think Stryker from The X-Men here. He doesn't always do nice things, but he isn't doing it to hurt people, least of all Claire. It has occurred to me that he doesn't appear to be a nuclear bomber, but I don't buy (yet) that he's not a bad guy. Whatever his motivations are (which have been inscrutable at best so far), he's used some very questionable means, including: -kidnapping/abduction (definitely in the case of the police officer, and IIRC, he was somehow also involved in the abduction of Candidate Petrelli as well, right?) Considering his methods, I believe they suggest that Mr Bennet works for the government in some dark ops capacity and has a good deal of pull. -assault (mental assault, but still assault) by way of his henchman (and it remains to be seen as to how/why he has control over the henchman) on both his abduction victim, I agree that this issue is a singular curiousity. and (possibly out of pure revenge) on the high school quarterback I don't think it is *simply* revenge. Remember Brody threatened to expose Claire: She isn't human!. Mindwiping Brody to such a deep extent not only protects Claire from exposure, it also protects Brody from his own established behaviors. The boy is certainly a serial rapist. Killing him would be an act of revenge, but a deep mindwipe could be considered a kindness and a way avoid having to kill him to protect Claire. Bennet seems to have some sort of covert operation going with at least 2 minions (The Hatian and Eden) and 2 associates (the fake parents). At the least Bennets actions can be seen as methods to protect the operation. -deceit not just telling his daughter that her birth parents were unlocatable, but hiring two people to act as her birthparents I believe this is a ruse to placate Claires desire to meet her birth parents, and divert her from searching on her own. Perhaps Bennet sees that as a potential problem that must be avoided. I can see how things are being set up to make us think that the tag line of Save the Cheerleader, Save the World somehow implies saving her from her foster Dad, and I suspect that that is not quite right... The common wisdom is that Claire's danger comes from Sylar, and not her foster father. Remember the painting that Peter Petrelli completed for Issac Mendez..a cheerleader with blood surrounding her head and a trenchcoated stranger standing over her. (Spoiler speculation is that the cheerleader dead in the painting is not Claire but the airhead who took credit for saving a cop in the train fire.) but I'm not sure it changes the fact that her Dad is still very much an ends justifies the means kind of guy, and those guys are rarely held up as being the good guys. Agreed, but Bennet still could end up as an anti-hero, possibly a foil with common cause with the heroes. I also speculate that somehow Claire was genetically engineered, and her Dad is involved in it somehow but that's pure speculation That is a common speculation, that they are all engineered and Professor Suresh the elder is wrong in his thesis. We will see Future!Hiro as an intermittent recurring character, though his actual existence is in the distant future (whatever that means). I can't imagine that Hiro's appearance would have been a one-time event it was way too cool for that. Super Ultra Maximally Cool! One thing we also learned last week is that even though the show is periodically cutting between different characters, the various storylines are not necessarily occurring in parallel. There were several cuts between Nikki in the middle of the night in Las Vegas and Clair in dayling in Odessa. I suspect the show is cut that way for dramatic effect, to heighten tension. Of course, that may just be a writing flaw but if Alberto was watching this show from Brazil, I'm sure that he'd try and resolve it I'm sure the attempt would be interesting if not illuminating!G xponent Niki/Jennifer Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Heroes Spoilers as of 11/5
WARNING***SPOILERS (And not necessarily all that accurate - rob) http://tvmakesyoustupid.wordpress.com/2006/10/31/heroes-mini-spoiler-palooza/ Zach, Claire's scruffy geekboy sidekick, is gay and will come out to her this season. This explains his No. believe me. response when she asked if he was flirting with her, and his choice of words when asking if Claire is going to Come out to her parents. It also explains why he's glommed onto her. How much more fabulous a best girlfriend could a high school gayboy in Odessa, TX ask for? Nora Zehetner's character, the anviliciously named Eden, has the power of suggestion. She speaks it, and the listener believes it is his or her idea. This makes a rewatch of her scenes with Mohinder very interesting, and explains Mr. Bennett's line of We both know you can do better than that in this last episode a lot more meaningful. She will continue to supply Claire's dad with information about Isaac's visions of Claire. Claire's dad isn't the bad guy, here, though he was set up as such. Not saying he's nice, either, but he's not hellbent on destruction of the heroes, he really does love Claire, and he's not the reason New York becomes a crater in five weeks (if Hiro's vision comes to pass). Think Stryker from The X-Men here. He doesn't always do nice things, but he isn't doing it to hurt people, least of all Claire. By the way, for those of you who love to hate him, Jack Coleman, the cheerily creepy actor who plays her dad, has been upped to series regular as of episode 1.11, per TVGuide.com. Zach is NOT going to stab Claire in the back as some people have speculated. In fact, he ends up in a heap of trouble because of her. The eclipse is not what triggered everyone's superpowers. Nor was Mohinder's dad necessarily right about it all being due to genetics. In the coming weeks, we'll start to see other theories emerge about what's triggering these abilities in people all over the world - theories that have little to nothing to do with evolution. So Dr. Suresh may have been right about the effect, but not necessarily the cause. Were they the victims of secret government experiments? Or tampering from the future a la The 4400? Or something else? Per an NBC interview, Greg Grunberg reveals that his character Matt Parkman failed the detective test three times because he has a secret about which he's ashamed: he has dyslexia. Niki killed DL's crew in self defense - it had not been her intention to kill them all and frame DL (who really needs a new name, since on the DL is inner-city slang for secretly gay) but after the job was done, they turned on her and tried to make off with her share. She was in the process of laundering the money, which is why she didn't use it to pay off any of her debts and was keeping it in the attic. Niki's id/ alter ego, Jessica, has super-strength. The question is - does Niki? Note my use of the present tense there - Niki is not dead (of course). However, who's in control of her body is up for grabs. We'll find out a lot more about Sylar and his connection to the Suresh family in Episode 10. Mohinder will be back after Papa Suresh's funeral (of course.) He finds the idea irresistable. And he may not be one of the normals - he starts having mysterious yet meaningful dreams. Nathan's wife is physically incapacitated from an accident for which Nathan feels responsible. We'll learn more about this in the future eps, and someone may see Nathan fly - a liability to his campaign that may need to be dealt with. It is a fact that Isaac does not need drugs to access his visions. He will discover this in Episode 1.08 and gain better control over his powers (and possibly finally kick the habit?) His paintings only show possible futures - not absolute ones. So what happens in his visions can be changed. By the way, we will not be seeing Isaac shoot up on screen any time soon - NBC execs have ixnayed that, and has shown concern about whether or not they're glorifying drug use. We will see Future!Hiro as an intermittent recurring character, though his actual existence is in the distant future (whatever that means). * xponent Weekend Preview Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23]
On Behalf Of jdiebremse --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Most of the things I'm reading call him Horned Rim Glasses Man or HRG for short (or sometimes HRM). I doubt it. The hotel lady didn't know what happened to FlyingGuy in the morning. Unless she was a very good actor, I suppose. - jmh CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23]
On Behalf Of Robert Seeberger Did you catch the long ponytail? Just how far in the future is he from? Considering how well he spoke English, he would have to be from pretty far in the future, I'd think. Actually, I don't think a adult native Japanese speaker would EVER be able to speak English that well without an accent but that's just being nitpicky and I'm willing to over look that. - jmh CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23]
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Most of the things I'm reading call him Horned Rim Glasses Man or HRG for short (or sometimes HRM). Does that mean that he's not the same person as Mr. Linderman? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23]
- Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 9:36 AM Subject: RE: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23] Considering how well he spoke English, he would have to be from pretty far in the future, I'd think. Actually, I don't think a adult native Japanese speaker would EVER be able to speak English that well without an accent but that's just being nitpicky and I'm willing to over look that. Looks to be appx. 18 to 24 months of hair growth. But *when* he quite getting it cut is key. I agree about the lack of accent. Seems to be a bit of a fluke. xponent Clues Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23]
- Original Message - From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:37 PM Subject: Re: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23] - Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 9:36 AM Subject: RE: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23] Considering how well he spoke English, he would have to be from pretty far in the future, I'd think. Actually, I don't think a adult native Japanese speaker would EVER be able to speak English that well without an accent but that's just being nitpicky and I'm willing to over look that. Looks to be appx. 18 to 24 months of hair growth. But *when* he quite getting it cut is key. I agree about the lack of accent. Seems to be a bit of a fluke. I noticed something else while rewatching mondays episode tonight. Hiro holds his left arm across his stomach with his fist clenched loosely during the entire scene, never moving it at all, as if it were broken or somehow injured. Perhaps a hint of events to come? xponent Details Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23]
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hiro is definately my favorite character of the series, followed by the Indian professors son. Last week I was arguing that the guy from the future might not be Hiro, but this week it is plain that he is indeed Hiro. The swords really threw me and his demeanor is vastly different than the Hiro of the first three episodes, leading me to argue this week that Future Hiro is not from the near/immediate future but from sometime a few years ahead. Future Hiro has a self-possession and gravitas that a geeky dreamer like Present Hiro couldn't possibly obtain in the few weeks before the disaster strikes. I think also that he could not be very adept with that sword after only a few weeks. He also got contacts! Also, he seems to be able to control his teleport/timetravel power in a way that he doesn't currently. I think that sort of sets up that this series will have additional stories to tell once/if they save New York sometime later this year. My boss is convinced that Mirror Chicks husband is the same guy who is Evil Glasses/ Cheerleaders Foster Dad s Mind Reaming Minion. I don't think so. Open Questions: Who is Skylar? What is his power? What is the nature of The Younger Brother's power? (I think he mimics the power of whoever he is with) I think this is pretty obvious, right?It seems very similar to the power of Rogue from X-men - only requring just proximity and not physical touch. Just who is Evil Glasses/Cheerleader's Foster Dad? Is Mirror Chick's ex guilty or innocent? What did MInd Reaming Minion do to Psychic Cop? It seems possible that he also enhanced the cop's power. Previously, the cop was only occasionally hearing voices. Now, he is hearing voices constantly, which he used to effect with his wife, and which caused him problems in the C-Store JDG ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23]
jdiebremse wrote: I think this is pretty obvious, right?It seems very similar to the power of Rogue from X-men - only requring just proximity and not physical touch. And without all that pesky making the other person pass out and possibly die thing. :-) It seems possible that he also enhanced the cop's power. Previously, the cop was only occasionally hearing voices. Now, he is hearing voices constantly, which he used to effect with his wife, and which caused him problems in the C-Store Evil Glasses Guy said something to the effect that PsyCop's power is advancing more quickly than he'd have expected. We haven't seen enough of the wipeout guy's power to know if he can be a booster as well as a damper. Jim Needs to get the characters' names straight Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23]
On Behalf Of Jim Sharkey Evil Glasses Guy said something to the effect that PsyCop's power is advancing more quickly than he'd have expected. We haven't seen enough of the wipeout guy's power to know if he can be a booster as well as a damper. Yeah, I think the Cop just got a mindwipe of the recent events. Not a total wipeout like was done to the quarterback-rapist. I'm not sure if HRG* is good or bad at this point. He certainly seems like a bad guy but he did delay in shooting the FlyingCandidate, so perhaps he wasn't so bad. I don't think he is Sylar. Doesn't quite fit. My theory is that Sylar has powers similar to Mimic-boy. But if he takes/absorbs/eats the brain of his victim, he gets to keep the power permanently. Of course, after the previous episode, I was convinced that FutureHiro was played by a different actor than SuperHiro and that Nikki's husband was the mindwipe guy. But after this episode, I see that I was incorrect on both of those. I think we are going to find out a lot more about Nikki's powers and past in the next episode. Based on the preview, it looks like she had some sort of trauma in her past that caused her to split into two Nikki's. I still think she's the one who killed and buried hubbie's gang members. I wonder where the $2 million went...? - jmh * Most of the things I'm reading call him Horned Rim Glasses Man or HRG for short (or sometimes HRM). CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23]
From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Sharkey Evil Glasses Guy said something to the effect that PsyCop's power is advancing more quickly than he'd have expected. We haven't seen enough of the wipeout guy's power to know if he can be a booster as well as a damper. ]Yeah, I think the Cop just got a mindwipe of the recent events. Not ]a total wipeout like was done to the quarterback-rapist. I'm not ]sure if HRG* is good or bad at this point. He certainly seems like ]a bad guy but he did delay in shooting the FlyingCandidate, so ]perhaps he wasn't so bad. I don't think he is Sylar. Doesn't quite ]fit. ]My theory is that Sylar has powers similar to Mimic-boy. But if he ]takes/absorbs/eats the brain of his victim, he gets to keep the ]power permanently. Another angle: It's Mimic-Boy gone evil once he realizes he can *keep* the powers? Meh. Not likely, but still...? ]Of course, after the previous episode, I was convinced that ]FutureHiro was played by a different actor than SuperHiro and that ]Nikki's husband was the mindwipe guy. But after this episode, I see ]that I was incorrect on both of those. I think we are going to find ]out a lot more about Nikki's powers and past in the next episode. ]Based on the preview, it looks like she had some sort of trauma in ]her past that caused her to split into two Nikki's. I still think ]she's the one who killed and buried hubbie's gang members. I wonder ]where the $2 million went...? Don't get her angry...You won't like her when she's angry. ] - jmh ]* Most of the things I'm reading call him Horned Rim Glasses Man ]or HRG for short (or sometimes HRM). ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23]
Matt Grimaldi wrote: From: Horn, John I think we are going to find out a lot more about Nikki's powers and past in the next episode. Don't get her angry...You won't like her when she's angry. They're calling her the Incredible MILF on-line. :-) Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23]
Jim Sharkey wrote: Matt Grimaldi wrote: From: Horn, John I think we are going to find out a lot more about Nikki's powers and past in the next episode. Don't get her angry...You won't like her when she's angry. They're calling her the Incredible MILF on-line. :-) Jim :D OK, that does it, I have to check it out! Julia who's been called a MILF, herself ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23]
- Original Message - From: jdiebremse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 6:28 AM Subject: Re: Heroes [SPOILERS Through 10/23] --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hiro is definately my favorite character of the series, followed by the Indian professors son. Last week I was arguing that the guy from the future might not be Hiro, but this week it is plain that he is indeed Hiro. The swords really threw me and his demeanor is vastly different than the Hiro of the first three episodes, leading me to argue this week that Future Hiro is not from the near/immediate future but from sometime a few years ahead. Future Hiro has a self-possession and gravitas that a geeky dreamer like Present Hiro couldn't possibly obtain in the few weeks before the disaster strikes. I think also that he could not be very adept with that sword after only a few weeks. He also got contacts! Did you catch the long ponytail? Just how far in the future is he from? I D/Led mondays episode last night just so I could catch some more details. xponent Timelines Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: New Battlestar Galactica - no spoilers.
--- Max Battcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Harney wrote: One series that I hope wraps up in this or the next season is Stargate: SG-1. Despite Ben Browder being one of my favorite actors, I think the series has had a good run and really needs to conclude rather than running it until it fizzles out like Sci-fi Channel seems intent on doing. I would interested to see it continue for some time. No American Sci-Fi tv show has yet to build a good wrong across cast generations. I'd agree, although I don't think just hot-swapping Ben Browder for MacGuyver counts as a cast generation; as Gen. Hammond put it in the season premiere, I see you got the band back together. -k- __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: New Battlestar Galactica - no spoilers.
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kerri miller Sent: January 8, 2006 2:33 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: New Battlestar Galactica - no spoilers. --- Max Battcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Harney wrote: One series that I hope wraps up in this or the next season is Stargate: SG-1. Despite Ben Browder being one of my favorite actors, I think the series has had a good run and really needs to conclude rather than running it until it fizzles out like Sci-fi Channel seems intent on doing. I would interested to see it continue for some time. No American Sci-Fi tv show has yet to build a good wrong across cast generations. I'd agree, although I don't think just hot-swapping Ben Browder for MacGuyver counts as a cast generation; as Gen. Hammond put it in the season premiere, I see you got the band back together. -k- __ Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.15/223 - Release Date: 06/01/2006 That wasn’t the season premiere that was the midseason break ender that sci-fi channel is so found of doing. I guess you could call it season 9.5 But that is just a little foolish sounding. nick -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.15/223 - Release Date: 06/01/2006 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: New Battlestar Galactica - no spoilers.
--- Nick Lidster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That wasnt the season premiere that was the midseason break ender that sci-fi channel is so found of doing. I guess you could call it season 9.5 But that is just a little foolish sounding. Not to be snarky and bitchy, but you're the 3rd person to correct me on this point. Is it really that important to be precise about such things? :) -kerri still going 'squee!' over the MIDSEASON BREAK ENDER episode of BSG' miller- __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
New Battlestar Galactica - no spoilers.
I just watched the first episode, of the second part of season 2, that I had saved on DVR from last night. I have always liked it from the start, but that show just gets better and better. I didn't see that end coming. Well, at least the end that will be concluded next week. Earlier in the week, I watched the BSG primer on Sci-Fi. I knew that Jamie Bamber was British, but it never occurred to me about his accent. After listening to him speak, I'm impressed that he does such a flawless American accent. But then again, I grew up around Brits and sometimes don't notice British accents. Anyway, I hope that BSG doesn't peak early and then go downhill. __ ...speak your mind, even if your voice shakes... - Maggie Kuhn ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: New Battlestar Galactica - no spoilers.
Gary Nunn wrote: Anyway, I hope that BSG doesn't peak early and then go downhill. Given the Sci-fi Channel's past, I think it's a better hope that the show reaches a conclusion before it's canceled. I like this new BSG too, and I never was a fan of the original, so that says a lot, but Sci-fi only cares about the same thing that other networks do: ratings. I liked the Invisible Man. I liked Farscape. Both of those series died before their time, so just hope that BSG's ratings stay up. Or better yet, make sure its ratings stay up by talling all your friends to watch. As for BSG's story, I can see where they are taking it, and I wouldn't be too worried about it peaking early and going downhill. If the story goes where I think it is, then there's lots of room for action and drama. One series that I hope wraps up in this or the next season is Stargate: SG-1. Despite Ben Browder being one of my favorite actors, I think the series has had a good run and really needs to conclude rather than running it until it fizzles out like Sci-fi Channel seems intent on doing. Michael Harney [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: New Battlestar Galactica - no spoilers.
Michael Harney wrote: Given the Sci-fi Channel's past, I think it's a better hope that the show reaches a conclusion before it's canceled. I like this new BSG too, and I never was a fan of the original, so that says a lot, but Sci-fi only cares about the same thing that other networks do: ratings. I liked the Invisible Man. I liked Farscape. Both of those series died before their time, so just hope that BSG's ratings stay up. Or better yet, make sure its ratings stay up by talling all your friends to watch. As for BSG's story, I can see where they are taking it, and I wouldn't be too worried about it peaking early and going downhill. If the story goes where I think it is, then there's lots of room for action and drama. One series that I hope wraps up in this or the next season is Stargate: SG-1. Despite Ben Browder being one of my favorite actors, I think the series has had a good run and really needs to conclude rather than running it until it fizzles out like Sci-fi Channel seems intent on doing. - I saw the BSG mini-series (they actually ran it on AFN-Korea) and thought the show had potential. AFN also ran Season 1, but only for a station that shows on military bases, so those of us living off-base can't get it. I was hoping one of the Korean Channels would pick it up, but they haven't yet. They do show the Stargates. So, I asked for and recieved the first two seasons of BSG DVDs; I have something to do for a while. I only seen the first 7 episodes of Farscape; I borrowed the DVD pack from a friend. I rather enjoyed it. So I went to Amazon to see if I could get the entire season and saw the prices. WOW! Do they think they are Star Trek? Even in the military exchange the price is $89.00. I still may save my allowance . . . I also recently watched Season 1 of Atlantis. I really liked it--a lot! What a cliffhanger. Too bad they couldn't have found a better foe than a reace of Lestat's. One cool thing is that not all humans are getting along. The planet with Colm Meany looks to be a thorn in the Atlantis side for sometime to come. Looking forward to season 2. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: New Battlestar Galactica - no spoilers.
Michael Harney wrote: One series that I hope wraps up in this or the next season is Stargate: SG-1. Despite Ben Browder being one of my favorite actors, I think the series has had a good run and really needs to conclude rather than running it until it fizzles out like Sci-fi Channel seems intent on doing. I would interested to see it continue for some time. No American Sci-Fi tv show has yet to build a good wrong across cast generations. I'm not saying that SG-1 could ever be as venerable as, say, Dr. Who, but I would love to see at least one show in my lifetime survive a decent secondary run with a new lead. The key here is, are the writers up to the challenge? (Slider's writers in a few key seasons certainly were not.) -- --Max Battcher-- http://www.worldmaker.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE:Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
I am jumping in a bit late but what with one thing or the other, I didn't get around to reading this thread until this morning. Gautam wrote: In this book, however, the situation is different - and here, in a real sense, I am more impressed. Now, Harry is the king of Hogwarts. A hero to most of his peers, adored by girls, the favorite of most of the teachers, captain of the Quidditch team. Harry isn't the downtrodden outcast. He's the elite. What does he do? He (in my single favorite moment of the book) invites Luna Lovegood to a prestigious party. Now that the books are being read by everyone, I think Rowling is taking advantage of this popularity to send a new, much rarer message. Now, knowing that the kings of the school will also be reading her books, I think Rowling is trying to teach _them_ something. This is how you should behave. You reach out to the poor kids, the unpopular kids. That's not a common message, because most kids lit doesn't have the popular kids as the heroes. I disagree on two points here. First, I don't think Harry's invitation to Luna was any kind of a big deal. Harry couldn't invite the girl he wanted to invite, was pre-occupied, and invited the first girl he considered a friend. All I could see in his actions was convenience. Not that Harry doesn't take a stand on the issue, but that happens right at the beginning of the term, on the train to Hogwarts as a matter of fact. And there, I found the message to be not that popular kids should reach out to the unpopular kids, but that popularity is an ephemeral thing, and that friendship and loyalty matter more than the appearance of being 'cool'[the entire exchange in the train when Harry is questioned about his companions, his answer, Luna's comment and Harry's response to the same]. And that brings me to the second point of disagreement - I don't think Rowling [through her characters] was advocating that the popular kids to reach out to the poor, unpopular kids [the notion has a uncomfortable tinge of noblesse oblige to me], but was pointing out that the kids unpopular in school have their own good points, points well worth appreciating. Harry, although somewhat uncomfortable and embarassed around Luna, still appreciates the fact that she fought by his side. Ron is on the way to becoming a fan of her Quidditch commentary. 3. Finally, briefly, and inextricably from the above, I think there is some level of political allegory involved. Definitely. My favourite part was when Harry tells Scrimgeour that he has no desire to be affiliated with a Ministry which doesn't ensure people's innocence or guilt before chucking them in prison. And I really liked the fact that he relayed pertinent bits of that conversation to Dumbledore. :) Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Warren Ockrassa wrote: I don't believe they are like every other children's title out there. They are a mix of familiar elements from two strands of children's literature - boarding school and fantasy - that in terms of quality sit somewhere in the middle of the field. I'll wager you're more immersed in better books for kids. For that reason I'm guessing you don't live in the States. ;) I remember Reading Rainbow used to always harp on the Carnegie Award winners, and I remember teachers that also did that. Interesting to find out later in life that the Carnegie Awards are British. Odd to see such a major instance of our having to import good thinking. I find it ironic, too, that the worst player in the Franchise Books for Kids, with their awful advertising direct in our public schools, the Scholastic Corporation, also just happens to be the ones publishing the American editions of the Harry Potter series. -- --Max Battcher-- http://www.worldmaker.net/ Support Open/Free Mythoi: Read the manifesto @ mythoi.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On 7/25/05, Warren Ockrassa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They are fun books and encouraging children to read is always a good thing but in what possible sense have they raised any bar? Have you read them? Yep. The arc of storytelling isn't the only thing that develops; the depth of writing and of issues tackled by Rowling has also increased from novel to novel. I don't know of any other children's series that matures along with its readers. It's true the books have matured; whilst still not exactly subtle Rowling has toned down the broader, most childish elements. However there's no way the books have matured with their readers, rather they have moved from the 9-10 level to the 11-12 year old level. Any one who has kept pace with Harry in years as they have read the books will have far out matured the book. There's a huge crossover into adult readership at least partly because of that. Why would that explain the crossover? Why would adults start reading a book for ten years olds on the off chance the series will become for seventeen years olds? And, of course, the books are simply, strictly *better* than most of what passes for kids' titles out there. They really aren't. You could walk into the children's department of a bookshop and quite easily pick up a better book. You could pick up a worse book too but that's not the point. I'd ask, rather, in what way you believe the books to be like every other children's title out there. I don't believe they are like every other children's title out there. They are a mix of familiar elements from two strands of children's literature - boarding school and fantasy - that in terms of quality sit somewhere in the middle of the field. Martin ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On Jul 26, 2005, at 2:12 AM, Martin Lewis wrote: On 7/25/05, Warren Ockrassa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They are fun books and encouraging children to read is always a good thing but in what possible sense have they raised any bar? Have you read them? Yep. :D OK. I figured you had, but it doesn't hurt to establish that right out. Some people don't like HP but haven't read the books. Some base the judgment only on the first movie, which is a little like dissing ST:TOS based on a viewing of ST:TMP. The arc of storytelling isn't the only thing that develops; the depth of writing and of issues tackled by Rowling has also increased from novel to novel. I don't know of any other children's series that matures along with its readers. It's true the books have matured; whilst still not exactly subtle Rowling has toned down the broader, most childish elements. Yeah, and there are times when I wonder if she always planned it to be that way, or if she's been developing as a writer too, or if there are editors avidly encouraging her, or if marketing punch alone is letting her take a more mature tone, or what. However there's no way the books have matured with their readers, rather they have moved from the 9-10 level to the 11-12 year old level. Hmm, I'll have to disagree there. Starting with book 4 much heavier issues are covered, things that tend to be deeper than are recognized as acceptable lit for the barely preteen crowd. Any one who has kept pace with Harry in years as they have read the books will have far out matured the book. Definitely, but that's partly because the books aren't released one per year. ;) There's a huge crossover into adult readership at least partly because of that. Why would that explain the crossover? Why would adults start reading a book for ten years olds on the off chance the series will become for seventeen years olds? Oh, they wouldn't, you're right about that. I was thinking more of adult readers who came to the series later, say with book 3 or 4 (maybe picking one up one day to see why son/daughter is so enamored), and realized they didn't suck at all, so decided to start from the beginning and read the whole series. Certainly no one reading in 1998 or '99 or so would have thought things could have developed they way they have over time. And, of course, the books are simply, strictly *better* than most of what passes for kids' titles out there. They really aren't. You could walk into the children's department of a bookshop and quite easily pick up a better book. You could pick up a worse book too but that's not the point. Um, I'm not sure which bookstores you're familiar with, but in the States, that's not so readily true. The vast bulk of children's writing marketed in the US is crap. Most of it seems to be thinly-plotted obviously formulaic franchise drivel, roughly the text equivalent of any Law and Order or CSI series. And some of it is so devastatingly unreadable that I can't imagine it would *promote* literacy in youth. It's the textual equivalent of shit-flavored ice cream: Sure to leave an unforgettably bad taste in the mouth, guaranteed to affect opinions for a lifetime. I'd ask, rather, in what way you believe the books to be like every other children's title out there. I don't believe they are like every other children's title out there. They are a mix of familiar elements from two strands of children's literature - boarding school and fantasy - that in terms of quality sit somewhere in the middle of the field. I'll wager you're more immersed in better books for kids. For that reason I'm guessing you don't live in the States. ;) -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Jim Sharkey wrote: I've always wondered if she didn't create Snape's visuals with Rickman in mind. He's just too perfect a fit. What's fun about the movies is watching these fine English actors hamming it up and having a good time. Emma Thompson in particular cracked me up. I've been very partial to Rickman since GalaxyQuest (I'll admit I'm a dork). Whether or not Rowling wrote the character with Rickman in mind, I'm sure it was probably somewhere between Rickman and McKellan that I saw in the part. Dame Maggie Smith, I thought, was another brilliantly cast actor. It is amazing that the filmmakers were able to tie together and contract such a great cast for the movies. There aren't as many great, classically trained actors in work outside of Shakespearean performances, and here they are doing kid's movies. Of course, I still find it amazing that the books have pushed kids to read several thousand pages of text. -- --Max Battcher-- http://www.worldmaker.net/ Support Open/Free Mythoi: Read the manifesto @ mythoi.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On Jul 24, 2005, at 11:11 PM, Max Battcher wrote: It is amazing that the filmmakers were able to tie together and contract such a great cast for the movies. There aren't as many great, classically trained actors in work outside of Shakespearean performances, and here they are doing kid's movies. Of course, I still find it amazing that the books have pushed kids to read several thousand pages of text. I suspect it's the fact of the latter graf that's influenced the events you described in the former. The books have done a lot for youth literacy and have raised the bar regarding what's acceptable children's lit; I'd bet that had a real influence in which actors/actresses were willing to be recruited for the movies. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On 7/25/05, Warren Ockrassa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is amazing that the filmmakers were able to tie together and contract such a great cast for the movies. There aren't as many great, classically trained actors in work outside of Shakespearean performances, and here they are doing kid's movies. Of course, I still find it amazing that the books have pushed kids to read several thousand pages of text. I suspect it's the fact of the latter graf that's influenced the events you described in the former. The books have done a lot for youth literacy and have raised the bar regarding what's acceptable children's lit. They are fun books and encouraging children to read is always a good thing but in what possible sense have they raised any bar? Martin ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On Jul 25, 2005, at 1:39 PM, Martin Lewis wrote: They are fun books and encouraging children to read is always a good thing but in what possible sense have they raised any bar? Have you read them? The arc of storytelling isn't the only thing that develops; the depth of writing and of issues tackled by Rowling has also increased from novel to novel. I don't know of any other children's series that matures along with its readers. There's a huge crossover into adult readership at least partly because of that. And, of course, the books are simply, strictly *better* than most of what passes for kids' titles out there. I'd ask, rather, in what way you believe the books to be like every other children's title out there. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
- Original Message - From: Warren Ockrassa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 4:33 PM Subject: Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3 I'd ask, rather, in what way you believe the books to be like every other children's title out there. I'll certainly agree that the Harry Potter is far above the common crowd in youth/children's books. I think though, that a fair criterion for setting the bar higher is superiority over those books that have already set the bar: i.e. award winning books for youth and children. There are, actually, some very good books for children that have been written in the past 50 years. Off the top of my head, I think there are two ways that Rowling's work is superior. 1) It has reached many more people than other children's books. While commercial success is not a measure of quality, a book series that manages to be very good while being immensely popular should get bonus points for reaching an expanded audience. A popular formula book doesn't become a good book though popularity, but I think it takes extra skill to write good fiction that becomes a phenomenon vs. just writing good fiction. 2) Rowling has written for kids that have grown up seven years with the book. Every book appears appropriate for readers about Harry's age. I cannot think of a book series that grows with the subject in that manner. As you know, I think the book is well written, teaches important lessons (as Guatam says) about growing up as the right type of person, etc. But, I do not consider this to be unique in all of children's literature. IMHO, the two points I raised are Rowlings unique contributions. The rest is consistent with her just being an excellent author. :-) Dan M. 2) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
- Original Message - From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3 That's true, but I think it understates the power of the scenes where Harry is at the Dursley's. There he's clearly the oppressed one, and Rowling (significantly, until this book) is careful to give us a good long taste of what it's like for Harry to live there. Sure, but after his first year at Hogswarts, he is acually more powerful than his opressors. He does, of course, lose control in Prisoner and inflate his uncle's sister, IIRC. But, the ministry of magic dismisses this as minor. After that, he's bright enough to see that he can do a lot to them in small ways to make their life as miserable as they make his. But, he doesn't. He behaves ethically from the beginning. Yes, he has teenage angst in Phoenix, and does some dumb things, but he really doesn't do wrong.I think it is somewhat amazing that Rowling can make the arch from doing the right thing because one wishes to please a father figure (Dumbledore), to still doing the right thing after finding out that he can get very mad at Dumbledore, and that Dumbledore does make mistakes. It's amazing because she also has him as inherently good from the start, perhaps due to the magic of his parent's love supporting him after their deaths (blood will tell is certainly not the reason). Similarly, it may be true that only Snape is against him - but the other teachers really do little to help him, while Snape does a great deal to harm him. So I think it's true that Harry stuck by ordinary people from the beginning - but it's different to do so when your primary identification is as one of the downtrodden, and another when you're the elite. Hmm, doesn't his house patron get him on the Quiddich team after he is found flying when he really isn't suppose to? And, he has Dumbledore in his corner from day one. Even though Snapes can give him a really hard time, having the headmaster on one's side is akin to holding trumps. I think that it's true that he was only an outcast at Hogwarts for some periods. But he was an outcast for _the first 11 years of his life_. And Rowling is careful to make that status clear in all of the earlier books. Sure she does, but she let kids know that things would get better for Harry very early in even the first book. In a sense, the books ask this question: you've been taken out of a very opressive situation and now have chances and potential that are truely magical. What are you going to do with this chance? Once he gets to Hogswort he doesn't deal with real opression any more; just conflict. One very good example of this is how, at the beginning of Phoenix everyone expects him to be the proctor. Instead, it is Ron. Even Ron's mom is shocked. The moral challange for Harry was to be happy for his friend, even though everyone kinda expected the honor to naturally belong to Harry. I agree that, after setting up a classic prince in hiding scenario, Rowling changes it into what you saidwhich is well done. I think that our disagreement on Snape is tied into the nuances of the moral message we think Rowling is teaching. If Snape turns out to be a hero in the end, I think that it will tied up with a key lesson that Harry has to learn. Dan M. I'm not really sure what the lesson would be, though. Things aren't always what they appear? Didn't Harry learn that from the Sirius Black affair? Whether or not Snape turns out to be a good guy, he's an awful person who, at best, is seeking to redeem himself for unforgiveable acts. He shows himself to be a tremendously flawed person, who is doing a dreadful job of overcoming the problems of his early years. He lets his feelings/attitudes show with Harry from the beginninghe cannot/will not separate Harry from the torment Harry's very popular father inflicted on him. In many little ways, his has often done the wrong thing. But, until this book, when the chips were down, he did the right thing. He is the only deatheater that we know of to have repented (assuming my read of the end of the story is correct). I see the potential for a significant moral lesson in the finale. Let me offer one potential scenario...Rawling will probably be better at this than I am. ;-) Harry rightfully considers Snape a jerk, who has not treated Harry very well, who has done horrible things in the past, and who has killed Dumbledore...who's man Harry still is. Somewhere Harry will have to trust Snape's and accept his explanation. He will struggle with it, because of his feelings, but will see that the only real chance for success. And, Snape acts in a manner that allows Harry to win, even though he still hates Harry. I think the moral lesson will involve wisdom, and the complicated nature of people. Without excusing Snape's
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On Jul 25, 2005, at 4:20 PM, Dan Minette wrote: Yes, he has teenage angst in Phoenix, and does some dumb things, but he really doesn't do wrong. Is teenage angst in Phoenix anything like fear and loathing in Las Vegas? :D -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
[Spoiler space] On Jul 20, 2005, at 5:16 PM, Matt Grimaldi wrote: I'm thinking that he did have Dumbledore's blessing. Looking at the death scene, it's very clear that Dumbledore was trying to rescue Draco from having blood on his hands. Warren Ockrassa wrote: That's a damned astute observation. He was definitely delaying Draco, and I'd be very surprised if it were from *fear* that he was doing it. He was waiting for someone to show up, and when Snape finally does, it's almost like he's egging him on. I have a hunch that Draco's task was similar to Snape's original sin that he's trying to atone for backstory. Anyway, Dumbledore prime concern was definitely *not* trying to prolong his own life in that scene, but rather trying to protect both Harry and Draco. As for Harry himself being one of the Horcruxes; I had that idea too while reading this book, but set it aside. If his scar really was one of those things, they would have made some effort at removing it long ago. I have a feeling that the final truth about that scar will be much more complicated, and probably will explain why Harry has such difficulty with occulomancy (sp). -- Matt ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Warren Ockrassa wrote: I see your point, and it'll be interesting to see if it resolves that way or not. It could break either direction, really. That's part of Rowling's appeal for me. She's pretty careful to keep you guessing, and as Gautam pointed out, makes a concerted effort to play fair with her readers. It's one of her best qualities. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Warren Ockrassa Julia Thompson wrote: p.s. the best thing about Snape, as far as I'm concerned, is the actor who's played him in the movies Alan Rickman. He was also the Metatron in DOGMA, the Sherriff of Nottingham in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves, and the Spock-like character in Galaxy Quest. I've always wondered if she didn't create Snape's visuals with Rickman in mind. He's just too perfect a fit. What's fun about the movies is watching these fine English actors hamming it up and having a good time. Emma Thompson in particular cracked me up. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Dan Minette wrote: - Original Message - From: Maru Dubshinki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 10:57 PM Subject: Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3 Spoiler Space Returned And I felt very annoyed when the Prince turned out to be Snape rather than Voldemort. I feel a little cheated at such dishonesty- one expected the Prince to be actually a prince, no? I knew from the very start that Voldermort was not the Prince. There was a big clue before the book came out. (Rowling said he wasn't.) :-) Dan M. I missed that statement from her. :) I, like Maru, thought it was Voldemort. But I like being surprised by a book, so that was OK. Very pissed at Snape, but I need to go back over some things that may help explain to me *why* he did what he did. Julia p.s. the best thing about Snape, as far as I'm concerned, is the actor who's played him in the movies -- now I'm hoping Rowling can convince me there are better things about him (although that particular actor is very hard to top, in my book) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On Jul 19, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Jim Sharkey wrote: [Yep, spoilers] Warren Ockrassa wrote: Jim Sharkey wrote: S P O I L E R S P A C E Snape is revealed. Is he? I think Ms. Rowling *still* left enough wiggle room for Severus not to be the bad guy. Yes, he did kill Dumbledore, but there are signs both in that scene and in Harry's pursuit of him that suggest there's more to it than Snape is on the Dark Side. This isn't a Lucasian world where a single act of good can redeem a murder (a la Vader at the end of RotJ). And Snape, unlike Draco, *chose* to take on the task should Malfoy prove unable. He elected to take the oath; he wasn't under anyone's compulsion. I don't think there's any way to recover from that. This is true. However, I think it's clear that Snape may have been told to do whatever it takes to stay in Voldemort's inner circle. *And* Dumbledore's pleading with Snape could just as easily have been him pleading for Snape to do what was necessary to save Malfoy and his family. Not to mention that it was just as possible that even Snape couldn't take on four Death Eaters, meaning if he tried to save Albus all that would have happened was that everyone (including Dumbledore) would have died pointlessly. I see your point, and it'll be interesting to see if it resolves that way or not. It could break either direction, really. Finally, his parting shot to Harry: Blocked again and again and again, Potter, until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed. Sounds like good advice to me. And while Voldemort is supposed to kill Harry, as Snape points out, why not stun him and bring him to the Dark Lord rather than let him go? Voldy already proved he's not above having Harry served up on a platter in GoF. Might have been a little too inconvenient to be dragging him along for his disapparition, perhaps, or just one of those things that bad guys do for plot convenience. You've got an interesting outlook, and as I was thinking about it before I remembered Dumbledore's pleading tone as well and got to wondering what exactly it meant. Did he paralyze Harry to save him from being torched by the Death Eaters, or to stop him from interfering in something he knew had to be done? -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
(No spoilers) On Jul 20, 2005, at 11:08 AM, Julia Thompson wrote: p.s. the best thing about Snape, as far as I'm concerned, is the actor who's played him in the movies -- now I'm hoping Rowling can convince me there are better things about him (although that particular actor is very hard to top, in my book) Alan Rickman. Yeah, he's got a real personality, doesn't he? He was also Marvin's voice in the dreadful movie version of _Hitchhiker_ -- and, IMO, the single asset the movie had -- and he was the chief bad guy in _Die Hard_, which I hadn't realized at all until seeing the movie again comparatively recently. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
-- [Spoiler room] . . . The look on Snapes' face is a clue I think. His reaction to being called a coward is another. I think it would be a wonderful twist if Snape, who has now lost all honor, actually did it because he promised Dumbledore that he wouldand because it was necessary for Harry to succeed. That's an interesting suggestion. So Snape took the oath because he knew he had to, in order to be a kind of fifth column in the Death Eaters, and he did it with Dumbledore's blessing? Hmm! I'm thinking that he did have Dumbledore's blessing. Looking at the death scene, it's very clear that Dumbledore was trying to rescue Draco from having blood on his hands. Once the other death-eaters showed up, he knew his life was ending; but he strove to the very end to protect every one of the students in his school. Snape, on the other hand, was probably near panic, watching whatever plans he was working on fall apart around him. My big question is about the object they retrieved. Who is RAB, how many other horcruxes did he find, how long ago, and did he destroy them? Another angle is that maybe Harry really does have the Horcrux, and has been duped by misinformation. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On Jul 20, 2005, at 5:16 PM, Matt Grimaldi wrote: [Spoiler space] I'm thinking that he did have Dumbledore's blessing. Looking at the death scene, it's very clear that Dumbledore was trying to rescue Draco from having blood on his hands. That's a damned astute observation. He was definitely delaying Draco, and I'd be very surprised if it were from *fear* that he was doing it. He was waiting for someone to show up, and when Snape finally does, it's almost like he's egging him on. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
--- Matt Grimaldi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My big question is about the object they retrieved. Who is RAB, how many other horcruxes did he find, how long ago, and did he destroy them? Another angle is that maybe Harry really does have the Horcrux, and has been duped by misinformation. I think RAB has to be Regulus Black, Sirius's brother who was killed by Voldemort. The horcrux he took would then be the locket that gets briefly mentioned while they're cleaning out 5 Grimmauld Place in OotP. My guess is that this locket was stolen by what's-his-name, the guy Harry gets upset with in this book, and they'll have to find it and retrieve it in book 7. Now, my question is, is _Harry_ a horcrux? That would give Voldemort a Gryffindor-tied horcrux, which is exactly what he wants. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On Jul 20, 2005, at 10:17 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: [Mo' space] Now, my question is, is _Harry_ a horcrux? That would give Voldemort a Gryffindor-tied horcrux, which is exactly what he wants. I was wondering that too. Maybe Moldy didn't really *want* to kill him when he was an infant. Maybe Harry ended up containing a piece of Moldy's soul. Heh, and you thought you had problems with *roaches*! ;) -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Half-Blood Prince (No spoilers)
On Jul 16, 2005, at 10:12 AM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: Just finished - I got it at 8:50am this morning. It's dazzling. Rowling gets better with each book - it's just phenomenal. I'll agree there. I wonder how much of that is her development as a writer versus her understanding that, as her characters mature (as do her readers), she can deal more directly with deeper, more difficult subjects. It was a hell of a read. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
No spoilers here. On Jul 17, 2005, at 4:45 PM, Jim Sharkey wrote: Gautam Mukunda wrote: One of the striking things about the books, really, is how _angry_ they are. You get the feeling that Rowling works herself up into a howling rage at the British class system - something she is able to do despite being a billionaire. I believe she was all but homeless shortly before HPtPS sold, however. That may go a long way to explaining things. She was a struggling single mother, yes, and living in a bit of a hovel. And in the attempts to get the first book published she was rejected by a LOT of editors, many of whom might not be able to find work anywhere any more. She's certainly not fond of elitism or class prejudice, I would suspect. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On Jul 16, 2005, at 11:07 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: [Ye Olde ƒpoiler-ƒpace.] . . . 1. The plot of this book was actually very sparse. In terms of the main plot - the war - what happened? There wasn't much of a sense of a larger scale, but then, none of the HP books have *ever* been about anything but Harry, Hermione and Ron, really, set largely at Hogwarts. She couldn't open the scale of the narrative without reducing the focus, I thought. That said, there did seem to be some glossings-over of affected students' families, but then, given how the book ended, maybe the thought was that the emotional impact of the last few chapters was more than enough. Just as Rowling doesn't delve extensively into intimate relationships, she doesn't seem to want to describe, in rich detail, the collateral damage of the war. Too, there's the fact that much of it is kept underground to begin with. There's a sense of suppression of sorts, but then, think back to your high school days. How much active discussion of current wars was going on in formal classroom settings? Three chief events. Dumbledore is killed. Snape is revealed. We learn what Harry will have to do to defeat Voldemort. That's all I can think of. Mm, development of Ron Hermione, which didn't surprise me; and Harry and Ginny's brief tryst, which also didn't surprise me, and which I expect will be revisited… The big shock was not Dumbledore dying, of course - it's been obvious that that had to happen at the end of Book Six since, well, Book 1, probably. What is a huge shock, of course, is that _Snape_ would be the one who murders him. Yeah, me too -- I had the impression that at first Malfoy was told to target Harry, but when Ron drank the poisoned mead I realized Dumbledore was the target. And I kept expecting Snape to somehow figure out a way to break the oath and survive, or maybe let Dumbledore win in a duel, or maybe that D. had something up his sleeve, so to speak, in his slow floorward progress on the parapet. I am quite impressed by Rowling's skill in setting this up. As in each of her other books, she plays absolutely fair with the reader. We had enough information to figure out (before Harry does) what Malfoy was doing, for example - although I doubt many people will. Ahh, the mead's a dead give-away, isn't it? To me it was one of those clues like the flowery scent Harry smells near the love potion, and then a few chapters later the flowery scent he notices just before Ginny shows up. And as far back as book 4 (maybe even 3) or so she was clearly carrying a torch for him. But in each book Rowling has carefully crafted a structure - we suspect Snape, we hate Snape, we discover that Snape is actually a good guy. By this book, of course, I was so used to that structure that I completely failed to suspect Snape. I kept vacillating, FWIW. I really wanted to believe he was playing a part, I suppose. His duplicity in the end -- or was it, really, duplicity? -- did catch me off guard. I think I was hoping that Rowling was going to make a point about intentions sometimes being masked by necessities, but of course Harry was right all along. So when Snape appeared at the last minute - I expected him to rescuce Dumbledore (somehow) or perhaps even die in glorious but futile defense of him. Yeah! Exactly. I certainly didn't expect the murder. Yet again, here - Rowling actually provides us with a Voldemort-approved explanation for his behavior, and we knew (from Harry's Occlumency lessons) that Snape was a half-blood - although I don't recall _anyone_ suggesting Snape as the Half-Blood Prince, and it certainly didn't occur to me while I was reading. I only suspected it toward the end, after Harry curses Malfoy in the bathroom. It occurred to me that maybe somehow it was Snape's book after all (earlier I'd suspected it was another one of Moldyfart's oblique historical artifacts), but then of course there was the female Prince Hermione found out about. There's a theme here dealing with mudbloods too. The Dark wizards all seem to be fanatically uptight about purity -- and yet not ONE of the major players, even Moldy himself, happen to have the purity of blood they so crave. They're self-loathing first, it seems, and rather than deal with it in a healthy way they decide to spread the misery around. The focus was clearly (as it says on the dust jacket flap, of all things) on the home front. We got to see relationships further develop at Hogswarts - in a highly amusing and enjoyable fashion, of course. To slip into discussion of the movies for a moment, I was very satisfied with the way Cuaròn dealt with this in the third film. He ushers all three of the characters into the maturity of young adulthood in a way that simply would have been impossible for Columbus. CC would have made sure there was a lot of mugging, eye-rolling and other goofy
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On Jul 17, 2005, at 8:12 AM, Jim Sharkey wrote: [More space…] Gautam Mukunda wrote: 1. A few quick thoughts on the plot 2. Some more serious thoughts on the moral messages and ideas I think Rowling is trying to convey (and why they make me far more impressed by her writing than I was before reading this one) 3. A few brief thoughts on the extent to which Rowling is engaging in - at least to a small extent - some political allegory S P O I L E R S P A C E Snape is revealed. Is he? I think Ms. Rowling *still* left enough wiggle room for Severus not to be the bad guy. Yes, he did kill Dumbledore, but there are signs both in that scene and in Harry's pursuit of him that suggest there's more to it than Snape is on the Dark Side. Ah, but Dumbledore, in his discussion of horcruxes, makes it clear that murder destroys the soul. This isn't a Lucasian world where a single act of good can redeem a murder (a la Vader at the end of RotJ). And Snape, unlike Draco, *chose* to take on the task should Malfoy prove unable. He elected to take the oath; he wasn't under anyone's compulsion. I don't think there's any way to recover from that. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On Jul 17, 2005, at 12:19 PM, Dan Minette wrote: [Spoiler room] . . . The look on Snapes' face is a clue I think. His reaction to being called a coward is another. I think it would be a wonderful twist if Snape, who has now lost all honor, actually did it because he promised Dumbledore that he wouldand because it was necessary for Harry to succeed. That's an interesting suggestion. So Snape took the oath because he knew he had to, in order to be a kind of fifth column in the Death Eaters, and he did it with Dumbledore's blessing? Hmm! There is one more clue concerning this, Dumbledore knows something about Snape that no-one else does. He was not fooled by Tom Riddle, and I don't think he was fooled by Snape. Or maybe it was simply his sense of optimism regarding pretty much everyone. I get the sense that he *wanted* to see the good in Riddle but, over the years, began to recognize that it was impossible. Someone in book 6 made a comment to the effect that Dumbledore has no choice but to see the good in almost everyone, and that it would be his downfall. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On Jul 17, 2005, at 3:57 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: [Spoilerplate] . . . --- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2. OK - this is really the part of the book I find most interesting. The extent to which these books are, in a sense, didactic is quite remarkable to me, and I really admire both Rowling's skill and her principles. There are a few scenes in particular that, to me, send this message. But let's set the context a little bit. In the earlier books Harry was, in general, a poor, downtrodden kid. I don't think so. He is _the_ Harry Potter almost from the beginning. He is a favorite of the headmaster, of many of the teachers, and is a rare first year Seeker, who is remarkedly good at it, too. He is proclaimed a hero at the end of the first book, and wins glory for his house with his actions. Only Snape, who distrusts the family, and Malfoy and his henchmen are against him. Further, Malfoy is against him because he turned down an invitation to join him very publically. Harry was sticking by ordinary people (a poorer wizzard family and a Mudblood from the the very beginning. That's true, but I think it understates the power of the scenes where Harry is at the Dursley's. There he's clearly the oppressed one, and Rowling (significantly, until this book) is careful to give us a good long taste of what it's like for Harry to live there. Similarly, it may be true that only Snape is against him - but the other teachers really do little to help him, while Snape does a great deal to harm him. So I think it's true that Harry stuck by ordinary people from the beginning - but it's different to do so when your primary identification is as one of the downtrodden, and another when you're the elite. It just occurred to me how very Dickensian a lot of this story is. Harry's more or less the perfect iconic Dickens hero -- a boy who survives tremendous oppression, an orphan, who manages to maintain a sweet spirit, and who over time and in the right environments flourishes as a really fine young man. When was he an outcast? He had two great friends, he was a key player on _the_ sports team, etc. It wasn't until book 4 5 that people in general started questioning him because he said that You-Know-Who was back and that he fought him. I think that it's true that he was only an outcast at Hogwarts for some periods. But he was an outcast for _the first 11 years of his life_. And Rowling is careful to make that status clear in all of the earlier books. One of the striking things about the books, really, is how _angry_ they are. You get the feeling that Rowling works herself up into a howling rage at the British class system - something she is able to do despite being a billionaire. That was the biggest insight to come out of Slate's Book Clubs on Harry Potter, I think. And that again is what feels so much like Dickens. (Well, that plus the books are turning into great whopping thick wedges of pulp, another Dickens hallmark. ;) -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
On Jul 17, 2005, at 9:00 PM, Dan Minette wrote: [Spoiler!] From: Maru Dubshinki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 10:57 PM Subject: Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3 Spoiler Space Returned And I felt very annoyed when the Prince turned out to be Snape rather than Voldemort. I feel a little cheated at such dishonesty- one expected the Prince to be actually a prince, no? I knew from the very start that Voldermort was not the Prince. There was a big clue before the book came out. (Rowling said he wasn't.) :-) I was relieved. The constant references to Moldyfart were actually getting pretty trite. There was a nice break from the JKR formula here -- actually the whole book was a breach from the trend set in the first three or four volumes -- that I found quite refreshing. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
[No spoilers here] On Jul 17, 2005, at 10:17 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: When she's done with Harry Potter, I rather imagine that she's going to turn into a heck of a mystery writer. That's a neat idea. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Warren Ockrassa wrote: Jim Sharkey wrote: S P O I L E R S P A C E Snape is revealed. Is he? I think Ms. Rowling *still* left enough wiggle room for Severus not to be the bad guy. Yes, he did kill Dumbledore, but there are signs both in that scene and in Harry's pursuit of him that suggest there's more to it than Snape is on the Dark Side. This isn't a Lucasian world where a single act of good can redeem a murder (a la Vader at the end of RotJ). And Snape, unlike Draco, *chose* to take on the task should Malfoy prove unable. He elected to take the oath; he wasn't under anyone's compulsion. I don't think there's any way to recover from that. This is true. However, I think it's clear that Snape may have been told to do whatever it takes to stay in Voldemort's inner circle. *And* Dumbledore's pleading with Snape could just as easily have been him pleading for Snape to do what was necessary to save Malfoy and his family. Not to mention that it was just as possible that even Snape couldn't take on four Death Eaters, meaning if he tried to save Albus all that would have happened was that everyone (including Dumbledore) would have died pointlessly. Finally, his parting shot to Harry: Blocked again and again and again, Potter, until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed. Sounds like good advice to me. And while Voldemort is supposed to kill Harry, as Snape points out, why not stun him and bring him to the Dark Lord rather than let him go? Voldy already proved he's not above having Harry served up on a platter in GoF. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Well, ask and ye shall receieve. There are three major threads of analysis here, the last two of which are intertwined and I'm vaguely thinking about turning into something a little more serious. Anyways, they are: 1. A few quick thoughts on the plot 2. Some more serious thoughts on the moral messages and ideas I think Rowling is trying to convey (and why they make me far more impressed by her writing than I was before reading this one) 3. A few brief thoughts on the extent to which Rowling is engaging in - at least to a small extent - some political allegory So, spoilers ho! 1. The plot of this book was actually very sparse. In terms of the main plot - the war - what happened? Three chief events. Dumbledore is killed. Snape is revealed. We learn what Harry will have to do to defeat Voldemort. That's all I can think of. Each of these is important, of course, but it's really not much for a 652 page book. The big shock was not Dumbledore dying, of course - it's been obvious that that had to happen at the end of Book Six since, well, Book 1, probably. What is a huge shock, of course, is that _Snape_ would be the one who murders him. I am quite impressed by Rowling's skill in setting this up. As in each of her other books, she plays absolutely fair with the reader. We had enough information to figure out (before Harry does) what Malfoy was doing, for example - although I doubt many people will. But in each book Rowling has carefully crafted a structure - we suspect Snape, we hate Snape, we discover that Snape is actually a good guy. By this book, of course, I was so used to that structure that I completely failed to suspect Snape. So when Snape appeared at the last minute - I expected him to rescuce Dumbledore (somehow) or perhaps even die in glorious but futile defense of him. I certainly didn't expect the murder. Yet again, here - Rowling actually provides us with a Voldemort-approved explanation for his behavior, and we knew (from Harry's Occlumency lessons) that Snape was a half-blood - although I don't recall _anyone_ suggesting Snape as the Half-Blood Prince, and it certainly didn't occur to me while I was reading. The focus was clearly (as it says on the dust jacket flap, of all things) on the home front. We got to see relationships further develop at Hogswarts - in a highly amusing and enjoyable fashion, of course. We get to see Harry mature a great deal. We get to see the alliances and relationships that will be crucial to the final confrontation finally fall into place. All of this is important, but no exactly eventful. The book is successful, I think, largely because at this point we have so much invested in the characters that I (at least) really do find myself caring about what happens to them - even their relationships, not just the war effort. Rowling has earned our (or at least my) affection enough that I'm willing to read the book just to spend time with her characters, even if not a lot happens. If you don't feel that way about them (and you don't care about the stuff I'll write about in my next two points), you probably won't like the book nearly as much as I did. So, what does this say for the final book? Well, I'm sure that Harry will, in fact, return to Hogwarts, despite what he says at the conclusion. I presume that McGonagall will take over permanently as Headmaster - which implies a new head for Gryffindor and (of course) Slytherin. Malfoy will not be back - and Hogwarts without Malfoy and Snape doesn't have much potential for dramatic conflict, so I'm guessing that while Harry will be there, not that much of the plot will actually take place there. I bet he does end up taking his NEWTS, though. One wonders what Rowling would do to the SATs. 2. OK - this is really the part of the book I find most interesting. The extent to which these books are, in a sense, didactic is quite remarkable to me, and I really admire both Rowling's skill and her principles. There are a few scenes in particular that, to me, send this message. But let's set the context a little bit. In the earlier books Harry was, in general, a poor, downtrodden kid. Abused by his parents, often an outcast at school, not all that successful with girls (when it became important) and so on. One message of the earlier books was thus a powerful one sent to readers - many of whom (before the books took off) would, of course, fall into that category. That's a powerful and important message, and I appreciate Rowling doing it. But that's a routine message in children's literature. How many kids books _don't_ focus on the downtrodden outcast who ends up being a hero? It's not exactly rare. In this book, however, the situation is different - and here, in a real sense, I am more impressed. Now, Harry is the king of Hogwarts. A hero to most of his peers, adored by girls, the favorite of most of the teachers, captain of the Quidditch team. Harry isn't the downtrodden
Re: Half-Blood Prince (No spoilers)
Maru Dubshinki wrote: How about some discussion of the book? I'm pretty happy with this one; for all the exposition and mild climax, I've always been slightly miffed that all the pre-existing bits of alchemy and magic and old fairy tales and such that Rowling borrowed from were not really extended or improved- so you can imagine how happy I was when she borrowed an old fairy tale element, improved it, and made it exactly what was needed for a credible strategy for you-know-who (this is no spoilers, right?) On another note, all the backstory and revelations in this slow-moving installment have made the previous novels considerably deeper, IMO. Anyone else think so? -- Please, discuss away, but leave spoiler space for those of us who have yet to read it. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Gautam Mukunda wrote: 1. A few quick thoughts on the plot 2. Some more serious thoughts on the moral messages and ideas I think Rowling is trying to convey (and why they make me far more impressed by her writing than I was before reading this one) 3. A few brief thoughts on the extent to which Rowling is engaging in - at least to a small extent - some political allegory S P O I L E R S P A C E Snape is revealed. Is he? I think Ms. Rowling *still* left enough wiggle room for Severus not to be the bad guy. Yes, he did kill Dumbledore, but there are signs both in that scene and in Harry's pursuit of him that suggest there's more to it than Snape is on the Dark Side. For example, Dumbledore had to know he had no chance of surviving his encounted with four Death Eaters, weakened as he was by his (as it turned out, fruitless) pursuit of Voldemort's horcrux. Was his pleading to Snape actually a desire to save the lives of Malfoy and his family, and of Snape himself, rather than him hoping that he hadn't been wrong about Snape all along? Of course, on the flip side of that is how Dumbledore repeatedly insists that his few mistakes are inevitably enormous ones. Which only furthers the ambiguity, but I like that Ms. Rowling is trying to keep us guessing. :) Well, I'm sure that Harry will, in fact, return to Hogwarts, despite what he says at the conclusion. I hope you are right. I think a quest for the horcruxes book would be doing a disservice to the many secondary characters she's created, especially after giving Neville and Luna (two fan favorites from what I've seen) such short shrift this time around. In this book, however, the situation is different - and here, in a real sense, I am more impressed. Now, Harry is the king of Hogwarts. A hero to most of his peers, adored by girls, the favorite of most of the teachers, captain of the Quidditch team. Harry isn't the downtrodden outcast. He's the elite. What does he do? He (in my single favorite moment of the book) invites Luna Lovegood to a prestigious party. Now that the books are being read by everyone, I think Rowling is taking advantage of this popularity to send a new, much rarer message. Now, knowing that the kings of the school will also be reading her books, I think Rowling is trying to teach _them_ something. This is how you should behave. You reach out to the poor kids, the unpopular kids. That's not a common message, because most kids lit doesn't have the popular kids as the heroes. That's a very interesting analysis, Gautum. It's one heck of a message to send, I agree, and it's the kind of quality of character I hope my own children will have. I see it in my son; he hates for anyone, even the weird kids, to feel left out, despite the fact that he has some quality about him that makes almost everyone want to be his friend. I can only hope that he keeps that as he gets older. Character is, I have always thought, the product of choice. You are who you choose to be. Absolutely. I remember reading a saying that said something along the lines of Character is the choice you make when no one is watching. In the course of the books, Harry tries very hard to make the right choices. And even when they are the wrong choices, he makes them for the right reasons. I could not imagine a better set of messages than the dual ones of rejecting bigotry and accepting differences while also focusing on the importnace of recognizing evil and fighting it when you see it. Nor could I. Though Rowling doesn't seem to mind the wizards' anti-Muggle prejudices as much as their prejudices against other magical creatures. Yes, most wizards reject the term Mudblood, et. al., but most still look down on the non-magical as your average person on the street looks down at a mentally retarded person. That is one thing that's always bothered me a trifle about her books, frankly. I truly enjoyed your analysis, Gautum. Thanks for taking the time to post it. Jim When's book seven coming out? Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
- Original Message - From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:07 AM Subject: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3 So, spoilers ho! 1. The plot of this book was actually very sparse. In terms of the main plot - the war - what happened? Three chief events. Dumbledore is killed. Snape is revealed. We learn what Harry will have to do to defeat Voldemort. That's all I can think of. Each of these is important, of course, but it's really not much for a 652 page book. I'll bet against #2. Say first time we meet after book 7, the loser buys drinks? There are some indications that things are more complicated than we think. From memory after reading yesterday, 1) I see a parallel between the arguement between Snapes and Dumbledore and the arguement between Potter and Dumbledore. Dumbledore made Harry promise to do what he said, no matter what the consequences were to Dumbledore. Harry lied to Dumbledore about what he was drinking towards the end, knowing full well he could be killing him. My guess is that Dumbledore had some guess of the chances of he, Potter, and the Death Eaters being together. He would have given Snape an if this happened, do this order. Because Snape did it, Malfoy still hasn't killed anyone. The look on Snapes' face is a clue I think. His reaction to being called a coward is another. I think it would be a wonderful twist if Snape, who has now lost all honor, actually did it because he promised Dumbledore that he wouldand because it was necessary for Harry to succeed. There is one more clue concerning this, Dumbledore knows something about Snape that no-one else does. He was not fooled by Tom Riddle, and I don't think he was fooled by Snape. 2. OK - this is really the part of the book I find most interesting. The extent to which these books are, in a sense, didactic is quite remarkable to me, and I really admire both Rowling's skill and her principles. There are a few scenes in particular that, to me, send this message. But let's set the context a little bit. In the earlier books Harry was, in general, a poor, downtrodden kid. I don't think so. He is _the_ Harry Potter almost from the beginning. He is a favorite of the headmaster, of many of the teachers, and is a rare first year Seeker, who is remarkedly good at it, too. He is proclaimed a hero at the end of the first book, and wins glory for his house with his actions. Only Snape, who distrusts the family, and Malfoy and his henchmen are against him. Further, Malfoy is against him because he turned down an invitation to join him very publically. Harry was sticking by ordinary people (a poorer wizzard family and a Mudblood from the the very beginning. Abused by his parents (aunt and uncle, which is important I think) often an outcast at school, When was he an outcast? He had two great friends, he was a key player on _the_ sports team, etc. It wasn't until book 4 5 that people in general started questioning him because he said that You-Know-Who was back and that he fought him. not all that successful with girls (when it became important) and so on. I think the lack of success with girls was not atypical for a 15 year old boy. :-) One message of the earlier books was thus a powerful one sent to readers - many of whom (before the books took off) would, of course, fall into that category. That's a powerful and important message, and I appreciate Rowling doing it. But that's a routine message in children's literature. How many kids books _don't_ focus on the downtrodden outcast who ends up being a hero? It's not exactly rare. I agree that spans the first part of the first bookeven the first book. But, by the second book, being famous was getting to be a problem, IIRC. I think that Rowling is good in that she started playing variations on this familiar story rather early. Harry _chose_ to be a hero, as Snape and Voldemort choose to be evil. In emphasizing the centrality of choice, Rowling says something to all her readers. Harry isn't special because of a prophecy or destiny. He is special because of the choices he makes - and you too can make choices. I agree that, after setting up a classic prince in hiding scenario, Rowling changes it into what you saidwhich is well done. I think that our disagreement on Snape is tied into the nuances of the moral message we think Rowling is teaching. If Snape turns out to be a hero in the end, I think that it will tied up with a key lesson that Harry has to learn. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
- Original Message - From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 10:12 AM Subject: RE: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3 Gautam Mukunda wrote: 1. A few quick thoughts on the plot 2. Some more serious thoughts on the moral messages and ideas I think Rowling is trying to convey (and why they make me far more impressed by her writing than I was before reading this one) 3. A few brief thoughts on the extent to which Rowling is engaging in - at least to a small extent - some political allegory S P O I L E R S P A C E Nor could I. Though Rowling doesn't seem to mind the wizards' anti-Muggle prejudices as much as their prejudices against other magical creatures. Yes, most wizards reject the term Mudblood, et. al., but most still look down on the non-magical as your average person on the street looks down at a mentally retarded person. That is one thing that's always bothered me a trifle about her books, frankly. But, one of the three main characters is a Mudblood. Three critical characters are half-breeds. The pure blood ancestors of Tom Riddle were wizzard trash. I think she was just being subtle about this, not ignoring it. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, spoilers ho! 1. The plot of this book was actually very sparse. In terms of the main plot - the war - what happened? Three chief events. Dumbledore is killed. Snape is revealed. We learn what Harry will have to do to defeat Voldemort. That's all I can think of. Each of these is important, of course, but it's really not much for a 652 page book. I'll bet against #2. Say first time we meet after book 7, the loser buys drinks? There are some indications that things are more complicated than we think. From memory after reading yesterday, Dan hasn't completed his thought here, unfortunately. Jim made the same point (Hi Jim! I deleted your post by accident, or I would be responding to it first). Thinking about it a little more after both your posts, I think you're both right. This probably was a setup by Rowling - something that takes particular strength, I think, from the fact that she has stated that she thinks of this book and the 7th one as really a single, longer book, in which case she'd be maintaining her pattern if we're supposed to be surprised by Snape's innocence at the end. That being said, if it turns out that way, I'll be both happy with Rowling (because it would be a little annoying if Harry was right all along about Snape) and disappointed (because given the way it was set up, it seems to me that Snape could have rescued Dumbledore if he wanted to - he had the opportuntity to take all four Death Eaters by surprise from behind, and we know that Snape is an exceptionally dangerous combatant). But I'll take your bet, Dan, even though I think you'll probably win it :-) I think there's one other point that further strengthens this argument. We know that Harry's father saved Snape's life, we know that a powerful bond is formed when a wizard saves another wizard's life, and we know that Snape repayed James by being indirectly responsible for his murder. What happened to that debt? It has to have been passed along to Harry, and knowing that, it seems unlikely to me that Snape can really have turned. 2. OK - this is really the part of the book I find most interesting. The extent to which these books are, in a sense, didactic is quite remarkable to me, and I really admire both Rowling's skill and her principles. There are a few scenes in particular that, to me, send this message. But let's set the context a little bit. In the earlier books Harry was, in general, a poor, downtrodden kid. I don't think so. He is _the_ Harry Potter almost from the beginning. He is a favorite of the headmaster, of many of the teachers, and is a rare first year Seeker, who is remarkedly good at it, too. He is proclaimed a hero at the end of the first book, and wins glory for his house with his actions. Only Snape, who distrusts the family, and Malfoy and his henchmen are against him. Further, Malfoy is against him because he turned down an invitation to join him very publically. Harry was sticking by ordinary people (a poorer wizzard family and a Mudblood from the the very beginning. That's true, but I think it understates the power of the scenes where Harry is at the Dursley's. There he's clearly the oppressed one, and Rowling (significantly, until this book) is careful to give us a good long taste of what it's like for Harry to live there. Similarly, it may be true that only Snape is against him - but the other teachers really do little to help him, while Snape does a great deal to harm him. So I think it's true that Harry stuck by ordinary people from the beginning - but it's different to do so when your primary identification is as one of the downtrodden, and another when you're the elite. When was he an outcast? He had two great friends, he was a key player on _the_ sports team, etc. It wasn't until book 4 5 that people in general started questioning him because he said that You-Know-Who was back and that he fought him. I think that it's true that he was only an outcast at Hogwarts for some periods. But he was an outcast for _the first 11 years of his life_. And Rowling is careful to make that status clear in all of the earlier books. One of the striking things about the books, really, is how _angry_ they are. You get the feeling that Rowling works herself up into a howling rage at the British class system - something she is able to do despite being a billionaire. That was the biggest insight to come out of Slate's Book Clubs on Harry Potter, I think. I agree that, after setting up a classic prince in hiding scenario, Rowling changes it into what you saidwhich is well done. I think that our disagreement on Snape is tied into the nuances of the moral message we think Rowling is teaching. If Snape turns out to be a hero in the end, I think that it will tied up with a key lesson
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Gautam Mukunda wrote: One of the striking things about the books, really, is how _angry_ they are. You get the feeling that Rowling works herself up into a howling rage at the British class system - something she is able to do despite being a billionaire. I believe she was all but homeless shortly before HPtPS sold, however. That may go a long way to explaining things. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Gautam Mukunda wrote: The big shock was not Dumbledore dying, of course - it's been obvious that that had to happen at the end of Book Six since, well, Book 1, probably. What is a huge shock, of course, is that _Snape_ would be the one who murders him. I am quite impressed by Rowling's skill in setting this up. As in each of her other books, she plays absolutely fair with the reader. We had enough information to figure out (before Harry does) what Malfoy was doing, for example - although I doubt many people will. But in each book Rowling has carefully crafted a structure - we suspect Snape, we hate Snape, we discover that Snape is actually a good guy. By this book, of course, I was so used to that structure that I completely failed to suspect Snape. So when Snape appeared at the last minute - I expected him to rescuce Dumbledore (somehow) or perhaps even die in glorious but futile defense of him. I certainly didn't expect the murder. Yet again, here - Rowling actually provides us with a Voldemort-approved explanation for his behavior, and we knew (from Harry's Occlumency lessons) that Snape was a half-blood - although I don't recall _anyone_ suggesting Snape as the Half-Blood Prince, and it certainly didn't occur to me while I was reading. Very enjoyable analysis, Gautam. The plot was defintely slower than usual because of all the revelations/memories/ backstory (which, as I said, improve the previous ones. A dab bit of retconning.). But I must quibble with one bit: How on earth can you claim that we could've figured out Malfoy's plot? We knew that there was a plot, yes, and that it would involve smuggling past the security (here's an interesting and timely parallel: for all the endless cameras and paranoid signs I saw in London, the bombers *still* got through handily, just as Malfoy and the Deatheaters did with the endless reams of security 'round Hogwarts.), and that two large objects would be involved, but we had no information suggesting that the pair of objects would be the key to circumvention. Even stretching Harry's observation that the security would ignore poison in a bottle doesn't lead us to all of Malfoy's plot, and most definitely not to a pair of space-twisting chests or whatevers as the mechanism, esp. a pair of chests which have never been mentioned before (IMO... I could have missed a reference or two. Correct me here if I'm wrong please.) And I felt very annoyed when the Prince turned out to be Snape rather than Voldemort. I feel a little cheated at such dishonesty- one expected the Prince to be actually a prince, no? ~Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
- Original Message - From: Maru Dubshinki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 10:57 PM Subject: Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3 Spoiler Space Returned And I felt very annoyed when the Prince turned out to be Snape rather than Voldemort. I feel a little cheated at such dishonesty- one expected the Prince to be actually a prince, no? I knew from the very start that Voldermort was not the Prince. There was a big clue before the book came out. (Rowling said he wasn't.) :-) Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Half-Blood Prince (No spoilers)
Just finished - I got it at 8:50am this morning. It's dazzling. Rowling gets better with each book - it's just phenomenal. I might post more later...still processing it. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Half-Blood Prince (No spoilers)
Gautam Mukunda wrote: Just finished - I got it at 8:50am this morning. It's dazzling. Rowling gets better with each book - it's just phenomenal. I might post more later...still processing it. I'm dealing with having had only 5 hours' sleep -- got my copy not too long after midnight (I think I had the book in my hand at about 12:25), then had to go to the grocery store, and then put away everything when I finally got home around 2AM. But it was well worth it -- I ran into someone from high school! We spent over an hour on catch-up. I also knew her mom and her older sister, and she let me know what was going on with them. (I've been totally out of touch with people I knew in that part of the country since my mom moved over 6 years ago.) Now I just have to hold up long enough for my lunch to get here, eat it, and then maybe I can nap a bit. Oh, and I've got over 100 pages left in the book I want to finish before starting HBP. :) Normally that wouldn't take too long, but today isn't normally. Julia p.s. I have a link or two about HP in general that I may post later ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Half-Blood Prince (No spoilers)
Isn't this book something like 600pgs or so? And people are ALREADY done?!?! I read The Postman in about 8.5 hours, but that was doing nothing except reading (with bathroom breaks and lunch). I can't imagine having the time to sit and read a book of that length in one day... Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: Esci's BMP-1 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.16/50 - Release Date: 7/15/2005 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Half-Blood Prince (No spoilers)
--- Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read The Postman in about 8.5 hours, but that was doing nothing except reading (with bathroom breaks and lunch). I can't imagine having the time to sit and read a book of that length in one day... Damon. 4 hours 20 minutes on the dot - not too long a stretch, given that it was a Saturday morning. Normally I would have gone to the gym, but I knew that wasn't going to happen with a new Harry Potter novel out, so that's really all it cost me. I'll do a longer session this evening instead. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Half-Blood Prince (No spoilers)
Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read The Postman in about 8.5 hours, but that was doing nothing except reading (with bathroom breaks and lunch). I can't imagine having the time to sit and read a book of that length in one day... Damon. 4 hours 20 minutes on the dot - not too long a stretch, given that it was a Saturday morning. Normally I would have gone to the gym, but I knew that wasn't going to happen with a new Harry Potter novel out, so that's really all it cost me. I'll do a longer session this evening instead. That's 260 minutes to read a 652-page book. I'd call you a fast reader, is what I would do. :) Julia and it's 30 chapters, and that's about all I can say about it at this point, besides what would be totally obvious if you saw a copy sitting in the store but didn't pick it up ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
