date:20201215

On 12/15/20 6:30 PM, R C wrote:
> 
> On 12/15/20 3:04 PM, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>>
>> If you want a RHEL clone, that's fine.  There will be one available.
>> Someone will make one.
> 
> Once IBM owns it?  You think?  They allowed cloning once ..  a long time
> ago.
> 

How many people have to tell you this had nothing to do with IBM?  You
sure have a lot of inside information.


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

On 12/15/20 6:12 PM, Joshua Kramer wrote:
>> I don't think there will be a course change either, but for different
>> reasons. The motivation isn't "cashing/selling out". It's... actually the
>> stated motivation
>> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q2
> 
> First, I will note that I think the idea of creating *a version of*
> CentOS that is called "Stream", with the intent that it leads RHEL by
> a bit, is a GREAT idea, for exactly the stated reasons!
> 
> There's one problem I have with this asserted motivation.  Stream is
> not being done as *a version of* CentOS.  It is being done as *THE*
> CentOS, which means you're discontinuing point releases.  As far as
> "maintaining CentOS point releases to follow RHEL"- this is what is
> being discontinued.  How much money, in developer time and other
> incidentals, does this cost RedHat per year?  Of course this is a
> proprietary number.  But let's imagine that this number is $250k per
> year.  Out of what was it, about $433M of profit (2019)?  So it would
> cost RedHat 0.06% of profit to hire more developers to keep issuing
> CentOS point releases.
> 
> What does RedHat "buy" in return for spending 0.06% of its profit on
> maintaining point releases?
> -Community trust and goodwill.  Those members of the community that
> cannot afford RedHat licenses for whatever reason still know that the
> #1 player in the Linux marketplace still has their back.  Then when
> those folks move on to enterprises that can afford RH licensing (and
> in some cases demand it), will select RedHat because of this trust and
> goodwill.  They will be highly likely to recommend other RedHat
> products- since it all "works together" and they'll know RHEL (i.e.
> CentOS) well.  Also note that this trust and goodwill means
> "convenience", even within enterprises that have a large budget with
> RedHat.  If I have a project and I want to spin up 100 OS instances
> just for the heck of it, I can.  I don't need to ask anyone, I don't
> need to reserve or download any entitlement key files.  I don't need
> to debug weird problems when entitlement key files don't work.
> -Control of part of the ecosystem.  Those companies that build their
> products to run on RHEL (or in RHEL containers) are able to (and
> encouraged to) certify those products on RHEL because they are able to
> use CentOS.
> 
> But more to the point, what does RedHat LOSE by saving 0.06% of its
> profit?  The damage to community trust and goodwill far exceeds the
> gains that would be realized if the status quo were kept in place.
> Yes, it's true that many of the folks who used CentOS would never turn
> into paying customers.  But due to this situation, you have thousands
> of system administrators who are actively looking to completely
> abandon the RedHat ecosystem altogether.  When it comes time to
> recommend products... they aren't going to recommend RHEL.  They
> aren't going to recommend JBoss, or Fuse, or 3Scale API management.
> It's clear that RedHat can't be trusted with some parts of its
> portfolio, so why should we trust ANY of its products?

So don't trust them.  Move to something else if you think something is
better.

> 
> If it is 100% factually correct that the ONLY motivation for killing
> point releases is the stated motivation, then it's just a simple
> matter of finding a spare $250k (or whatever that cost is) from the
> almost-half-a-billion dollar corporate coin purse.  The return on
> investment has been, and will continue to be, immeasurable... 
$250K is not even close.  That is one employee, when you also take into
account unemployment insurance, HR, medical insurance etc.  now multiply
that by 8.  Now, outfit those 8 employees to work from home .. all over
the world, different countries, different laws.

 .. THEN buy 30 machines minimum (servers, not workstations) for
building and testing, buy a service contract for those 30 machines, host
the bandwidth required to sync out to 600 worldwide servers.

We need all the CI machines .. that is a bunch of blade servers for
that.  They need service contacts too.

In any event it doesn't matter.  The decision is made. If people don't
want to use CentOS Stream, then don't.  The decision is not changing.
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Re: [CentOS] Blog article: CentOS is NOT dead



On 12/15/20 3:04 PM, Johnny Hughes wrote:


If you want a RHEL clone, that's fine.  There will be one available.
Someone will make one.


Once IBM owns it?  You think?  They allowed cloning once ..  a long time 
ago.







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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

2020-12-15 Thread Joshua Kramer

> I don't think there will be a course change either, but for different
> reasons. The motivation isn't "cashing/selling out". It's... actually the
> stated motivation
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q2

First, I will note that I think the idea of creating *a version of*
CentOS that is called "Stream", with the intent that it leads RHEL by
a bit, is a GREAT idea, for exactly the stated reasons!

There's one problem I have with this asserted motivation.  Stream is
not being done as *a version of* CentOS.  It is being done as *THE*
CentOS, which means you're discontinuing point releases.  As far as
"maintaining CentOS point releases to follow RHEL"- this is what is
being discontinued.  How much money, in developer time and other
incidentals, does this cost RedHat per year?  Of course this is a
proprietary number.  But let's imagine that this number is $250k per
year.  Out of what was it, about $433M of profit (2019)?  So it would
cost RedHat 0.06% of profit to hire more developers to keep issuing
CentOS point releases.

What does RedHat "buy" in return for spending 0.06% of its profit on
maintaining point releases?
-Community trust and goodwill.  Those members of the community that
cannot afford RedHat licenses for whatever reason still know that the
#1 player in the Linux marketplace still has their back.  Then when
those folks move on to enterprises that can afford RH licensing (and
in some cases demand it), will select RedHat because of this trust and
goodwill.  They will be highly likely to recommend other RedHat
products- since it all "works together" and they'll know RHEL (i.e.
CentOS) well.  Also note that this trust and goodwill means
"convenience", even within enterprises that have a large budget with
RedHat.  If I have a project and I want to spin up 100 OS instances
just for the heck of it, I can.  I don't need to ask anyone, I don't
need to reserve or download any entitlement key files.  I don't need
to debug weird problems when entitlement key files don't work.
-Control of part of the ecosystem.  Those companies that build their
products to run on RHEL (or in RHEL containers) are able to (and
encouraged to) certify those products on RHEL because they are able to
use CentOS.

But more to the point, what does RedHat LOSE by saving 0.06% of its
profit?  The damage to community trust and goodwill far exceeds the
gains that would be realized if the status quo were kept in place.
Yes, it's true that many of the folks who used CentOS would never turn
into paying customers.  But due to this situation, you have thousands
of system administrators who are actively looking to completely
abandon the RedHat ecosystem altogether.  When it comes time to
recommend products... they aren't going to recommend RHEL.  They
aren't going to recommend JBoss, or Fuse, or 3Scale API management.
It's clear that RedHat can't be trusted with some parts of its
portfolio, so why should we trust ANY of its products?

If it is 100% factually correct that the ONLY motivation for killing
point releases is the stated motivation, then it's just a simple
matter of finding a spare $250k (or whatever that cost is) from the
almost-half-a-billion dollar corporate coin purse.  The return on
investment has been, and will continue to be, immeasurable... IF y'all
do damage control ASAP.

--JK

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 12:06 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 01:48:21AM -0700, R C wrote:
> > I think that Centos, being that close to RHEL, should have had a
> > licensing scheme for personal use, small business use, just to make
> > things 'fair'.
>
> So, again, please stay tuned. Not for licensing schemes for CentOS, but for
> programs for these use cases for RHEL. See 
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q10
> and please really do mail centos-questi...@redhat.com with your use cases.
> This is answered by humans designing these programs, not by sales.
>
>
> > I don't think their (IBM/RHEL) course is going to change though,
> > redhat going "commercial" has been going on for a decade and a half
> > or so, and it looks like initial investors have a desire
> > cashing/selling out at this point.
>
> I don't think there will be a course change either, but for different
> reasons. The motivation isn't "cashing/selling out". It's... actually the
> stated motivation
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q2
>
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader
> ___
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Re: [CentOS] Blog article: CentOS is NOT dead

On 12/15/20 4:11 PM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 5:04 PM Johnny Hughes wrote:

On 12/14/20 8:25 AM, James Pearson wrote:

Nicolas Kovacs

Here's an interesting read which makes a point for CentOS Stream:

https://freedomben.medium.com/centos-is-not-dead-please-stop-saying-it-is-at-least-until-you-read-this-4b26b5c44877

tl;dr: Communication about Stream was BAD, but Stream itself might be a

good

thing. Here's why.

As others have said, it misses the _really_ important bit about the

traditional CentOS model which is to follow the RHEL ~10 year life cycle>

It doesn't matter how good/rock solid/whatever CentOS Stream turns out

to be, but if it only has a 5 year life cycle for each major release, then
it no good to me (and I suspect many others)

There is a 2 year overlap with the next version of stream as well .. in
this case CentOS Stream 9. How long is Debian or Ubuntu LTS maintained
for free?

5 years may not be long enough for you .. but it certainly pretty long.
And I am TRYING to get that extended. I may not be successful, we'll
have to see.

The article also mentions "CentOS will no longer be old, crusty, and

barely alive, trailing RHEL by months at times" - then why didn't Redhat
put resources into CentOS to improve that?
Do you have any idea how much money Red Hat is paying to maintain
CentOS. And they are maintaining CentOS 7, even now, until 2024. There
are dozens of machines and several administrators to maintain them.

Redhat must have known, that if they killed off traditional CentOS, then

users will simply go elsewhere for a RHEL rebuild ?

If you chose not to use CentOS Stream, that is up to you. What is the
OS of your TV set. What is the firmware of your computer. Those things
are now pretty much irrelevant and commoditized.

At some point the underlying OS is going to be much less important and
the important part will be the layered parts that contain your apps and
not the OS Layer.

If you want a RHEL clone, that's fine. There will be one available.
Someone will make one.

The real and complete vision of what CentOS Stream will become will not
be compolete until around the end of QTR1 2021. If you chose not to try
it, that is up to you. I truly think Stream will be a much better and
more quickly fixed OS when everything is in place.

I don't expect you to answer Johnny, but why didn't Red Hat wait until
Stream was "complete'" or ready, or whatever.

I know the above wasn't directed at me, but maybe it wasn't as much
redhat wanting to sell, but IBM wanting to buy (there is a difference).

IBM's revenue has steadily and steeply been going down, it had quite a
few train wrecks, topped off with plane crashes. IBM is still a very
large company, and still makes A LOT of money but for a large part with
a bunch of dinosaurs that they are stuck with, and someone spotted a meteor.

I agree that Redhat really screwed up this announcement - they would

have got a lot more kudos if they had announced CentOS Stream to exist
along with keeping the current traditional CentOS ...
Again .. pay 8 or more people the going rate to just maintain CentOS.
Buy the dozens of machines and pay for the datacenter, bandwidth,
hardware services for machines, etc. This is very expensive. Maybe the
company you work for will do that out of the goodness of their heart?

I guess I don't understand. Isn't Red Hat going to pay for CentOS Stream
engineers, hardware, etc? How much more would it be to use them to build
point releases? Won't much of the personnel and infrastructure be the same?
Is Red Hat going to just get rid of all the CentOS resources? I don't
understand why the resources maintaining CentOS 7, and 8 Stream, can't be
used to build CentOS 8.4/5 etc?

As bummed out as I am about this whole situation, and believe me i am.

But even I can clearly see that Red Hat has gone above and beyond the
requirements of open source software and I am quite tired of all the
'they should be happy to pay several million dollars a year to give away
a working product." If it is so easy or cheap to do .. then you guys do
it. I did it for 17 years. Much of my time was on top of a normal 40
hour work week.

Again, we all appreciate it. It's not you we're mad at.

Red Hat contributes to every major upstream project .. they maintain
several very key major projects. They let employees contribute to
projects and pay for them to work on upstream projects. how many things
do they have to do for free?

James Pearson

I understand all your points, and I get it, but the fact is Red Hat
committed to the roadmap (c.f.
https://blog.centos.org/2019/07/ibm-red-hat-and-centos/) and now they're
abruptly breaking a promise. One that is affecting a lot of already
overstressed and underpaid people. If they said this would happen at the
beginning of CentOS 8, or better CentOS 9, then fine. But now?

It sucks big time.

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Re: [CentOS] Blog article: CentOS is NOT dead

2020-12-15 Thread Tom Bishop

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 5:35 PM Johnny Hughes  wrote:

> On 12/15/20 5:11 PM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 5:04 PM Johnny Hughes  wrote:
> >
> >> On 12/14/20 8:25 AM, James Pearson wrote:
> >>> Nicolas Kovacs
> 
>  Here's an interesting read which makes a point for CentOS Stream:
> 
> 
> >>
> https://freedomben.medium.com/centos-is-not-dead-please-stop-saying-it-is-at-least-until-you-read-this-4b26b5c44877
> 
>  tl;dr: Communication about Stream was BAD, but Stream itself might be
> a
> >> good
>  thing. Here's why.
> >>>
> >>> As others have said, it misses the _really_ important bit about the
> >> traditional CentOS model which is to follow the RHEL ~10 year life
> cycle>
> >>> It doesn't matter how good/rock solid/whatever CentOS Stream turns out
> >> to be, but if it only has a 5 year life cycle for each major release,
> then
> >> it no good to me (and I suspect many others)
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> There is a 2 year overlap with the next version of stream as well .. in
> >> this case CentOS Stream 9.  How long is Debian or Ubuntu LTS maintained
> >> for free?
> >>
> >> 5 years may not be long enough for you .. but it certainly pretty long.
> >>  And I am TRYING to get that extended.  I may not be successful, we'll
> >> have to see.
> >>
> >>> The article also mentions "CentOS will no longer be old, crusty, and
> >> barely alive, trailing RHEL by months at times" - then why didn't Redhat
> >> put resources into CentOS to improve that?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Do you have any idea how much money Red Hat is paying to maintain
> >> CentOS.  And they are maintaining CentOS 7, even now, until 2024.  There
> >> are dozens of machines and several administrators to maintain them.
> >>
> >>> Redhat must have known, that if they killed off traditional CentOS,
> then
> >> users will simply go elsewhere for a RHEL rebuild ?
> >>
> >> If you chose not to use CentOS Stream, that is up to you.  What is the
> >> OS of your TV set.  What is the firmware of your computer.  Those things
> >> are now pretty much irrelevant and commoditized.
> >>
> >> At some point the underlying OS is going to be much less important and
> >> the important part will be the layered parts that contain your apps and
> >> not the OS Layer.
> >>
> >> If you want a RHEL clone, that's fine.  There will be one available.
> >> Someone will make one.
> >>
> >> The real and complete vision of what CentOS Stream will become will not
> >> be compolete until around the end of QTR1 2021.  If you chose not to try
> >> it, that is up to you.   I truly think Stream will be a much better and
> >> more quickly fixed OS when everything is in place.
> >>
> >
> > I don't expect you to answer Johnny, but why didn't Red Hat wait until
> > Stream was "complete'" or ready, or whatever.
>
> I have no idea.  I am not saying I completely agree with the timing or
> the way this went down.  But we are where we are now.  I still think
> CentOS Stream is as good as any other "Enterprise" distro out there.  I
> think iti si just as good as Debian and/or Ubuntu.
>
>

This is the problem they created, your right stream is "just as good as the
other Enterprise distro's out there." But that is part of the issue, since
your just as good and no longer have the long support cycles then I just as
well spend time porting it to Debian etc.  The way that they did it just
leaves a lot of bad faith in anything that RH has to say now, at least for
me I have lost all trust in anything they have to say. I mean you know it's
bad when people are talking about migrating to Oracle, that's pretty ironic
of all things.

I've been on the list since 2007 and again I appreciate all the hard work
over the years that you and the others have given to the project, it's just
a shame that RH decided to take the path that it taken.

>
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Re: [CentOS] Blog article: CentOS is NOT dead

On 12/15/20 5:11 PM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 5:04 PM Johnny Hughes  wrote:
> 
>> On 12/14/20 8:25 AM, James Pearson wrote:
>>> Nicolas Kovacs

 Here's an interesting read which makes a point for CentOS Stream:


>> https://freedomben.medium.com/centos-is-not-dead-please-stop-saying-it-is-at-least-until-you-read-this-4b26b5c44877

 tl;dr: Communication about Stream was BAD, but Stream itself might be a
>> good
 thing. Here's why.
>>>
>>> As others have said, it misses the _really_ important bit about the
>> traditional CentOS model which is to follow the RHEL ~10 year life cycle>
>>> It doesn't matter how good/rock solid/whatever CentOS Stream turns out
>> to be, but if it only has a 5 year life cycle for each major release, then
>> it no good to me (and I suspect many others)
>>>
>>
>>
>> There is a 2 year overlap with the next version of stream as well .. in
>> this case CentOS Stream 9.  How long is Debian or Ubuntu LTS maintained
>> for free?
>>
>> 5 years may not be long enough for you .. but it certainly pretty long.
>>  And I am TRYING to get that extended.  I may not be successful, we'll
>> have to see.
>>
>>> The article also mentions "CentOS will no longer be old, crusty, and
>> barely alive, trailing RHEL by months at times" - then why didn't Redhat
>> put resources into CentOS to improve that?
>>>
>>
>> Do you have any idea how much money Red Hat is paying to maintain
>> CentOS.  And they are maintaining CentOS 7, even now, until 2024.  There
>> are dozens of machines and several administrators to maintain them.
>>
>>> Redhat must have known, that if they killed off traditional CentOS, then
>> users will simply go elsewhere for a RHEL rebuild ?
>>
>> If you chose not to use CentOS Stream, that is up to you.  What is the
>> OS of your TV set.  What is the firmware of your computer.  Those things
>> are now pretty much irrelevant and commoditized.
>>
>> At some point the underlying OS is going to be much less important and
>> the important part will be the layered parts that contain your apps and
>> not the OS Layer.
>>
>> If you want a RHEL clone, that's fine.  There will be one available.
>> Someone will make one.
>>
>> The real and complete vision of what CentOS Stream will become will not
>> be compolete until around the end of QTR1 2021.  If you chose not to try
>> it, that is up to you.   I truly think Stream will be a much better and
>> more quickly fixed OS when everything is in place.
>>
> 
> I don't expect you to answer Johnny, but why didn't Red Hat wait until
> Stream was "complete'" or ready, or whatever.

I have no idea.  I am not saying I completely agree with the timing or
the way this went down.  But we are where we are now.  I still think
CentOS Stream is as good as any other "Enterprise" distro out there.  I
think iti si just as good as Debian and/or Ubuntu.

You guys keep calling it beta .. it is not.

The RHEL team is not grabbing brand new software (like the do in
Rawhide, for example) and trying to roll that into RHEL.  They are going
to do one of three type of updates.

1) A security update

2) A bugfix update.

3) An Enhancement update.

For #1 and #2 .. you want those rolled in and you want them rolled in
ASAP.  RHEAs do not make up that many of the updates.  You are getting
these after QA testing a couple months early at most.

Yes, it will not exactly match RHEL .. but how different is 8.2 to 8.3
.. what things run in 8.2 and not 8.3?  That is the kind of updates you
will be getting.


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Re: [CentOS] Blog article: CentOS is NOT dead

2020-12-15 Thread Phelps, Matthew

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 5:04 PM Johnny Hughes  wrote:

> On 12/14/20 8:25 AM, James Pearson wrote:
> > Nicolas Kovacs
> >>
> >> Here's an interesting read which makes a point for CentOS Stream:
> >>
> >>
> https://freedomben.medium.com/centos-is-not-dead-please-stop-saying-it-is-at-least-until-you-read-this-4b26b5c44877
> >>
> >> tl;dr: Communication about Stream was BAD, but Stream itself might be a
> good
> >> thing. Here's why.
> >
> > As others have said, it misses the _really_ important bit about the
> traditional CentOS model which is to follow the RHEL ~10 year life cycle>
> > It doesn't matter how good/rock solid/whatever CentOS Stream turns out
> to be, but if it only has a 5 year life cycle for each major release, then
> it no good to me (and I suspect many others)
> >
>
>
> There is a 2 year overlap with the next version of stream as well .. in
> this case CentOS Stream 9.  How long is Debian or Ubuntu LTS maintained
> for free?
>
> 5 years may not be long enough for you .. but it certainly pretty long.
>  And I am TRYING to get that extended.  I may not be successful, we'll
> have to see.
>
> > The article also mentions "CentOS will no longer be old, crusty, and
> barely alive, trailing RHEL by months at times" - then why didn't Redhat
> put resources into CentOS to improve that?
> >
>
> Do you have any idea how much money Red Hat is paying to maintain
> CentOS.  And they are maintaining CentOS 7, even now, until 2024.  There
> are dozens of machines and several administrators to maintain them.
>
> > Redhat must have known, that if they killed off traditional CentOS, then
> users will simply go elsewhere for a RHEL rebuild ?
>
> If you chose not to use CentOS Stream, that is up to you.  What is the
> OS of your TV set.  What is the firmware of your computer.  Those things
> are now pretty much irrelevant and commoditized.
>
> At some point the underlying OS is going to be much less important and
> the important part will be the layered parts that contain your apps and
> not the OS Layer.
>
> If you want a RHEL clone, that's fine.  There will be one available.
> Someone will make one.
>
> The real and complete vision of what CentOS Stream will become will not
> be compolete until around the end of QTR1 2021.  If you chose not to try
> it, that is up to you.   I truly think Stream will be a much better and
> more quickly fixed OS when everything is in place.
>

I don't expect you to answer Johnny, but why didn't Red Hat wait until
Stream was "complete'" or ready, or whatever.



> >
> > I agree that Redhat really screwed up this announcement - they would
> have got a lot more kudos if they had announced CentOS Stream to exist
> along with keeping the current traditional CentOS ...
> >
>
> Again .. pay 8 or more people the going rate to just maintain CentOS.
> Buy the dozens of machines and pay for the datacenter, bandwidth,
> hardware services for machines, etc.  This is very expensive.  Maybe the
> company you work for will do that out of the goodness of their heart?
>
>
I guess I don't understand. Isn't Red Hat going to pay for CentOS Stream
engineers, hardware, etc? How much more would it be to use them to build
point releases? Won't much of the personnel and infrastructure be the same?
Is Red Hat going to just get rid of all the CentOS resources? I don't
understand why the resources maintaining CentOS 7, and 8 Stream, can't be
used to build CentOS 8.4/5 etc?

As bummed out as I am about this whole situation, and believe me i am.
> But even I can clearly see that Red Hat has gone above and beyond the
> requirements of open source software and I am quite tired of all the
> 'they should be happy to pay several million dollars a year to give away
> a working product."  If it is so easy or cheap to do .. then you guys do
> it.  I did it for 17 years.  Much of my time was on top of a normal 40
> hour work week.
>
>
Again, we all appreciate it. It's not you we're mad at.


> Red Hat contributes to every major upstream project .. they maintain
> several very key major projects.  They let employees contribute to
> projects and pay for them to work on upstream projects.  how many things
> do they have to do for free?
>
> > James Pearson
>
>
>
>
I understand all your points, and I get it, but the fact is Red Hat
committed to the roadmap (c.f.
https://blog.centos.org/2019/07/ibm-red-hat-and-centos/) and now they're
abruptly breaking a promise. One that is affecting a lot of already
overstressed and underpaid people. If they said this would happen at the
beginning of CentOS 8, or better CentOS 9, then fine. But now?

It sucks big time.

-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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Re: [CentOS] Blog article: CentOS is NOT dead

On 12/14/20 8:25 AM, James Pearson wrote:
> Nicolas Kovacs 
>>
>> Here's an interesting read which makes a point for CentOS Stream:
>>
>> https://freedomben.medium.com/centos-is-not-dead-please-stop-saying-it-is-at-least-until-you-read-this-4b26b5c44877
>>
>> tl;dr: Communication about Stream was BAD, but Stream itself might be a good
>> thing. Here's why.
> 
> As others have said, it misses the _really_ important bit about the 
> traditional CentOS model which is to follow the RHEL ~10 year life cycle>
> It doesn't matter how good/rock solid/whatever CentOS Stream turns out to be, 
> but if it only has a 5 year life cycle for each major release, then it no 
> good to me (and I suspect many others)
>

There is a 2 year overlap with the next version of stream as well .. in
this case CentOS Stream 9.  How long is Debian or Ubuntu LTS maintained
for free?

5 years may not be long enough for you .. but it certainly pretty long.
 And I am TRYING to get that extended.  I may not be successful, we'll
have to see.

> The article also mentions "CentOS will no longer be old, crusty, and barely 
> alive, trailing RHEL by months at times" - then why didn't Redhat put 
> resources into CentOS to improve that?
> 

Do you have any idea how much money Red Hat is paying to maintain
CentOS.  And they are maintaining CentOS 7, even now, until 2024.  There
are dozens of machines and several administrators to maintain them.

> Redhat must have known, that if they killed off traditional CentOS, then 
> users will simply go elsewhere for a RHEL rebuild ?

If you chose not to use CentOS Stream, that is up to you.  What is the
OS of your TV set.  What is the firmware of your computer.  Those things
are now pretty much irrelevant and commoditized.

At some point the underlying OS is going to be much less important and
the important part will be the layered parts that contain your apps and
not the OS Layer.

If you want a RHEL clone, that's fine.  There will be one available.
Someone will make one.

The real and complete vision of what CentOS Stream will become will not
be compolete until around the end of QTR1 2021.  If you chose not to try
it, that is up to you.   I truly think Stream will be a much better and
more quickly fixed OS when everything is in place.

> 
> I agree that Redhat really screwed up this announcement - they would have got 
> a lot more kudos if they had announced CentOS Stream to exist along with 
> keeping the current traditional CentOS ...
> 

Again .. pay 8 or more people the going rate to just maintain CentOS.
Buy the dozens of machines and pay for the datacenter, bandwidth,
hardware services for machines, etc.  This is very expensive.  Maybe the
company you work for will do that out of the goodness of their heart?

As bummed out as I am about this whole situation, and believe me i am.
But even I can clearly see that Red Hat has gone above and beyond the
requirements of open source software and I am quite tired of all the
'they should be happy to pay several million dollars a year to give away
a working product."  If it is so easy or cheap to do .. then you guys do
it.  I did it for 17 years.  Much of my time was on top of a normal 40
hour work week.

Red Hat contributes to every major upstream project .. they maintain
several very key major projects.  They let employees contribute to
projects and pay for them to work on upstream projects.  how many things
do they have to do for free?

> James Pearson

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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

2020-12-15 Thread Nicolas Kovacs

Le 15/12/2020 à 17:04, Ruslanas Gžibovskis a écrit :
> But free flag is in uncertain situation.
> 
> And I have been working with UBK or how is shortened their unbreakable
> kernel... No good ;)) we managed to break it ;)) and recover DB.

I'm not sure you understand what you're saying.

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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?


On 15/12/2020 18:35, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 06:21:17PM +, Phil Perry wrote:

thanks to bring this up - this is a big issue. How could we
communicate this? Bugzilla? Anyone listing here?


Here you go:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1908047

At the moment the only way we have to feed back issues is to file
bugs against Stream (which is actually under RHEL8 on bugzilla) as
it is not currently possible to submit fixes.


Thanks for filing that. I notice that Josh moved it to the "distribution"
component rather than DNF -- that makes sense because it's not really an
issue with the DNF package itself.



Absolutely. Pretty simple to fix so lets see what happens :-)


The CentOS team tells me that this is a good place to file anything similar
that comes up.



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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

2020-12-15 Thread John R. Dennison

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 10:45:43AM -0700, R C wrote:
> 
> I didn't know that fact, but hey that could be a pretty cool tribute.

It was in Greg's announcement of Rocky Linux.  Right up near the top
if I recall correctly.






John
-- 
Time is the coin of your life.  It is the only coin you have, and only you
can determine how it will be spent.  Be careful lest you let other people
spend it for you.

-- Carl Sandburg (1878-1967), American poet, historian, and novelist


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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 06:21:17PM +, Phil Perry wrote:
> >thanks to bring this up - this is a big issue. How could we
> >communicate this? Bugzilla? Anyone listing here?
> 
> Here you go:
> 
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1908047
> 
> At the moment the only way we have to feed back issues is to file
> bugs against Stream (which is actually under RHEL8 on bugzilla) as
> it is not currently possible to submit fixes.

Thanks for filing that. I notice that Josh moved it to the "distribution"
component rather than DNF -- that makes sense because it's not really an
issue with the DNF package itself.

The CentOS team tells me that this is a good place to file anything similar
that comes up.

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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?




On 12/15/20 11:15 AM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

On 12/15/20 5:58 PM, R C wrote:

When was the last time a large company (think IBM, Sun, Novell Netware,
Oracle) had a great idea to create or take over an OS, or a community
only ending up in a situation that only almost killed them. (Yeah MS,
but they figured out that giving it away for next to nothing for
residential/educational use is actually securing their market share in
commercial/government/Education etc etc etc.)

10-15 years ago BSA sued a person using pirated Windows (and Office?) at
home. Microsoft representative was a witness AGAINST BSA, so that there
is no precedent that private users of pirated software can be sued,
because out of fear majority of those using pirated software would stop
installing and using MS software and they would recommend software of
competition (free if possible).

If MS did not "fail to implement" effective protection from pirating
Windows and Office, their market share would be at least halved, and in
countries with low income they would barely exist.



What I meant was that MS basically, for the longest while, had their OS 
pre-installed on computers sold, so it "felt" free to the buyer, it came 
with the machine. Universities and colleges did receive bulk licenses 
and .NET pretty much for free in their 'Developer Programs' and also 
have students keep using it. That "faillure to implement" obviously was 
a marketing move indeed, as was students "allowing" to keep using it on 
their laptops after graduation.


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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?


On 15/12/2020 17:51, Leon Fauster via CentOS wrote:

Am 15.12.20 um 18:07 schrieb Phil Perry:
3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each 
package in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back 
broken packages.


thanks to bring this up - this is a big issue. How could we communicate 
this? Bugzilla? Anyone listing here?





Here you go:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1908047

At the moment the only way we have to feed back issues is to file bugs 
against Stream (which is actually under RHEL8 on bugzilla) as it is not 
currently possible to submit fixes.


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

2020-12-15 Thread Tom Bishop

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 12:07 PM Matthew Miller  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 11:24:03AM -0600, Tom Bishop wrote:
> > I know you and other RHEL folks keep saying this about cashing out etc,
> but
> > they could have kept stream and Centos stable at the same time but chose
> > not to. Ya know, if it walks like a duck and quacks as a duck...who knows
> > maybe this goes down as one of the best decisions ever for RH but I think
> > its going to hurt them in more ways then they ever thought about.
>
> As I've also said before, I have no special insight into how RH and the
> CentOS board came to this timeline, but I _am_ inclined to believe that the
> motivation is the one that they give: they want to focus attention and
> resources. Look at CloudLinux saying that they plan to invest a million
> dollars a year into doing their rebuild. It's easy to _say_ "Red Hat could
> easily have done both".
>
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader
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>

Please, yeah poor, poor Redhat, they are struggling these days, *cough*
they needed to do this in order to survive. I thought it didn't have
anything to do with cashing in. Really it's there choice if the decide to
run it into the ground or not, to many bean counters get involved and it
all becomes about making money, nowhere close to the original ideals for
the company when it was started.

>
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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

2020-12-15 Thread Ljubomir Ljubojevic

On 12/15/20 5:58 PM, R C wrote:
> When was the last time a large company (think IBM, Sun, Novell Netware,
> Oracle) had a great idea to create or take over an OS, or a community
> only ending up in a situation that only almost killed them. (Yeah MS,
> but they figured out that giving it away for next to nothing for
> residential/educational use is actually securing their market share in
> commercial/government/Education etc etc etc.)

10-15 years ago BSA sued a person using pirated Windows (and Office?) at
home. Microsoft representative was a witness AGAINST BSA, so that there
is no precedent that private users of pirated software can be sued,
because out of fear majority of those using pirated software would stop
installing and using MS software and they would recommend software of
competition (free if possible).

If MS did not "fail to implement" effective protection from pirating
Windows and Office, their market share would be at least halved, and in
countries with low income they would barely exist.

-- 
Ljubomir Ljubojevic
(Love is in the Air)
PL Computers
Serbia, Europe

StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future



On 12/15/20 11:07 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 11:24:03AM -0600, Tom Bishop wrote:

I know you and other RHEL folks keep saying this about cashing out etc, but
they could have kept stream and Centos stable at the same time but chose
not to. Ya know, if it walks like a duck and quacks as a duck...who knows
maybe this goes down as one of the best decisions ever for RH but I think
its going to hurt them in more ways then they ever thought about.

As I've also said before, I have no special insight into how RH and the
CentOS board came to this timeline, but I _am_ inclined to believe that the
motivation is the one that they give: they want to focus attention and
resources.


yup, I think you are right, they'll pay attention and focus on resources 
...




  Look at CloudLinux saying that they plan to invest a million
dollars a year


WOW  a million a year, that is amazing, that will definitely get 
things going, with that kind of  money you can hire 3 HS students and 
two college drop outs, that's


how MS started too.



  into doing their rebuild. It's easy to _say_ "Red Hat could
easily have done both".



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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

2020-12-15 Thread Mauricio Tavares

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 12:53 PM Matti Pulkkinen  wrote:
>
> Ruslanas Gžibovskis kirjoitti 15.12.2020 klo 18.04:
> > I think Peter have already spent some time and read around agreement and so
> > on. So the price is understandable. And really, everyone need to keep in
> > mind that anyone can change their licence any time.
> >
> > If You ask personally me, Matti, I do not see point using oracleLinux if
> > can use Rocky/fedora out of cost. Same as I do not see any point in using
> > any derivative of Debian if you just can add additional repo and install
> > missing package...
> >
> > CentOS was free of charge RedHat Flag. And now their banner/flag do not
> > look so trustful in free area... I still would trust paid version,
> > especially when there is no-cost licence. Also you can connect to RH sales
> > and get real goood discounts. If you are a small business in small country.
> >
> > But free flag is in uncertain situation.
> >
> > And I have been working with UBK or how is shortened their unbreakable
> > kernel... No good ;)) we managed to break it ;)) and recover DB.
> >
> > If you really want you always can just look at config file how kernel is
> > made and rebuild it with your additions or exactly same in exact same
> > place. Also take additional blobs and place them where you need... if
> > needed. But you need to understand if that all you really need? Maybe you
> > just need to shorten tcp.fin_wait to 1 sec ;) and it will work as a charm
> > even with 2.6.18... with all unneeded options off, such as kernel modules,
> > usb, sata123...
> >
> > You just need to:
> > su -c 'echo "1" > /proc/enable/brain'
> >
> > Without this module either OS will work.
> >
> > And choosing OS is like choosing your partner, you need to understand, for
> > how long you have same path and why your partner did that move, did partner
> > prepared all that you would have all cases covered with new WoW...
> >
> > Thanks
>
> The main takeaway from this seems to be that your answer to my question
> is "no". Oracle can indeed change their terms if they so wish, and this
> is to be expected for any distro vendor or community. You seemed to be
> insinuating that there is something specifically in Oracle's current
> terms or practices that you find objectionable, but it is reassuring
> that this does not seem to be the case after all.
>
  I think this is a good example of when to see how much you can
make your deployment distro-agnostic. At home I have been trying to
make my ansible playbooks so they can work in both redhat
(specifically centos as there are differences) and debian based
distros. With that said I do know my playbooks to deploy KVM and
docker are a bit weak on the debian side.

> --
> Terveisin / Regards,
> Matti Pulkkinen
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 11:24:03AM -0600, Tom Bishop wrote:
> I know you and other RHEL folks keep saying this about cashing out etc, but
> they could have kept stream and Centos stable at the same time but chose
> not to. Ya know, if it walks like a duck and quacks as a duck...who knows
> maybe this goes down as one of the best decisions ever for RH but I think
> its going to hurt them in more ways then they ever thought about.

As I've also said before, I have no special insight into how RH and the
CentOS board came to this timeline, but I _am_ inclined to believe that the
motivation is the one that they give: they want to focus attention and
resources. Look at CloudLinux saying that they plan to invest a million
dollars a year into doing their rebuild. It's easy to _say_ "Red Hat could
easily have done both".

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

2020-12-15 Thread Matti Pulkkinen


Ruslanas Gžibovskis kirjoitti 15.12.2020 klo 18.04:

I think Peter have already spent some time and read around agreement and so
on. So the price is understandable. And really, everyone need to keep in
mind that anyone can change their licence any time.

If You ask personally me, Matti, I do not see point using oracleLinux if
can use Rocky/fedora out of cost. Same as I do not see any point in using
any derivative of Debian if you just can add additional repo and install
missing package...

CentOS was free of charge RedHat Flag. And now their banner/flag do not
look so trustful in free area... I still would trust paid version,
especially when there is no-cost licence. Also you can connect to RH sales
and get real goood discounts. If you are a small business in small country.

But free flag is in uncertain situation.

And I have been working with UBK or how is shortened their unbreakable
kernel... No good ;)) we managed to break it ;)) and recover DB.

If you really want you always can just look at config file how kernel is
made and rebuild it with your additions or exactly same in exact same
place. Also take additional blobs and place them where you need... if
needed. But you need to understand if that all you really need? Maybe you
just need to shorten tcp.fin_wait to 1 sec ;) and it will work as a charm
even with 2.6.18... with all unneeded options off, such as kernel modules,
usb, sata123...

You just need to:
su -c 'echo "1" > /proc/enable/brain'

Without this module either OS will work.

And choosing OS is like choosing your partner, you need to understand, for
how long you have same path and why your partner did that move, did partner
prepared all that you would have all cases covered with new WoW...

Thanks


The main takeaway from this seems to be that your answer to my question 
is "no". Oracle can indeed change their terms if they so wish, and this 
is to be expected for any distro vendor or community. You seemed to be 
insinuating that there is something specifically in Oracle's current 
terms or practices that you find objectionable, but it is reassuring 
that this does not seem to be the case after all.


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Matti Pulkkinen
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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

2020-12-15 Thread Leon Fauster via CentOS


Am 15.12.20 um 18:07 schrieb Phil Perry:
3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each 
package in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back 
broken packages.


thanks to bring this up - this is a big issue. How could we communicate 
this? Bugzilla? Anyone listing here?


--
Leon
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

2020-12-15 Thread Jon Pruente

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 11:31 AM Phelps, Matthew 
wrote:

> Not to mention the constant barrage of "You just want free Red Hat" and
> "CentOS users are moochers" and "We deserve value from all those CentOS
> users, so we're going to turn them into beta testers for RHEL." I have
> gotten these responses here and on twitter from CentOS and Red Hat
> employees.
>
> So, sorry, but this line about this not being a money grab is an obvious
> crock of excrement.
>

Or the line that they "never promised 2029" and that it "was a mistake".
THey keep trying to make it out as if the lifetime of CentOS was separate
from RHEL. Yet, this interview comes out where Rich Bowen says exactly that
it is, like we all expected it to be.

> First, it's important to understand that the dates that the CentOS
project lists as EOL (End Of Life) dates are, and always have been,
dependent on Red Hat. That is, we can say that CentOS Linux 7 will be EOL
on a particular date, but if the dates around RHEL 7 shift, hypothetically
speaking, then so will those around CentOS Linux 7. That's what happened
with CentOS Linux 8. This decision was made by Red Hat and the CentOS Board.
https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Red_Hat_to_move_focus_away_from_CentOS_in_favour_of_Stream%3B_CentOS_team_discuss_implications_with_Wikinews
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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

2020-12-15 Thread Leon Fauster via CentOS


Am 15.12.20 um 18:22 schrieb Phil Perry:

On 15/12/2020 17:13, Matthew Miller wrote:
On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 05:09:39PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL 
(6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:
3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each 
package in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll 
back broken packages.
Really? I hadn't appreciated that.  How does one the contribute back 
to RH/the community by checking at what point something broke?


I don't know the answer here but it's a good point to raise. In 
Fedora, we

don't keep all updates on our mirrors either, but we _do_ make them
accessible forever from our build system
(https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/), and there's a command-line 
tool for

easily pulling the packages from a build.



No disrespect Matthew, but this isn't fedora. On Enterprise Linux 
systems users expect long-established tools like 'yum/dnf downgrade' to 
just work, and when they don't, that's something that needs fixing. 
Users should not be expected to go rooting around on build systems 
trying to find old copies of packages to fix things that shouldn't have 
broken in the first place.






not to mention that such packages are not signed.

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future




On 12/15/20 10:31 AM, Jon Pruente wrote:

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 2:48 AM R C  wrote:


'Rocky Linux' guy might actually be on to something (although I'd pick
another distro name)


The name comes from his CentOS co-founder Rocky McGaugh, who is no longer
with us, in his memory.


I didn't know that fact, but hey that could be a pretty cool tribute.




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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

2020-12-15 Thread Peter Huebner

Am Dienstag, den 15.12.2020, 12:06 -0500 schrieb Matthew Miller:
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 01:48:21AM -0700, R C wrote:
> > I think that Centos, being that close to RHEL, should have had a
> > licensing scheme for personal use, small business use, just to make
> > things 'fair'.
> 
> So, again, please stay tuned. Not for licensing schemes for CentOS,
> but for
> programs for these use cases for RHEL. See
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q10
> and please really do mail centos-questi...@redhat.com with your use
> cases.
> This is answered by humans designing these programs, not by sales.
> 
But with the move of CentOS/RedHat to restrict the previously promised
support time for CentOS 8, they loose alot of trust in future
statements.
Trust must be earned and RedHat/CentOS/IBM has carelessly wasted that
trust.

> > I don't think their (IBM/RHEL) course is going to change though, 
> > redhat going "commercial" has been going on for a decade and a half
> > or so, and it looks like initial investors have a desire
> > cashing/selling out at this point.
> 
> I don't think there will be a course change either, but for different
> reasons. The motivation isn't "cashing/selling out". It's... actually
> the
> stated motivation
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q2
> 
> 
We will see, what happens in the future, but currently i cannot
recommend without serious doubt to trust RedHat in the long run.

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future




On 12/15/20 10:30 AM, Phelps, Matthew wrote:

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 12:24 PM Tom Bishop  wrote:


On Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 11:06 AM Matthew Miller  wrote:




I don't think there will be a course change either, but for different
reasons. The motivation isn't "cashing/selling out". It's... actually the
stated motivation
https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q2


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I know you and other RHEL folks keep saying this about cashing out etc, but
they could have kept stream and Centos stable at the same time but chose
not to. Ya know, if it walks like a duck and quacks as a duck...who knows
maybe this goes down as one of the best decisions ever for RH but I think
its going to hurt them in more ways then they ever thought about.
___


Not to mention the constant barrage of "You just want free Red Hat" and
"CentOS users are moochers" and "We deserve value from all those CentOS
users, so we're going to turn them into beta testers for RHEL." I have
gotten these responses here and on twitter from CentOS and Red Hat
employees.


Yup, a lot of "Centos Users" are the ones running and building for RHEL 
infrastructure, there's a lot more in it for IBM to take over RHEL than 
there is to take over Ubuntu, mint or build something new. The thought 
more than likely is "an established market is already out there".


I don't think that IBM is in the business of "Hey let's do something 
really nice, because we don't really need/want the money"





So, sorry, but this line about this not being a money grab is an obvious
crock of excrement.



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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future




On 12/15/20 10:24 AM, Tom Bishop wrote:

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 11:06 AM Matthew Miller  wrote:




I don't think there will be a course change either, but for different
reasons. The motivation isn't "cashing/selling out". It's... actually the
stated motivation
https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q2


--
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Fedora Project Leader
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I know you and other RHEL folks keep saying this about cashing out etc, but
they could have kept stream and Centos stable at the same time but chose
not to. Ya know, if it walks like a duck and quacks as a duck...who knows
maybe this goes down as one of the best decisions ever for RH but I think
its going to hurt them in more ways then they ever thought about.


I think you are exactly on target there with your thoughts. IBM looks 
after their investors and their customers, they never really cared about 
"personal computing" (pun intended), nor small business computing, and 
evidently, as history shows, suck at it when they made an attempt or two.




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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

2020-12-15 Thread Jon Pruente

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 2:48 AM R C  wrote:

> 'Rocky Linux' guy might actually be on to something (although I'd pick
> another distro name)
>

The name comes from his CentOS co-founder Rocky McGaugh, who is no longer
with us, in his memory.
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

2020-12-15 Thread Phelps, Matthew

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 12:24 PM Tom Bishop  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 11:06 AM Matthew Miller  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't think there will be a course change either, but for different
> > reasons. The motivation isn't "cashing/selling out". It's... actually the
> > stated motivation
> > https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q2
> >
> >
> > --
> > Matthew Miller
> > 
> > Fedora Project Leader
> > ___
> > CentOS mailing list
> > CentOS@centos.org
> > https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>
>
> I know you and other RHEL folks keep saying this about cashing out etc, but
> they could have kept stream and Centos stable at the same time but chose
> not to. Ya know, if it walks like a duck and quacks as a duck...who knows
> maybe this goes down as one of the best decisions ever for RH but I think
> its going to hurt them in more ways then they ever thought about.
> ___
>

Not to mention the constant barrage of "You just want free Red Hat" and
"CentOS users are moochers" and "We deserve value from all those CentOS
users, so we're going to turn them into beta testers for RHEL." I have
gotten these responses here and on twitter from CentOS and Red Hat
employees.

So, sorry, but this line about this not being a money grab is an obvious
crock of excrement.


-- 

*Matt Phelps*

*Information Technology Specialist, Systems Administrator*

(Computation Facility, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory)

Center for Astrophysics | Harvard & Smithsonian


60 Garden Street | MS 39 | Cambridge, MA 02138
email: mphe...@cfa.harvard.edu


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 | YouTube 
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

2020-12-15 Thread Tom Bishop

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020, 11:06 AM Matthew Miller  wrote:

>
>
>
> I don't think there will be a course change either, but for different
> reasons. The motivation isn't "cashing/selling out". It's... actually the
> stated motivation
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q2
>
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader
> ___
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> https://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

I know you and other RHEL folks keep saying this about cashing out etc, but
they could have kept stream and Centos stable at the same time but chose
not to. Ya know, if it walks like a duck and quacks as a duck...who knows
maybe this goes down as one of the best decisions ever for RH but I think
its going to hurt them in more ways then they ever thought about.
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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?


On 15/12/2020 17:13, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 05:09:39PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) 
Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:

3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package in 
Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken packages.

Really? I hadn't appreciated that.  How does one the contribute back to RH/the 
community by checking at what point something broke?


I don't know the answer here but it's a good point to raise. In Fedora, we
don't keep all updates on our mirrors either, but we _do_ make them
accessible forever from our build system
(https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/), and there's a command-line tool for
easily pulling the packages from a build.



No disrespect Matthew, but this isn't fedora. On Enterprise Linux 
systems users expect long-established tools like 'yum/dnf downgrade' to 
just work, and when they don't, that's something that needs fixing. 
Users should not be expected to go rooting around on build systems 
trying to find old copies of packages to fix things that shouldn't have 
broken in the first place.


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future



On 12/15/20 10:06 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 01:48:21AM -0700, R C wrote:

I think that Centos, being that close to RHEL, should have had a
licensing scheme for personal use, small business use, just to make
things 'fair'.

So, again, please stay tuned. Not for licensing schemes for CentOS, but for
programs for these use cases for RHEL. See 
https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q10
and please really do mail centos-questi...@redhat.com with your use cases.
This is answered by humans designing these programs, not by sales.


Oh I know, there are already programs like that. For example, want to 
learn how to play with Kubernetes, sure, here get a free full trial 
licence for RHEL to do that (but you can only get one.). Use cases; I 
think a lot of people using Centos do it, because they can easily/free 
build a server/workstation pretty much the same as at work, the only 
difference being the background being blue instead of red.


Sure, redhat might help these  "use cases" out, but that means you are 
accepting a gift from a company that has an interest in selling to your 
employer, and most employers will definitely not allow that and 
terminate those who do.


From what I understand, RHEL and Centos go different ways so a lot of 
"the community" will start looking for alternatives, and will find them. 
We'll see how it goes.


(the order of magnitude in increase of email on these lists, might be an 
indication about the quality of that idea.)





I don't think their (IBM/RHEL) course is going to change though,
redhat going "commercial" has been going on for a decade and a half
or so, and it looks like initial investors have a desire
cashing/selling out at this point.

I don't think there will be a course change either, but for different
reasons. The motivation isn't "cashing/selling out". It's... actually the
stated motivation
https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q2



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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

2020-12-15 Thread Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS

On 15/12/2020 17:09, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC 
(USA) via CentOS wrote:

On Dec 15, 2020, at 12:07 PM, Phil Perry  wrote:

3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package in 
Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken packages.


Really? I hadn't appreciated that.  How does one the contribute back to RH/the 
community by checking at what point something broke?


No idea. I assume it might be related to repository size, as once daily 
updates start flowing into Stream, repo size could get rather large 
rather quickly?


But it doesn't sit well being asked to test (and feedback) on testing 
packages with no way to roll back / downgrade when things break. 'dnf 
downgrade' isn't something I (thankfully) have to use often, but when 
you need it, it's a lifesaver. Seems like a regression to me.


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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

> On Dec 15, 2020, at 12:13 PM, Matthew Miller  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 05:09:39PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) 
> Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:
>>> 3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package 
>>> in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken 
>>> packages.
>> Really? I hadn't appreciated that.  How does one the contribute back to 
>> RH/the community by checking at what point something broke?
> 
> I don't know the answer here but it's a good point to raise. In Fedora, we
> don't keep all updates on our mirrors either, but we _do_ make them
> accessible forever from our build system
> (https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/), and there's a command-line tool for
> easily pulling the packages from a build.

It also makes my idea of reproducing RHEL point releases by just applying a 
selected subset much harder.  You have to regularly download everything, and 
create a local comprehensive repo.
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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 05:09:39PM +, Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) 
Washington DC (USA) via CentOS wrote:
> > 3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package 
> > in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken 
> > packages.
> Really? I hadn't appreciated that.  How does one the contribute back to 
> RH/the community by checking at what point something broke?

I don't know the answer here but it's a good point to raise. In Fedora, we
don't keep all updates on our mirrors either, but we _do_ make them
accessible forever from our build system
(https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/), and there's a command-line tool for
easily pulling the packages from a build.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

2020-12-15 Thread Bernstein, Noam CIV USN NRL (6393) Washington DC (USA) via CentOS

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 11:29:51PM +0800, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:
> Good day from Singapore,
> What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

CentOS Linux rebuilds packages after they are available from Red Hat as
errata or as minor release updates.

CentOS Stream will have updates approved for future RHEL minor releases
shipped as soon as they meet the criteria.

> At the moment, I only know that CentOS 8 support will end on 31 December
> 2021 while Red Hat Inc will shift its focus to CentOS Stream.

Yes.

> Is CentOS Stream going to be very similar to Fedora Linux, shipping with
> the latest Linux Kernel like 5.10.1?

No. It is going to be very similar to Red Hat Enterprise Linux, shipping
with kernel builds approved to ship in RHEL.

If you want a faster-moving kernel, Fedora CoreOS or Fedora Server might be
a good choice for you.

> I am looking forward to hearing from you.

Also see more at

* https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/centos-stream-is-continuous-delivery/
* https://blog.centos.org/2020/12/how-rhel-is-made/

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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

> On Dec 15, 2020, at 12:07 PM, Phil Perry  wrote:
> 
> 3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each package 
> in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back broken packages.

Really? I hadn't appreciated that.  How does one the contribute back to RH/the 
community by checking at what point something broke?
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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?


On 15/12/2020 15:29, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:

Good day from Singapore,

What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

At the moment, I only know that CentOS 8 support will end on 31 December
2021 while Red Hat Inc will shift its focus to CentOS Stream.

Is CentOS Stream going to be very similar to Fedora Linux, shipping with
the latest Linux Kernel like 5.10.1?



No. Stream kernel updates will be updates on the (current) path from 
RHEL8.3 -> RHEL8.4 so the base kernel will always be 4.18.0 (for Stream 
tracking RHEL8)



I am looking forward to hearing from you.

Thank you.




Some notable differences:

1. 5 Years support versus 10 years support on RHEL/CentOS Linux.

2. Kernel updates break 3rd party out-of-tree kernel drivers.

3. 'dnf downgrade foo' doesn't work as only latest/one copy of each 
package in Stream repository so no opportunity to downgrade/roll back 
broken packages.


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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 01:48:21AM -0700, R C wrote:
> I think that Centos, being that close to RHEL, should have had a
> licensing scheme for personal use, small business use, just to make
> things 'fair'.

So, again, please stay tuned. Not for licensing schemes for CentOS, but for
programs for these use cases for RHEL. See 
https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q10
and please really do mail centos-questi...@redhat.com with your use cases.
This is answered by humans designing these programs, not by sales.

> I don't think their (IBM/RHEL) course is going to change though, 
> redhat going "commercial" has been going on for a decade and a half
> or so, and it looks like initial investors have a desire
> cashing/selling out at this point.

I don't think there will be a course change either, but for different
reasons. The motivation isn't "cashing/selling out". It's... actually the
stated motivation
https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/faq-centos-stream-updates#Q2

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?



On 12/15/20 9:20 AM, Kevin K wrote:

As a bystander who just the other day saw this, no.  It doesn't appear that
it will be a bleeding edge kernel.  Just builds of the next kernel expected
to be in the next 8.X release.  So you are getting updated features
earlier, but maybe before all the known issues are resolved to a state
ready to be released in the main RH build.

For my work use of Red Hat, this all doesn't matter.  We license and pay
for many copies of RHEL.  It is only for home use that I've historically
used CentOS.  And even then I can get a personal license of RHEL.


I totally agree with that. I think that most of RedHat's success is 
because of 'open' Linux in general, and especially Centos in the last 
decade or however long it has been around.


What large companies don't seem to understand (except for a few) is that 
what is used in the workplace is what people that run that stuff know, 
and most of those are people that started with that as HS kids, or they 
have a degree in something unrelated, often an "online/make up degree.  
That might sound mean/bad, but that is the work force you have, that is 
what they use, so that is what companies/organizations/institutions will 
use, always been like that, will be like that for the foreseeable future.


Most of what runs companies/institutions  "IT stuff" have a few machines 
at home, I know enough sysadmins that have the previous model Dell 
servers, or the model before that, some EOL Cisco equipment, that is 
what they know very well to use, so that is what companies will be using 
too, including their choice of OS and software.


RHEL and Centos disappearing migh be a problem in the short term, a year 
or 2/3/4, but hey,  it only takes one hardware life cycle before a new 
badge of HS kids and college drop outs figured out what to use next (for 
free).


When was the last time a large company (think IBM, Sun, Novell Netware, 
Oracle) had a great idea to create or take over an OS, or a community 
only ending up in a situation that only almost killed them. (Yeah MS, 
but they figured out that giving it away for next to nothing for 
residential/educational use is actually securing their market share in 
commercial/government/Education etc etc etc.)


The only times something became really popular, and useful for "the 
industry" is when it is was for free for personal use (or was included 
with the hardware, there are/were countless examples), because that is 
what the people working in it, programmers, sysadmins etc., do, use the 
free stuff ..   take it to work, get promotions and a raises for their 
good ideas. In fact, that is how Linux/Redhat became a success to begin 
with.


Personal licenses, sure,  but what IT guy is going to get 4-5 $500 a pop 
a year licenses just because it is the same as at work? (And...  what 
about all the online forums etc? that are free to use) Redhat might 
think about giving "those" away for free..  BUT most large companies, 
and for sure government, does not allow their employees to accept 
'gifts'  for more then a few ($10-15) a year.  So that won't fly either.


my 2 cts,


Ron



On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 9:29 AM Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming <
teoenming.dec2...@gmail.com> wrote:


Good day from Singapore,

What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

At the moment, I only know that CentOS 8 support will end on 31 December
2021 while Red Hat Inc will shift its focus to CentOS Stream.

Is CentOS Stream going to be very similar to Fedora Linux, shipping with
the latest Linux Kernel like 5.10.1?

I am looking forward to hearing from you.

Thank you.


-BEGIN EMAIL SIGNATURE-

The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs):

[The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of
U.S. Embassy Workers

Link:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html




Singaporean Targeted Individual Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's
Academic
Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the
United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017), in Taiwan (5 Aug
2019) and Australia (25 Dec 2019 to 9 Jan 2020):

[1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/

[2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/

[3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming

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Re: [CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

2020-12-15 Thread Kevin K

As a bystander who just the other day saw this, no.  It doesn't appear that
it will be a bleeding edge kernel.  Just builds of the next kernel expected
to be in the next 8.X release.  So you are getting updated features
earlier, but maybe before all the known issues are resolved to a state
ready to be released in the main RH build.

For my work use of Red Hat, this all doesn't matter.  We license and pay
for many copies of RHEL.  It is only for home use that I've historically
used CentOS.  And even then I can get a personal license of RHEL.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 9:29 AM Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming <
teoenming.dec2...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Good day from Singapore,
>
> What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?
>
> At the moment, I only know that CentOS 8 support will end on 31 December
> 2021 while Red Hat Inc will shift its focus to CentOS Stream.
>
> Is CentOS Stream going to be very similar to Fedora Linux, shipping with
> the latest Linux Kernel like 5.10.1?
>
> I am looking forward to hearing from you.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> -BEGIN EMAIL SIGNATURE-
>
> The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs):
>
> [The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of
> U.S. Embassy Workers
>
> Link:
> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html
>
>
> 
>
> Singaporean Targeted Individual Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's
> Academic
> Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the
> United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017), in Taiwan (5 Aug
> 2019) and Australia (25 Dec 2019 to 9 Jan 2020):
>
> [1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/
>
> [2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/
>
> [3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming
>
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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

2020-12-15 Thread Ruslanas Gžibovskis

I think Peter have already spent some time and read around agreement and so
on. So the price is understandable. And really, everyone need to keep in
mind that anyone can change their licence any time.

If You ask personally me, Matti, I do not see point using oracleLinux if
can use Rocky/fedora out of cost. Same as I do not see any point in using
any derivative of Debian if you just can add additional repo and install
missing package...

CentOS was free of charge RedHat Flag. And now their banner/flag do not
look so trustful in free area... I still would trust paid version,
especially when there is no-cost licence. Also you can connect to RH sales
and get real goood discounts. If you are a small business in small country.

But free flag is in uncertain situation.

And I have been working with UBK or how is shortened their unbreakable
kernel... No good ;)) we managed to break it ;)) and recover DB.

If you really want you always can just look at config file how kernel is
made and rebuild it with your additions or exactly same in exact same
place. Also take additional blobs and place them where you need... if
needed. But you need to understand if that all you really need? Maybe you
just need to shorten tcp.fin_wait to 1 sec ;) and it will work as a charm
even with 2.6.18... with all unneeded options off, such as kernel modules,
usb, sata123...

You just need to:
su -c 'echo "1" > /proc/enable/brain'

Without this module either OS will work.

And choosing OS is like choosing your partner, you need to understand, for
how long you have same path and why your partner did that move, did partner
prepared all that you would have all cases covered with new WoW...

Thanks

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020, 16:52 Matti Pulkkinen,  wrote:

> Ruslanas Gžibovskis kirjoitti 15.12.2020 klo 11.14:
> > Legal and "can do" are 2 different things. ;)
>
> As someone who is considering moving to OL, I wonder if you could
> elaborate clearly on what specific concerns you have, without the
> insinuation and analogy? Oracle's proposition [1] seems pretty
> straightforward to me.
>
> [1] https://linux.oracle.com/switch/centos/
>
> --
> Terveisin / Regards,
> Matti Pulkkinen
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[CentOS] What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

2020-12-15 Thread Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming

Good day from Singapore,

What are the differences between CentOS Linux and CentOS Stream?

At the moment, I only know that CentOS 8 support will end on 31 December
2021 while Red Hat Inc will shift its focus to CentOS Stream.

Is CentOS Stream going to be very similar to Fedora Linux, shipping with
the latest Linux Kernel like 5.10.1?

I am looking forward to hearing from you.

Thank you.


-BEGIN EMAIL SIGNATURE-

The Gospel for all Targeted Individuals (TIs):

[The New York Times] Microwave Weapons Are Prime Suspect in Ills of
U.S. Embassy Workers

Link:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-microwave.html



Singaporean Targeted Individual Mr. Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming's
Academic
Qualifications as at 14 Feb 2019 and refugee seeking attempts at the
United Nations Refugee Agency Bangkok (21 Mar 2017), in Taiwan (5 Aug
2019) and Australia (25 Dec 2019 to 9 Jan 2020):

[1] https://tdtemcerts.wordpress.com/

[2] https://tdtemcerts.blogspot.sg/

[3] https://www.scribd.com/user/270125049/Teo-En-Ming

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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

2020-12-15 Thread Matti Pulkkinen


Ruslanas Gžibovskis kirjoitti 15.12.2020 klo 11.14:

Legal and "can do" are 2 different things. ;)


As someone who is considering moving to OL, I wonder if you could 
elaborate clearly on what specific concerns you have, without the 
insinuation and analogy? Oracle's proposition [1] seems pretty 
straightforward to me.


[1] https://linux.oracle.com/switch/centos/

--
Terveisin / Regards,
Matti Pulkkinen
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Re: [CentOS] The conclusio: CentOS is dead

2020-12-15 Thread Simon Matter

> Il 14/12/20 23:47, Ruslanas Gžibovskis ha scritto:
>> your suggestions?
>
> It is the debian family time man. I'm converting many stuff to debian
> buster and some on Ubuntu LTS 20.04.
>
> Would be great if FreeBSD will be largely adopted now.

FreeBSD becomes more and more my favorite now:

- it feels closer to EL6 and more home to me than any newer Linux (except
Devuan and the like).
- doesn't have systemd and all the other new stuff :-)
- is stable and has a friendly community
- has ZFS
- is very _well_ documented!

Ok, I came from a UNIX background before Linux was born so I got much used
to the UNIX way.

Have been toying with FreeBSD and other BSDs for years but it's more
likely than ever that I'll make the switch now.

Regards,
Simon

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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

2020-12-15 Thread Peter Huebner

Am Dienstag, den 15.12.2020, 10:14 +0100 schrieb Ruslanas Gžibovskis:
> GPL stuff applies only to GPL parts, but they can have Oracle blob in
> everything. The same time, TM's and so on...
According to the Oracle license terms and official statements, it is
"free to download, use and share. There is no license cost, no need for
a contract, and no usage audits."
Recommendation only: "For business-critical infrastructure, consider
Oracle Linux Support." Only optional, not a mandatory requirement.
see: https://www.oracle.com/linux


> Also For example, according to RH license. You can install evaluation
> Version every month on your development system, where sysadmin
> develops a
> platform for the developer, but as soon when this platform is ready,
> it is
> a production system, but no-one will come to you and check, is it
> really
> still under development or it is already prod platform, which is
> rebuilt
> every 3 weeks with jerkins job... (yes, Mr. Jerkins) :)
> 
No need for such a construct. Oracle Linux can be used on any
production system without the legal requirement to obtain a extra
commercial license. Same as in CentOS.

> Legal and "can do" are 2 different things. ;)
So Oracle Linux can be used free as in "free-beer" currently for any
system, even for commercial purposes. Nevertheless, Oracle can change
that license terms in the future, but this applies as well to all other
company-backed linux distributions.
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Re: [CentOS] The conclusio: CentOS is dead

2020-12-15 Thread Alessandro Baggi


Il 14/12/20 23:47, Ruslanas Gžibovskis ha scritto:

your suggestions?


It is the debian family time man. I'm converting many stuff to debian 
buster and some on Ubuntu LTS 20.04.


Would be great if FreeBSD will be largely adopted now.

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Re: [CentOS] I'm looking forward to the future of CentOS Stream

2020-12-15 Thread Anthony K


On 13/12/20 7:15 pm, Nicolas Kovacs wrote:

Le 11/12/2020 à 02:25, Gordon Messmer a écrit :

Personally, I think that changing focus on CentOS Stream is going to make
CentOS (and maybe even RHEL) better in the same way and for the same reasons
that Fedora is a better distribution than Red Hat Linux was.

Using Fedora on production servers is like climbing without a rope.


I like that analogy - Free Solo *[0]* - here I come.

*[0]* - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Solo
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Re: [CentOS] I'm looking forward to the future of CentOS Stream

2020-12-15 Thread Anthony K


On 14/12/20 6:56 am, Gordon Messmer wrote:

On 12/13/20 2:45 AM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:

When people are happy with something they do not voice their content on
the mailing list, mailing list is only to voice your discontent. You
heard about "silent majority", right? Ever though why it is called that?



So, the majority of users are silent, because they're happy? Cool.

Not because they are happy, but rather because they've most likely moved 
on.  The best protest is carried by moving feet.


I ditched CEntOS for Uuntu back in 2016 and haven't looked back. I only 
have one last machine still running CEntOS - the firewall. When that 
EOL's, mine will be a 100% Ubuntu shop.  But, not knowing what would 
happen to Canonical in the future, I've also started toying with Arch 
and FreeBSD...


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Re: [CentOS] Is Oracle a real alternative to Centos?

2020-12-15 Thread Ruslanas Gžibovskis

GPL stuff applies only to GPL parts, but they can have Oracle blob in
everything. The same time, TM's and so on...

Do you know how one of the biggest cases with torrents and MS products was
won against guys who shared it? Because MS TM was used incorrect way,
sharing ISO files of ALL MS projects and an executable which generates
random codes, accidentally fit to MS producs... is not a problem, but
having an MS TM Logo is the "problem"... :D

Same in Oracle stuff.

Also For example, according to RH license. You can install evaluation
Version every month on your development system, where sysadmin develops a
platform for the developer, but as soon when this platform is ready, it is
a production system, but no-one will come to you and check, is it really
still under development or it is already prod platform, which is rebuilt
every 3 weeks with jerkins job... (yes, Mr. Jerkins) :)

Legal and "can do" are 2 different things. ;)

And thanks Nikolas for keeping my advice in mind ;) much appreciated ;)
hope you will use it wisely ;)

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 00:12, Nicolas Kovacs  wrote:

> Le 14/12/2020 à 23:18, Ruslanas Gžibovskis a écrit :
> > Just in case, as the third author linked, read the Licence Agreement,
> > everything will be there.
>
> Since Red Hat source code is mostly GPL, the same thing applies to Oracle
> Linux.
>
> >
> > And a small remark:
> > Even if you can take a knife in a shopping mall and stab with it anyone
> > within the same shopping mall, does not say that it is legal. But you
> can,
> > Please do not try it in anywhere! well if you have no brain and
> interested
> > in trying it...
>
> We will keep your advice in mind.
>
> :o)
>
> --
> Microlinux - Solutions informatiques durables
> 7, place de l'église - 30730 Montpezat
> Site : https://www.microlinux.fr
> Blog : https://blog.microlinux.fr
> Mail : i...@microlinux.fr
> Tél. : 04 66 63 10 32
> Mob. : 06 51 80 12 12
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>

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Re: [CentOS] The conclusio: CentOS is dead

On 12/15/20 2:05 AM, Ruslanas Gžibovskis wrote:

Oracle Linux, only after Oracle Solaris will shine again with their awesome
SPARC arch... Which has an amazing features...

Solaris tried to take over the "Sunos/bsd status quo", that was a
disaster, it was a good idea but licensing killed it.

Nice, I did not check Devuan for a long time, if they still alive...
hmm, I have hope in Rocky then, but would be more fun if guys do not just
scrap everything fast into distro, and then, k, how do we work with it
now...
I believe Rocky will be a good thing, but hope other projects will merge
into it instead of building their own. Even if everyone of us want to build
our own :D

I think that 'Rocky idea' has some potential.

But still, after this move, I do not have the same trust in RH as it was
previously.

Do you, People, still have a stone-proof trust in RH after last week's news?

Centos and RH are dead, well in a hopeless coma for now. It's IBM,
Torvalds' Linux almost killed off IBM, Oracle, Novell and did a lot of
'damage' to MS in that market, IBM is still a dinosaur with the same
70's brain capacity, it won't be able to pull it off even if they had a
monopoly on OS' in general.

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 09:56, R C wrote:

On 12/15/20 1:32 AM, Nicolas Kovacs wrote:

Le 15/12/2020 à 08:17, Nikolaos Milas a écrit :

My course of action is to wait for Lenix (Ref.:

https://blog.cloudlinux.com/announcing-open-sourced-community-driven-rhel-fork-by-cloudlinux
)

and Rocky Linux (https://rockylinux.org/) by CentOS original founder.

Right now Rocky Linux is not much more than a README file on Github.

That is how Linus Torvalds started. be careful
underestimating/ridiculing talent.

On the other hand, Oracle Linux has been a well-tended free-as-in-beer

RHEL

clone with some nifty extra features for the last 14 years.

Wozu in die Ferne schweifen, wenn das Gute liegt so nah? (Goethe)

:o)

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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

2020-12-15 Thread Thomas Bendler

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 9:18 AM Patrick Bégou <
patrick.be...@legi.grenoble-inp.fr> wrote:

> I'm also using CentOS for a while and I'm deploying a CentOS8 cluster
> for some months because it was supported until 2029! Bad idea.
> For me, using debian has 2 important drawbacks
> - some of proprietary software we are using is certified RHEL and SLES.
> Deploying on CentOS is out-of-thebox. Deploying on debian (we have also
> debian servers) is often a nightmare and some functionalities still
> doesn't work (and support reply "debian is not supported"). We have no
> alternative for these softwares.
> [...]

If you have to deal with proprietary software, OEL is currently the only
cost-free
option you have (if an RHEL clone is wanted). The advantage with OEL is that
most proprietary software supports OEL out-of-the-box, you don't have to do
"naming" tricks to run software like SAP.

Switching to OEL is quite easy (https://github.com/oracle/centos2ol) and the
same method could be used to switch to something else if better options are
available.

Kind regards Thomas
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Re: [CentOS] The conclusio: CentOS is dead

2020-12-15 Thread Ruslanas Gžibovskis

Oracle Linux, only after Oracle Solaris will shine again with their awesome
SPARC arch... Which has an amazing features...

Nice, I did not check Devuan for a long time, if they still alive...
hmm, I have hope in Rocky then, but would be more fun if guys do not just
scrap everything fast into distro, and then, k, how do we work with it
now...
I believe Rocky will be a good thing, but hope other projects will merge
into it instead of building their own. Even if everyone of us want to build
our own :D

But still, after this move, I do not have the same trust in RH as it was
previously.

Do you, People, still have a stone-proof trust in RH after last week's news?

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 09:56, R C  wrote:

>
> On 12/15/20 1:32 AM, Nicolas Kovacs wrote:
> > Le 15/12/2020 à 08:17, Nikolaos Milas a écrit :
> >> My course of action is to wait for Lenix (Ref.:
> >>
> https://blog.cloudlinux.com/announcing-open-sourced-community-driven-rhel-fork-by-cloudlinux
> )
> >> and Rocky Linux (https://rockylinux.org/) by CentOS original founder.
> > Right now Rocky Linux is not much more than a README file on Github.
>
>
> That is how Linus Torvalds started.   be careful
> underestimating/ridiculing talent.
>
>
> >
> > On the other hand, Oracle Linux has been a well-tended free-as-in-beer
> RHEL
> > clone with some nifty extra features for the last 14 years.
> >
> > Wozu in die Ferne schweifen, wenn das Gute liegt so nah? (Goethe)
> >
> > :o)
> >
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future

2020-12-15 Thread Ljubomir Ljubojevic

On 12/15/20 9:48 AM, R C wrote:
> The only thing RHEL can 'bank on' in the near future is that there is
> nothing else around yet. (but problems like these never lasted long in
> the past)

Springdale made by Princeton exists longer then CentOS:
https://puias.math.ias.edu/

They have "network" CD ISO for 8.1 and boot.iso for 8.3.


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(Love is in the Air)
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Re: [CentOS] The conclusio: CentOS is dead



On 12/15/20 1:32 AM, Nicolas Kovacs wrote:

Le 15/12/2020 à 08:17, Nikolaos Milas a écrit :

My course of action is to wait for Lenix (Ref.:
https://blog.cloudlinux.com/announcing-open-sourced-community-driven-rhel-fork-by-cloudlinux)
and Rocky Linux (https://rockylinux.org/) by CentOS original founder.

Right now Rocky Linux is not much more than a README file on Github.



That is how Linus Torvalds started.   be careful 
underestimating/ridiculing talent.





On the other hand, Oracle Linux has been a well-tended free-as-in-beer RHEL
clone with some nifty extra features for the last 14 years.

Wozu in die Ferne schweifen, wenn das Gute liegt so nah? (Goethe)

:o)


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Re: [CentOS] The conclusio: CentOS is dead

2020-12-15 Thread Ljubomir Ljubojevic

On 12/15/20 9:32 AM, Nicolas Kovacs wrote:
> Le 15/12/2020 à 08:17, Nikolaos Milas a écrit :
>>
>> My course of action is to wait for Lenix (Ref.:
>> https://blog.cloudlinux.com/announcing-open-sourced-community-driven-rhel-fork-by-cloudlinux)
>> and Rocky Linux (https://rockylinux.org/) by CentOS original founder.
> 
> Right now Rocky Linux is not much more than a README file on Github.
> 
> On the other hand, Oracle Linux has been a well-tended free-as-in-beer RHEL
> clone with some nifty extra features for the last 14 years.
> 
> Wozu in die Ferne schweifen, wenn das Gute liegt so nah? (Goethe)
> 
> :o)
> 
Springdale is also already available: https://puias.math.ias.edu/

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(Love is in the Air)
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StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant
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Re: [CentOS] CentOS 8 future